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Why should the plan reach a non-existence? Lucifer just wanted to take shelter somewhere outside the influence of the plan. Randomness occurs according to Yahweh's will. Anything may be out of his reach, but he still pulls the strings.
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
- Start date
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- Tags
- dc comics
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Please do not try to conflate the mainstream and vertigo continuums. Silver city is beyond not only the material plane but also the metaphysical realms beyond them and treats them like child's play. Lucifer didn't get weaker, he just enjoyed having others set their sights on his throne and watching the poor demons who tried to achieve that goal fail. He was bored in hell. You know how you made fun of Etrigan?
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The Source Wall is context dependent. If a character from the Godsphere destroyed a wall in the Sog, then it will only be a wall from the Sog. Do you understand? This does not give the peak of cosmology. This is not Vertigo cosmology, this is Dc cosmology
Yahweh is unknown. Lucifer, yes, as a puppet of the Great Darkness, he is stronger than Darkseid
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This is an invention of a personal plot, or fan fiction
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Provide official evidence that Vertigo and DC are different universes. This guidebook combines both Dc and Vertigo. The Silver City cannot be outside all spheres, it was attacked by Apokolips
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That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo.
What did you say that about?
Lucifer is not a puppet of TGD and is much more powerful than Darkesid no matter what form he takes.
They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.
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I will evaluate these stories for the Spiritual Cosmology later, but i'm pretty sure that if we could combine different authors' stories to make the Crisis Cosmology (I.e. Post-Final Crisis & Multiversity Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson, and Geoff Johns), we could surely do the same for J.M. DeMatteis' contributions since other writers' works are consistent with DeMatteis's, at least with those whose differences are either minor or not relevant enough to separate them.
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Separation for fictitious reasons. Aleph appeared before Vertigo, and Darkseid knows about them, as well as about the Cabal. Why can't I? The official map and guidebooks have already done everything for me.
Because I don’t like it when people try to reconstruct the text written in a comic in their own way. I don't mean anything rude
Why isn't it? The new comics quite show a change in chronology, where the Great Darkness is no longer his avatar. No, not stronger, rather, it is difficult to establish an exact balance of power between them, in basic forms
Sandman appeared in Dc. Destiny (Endless) appeared in DC in '72. A lot of Vertigo characters appeared before Flashpoint. Vertigo characters have appeared in DC guidebooks. In fact, there are no official statements that Vertigo is a separate universe, with the exception of fan-made ones. But the fan's opinion is lower than the author or publisher
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Thank you for responding, BTW can you provide a list of comics brought?
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I am saying that the two definitions are very different. Both are things with different terminology.
You cannot say that what I say is independent of the text. Everyone can make different inferences by looking at the texts, and my ideas are the most logical interpretation that can be drawn from the text. The same goes for you. You interpret this in your own way.
As I said, she is not the True Morningstar, she is specifically imitating her. DC doesn't progress in a linear chronology anyway. In dreaming, it is transformed by dreams, resets and crises that change the course of creation. Tyler confirmed this. Even Darkesid's true form is no match for Lucifer. He owes his existence to Lucifer.
Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.
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Storylines that were not previously associated with DC comics can be separate, but not those that have been correlated with each other since the 20th century...
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Alephs?
I use only what the author writes, without my personal interpretations of the meaning.
This is not known for sure. It follows that in the Dark Crisis it was confirmed that all the events of the Crises and other global events occurred
The fact that Vertigo was closed does not negate their presence in the plots of old or new comics. Nobody is saying that you need to put everything on top of each other, it is better to use things that are interconnected. But it was also stated that everything in DC is canon
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Fictional universes are generally not suitable for this wiki, unless they are written specifically for it. But something doesn’t stop anyone from making cosmologies and profiles on this wiki
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We don't create cosmologies based on centuries, my friend. We only combine those that are most closely related to each other. And these are unrelated continuities.
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Yeaps.
Okey.
The relationship between Lucifer and the Great Darkness is very blurry, but the second issue is a clear one.
It doesn't really matter. As I said, you can use the expression "comp dc" outside of this site, but for the purpose of this wiki, what you say is irrelevant.
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BL contain Sandman universe and I mean it. I have no idea what are u talking about else.
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I don't have much at the moment.
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Its looks like you haven't read Lucifer [2018] or don't understand the comic storyline.
You have always insisted that Yahweh is the original presence, even though the two are different.
•The presence is the same as the source, it is outside the source wall [Here]. Meaning that all-creation in the greater omniverse, including the underworld, is part of him
•Yahweh is omnipotent only in his domain, because his plans do not reach void yama [underworld]. If he was truly almighty, then that place wouldn't be a problem for his plans
•You mention that Yahweh is eternal and infinite, but you ignore external forces, He is eternal because humans worship him, he is infinite because humans think so, he is the god of his creation, this concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the god.
•in other god realms, they have their own gods.
•You think Yahweh is the creator of everything, but He is limited to His creation. You ignore all the evidence I provide with that nonsensical logic
Did you read the 2000 Lucifer comic? Hasn't it been explained several times that there are other creations out there, not only Yahweh is considered god, but most other religious concepts also have their own creator god? [Here]
Silkman is also not part of Yahweh's creation, this clearly shows that Yahweh is finite while the presence is infinite.
Yahweh's creation was not perfect, even though his creation was only a silver city and the physical world, therefore he needed elaine belloc to repair the creation, which was intended to be the physical world, because what was removed was the physical world. [Here]
Yahweh is omniscient?
•The book of destiny knows everything and is a gift from father time
•There are other pantheons with their own creator gods
You cannot deny the facts that I convey, the presence/the source/the overvoid existed before father time, father time existed before destiny, dreams existed before the gods including Yahweh and other gods.
It made sense that destiny said "I existed before the first god", because he existed before the dream of the endless existed.
Perpetua is the first creator and exists beyond the 5th dimension, The original presence existed before the first creation, where there was father time and mother night.
No one escapes death, they only slow death but do not avoid it, he couldn't save his child from death.
The hierarchy is not wrong, everything is correct based on what I explained
#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]
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Alright but are you also going to bring material comics from some Animal man and Doom patrol?. Sorry to bother you again.
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Anything that can be used. The sorting will come later with what does and doesn't enough fit DeMatteis' stories.
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Alright I see what you mean, whatever that I will still wait patiently if you are willing to make a thread.
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If you would like to help me for the Spiritual Cosmology by providing any comic book titles or notable information/scans, you are more than welcome.
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No problem, I will try my best to providing information/scans that can be helpful for spiritual cosmology work.If you would like to help me for the Spiritual Cosmology by providing any comic book titles or notable information/scans, you are more than welcome.
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Thank you! You can post on my message wall with any scans or notable information it you want.No problem, I will try my best to providing information/scans that can be helpful for spiritual cosmology work.
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Alright if that's what you want if I can't provide more information on your thread.
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The Source Wall in the comic Metronome represented the same thing as in the comic with Lucifer, Aleph. The Source Wall was presented there as the end of creation.
This is a very strange thing
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Everything is basically correct, except that the supreme being is called the Unknowable
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You still don't understand what I mean...
Yahweh and Lucifer operate in their lower manifestations. Lucifers avatar in 2018. I talk about True Lucifer and True Yahweh and have never connected them to Presence.
I did not say otherwise, on the contrary I emphasized this many times. Even though the Yahweh of 2018 is portrayed as omnipotent, he is dependent on Lucifer. Getting the plan there is no problem, it has never been a problem. What we see in Lucifer Vol 1 is that Yahweh does not need Lucifer and can easily destroy him just as he created him. This situation changes completely in Vol 3.
The phrase "infinite and eternal" really indicates that it is beginningless. He always existed, people changed him, Lucifer and the history of creation with their dreams. In Lucifer Vol 1, there are creators before him, but since he is infinite, his true self is one with the Void, and the dreams deemed him worthy of Godhood itself. Stop talking about creation as the physical world, you're practically declaring that you haven't read the series.
There are things that are left out of the book of destiny. There are things Delirium knows that are not in the book. The book doesn't actually include everything. The extents of Night and Time are extensions of Lucifer's will. Existing before something does not indicate a clear superiority of power.
Lucifer cannot resist Death after he dies, but he can never truly die. Even if he dies, he comes back to maintain duality. Much more powerful than Endless, he can destroy them. I agree that Yahweh represents a higher being.
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This is confirmed by official sources
In the nothingness after what came before, a power later
known as both the Source and the Presence sparks the Big
Bang that creates the universe. Attempts to study creation
by a future scientist named Krona interfere with the mo-
ment of creation, shattering what would have been a sin-
gle universe into a multiverse, as well as a parallel antimat-
ter universe. Tachyons projected by Krona create entropy,
evil, and chaos where none would have existed, through
all of eternity. The newly divided light and dark aspects
of the multiverse become personified with the creation of
the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor, powerful beings of the
matter and antimatter universes whose conflict lasts until
the present era.
In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.
For most of history, those that believed they
knew the most about the Source Wall in Earth’s universe,
The New Gods, thought that the wall provided a sanctu-
ary behind which existed the Source, a cosmic conscious-
ness they equated with the Presence or the creator entity
behind the cosmos itself.
The truth of creation is unknowable
Though the full truth of the time before the beginning of the universe is unknowable, there are events that are said to
have occurred. The New Gods of Apokalips and New Genesis tell that this was the time of the First World and then the
Second World, when the Old Gods of the Godworld watched over the adventures of the first hero, Aurakles. During this
period, the first of the forces known as the Endless also came into being.
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As you said that the Silver City is part of the multiverse, but it is not, which is confirmed by the DC guidebook
Heaven itself is an afterworld, home to the souls of those
who died deserving of paradise as their eternal reward
for whatever righteous and courageous lives they may
have led. The Silver City is not home to these spirits and
is distinctly not the same as Heaven. The Silver City is a
physical outpost used by the hosts of Heaven when deal-
ing with mortal creation and it exists outside (or “above”)
creation. Mortals reputedly couldn’t survive contact with
even its mere environment as only spirit is able to survive
such sights and sounds. It is home base to the four hosts
that serve the Presence, the great angelic armies of the
Bull Host, the Eagle Host, the Lion Host, and the Host of
Man (or Guardian Angels)
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There definitely are ties between DeMatteis' works and Morrison's continuity wise, as well as a couple other connections you can make.
This thread seems a bit cluttered with discussions as is, but feel free to message me if you're curious what I'm talking about.
This thread seems a bit cluttered with discussions as is, but feel free to message me if you're curious what I'm talking about.
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I never said Silver City was part of the multiverse, but rather emphasized that it was not part of created things and was not the same as heaven. In the Lucifer series, Silver City is also referred to as heaven, but it is still not part of created things or has the true scope of heaven. A place where God's throne and his divine word are located. Silver City clearly transcends creation. And their interpretations of Silver City, later or current, are nowhere near Mike and Neil's and are grossly distorted.
Anyway, as I said, composite hierarchy should never come into effect on this wiki. I say the same thing for other verses. Only very close studies can be combined.
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The guidebook says the same thing.
And guidebook
Is it written somewhere that the Silver City of Cary is located outside of all Dc? I definitely haven't seen anything like this. Why do you interpret it this way and not as outside the physical multiverse? Why should this particular interpretation be correct? The guidebook erased these contradictions and left the same description as the authors did in their comics. If someone says that a certain structure is superior to a given hierarchical structure in the past, and new information is given that this structure has become inferior to the structure that it was superior to, then the more recent information will be used.
The SOG was introduced later in the chronology, but Darkseid and the other gods have existed in it since the beginning of DC cosmology. Do you understand? Introducing new things later does not cancel out something old.
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Some of Morrison's old stories certainly have ties to DeMatteis' contributions.
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Based on the discussions here, I did not see any contradictions between the cosmologies of these authors...
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We have already discussed this and explained the reason earlier in the discussion.
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Can you provide scans/images to support your opinion?
Lucifer with lower manifestations? Are you serious? it was never stated that way.
Vishnu says he never met lucifer without wings, according to him lucifer without wings is just an avatar.[Here] but that's the real lucifer, this is the real avatar of lucifer [Here] and after entering the void he regained his wings [Here], [Here], [Here], [Here] and [Here].
He is infinite and eternal because he was formed by external forces [Here], he originally existed because he was formed by human thoughts[Here], the pure energy, gods born in the dreaming realm is not from the void [Here], unless you can prove it. even if it is true, it also means nothing because the void is not only that and everything [sphere of the gods] only exists in a perpetua creation.
Without external forces they are weak and hungry
Here, Here, Here, Here
The physical world is erased bro, they discuss about the physical world which they call creation, The silver city was also part of Yahweh's creation but what was omitted was the physical world:
Here, Here, Here.
Behind creation there is Void [Here] after that elaine belloc went to the silver city to recreate creation, meaning the silver city was not obliterated [Here].
The void is beyond the physical world and also beyond the metaphysical world, because there was creation before Yahweh [Here]
I don't remember about delirium, you equate night and time as physical manifestations? it is an abstract concept beyond the physical, even Lucifer is bound by the rules of destiny book.
All gods [Here] experience the cycle of life and death, even dream and destiny also experience it, all die [the sphere of the gods and the physical world] except death [Here],[Here], [Here], [Here]
Meaning they are not really dead, Lucifer knew it was impossible to avoid death, they only slowed it down [Here] he also killed silkman.
You can prevent death by limiting her power, even wizards once wanted to do that but all they caught was morpheus
Yahweh is limited to His creation
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It could be that The Unknowable is a creature like the hands and cosmic raptor races, located outside the source wall
