General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Xearesay]

the presence is the source
source>sphere of gods so you're wrong here..for the 9999th time

No he’s not. If we only look at that one statement from Death Metal in a vacuum and ignore everything else than sure. However, obviously that wouldn’t be an honest thing to do. Thankfully, It was already clarified before in an interview that the Presence is just an aspect of a grander creator, with the Source being a less manifest creator God than the Presence. And this makes perfect sense when we take a moment to actually recognize the Presence’s consistent depiction as not this ineffable boundless energy outside of the whole cosmology, but simply the boring looking monopoly man that sometimes appears as a dog, lives in the Silver City within the Multiverse, and is not even powerful enough to kill beings from humanities Collective Unconscious.

So actually you’re the one who’s wrong here.

 

[Averroes1]

True though, coming from someone who likes the Vertigo guys.

 

[Xearesay]

True though, coming from someone who likes the Vertigo guys.

I like the Vertigo characters too actually, and when it comes to The Presence I actually like the way DC treats him. He’s like this boring God that moves in mysterious ways. People worship him, the angels serve him, but deep beneath the surface, when you look at him from the perspective of characters that aren’t severely weaker than him, you realize that the image he has of being this ultimate good isn’t really true. And that many of the beings who don’t like him, don’t even have an actual reason to be afraid of him since he can’t even kill them. Ex) Blight and monsieur stigmonous. These types of characters don’t like him for what he does, represents, and the impact he has on people. And this different perspective reflects a lot of what we see going on in reality today.

 

[Excellence616]

Captain Atom>Firestorm scaling.

Currently, we have two fights for Captain Atom and Firestorm, but they actually fought a third time. Their second meeting and fight is Fury of Firestorm #63. This is where we get the infamous scan of Firestorm breaking his hand on Captain Atom's face. We also get Cap stating he's faster than...

vsbattles.com

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Do you have any proof of them being stated outside of the source?

Lucifer went to Aleph to see the pocket reality created Sandalphon and the whereabouts of his captive Michael. Silver City is completely separated from creation through the void. The abyss is what surrounds heaven. He has a nature of utter contempt for all the rest of creation in Silver City, but Lucifer couldn't or didn't want to go there. He can't go to Silence anyway, it was clear that even his footsteps would destroy and erase this entire realm. Even if we position them under the aleph, it is obvious that they have a structure similar to the Sixth Dimension. Not in terms of power.

Edges of the universe? Like this? [Here]
Wow braniac level [Here]
I mean, the source you mean is the boundary of the universe in the multiverse, by crossing it we can know that he will see a different world from the multiverse.

The Aleph is the boundary of everything, not just the multiverse. And beyond is the Source.

There are various kinds of voids, if you want to say the void in lucifer 2000, then it describes the void outside of creation. physical world? Yes, Silver City? maybe, it is just a creation in Yahweh's domain, but not the underworld or other. Because in the gods of other religions, there is a sea of brahma, a void outside the plan of Yahweh [Here]

I leave Black Label completely out of my comments. Even if it were not so, the sea of Brahma is a nothingness underlying everything. Yahweh's plan only covers creation, and there are some elements that violate his reach. Like Lucifer hiding Sycorax from God's all-seeing eye, for example. Lucifer also traveled to other underworlds. He was clearly far superior to them and even destroyed some of them.

As I said, the Sphere was designed for the Gods. Lucifer can destroy the Book of Souls, which covers all dimensions in the Map of Multiverse, at will. If we were to base the series, Lucifer is the Great Darkness itself, and if we were to compare it with other series, it would be Lucifer > Source and Overvoid? We cannot allow creating a hierarchy and cosmology with irrelevant interpretations.

The concept of gods/archetypes that humans worship does not exist in the higher plane like 6th dimension, 5th dimension, monitor sphere or the overvoid

Yeah.

Only in the sphere of the gods [this is also a higher plane, but the world above it does not apply the concept of gods that humans worship].

It should not be forgotten that SOG is the source of all magic in creation, or one of the energies of the Source. These do not make it a higher dimension, but they can affect higher dimensions and be more powerful than the beings there.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

That Smile is all encompassing but the Presence is not. These two entities are not the same and aren’t on the same scope either, so it’s pretty unfair to compare them. That Smile being is way beyond The Presence. The Presence caps at the Sphere of Gods and he is probably not even be the strongest being in there. The entire Sphere of Gods is basically an expression of humanities Collective Unconscious, and there are beings manifested from humanities CU that the Presence literally can’t kill.

I'm tired of explaining, Being is the creator of the angels and the material plane. But what I am saying is tied to what we call Crisis Cosmology. How many times has it been mentioned that the Entity and the Source are the same person... Tyler had it confirmed. But Matteis' Being is absolute unity that contains and surpasses everything. He thinks that everything is an aspect of Presence. Even beings like the Smile and the Magician.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Lucifer went to Aleph to see the pocket reality creator Sandalphon and the whereabouts of his captive Michael. Silver City is completely separated from creation through the void. The abyss is what surrounds heaven. He has a nature of utter contempt for all the rest of creation in Silver City, but Lucifer couldn't or didn't want to go there. He can't go to Silence anyway, it was clear that even his footsteps would destroy and erase this entire realm. Even if we position them under the aleph, it is obvious that they have a structure similar to the Sixth Dimension. Not in terms of power.

The Aleph is the boundary of everything, not just the multiverse. And beyond is the Source.

I leave Black Label completely out of my comments. Even if it were not so, the sea of Brahma is a nothingness underlying everything. Yahweh's plan only covers creation, and there are some elements that violate his reach. Like Lucifer hiding Sycorax from God's all-seeing eye, for example. Lucifer also traveled to other underworlds. He was clearly far superior to them and even destroyed some of them.

As I said, the Sphere was designed for the Gods. Lucifer can destroy the Book of Souls, which covers all dimensions in the Map of Multiverse, at will. If we were to base the series, Lucifer is the Great Darkness itself, and if we were to compare it with other series, it would be Lucifer > Source and Overvoid? We cannot allow creating a hierarchy and cosmology with irrelevant interpretations.

Yeah.

It should not be forgotten that SOG is the source of all magic in creation, or one of the energies of the Source. These do not make it a higher dimension, but they can affect higher dimensions and be more powerful than the beings there.

Wow strange theory
It's funny, likening that place to the source wall
The source wall is the end of everything in the multiverse[Here,] including Yahweh's creation, including the aleph you mean
That place is said to be the edge of Creation [the physical realm].
How is it different from a source wall? on the source wall you will not see everything in the universe.

Lucifer went there just to see the whole universe right? [Here]. It's not the source wall or whatever you mean, it's a place where you can see different worlds throughout the multiverse [Here].
A place to see everything in the entire multiverse.

In the underworld, Hinduism has a very powerful god, even Yahweh does not reach that place, Lucifer only destroys the realm of other gods besides the realm of Hindu gods.

The book of destiny was only burned and did not damage anything, destiny continued as usual. unless you change the contents by removing your name and you will die if you do, like lucifer who died because he erased his name, is that what you call great darkness?

Lucifer is his [Puppet], his strongest puppets are empty hand and darkseid
Darkseid feats beyond lucifer power:
Exist outside of the void, there is Darkseid, the end of everything.
Here,Here, Here
If lucifer had feats like this, you would definitely call white void is the overvoid and darkseid is the great darkness in your opinion

The concept of a god like yahweh is a concept in the Abrahamic religion, it only exists in the sphere of the gods
#edit
The previous link cannot be accessed

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Wow strange theory
It's funny, likening that place to the source wall
The source wall is the end of everything in the multiverse[Here,] including Yahweh's creation, including the aleph you mean
That place is said to be the edge of Creation [the physical realm].
How is it different from a source wall? on the source wall you will not see everything in the universe.

Lucifer went there just to see the whole universe right? [Here]. It's not the source wall or whatever you mean, it's a place where you can see different worlds throughout the multiverse [Here].
A place to see everything in the entire multiverse.

I doubt whether you understand what I say...
In Yahweh's creation, the Source is the protective entity beyond the boundaries of creation. It is never, ever the source of everything. Like Elaine and Mona in Lucifer's creation. Aleph and Source wall are practically the same. Not every writer has holistic ideas like you, I'm sorry.

Do you think Yahweh cannot reach places beyond the reach of his plan? Destiny and her book are the side effect of her deterministic approach to all of creation. The book is based on his screenplay. What you say or try to express supports me. Destiny itself implies that Lucifer may destroy the book. Even though it was erased from the book, its creation stories still remained in memory.

The book of destiny was only burned and did not damage anything, destiny continued as usual. unless you change the contents by removing your name and you will die if you do, like lucifer who died because he erased his name, is that what you call great darkness?

It's not clear he's not the True Lucifer
? Or just transformed into beings that Constantine is familiar with?

The series' cast includes Watters, who claims to be Lucifer's Great Darkness. He should be aware of this too. Lucifer has often been described as darkness. He is God's shadow created to perfect his own light. Darkesid is not outside the void. That void is a void completely independent of the void in Lucifer.

Lucifer is his [Puppet], his strongest puppets are empty hand and darkseid
Darkseid feats beyond lucifer power:
Exist outside of the void, there is Darkseid, the end of everything.
Here,Here, Here
If lucifer had feats like this, you would definitely call white void is the overvoid and darkseid is the great darkness in your opinion

The concept of a god like yahweh is a concept in the Abrahamic religion, it only exists in the sphere of the gods
#edit
The previous link cannot be accessed

Do you think Darkesid is right about what he claims? Is it really the end of everything? Of course no. Even his true form is a weaks being compared to Lucifer. Even if I don't base it on what I've said, and even if Lucifer isn't Graet Darkness (which I don't care) any of his feats are beyond the unable beings in DC.

This is a manifestation of it created by people's dreams. Like the case of Devil or God, they did not choose this. Lucifer's acting with his avatars supports these.

 

[Brahmatman]

I doubt whether you understand what I say...
In Yahweh's creation, the Source is the protective entity beyond the boundaries of creation. It is never, ever the source of everything. Like Elaine and Mona in Lucifer's creation. Aleph and Source wall are practically the same. Not every writer has holistic ideas like you, I'm sorry.

Do you think Yahweh cannot reach places beyond the reach of his plan? Destiny and her book are the side effect of her deterministic approach to all of creation. The book is based on his screenplay. What you say or try to express supports me. Destiny itself implies that Lucifer may destroy the book. Even though it was erased from the book, its creation stories still remained in memory.

The Source Wall surrounds every universe and every plane in the cosmological structure, there is no connection between it and Yahweh.

No, Yahweh cannot reach any places, as he is limited by the Sphere of the Gods. Creation refers to the physical multiverse, in the context of the hierarchical plane of existence in which he resides.
If Yahweh created the creation and lives in the Sphere of the Gods, then the physical multiverse is called the creation.

When the Unknowable isstated to exist beyond creation, it applies to the entire multiverse structure of the Dc, since the map itself identifies him as the supreme entity of the entire cosmological structure. The Unknowable One is possibly a stronger being, and is indicated as God.

It's not clear he's not the True Lucifer
? Or just transformed into beings that Constantine is familiar with?

The series' cast includes Watters, who claims to be Lucifer's Great Darkness. He should be aware of this too. Lucifer has often been described as darkness. He is God's shadow created to perfect his own light. Darkesid is not outside the void. That void is a void completely independent of the void in Lucifer.

The Great Darkness in Lucifer Volume 3 does not have the same cosmological power that it has in the new comics. She was greatly strengthened and her cosmological position changed, making her perhaps the absolute and strongest being in cosmology.

Do you think Darkesid is right about what he claims? Is it really the end of everything? Of course no. Even his true form is a weaks being compared to Lucifer. Even if I don't base it on what I've said, and even if Lucifer isn't Graet Darkness (which I don't care) any of his feats are beyond the unable beings in DC.

This is a manifestation of it created by people's dreams. Like the case of Devil or God, they did not choose this. Lucifer's acting with his avatars supports these.

Compared to the new Lucifer, yes, he has become stronger. But in the old comics, he is an incredible number of times stronger than Yahweh, who is many times stronger than any Archangel. In fact, it is not known for sure whether Lucifer in the new chronology is the Great Darkness, or its puppet.

 

[Brahmatman]

Do you think Darkesid is right about what he claims? Is it really the end of everything? Of course no. Even his true form is a weaks being compared to Lucifer. Even if I don't base it on what I've said, and even if Lucifer isn't Graet Darkness (which I don't care) any of his feats are beyond the unable beings in DC.

This is a manifestation of it created by people's dreams. Like the case of Devil or God, they did not choose this. Lucifer's acting with his avatars supports these.

Your use of character statements is very strange. If one character says that he created a creation, then you attribute to his words the absolute cosmology of the universe, with all its structures. If another character you don’t like says almost the same thing, then his cosmological position is lower, for some reason.
Yahweh > Creation
Darkseid > Creation
Yhwach is higher than Darkseid in terms of existence. Is there some gap in your logic?

 

[Brahmatman]

That true god, who is called the Presence, in the framework of the highest level of cosmology, is the same The Unknowable

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!


The Unknowable and created the entire Dc multiverse, created it from ink (The Source)

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it?

 

[Brahmatman]

To The Unknowable, the Overvoid is simply a piece of paper on which he writes his stories.

And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

And The Unknowable split the Source, making a crack in it, creating the entire creation. This is a very correct interpretation for late cosmology

 

[Ramasugita11]

I doubt whether you understand what I say...
In Yahweh's creation, the Source is the protective entity beyond the boundaries of creation. It is never, ever the source of everything. Like Elaine and Mona in Lucifer's creation. Aleph and Source wall are practically the same. Not every writer has holistic ideas like you, I'm sorry.

I understand what you're talking about, but that's just an assumption that ignores other statements

the Source is the protective entity beyond the boundaries of creation

It's never stated that way, lucifer was there just to see everything in all of creation, that's all and that's already answered, didn't you read that?

The one I posted already answered it, it's just a place where people can see everything and it's not the source wall either

Do you think Yahweh cannot reach places beyond the reach of his plan? Destiny and her book are the side effect of her deterministic approach to all of creation. The book is based on his screenplay. What you say or try to express supports me. Destiny itself implies that Lucifer may destroy the book. Even though it was erased from the book, its creation stories still remained in memory.

It's not clear he's not the True Lucifer
? Or just transformed into beings that Constantine is familiar with?

The series' cast includes Watters, who claims to be Lucifer's Great Darkness. He should be aware of this too. Lucifer has often been described as darkness. He is God's shadow created to perfect his own light. Darkesid is not outside the void. That void is a void completely independent of the void in Lucifer.

Do you think Darkesid is right about what he claims? Is it really the end of everything? Of course no. Even his true form is a weaks being compared to Lucifer. Even if I don't base it on what I've said, and even if Lucifer isn't Graet Darkness (which I don't care) any of his feats are beyond the unable beings in DC.

This is a manifestation of it created by people's dreams. Like the case of Devil or God, they did not choose this. Lucifer's acting with his avatars supports these.

Yes, Yahweh did not reach that place [Here] [Here].
Do you know what archetypes are? Gods are archetypes.

I told you, Yahweh is a concept brought into being by the human mind, just like any other gods. These archetypal concepts only exist in the sphere of the gods, that is also why their place is only in the sphere of the gods, the city of silver is one of the many heavens in the sphere of the gods.

If you read the Lucifer comic, you will understand that the absence of congregants makes them starve and become cannibals.

Destiny and her book are the side effect of her deterministic approach to all of creation.

That was Lucifer's statement, he didn't even answer it.
The endless existed before the gods [Here], the gods are born in the dreaming realm [Here].
They exist because of their mother night and father time, a concept that existed before the beginning[Here]. The book of destiny was a gift from father time.

Yahweh is the same as other gods:

•“As humanity grew, it’s beliefs grew in tandem. Hardening into stricter forms. The realm around her (i.e., the Sphere of the Gods) began to splinter off into bold new forms. Great houses to pantheons of incredible gods. Each with their own mysteries and power.”

•“This universe is built on belief. The little mortals believe in gods and so the gods exist.”

Yahweh could die, how could Lucifer not? it's clear lucifer is the one who died, so read again, he couldn't even save his son from death.

I have given you proof, also Yahweh is the creator of Lucifer and Yahweh existed before Lucifer. Lucifer could not have existed before Yahweh created him.
The Great Darkness also existed before the Overvoid, like saying that Lucifer existed before Yahweh? Does not make sense, he's just a puppet and that's what his name is, a great beast, but that doesn't mean he's a great darkness ( Because it doesn't make sense).

I also wouldn't say darkseid is the great darkness, just because it says he is the darkness and highfather is the light.

5D imps are outside of creation, do you want to say that they are outside the source wall too? Without looking at the context of the story?

Sorry bro

 

[Brahmatman]

5D imps are outside of creation, do you want to say that they are outside the source wall too? Without looking at the context of the story?

Even in the Dc guidebook, it is indicated that the Silver City exists outside of reality, which does not contradict Vertigo

 

[Brahmatman]

And in general, I am amused by the guys who share the cosmology of Dc and Vertigo, but at the same time, use the Dc encyclopedia, which combines the characters of Vertigo and Dc. Is everything okay with the logic here?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

The Source Wall surrounds every universe and every plane in the cosmological structure, there is no connection between it and Yahweh.

No, Yahweh cannot reach any places, as he is limited by the Sphere of the Gods. Creation refers to the physical multiverse, in the context of the hierarchical plane of existence in which he resides.
If Yahweh created the creation and lives in the Sphere of the Gods, then the physical multiverse is called the creation.

What we say about the Lucifer 2000 series is completely unimportant. Infinite creations can easily be destroyed by Lucifer and Michael. Mansions of the Silence, a realm, contains infinite creations. Even the fact that there is an infinite universe in DC has always been controversial. This is a subject that is constantly changing. The Aleph and the Source Wall are the boundaries surrounding creation and you cannot comment beyond that.

Yahweh is not limited to the Sphere just because he resides there. Creation expresses a wholeness that includes not only the physical multiverse but everything. It encompasses abstractions and higher realities. Lucifer appears to be residing in SOG in 2018, but that doesn't mean he's restricted there.

When the Unknowable isstated to exist beyond creation, it applies to the entire multiverse structure of the Dc, since the map itself identifies him as the supreme entity of the entire cosmological structure. The Unknowable One is possibly a stronger being, and is indicated as God.

I don't think what he means by Unknowable is Presence. Grant, would say it directly rather than implying it.

Compared to the new Lucifer, yes, he has become stronger. But in the old comics, he is an incredible number of times stronger than Yahweh, who is many times stronger than any Archangel. In fact, it is not known for sure whether Lucifer in the new chronology is the Great Darkness, or its puppet.

New Lucifer? Even his Avatar form can completely destroy the Underworld or the Book of Souls. What achievement does Darkseid have that comes close to this? How does this relate to Yahweh? So, apart from the Lucifer and Sandman series, there is almost no one who refers to him as Yahweh. How did you connect this to him?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

That true god, who is called the Presence, in the framework of the highest level of cosmology, is the same The Unknowable

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!


The Unknowable and created the entire Dc multiverse, created it from ink (The Source)

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it?

It's not like I'm praising Darkeseid for creating a creation that includes everything. All gods, including Darkseid, are born in the Dreaming and return there. Yahweh, on the other hand, is in a much larger hierarchy than the Dreamking.

As I said for the Unknowable, it is possible that characters such as Source, Overvoid, and Presence are its intermediaries or lower aspects. I disagree with those who say it's Presence.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

I understand what you're talking about, but that's just an assumption that ignores other statements


It's never stated that way, lucifer was there just to see everything in all of creation, that's all and that's already answered, didn't you read that?

The one I posted already answered it, it's just a place where people can see everything and it's not the source wall either

Yes, Yahweh did not reach that place [Here] [Here].
Do you know what archetypes are? Gods are archetypes.

I told you, Yahweh is a concept brought into being by the human mind, just like any other gods. These archetypal concepts only exist in the sphere of the gods, that is also why their place is only in the sphere of the gods, the city of silver is one of the many heavens in the sphere of the gods.

If you read the Lucifer comic, you will understand that the absence of congregants makes them starve and become cannibals.


That was Lucifer's statement, he didn't even answer it.
The endless existed before the gods [Here], the gods are born in the dreaming realm [Here].
They exist because of their mother night and father time, a concept that existed before the beginning[Here]. The book of destiny was a gift from father time.

Yahweh is the same as other gods:

•“As humanity grew, it’s beliefs grew in tandem. Hardening into stricter forms. The realm around her (i.e., the Sphere of the Gods) began to splinter off into bold new forms. Great houses to pantheons of incredible gods. Each with their own mysteries and power.”

•“This universe is built on belief. The little mortals believe in gods and so the gods exist.”

Yahweh could die, how could Lucifer not? it's clear lucifer is the one who died, so read again, he couldn't even save his son from death.

You're trying to impose your ideas on people, but the truth is much more nuanced. Yahweh is infinite and eternal. They are found in the Void, in voids like Night. Destiny, on the other hand, depends on his creation, but for other creations, there are representatives of destiny inspired by him and dependent on him, such as Basanos.

I have given you proof, also Yahweh is the creator of Lucifer and Yahweh existed before Lucifer. Lucifer could not have existed before Yahweh created him.
The Great Darkness also existed before the Overvoid, like saying that Lucifer existed before Yahweh? Does not make sense, he's just a puppet and that's what his name is, a great beast, but that doesn't mean he's a great darkness ( Because it doesn't make sense).

I also wouldn't say darkseid is the great darkness, just because it says he is the darkness and highfather is the light.

5D imps are outside of creation, do you want to say that they are outside the source wall too? Without looking at the context of the story?

Sorry bro

That's why I don't use composite hierarchy anyway. Each summer may not be loyal to the other, which is very natural. We cannot have a holistic idea by blending them with completely independent expressions. There are many Lucifers in DC, but there is only one Morningstar. His Father's Light became perfect through him. It doesn't make sense for me to say Lucifer > Overvoid and Source because I don't combine them under the same hierarchy.

 

[Brahmatman]

What we say about the Lucifer 2000 series is completely unimportant. Infinite creations can easily be destroyed by Lucifer and Michael. Mansions of the Silence, a realm, contains infinite creations. Even the fact that there is an infinite universe in DC has always been controversial. This is a subject that is constantly changing. The Aleph and the Source Wall are the boundaries surrounding creation and you cannot comment beyond that.

Yahweh is not limited to the Sphere just because he resides there. Creation expresses a wholeness that includes not only the physical multiverse but everything. It encompasses abstractions and higher realities. Lucifer appears to be residing in SOG in 2018, but that doesn't mean he's restricted there.

Or maybe not. The physical universe and its infinite range of planets, stars, galaxies, and other stellar phenomena are what most inhab-
itants of Earth are referring to when they discuss the cosmos or the universe. However, the breadth of the worlds por-
trayed in the DC Universe spans far greater reaches than the confines of just one such universe; it is in fact a multiverse.

The fact that they can destroy multiverses is not something incredible. Well yes, the Source Wall surrounds every universe and plane of existence. Did you want to say something new? Being near the Source Wall does not mean that you are at the peak of cosmology. I don't argue that he can travel to different worlds, but only in the Sphere of the Gods.

I don't think what he means by Unknowable is Presence. Grant, would say it directly rather than implying it.

He and Yahweh are in no way connected, except for the common archetype of God and the ability to create creation. The Unknowable is the creator who paints on the white canvas, the Overvoid, and is the strongest and the peak of Dc cosmology.

New Lucifer? Even his Avatar form can completely destroy the Underworld or the Book of Souls. What achievement does Darkseid have that comes close to this? How does this relate to Yahweh? So, apart from the Lucifer and Sandman series, there is almost no one who refers to him as Yahweh. How did you connect this to him?

People mistake the Presence for the peak of cosmology. The peak of cosmology is the Unknowable

 

[Brahmatman]

It's not like I'm praising Darkeseid for creating a creation that includes everything. All gods, including Darkseid, are born in the Dreaming and return there. Yahweh, on the other hand, is in a much larger hierarchy than the Dreamking.

As I said for the Unknowable, it is possible that characters such as Source, Overvoid, and Presence are its intermediaries or lower aspects. I disagree with those who say it's Presence.

And I don’t reach Brahma’s plan?

These are more difficult. Morrison pointed out that this trinity forms a unity. But there is also a strange thing: the Unknowable itself is not on the map. The Unknowable easily makes a crack on the Overvoid using the Source as ink, simply by drawing on white paper. He, based on his name, is Unknowable to them

 

[Brahmatman]

And even the guidebook confirms that Yahweh created only a physical multiverse, with Heaven.

Heaven and Hell are dimensions antithetical to one an-
other and represent a creation story different than those
posited by the gods and goddesses that call the Divine
Realms home (though one with strong evidence to sup-
port it given the existence and hierarchical power levels
of many of the entities involved, such as Lucifer and the
Spectre).
In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.
Within that physical structure, the Presence created the
Silver City to act as the base of operations for his servants
while finishing their assigned tasks in populating the new
existence with concepts and worlds and stars and living
things and all other such phenomena. Of these servants,
the mightiest one day led a rebellion from among the host
of servants, or angels as they were called. The rebellion
failed, and he and his followers were cast out of the Silver
City. The isolated section of the multiverse to where they
were exiled became Hell, and the exiled angels became
known as the Fallen, led by the former instigator of their re-
bellion, Lucifer the Morningstar. Over time, Hell populated
with all manner of dark and infernal servants to the Fallen
and became a place of punishment for the souls of mortals
who had sinned. The souls of those found worthy were in-
stead bound for Heaven, and so the relationship between
the two domains was settled: one the place of reward,
the other condemnation. For those souls caught between
judgments, the domain of Purgatory was created.
Recently, many upheavals have upset the long-held bal-
ance of both domains. First, the Great Darkness, the per-
sonification of the nothingness that the Presence had
pushed out of creation, returned to wreak vengeance on
the Presence. This terrible being clawed its way to Heav-
en before the Presence joined with it and ended its ram-
page. In the aftermath of the Great Darkness’ passage
through Hell, a weakened Lucifer was faced with a power
struggle, which ended when he accepted Beelzebub and
Azazael as partners in a triumvirate that would then rule
Hell. Later still, Lucifer left his kingdoms entirely and the
ancient evil Neron ultimately seized power. Neron then
gulled Asmodel, lord of the Bull Host and one of the
mightiest of Heaven’s warriors, into leading a second re-
bellion against the Presence which also ended in failure
and damned both Asmodel and his followers to join the
ranks of the Fallen.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Or maybe not. The physical universe and its infinite range of planets, stars, galaxies, and other stellar phenomena are what most inhab-
itants of Earth are referring to when they discuss the cosmos or the universe. However, the breadth of the worlds por-
trayed in the DC Universe spans far greater reaches than the confines of just one such universe; it is in fact a multiverse.

The fact that they can destroy multiverses is not something incredible. Well yes, the Source Wall surrounds every universe and plane of existence. Did you want to say something new? Being near the Source Wall does not mean that you are at the peak of cosmology. I don't argue that he can travel to different worlds, but only in the Sphere of the Gods.

You still say that Lucifer and Yahweh are beyond a simple physical multiverse. To put it more accurately, infinite DC destroyed the great omniverse. The source wall or any plane/place does not provide sufficient context to determine character hierarchies and does not allow for healthy interpretations. In Vertigo, everything is infinite. Worlds, Universes, multiverses, realms and higher dimensions.

He and Yahweh are in no way connected, except for the common archetype of God and the ability to create creation. The Unknowable is the creator who paints on the white canvas, the Overvoid, and is the strongest and the peak of Dc cosmology.

Lucifer and Yahweh are on a scale far beyond the mainstream. Don't try to compare them with the rest. There is a hierarchy in their archetypal beings. And no matter what, Lucifer is far beyond Darkseid.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

And I don’t reach Brahma’s plan?

These are more difficult. Morrison pointed out that this trinity forms a unity. But there is also a strange thing: the Unknowable itself is not on the map. The Unknowable easily makes a crack on the Overvoid using the Source as ink, simply by drawing on white paper. He, based on his name, is Unknowable to them

Why should the plan reach a non-existence? Lucifer just wanted to take shelter somewhere outside the influence of the plan. Randomness occurs according to Yahweh's will. Anything may be out of his reach, but he still pulls the strings.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

And even the guidebook confirms that Yahweh created only a physical multiverse, with Heaven.

Heaven and Hell are dimensions antithetical to one an-
other and represent a creation story different than those
posited by the gods and goddesses that call the Divine
Realms home (though one with strong evidence to sup-
port it given the existence and hierarchical power levels
of many of the entities involved, such as Lucifer and the
Spectre).
In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.
Within that physical structure, the Presence created the
Silver City to act as the base of operations for his servants
while finishing their assigned tasks in populating the new
existence with concepts and worlds and stars and living
things and all other such phenomena. Of these servants,
the mightiest one day led a rebellion from among the host
of servants, or angels as they were called. The rebellion
failed, and he and his followers were cast out of the Silver
City. The isolated section of the multiverse to where they
were exiled became Hell, and the exiled angels became
known as the Fallen, led by the former instigator of their re-
bellion, Lucifer the Morningstar. Over time, Hell populated
with all manner of dark and infernal servants to the Fallen
and became a place of punishment for the souls of mortals
who had sinned. The souls of those found worthy were in-
stead bound for Heaven, and so the relationship between
the two domains was settled: one the place of reward,
the other condemnation. For those souls caught between
judgments, the domain of Purgatory was created.
Recently, many upheavals have upset the long-held bal-
ance of both domains. First, the Great Darkness, the per-
sonification of the nothingness that the Presence had
pushed out of creation, returned to wreak vengeance on
the Presence. This terrible being clawed its way to Heav-
en before the Presence joined with it and ended its ram-
page. In the aftermath of the Great Darkness’ passage
through Hell, a weakened Lucifer was faced with a power
struggle, which ended when he accepted Beelzebub and
Azazael as partners in a triumvirate that would then rule
Hell. Later still, Lucifer left his kingdoms entirely and the
ancient evil Neron ultimately seized power. Neron then
gulled Asmodel, lord of the Bull Host and one of the
mightiest of Heaven’s warriors, into leading a second re-
bellion against the Presence which also ended in failure
and damned both Asmodel and his followers to join the
ranks of the Fallen.

Please do not try to conflate the mainstream and vertigo continuums. Silver city is beyond not only the material plane but also the metaphysical realms beyond them and treats them like child's play. Lucifer didn't get weaker, he just enjoyed having others set their sights on his throne and watching the poor demons who tried to achieve that goal fail. He was bored in hell. You know how you made fun of Etrigan?

 

[Brahmatman]

You still say that Lucifer and Yahweh are beyond a simple physical multiverse. To put it more accurately, infinite DC destroyed the great omniverse. The source wall or any plane/place does not provide sufficient context to determine character hierarchies and does not allow for healthy interpretations. In Vertigo, everything is infinite. Worlds, Universes, multiverses, realms and higher dimensions.

The Source Wall is context dependent. If a character from the Godsphere destroyed a wall in the Sog, then it will only be a wall from the Sog. Do you understand? This does not give the peak of cosmology. This is not Vertigo cosmology, this is Dc cosmology

Lucifer and Yahweh are on a scale far beyond the mainstream. Don't try to compare them with the rest. There is a hierarchy in their archetypal beings. And no matter what, Lucifer is far beyond Darkseid.

Yahweh is unknown. Lucifer, yes, as a puppet of the Great Darkness, he is stronger than Darkseid

 

[Brahmatman]

Why should the plan reach a non-existence? Lucifer just wanted to take shelter somewhere outside the influence of the plan. Randomness occurs according to Yahweh's will. Anything may be out of his reach, but he still pulls the strings.

This is an invention of a personal plot, or fan fiction

 

[Brahmatman]

Please do not try to conflate the mainstream and vertigo continuums. Silver city is beyond not only the material plane but also the metaphysical realms beyond them and treats them like child's play. Lucifer didn't get weaker, he just enjoyed having others set their sights on his throne and watching the poor demons who tried to achieve that goal fail. He was bored in hell. You know how you made fun of Etrigan?

Provide official evidence that Vertigo and DC are different universes. This guidebook combines both Dc and Vertigo. The Silver City cannot be outside all spheres, it was attacked by Apokolips

 

[Deleted member 30746]

The Source Wall is context dependent. If a character from the Godsphere destroyed a wall in the Sog, then it will only be a wall from the Sog. Do you understand? This does not give the peak of cosmology. This is not Vertigo cosmology, this is Dc cosmology

That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo.

This is an invention of a personal plot, or fan fiction

What did you say that about?

Yahweh is unknown. Lucifer, yes, as a puppet of the Great Darkness, he is stronger than Darkseid

Lucifer is not a puppet of TGD and is much more powerful than Darkesid no matter what form he takes.

Provide official evidence that Vertigo and DC are different universes. This guidebook combines both Dc and Vertigo. The Silver City cannot be outside all spheres, it was attacked by Apokolips

They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.

 

[Elizio33]

Works like Eternity Girl and Promethea also seem to have brought out the spiritual nature these comics I think we can also incorporate them into spiritual cosmology. but we need to discuss these comics.

I will evaluate these stories for the Spiritual Cosmology later, but i'm pretty sure that if we could combine different authors' stories to make the Crisis Cosmology (I.e. Post-Final Crisis & Multiversity Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson, and Geoff Johns), we could surely do the same for J.M. DeMatteis' contributions since other writers' works are consistent with DeMatteis's, at least with those whose differences are either minor or not relevant enough to separate them.

 

[Brahmatman]

That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo.

Separation for fictitious reasons. Aleph appeared before Vertigo, and Darkseid knows about them, as well as about the Cabal. Why can't I? The official map and guidebooks have already done everything for me.

What did you say that about?

Because I don’t like it when people try to reconstruct the text written in a comic in their own way. I don't mean anything rude

Lucifer is not a puppet of TGD and is much more powerful than Darkesid no matter what form he takes.

Why isn't it? The new comics quite show a change in chronology, where the Great Darkness is no longer his avatar. No, not stronger, rather, it is difficult to establish an exact balance of power between them, in basic forms

They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.

Sandman appeared in Dc. Destiny (Endless) appeared in DC in '72. A lot of Vertigo characters appeared before Flashpoint. Vertigo characters have appeared in DC guidebooks. In fact, there are no official statements that Vertigo is a separate universe, with the exception of fan-made ones. But the fan's opinion is lower than the author or publisher

 

[PrinceStories]

I will evaluate these stories for the Spiritual Cosmology later, but i'm pretty sure that if we could combine different authors' stories to make the Crisis Cosmology (I.e. Post-Final Crisis & Multiversity Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson, and Geoff Johns), we could surely do the same for J.M. DeMatteis' contributions since other writers' works are consistent with DeMatteis's, at least with those whose differences are either minor or not relevant enough to separate them.

Thank you for responding, BTW can you provide a list of comics brought?

 

[Brahmatman]

That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo

Full context here

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Separation for fictitious reasons. Aleph appeared before Vertigo, and Darkseid knows about them, as well as about the Cabal. Why can't I? The official map and guidebooks have already done everything for me.

I am saying that the two definitions are very different. Both are things with different terminology.

Because I don’t like it when people try to reconstruct the text written in a comic in their own way. I don't mean anything rude

You cannot say that what I say is independent of the text. Everyone can make different inferences by looking at the texts, and my ideas are the most logical interpretation that can be drawn from the text. The same goes for you. You interpret this in your own way.

Why isn't it? The new comics quite show a change in chronology, where the Great Darkness is no longer his avatar. No, not stronger, rather, it is difficult to establish an exact balance of power between them, in basic forms

As I said, she is not the True Morningstar, she is specifically imitating her. DC doesn't progress in a linear chronology anyway. In dreaming, it is transformed by dreams, resets and crises that change the course of creation. Tyler confirmed this. Even Darkesid's true form is no match for Lucifer. He owes his existence to Lucifer.

Sandman appeared in Dc. Destiny (Endless) appeared in DC in '72. A lot of Vertigo characters appeared before Flashpoint. Vertigo characters have appeared in DC guidebooks. In fact, there are no official statements that Vertigo is a separate universe, with the exception of fan-made ones. But the fan's opinion is lower than the author or publisher

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.

 

[Jolman1]

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.

Storylines that were not previously associated with DC comics can be separate, but not those that have been correlated with each other since the 20th century...

 

[Brahmatman]

I am saying that the two definitions are very different. Both are things with different terminology.

Alephs?

You cannot say that what I say is independent of the text. Everyone can make different inferences by looking at the texts, and my ideas are the most logical interpretation that can be drawn from the text. The same goes for you. You interpret this in your own way.

I use only what the author writes, without my personal interpretations of the meaning.

As I said, she is not the True Morningstar, she is specifically imitating her. DC doesn't progress in a linear chronology anyway. In dreaming, it is transformed by dreams, resets and crises that change the course of creation. Tyler confirmed this. Even Darkesid's true form is no match for Lucifer. He owes his existence to Lucifer.

This is not known for sure. It follows that in the Dark Crisis it was confirmed that all the events of the Crises and other global events occurred

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.

The fact that Vertigo was closed does not negate their presence in the plots of old or new comics. Nobody is saying that you need to put everything on top of each other, it is better to use things that are interconnected. But it was also stated that everything in DC is canon

 

[Brahmatman]

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information

Fictional universes are generally not suitable for this wiki, unless they are written specifically for it. But something doesn’t stop anyone from making cosmologies and profiles on this wiki

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Storylines that were not previously associated with DC comics can be separate, but not those that have been correlated with each other since the 20th century...

We don't create cosmologies based on centuries, my friend. We only combine those that are most closely related to each other. And these are unrelated continuities.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Alephs?

Yeaps.

I use only what the author writes, without my personal interpretations of the meaning.

Okey.

This is not known for sure. It follows that in the Dark Crisis it was confirmed that all the events of the Crises and other global events occurred

The relationship between Lucifer and the Great Darkness is very blurry, but the second issue is a clear one.

The fact that Vertigo was closed does not negate their presence in the plots of old or new comics. Nobody is saying that you need to put everything on top of each other, it is better to use things that are interconnected. But it was also stated that everything in DC is canon

It doesn't really matter. As I said, you can use the expression "comp dc" outside of this site, but for the purpose of this wiki, what you say is irrelevant.

 

[Jolman1]

We don't create cosmologies based on centuries, my friend. We only combine those that are most closely related to each other. And these are unrelated continuities.

BL contain Sandman universe and I mean it. I have no idea what are u talking about else.

 

[Elizio33]

Thank you for responding, BTW can you provide a list of comics brought?

I don't have much at the moment.