General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[LazyMortician]

The Source Wall surrounds every universe and every plane in the cosmological structure, there is no connection between it and Yahweh.

No, Yahweh cannot reach any places, as he is limited by the Sphere of the Gods. Creation refers to the physical multiverse, in the context of the hierarchical plane of existence in which he resides.
If Yahweh created the creation and lives in the Sphere of the Gods, then the physical multiverse is called the creation.

What we say about the Lucifer 2000 series is completely unimportant. Infinite creations can easily be destroyed by Lucifer and Michael. Mansions of the Silence, a realm, contains infinite creations. Even the fact that there is an infinite universe in DC has always been controversial. This is a subject that is constantly changing. The Aleph and the Source Wall are the boundaries surrounding creation and you cannot comment beyond that.

Yahweh is not limited to the Sphere just because he resides there. Creation expresses a wholeness that includes not only the physical multiverse but everything. It encompasses abstractions and higher realities. Lucifer appears to be residing in SOG in 2018, but that doesn't mean he's restricted there.

When the Unknowable isstated to exist beyond creation, it applies to the entire multiverse structure of the Dc, since the map itself identifies him as the supreme entity of the entire cosmological structure. The Unknowable One is possibly a stronger being, and is indicated as God.

I don't think what he means by Unknowable is Presence. Grant, would say it directly rather than implying it.

Compared to the new Lucifer, yes, he has become stronger. But in the old comics, he is an incredible number of times stronger than Yahweh, who is many times stronger than any Archangel. In fact, it is not known for sure whether Lucifer in the new chronology is the Great Darkness, or its puppet.

New Lucifer? Even his Avatar form can completely destroy the Underworld or the Book of Souls. What achievement does Darkseid have that comes close to this? How does this relate to Yahweh? So, apart from the Lucifer and Sandman series, there is almost no one who refers to him as Yahweh. How did you connect this to him?

 

[LazyMortician]

That true god, who is called the Presence, in the framework of the highest level of cosmology, is the same The Unknowable

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!


The Unknowable and created the entire Dc multiverse, created it from ink (The Source)

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it?

It's not like I'm praising Darkeseid for creating a creation that includes everything. All gods, including Darkseid, are born in the Dreaming and return there. Yahweh, on the other hand, is in a much larger hierarchy than the Dreamking.

As I said for the Unknowable, it is possible that characters such as Source, Overvoid, and Presence are its intermediaries or lower aspects. I disagree with those who say it's Presence.

 

[LazyMortician]

I understand what you're talking about, but that's just an assumption that ignores other statements


It's never stated that way, lucifer was there just to see everything in all of creation, that's all and that's already answered, didn't you read that?

The one I posted already answered it, it's just a place where people can see everything and it's not the source wall either

Yes, Yahweh did not reach that place [Here] [Here].
Do you know what archetypes are? Gods are archetypes.

I told you, Yahweh is a concept brought into being by the human mind, just like any other gods. These archetypal concepts only exist in the sphere of the gods, that is also why their place is only in the sphere of the gods, the city of silver is one of the many heavens in the sphere of the gods.

If you read the Lucifer comic, you will understand that the absence of congregants makes them starve and become cannibals.


That was Lucifer's statement, he didn't even answer it.
The endless existed before the gods [Here], the gods are born in the dreaming realm [Here].
They exist because of their mother night and father time, a concept that existed before the beginning[Here]. The book of destiny was a gift from father time.

Yahweh is the same as other gods:

•“As humanity grew, it’s beliefs grew in tandem. Hardening into stricter forms. The realm around her (i.e., the Sphere of the Gods) began to splinter off into bold new forms. Great houses to pantheons of incredible gods. Each with their own mysteries and power.”

•“This universe is built on belief. The little mortals believe in gods and so the gods exist.”

Yahweh could die, how could Lucifer not? it's clear lucifer is the one who died, so read again, he couldn't even save his son from death.

You're trying to impose your ideas on people, but the truth is much more nuanced. Yahweh is infinite and eternal. They are found in the Void, in voids like Night. Destiny, on the other hand, depends on his creation, but for other creations, there are representatives of destiny inspired by him and dependent on him, such as Basanos.

I have given you proof, also Yahweh is the creator of Lucifer and Yahweh existed before Lucifer. Lucifer could not have existed before Yahweh created him.
The Great Darkness also existed before the Overvoid, like saying that Lucifer existed before Yahweh? Does not make sense, he's just a puppet and that's what his name is, a great beast, but that doesn't mean he's a great darkness ( Because it doesn't make sense).

I also wouldn't say darkseid is the great darkness, just because it says he is the darkness and highfather is the light.

5D imps are outside of creation, do you want to say that they are outside the source wall too? Without looking at the context of the story?

Sorry bro

That's why I don't use composite hierarchy anyway. Each summer may not be loyal to the other, which is very natural. We cannot have a holistic idea by blending them with completely independent expressions. There are many Lucifers in DC, but there is only one Morningstar. His Father's Light became perfect through him. It doesn't make sense for me to say Lucifer > Overvoid and Source because I don't combine them under the same hierarchy.

 

[Brahmatman]

What we say about the Lucifer 2000 series is completely unimportant. Infinite creations can easily be destroyed by Lucifer and Michael. Mansions of the Silence, a realm, contains infinite creations. Even the fact that there is an infinite universe in DC has always been controversial. This is a subject that is constantly changing. The Aleph and the Source Wall are the boundaries surrounding creation and you cannot comment beyond that.

Yahweh is not limited to the Sphere just because he resides there. Creation expresses a wholeness that includes not only the physical multiverse but everything. It encompasses abstractions and higher realities. Lucifer appears to be residing in SOG in 2018, but that doesn't mean he's restricted there.

Or maybe not. The physical universe and its infinite range of planets, stars, galaxies, and other stellar phenomena are what most inhab-
itants of Earth are referring to when they discuss the cosmos or the universe. However, the breadth of the worlds por-
trayed in the DC Universe spans far greater reaches than the confines of just one such universe; it is in fact a multiverse.

The fact that they can destroy multiverses is not something incredible. Well yes, the Source Wall surrounds every universe and plane of existence. Did you want to say something new? Being near the Source Wall does not mean that you are at the peak of cosmology. I don't argue that he can travel to different worlds, but only in the Sphere of the Gods.

I don't think what he means by Unknowable is Presence. Grant, would say it directly rather than implying it.

He and Yahweh are in no way connected, except for the common archetype of God and the ability to create creation. The Unknowable is the creator who paints on the white canvas, the Overvoid, and is the strongest and the peak of Dc cosmology.

New Lucifer? Even his Avatar form can completely destroy the Underworld or the Book of Souls. What achievement does Darkseid have that comes close to this? How does this relate to Yahweh? So, apart from the Lucifer and Sandman series, there is almost no one who refers to him as Yahweh. How did you connect this to him?

People mistake the Presence for the peak of cosmology. The peak of cosmology is the Unknowable

 

[Brahmatman]

It's not like I'm praising Darkeseid for creating a creation that includes everything. All gods, including Darkseid, are born in the Dreaming and return there. Yahweh, on the other hand, is in a much larger hierarchy than the Dreamking.

As I said for the Unknowable, it is possible that characters such as Source, Overvoid, and Presence are its intermediaries or lower aspects. I disagree with those who say it's Presence.

And I don’t reach Brahma’s plan?

These are more difficult. Morrison pointed out that this trinity forms a unity. But there is also a strange thing: the Unknowable itself is not on the map. The Unknowable easily makes a crack on the Overvoid using the Source as ink, simply by drawing on white paper. He, based on his name, is Unknowable to them

 

[Brahmatman]

And even the guidebook confirms that Yahweh created only a physical multiverse, with Heaven.

Heaven and Hell are dimensions antithetical to one an-
other and represent a creation story different than those
posited by the gods and goddesses that call the Divine
Realms home (though one with strong evidence to sup-
port it given the existence and hierarchical power levels
of many of the entities involved, such as Lucifer and the
Spectre).
In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.
Within that physical structure, the Presence created the
Silver City to act as the base of operations for his servants
while finishing their assigned tasks in populating the new
existence with concepts and worlds and stars and living
things and all other such phenomena. Of these servants,
the mightiest one day led a rebellion from among the host
of servants, or angels as they were called. The rebellion
failed, and he and his followers were cast out of the Silver
City. The isolated section of the multiverse to where they
were exiled became Hell, and the exiled angels became
known as the Fallen, led by the former instigator of their re-
bellion, Lucifer the Morningstar. Over time, Hell populated
with all manner of dark and infernal servants to the Fallen
and became a place of punishment for the souls of mortals
who had sinned. The souls of those found worthy were in-
stead bound for Heaven, and so the relationship between
the two domains was settled: one the place of reward,
the other condemnation. For those souls caught between
judgments, the domain of Purgatory was created.
Recently, many upheavals have upset the long-held bal-
ance of both domains. First, the Great Darkness, the per-
sonification of the nothingness that the Presence had
pushed out of creation, returned to wreak vengeance on
the Presence. This terrible being clawed its way to Heav-
en before the Presence joined with it and ended its ram-
page. In the aftermath of the Great Darkness’ passage
through Hell, a weakened Lucifer was faced with a power
struggle, which ended when he accepted Beelzebub and
Azazael as partners in a triumvirate that would then rule
Hell. Later still, Lucifer left his kingdoms entirely and the
ancient evil Neron ultimately seized power. Neron then
gulled Asmodel, lord of the Bull Host and one of the
mightiest of Heaven’s warriors, into leading a second re-
bellion against the Presence which also ended in failure
and damned both Asmodel and his followers to join the
ranks of the Fallen.

 

[LazyMortician]

Or maybe not. The physical universe and its infinite range of planets, stars, galaxies, and other stellar phenomena are what most inhab-
itants of Earth are referring to when they discuss the cosmos or the universe. However, the breadth of the worlds por-
trayed in the DC Universe spans far greater reaches than the confines of just one such universe; it is in fact a multiverse.

The fact that they can destroy multiverses is not something incredible. Well yes, the Source Wall surrounds every universe and plane of existence. Did you want to say something new? Being near the Source Wall does not mean that you are at the peak of cosmology. I don't argue that he can travel to different worlds, but only in the Sphere of the Gods.

You still say that Lucifer and Yahweh are beyond a simple physical multiverse. To put it more accurately, infinite DC destroyed the great omniverse. The source wall or any plane/place does not provide sufficient context to determine character hierarchies and does not allow for healthy interpretations. In Vertigo, everything is infinite. Worlds, Universes, multiverses, realms and higher dimensions.

He and Yahweh are in no way connected, except for the common archetype of God and the ability to create creation. The Unknowable is the creator who paints on the white canvas, the Overvoid, and is the strongest and the peak of Dc cosmology.

Lucifer and Yahweh are on a scale far beyond the mainstream. Don't try to compare them with the rest. There is a hierarchy in their archetypal beings. And no matter what, Lucifer is far beyond Darkseid.

 

[LazyMortician]

And I don’t reach Brahma’s plan?

These are more difficult. Morrison pointed out that this trinity forms a unity. But there is also a strange thing: the Unknowable itself is not on the map. The Unknowable easily makes a crack on the Overvoid using the Source as ink, simply by drawing on white paper. He, based on his name, is Unknowable to them

Why should the plan reach a non-existence? Lucifer just wanted to take shelter somewhere outside the influence of the plan. Randomness occurs according to Yahweh's will. Anything may be out of his reach, but he still pulls the strings.

 

[LazyMortician]

And even the guidebook confirms that Yahweh created only a physical multiverse, with Heaven.

Heaven and Hell are dimensions antithetical to one an-
other and represent a creation story different than those
posited by the gods and goddesses that call the Divine
Realms home (though one with strong evidence to sup-
port it given the existence and hierarchical power levels
of many of the entities involved, such as Lucifer and the
Spectre).
In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.
Within that physical structure, the Presence created the
Silver City to act as the base of operations for his servants
while finishing their assigned tasks in populating the new
existence with concepts and worlds and stars and living
things and all other such phenomena. Of these servants,
the mightiest one day led a rebellion from among the host
of servants, or angels as they were called. The rebellion
failed, and he and his followers were cast out of the Silver
City. The isolated section of the multiverse to where they
were exiled became Hell, and the exiled angels became
known as the Fallen, led by the former instigator of their re-
bellion, Lucifer the Morningstar. Over time, Hell populated
with all manner of dark and infernal servants to the Fallen
and became a place of punishment for the souls of mortals
who had sinned. The souls of those found worthy were in-
stead bound for Heaven, and so the relationship between
the two domains was settled: one the place of reward,
the other condemnation. For those souls caught between
judgments, the domain of Purgatory was created.
Recently, many upheavals have upset the long-held bal-
ance of both domains. First, the Great Darkness, the per-
sonification of the nothingness that the Presence had
pushed out of creation, returned to wreak vengeance on
the Presence. This terrible being clawed its way to Heav-
en before the Presence joined with it and ended its ram-
page. In the aftermath of the Great Darkness’ passage
through Hell, a weakened Lucifer was faced with a power
struggle, which ended when he accepted Beelzebub and
Azazael as partners in a triumvirate that would then rule
Hell. Later still, Lucifer left his kingdoms entirely and the
ancient evil Neron ultimately seized power. Neron then
gulled Asmodel, lord of the Bull Host and one of the
mightiest of Heaven’s warriors, into leading a second re-
bellion against the Presence which also ended in failure
and damned both Asmodel and his followers to join the
ranks of the Fallen.

Please do not try to conflate the mainstream and vertigo continuums. Silver city is beyond not only the material plane but also the metaphysical realms beyond them and treats them like child's play. Lucifer didn't get weaker, he just enjoyed having others set their sights on his throne and watching the poor demons who tried to achieve that goal fail. He was bored in hell. You know how you made fun of Etrigan?

 

[Brahmatman]

You still say that Lucifer and Yahweh are beyond a simple physical multiverse. To put it more accurately, infinite DC destroyed the great omniverse. The source wall or any plane/place does not provide sufficient context to determine character hierarchies and does not allow for healthy interpretations. In Vertigo, everything is infinite. Worlds, Universes, multiverses, realms and higher dimensions.

The Source Wall is context dependent. If a character from the Godsphere destroyed a wall in the Sog, then it will only be a wall from the Sog. Do you understand? This does not give the peak of cosmology. This is not Vertigo cosmology, this is Dc cosmology

Lucifer and Yahweh are on a scale far beyond the mainstream. Don't try to compare them with the rest. There is a hierarchy in their archetypal beings. And no matter what, Lucifer is far beyond Darkseid.

Yahweh is unknown. Lucifer, yes, as a puppet of the Great Darkness, he is stronger than Darkseid

 

[Brahmatman]

Why should the plan reach a non-existence? Lucifer just wanted to take shelter somewhere outside the influence of the plan. Randomness occurs according to Yahweh's will. Anything may be out of his reach, but he still pulls the strings.

This is an invention of a personal plot, or fan fiction

 

[Brahmatman]

Please do not try to conflate the mainstream and vertigo continuums. Silver city is beyond not only the material plane but also the metaphysical realms beyond them and treats them like child's play. Lucifer didn't get weaker, he just enjoyed having others set their sights on his throne and watching the poor demons who tried to achieve that goal fail. He was bored in hell. You know how you made fun of Etrigan?

Provide official evidence that Vertigo and DC are different universes. This guidebook combines both Dc and Vertigo. The Silver City cannot be outside all spheres, it was attacked by Apokolips

 

[LazyMortician]

The Source Wall is context dependent. If a character from the Godsphere destroyed a wall in the Sog, then it will only be a wall from the Sog. Do you understand? This does not give the peak of cosmology. This is not Vertigo cosmology, this is Dc cosmology

That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo.

This is an invention of a personal plot, or fan fiction

What did you say that about?

Yahweh is unknown. Lucifer, yes, as a puppet of the Great Darkness, he is stronger than Darkseid

Lucifer is not a puppet of TGD and is much more powerful than Darkesid no matter what form he takes.

Provide official evidence that Vertigo and DC are different universes. This guidebook combines both Dc and Vertigo. The Silver City cannot be outside all spheres, it was attacked by Apokolips

They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.

 

[Elizio33]

Works like Eternity Girl and Promethea also seem to have brought out the spiritual nature these comics I think we can also incorporate them into spiritual cosmology. but we need to discuss these comics.

I will evaluate these stories for the Spiritual Cosmology later, but i'm pretty sure that if we could combine different authors' stories to make the Crisis Cosmology (I.e. Post-Final Crisis & Multiversity Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson, and Geoff Johns), we could surely do the same for J.M. DeMatteis' contributions since other writers' works are consistent with DeMatteis's, at least with those whose differences are either minor or not relevant enough to separate them.

 

[Brahmatman]

That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo.

Separation for fictitious reasons. Aleph appeared before Vertigo, and Darkseid knows about them, as well as about the Cabal. Why can't I? The official map and guidebooks have already done everything for me.

What did you say that about?

Because I don’t like it when people try to reconstruct the text written in a comic in their own way. I don't mean anything rude

Lucifer is not a puppet of TGD and is much more powerful than Darkesid no matter what form he takes.

Why isn't it? The new comics quite show a change in chronology, where the Great Darkness is no longer his avatar. No, not stronger, rather, it is difficult to establish an exact balance of power between them, in basic forms

They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.

Sandman appeared in Dc. Destiny (Endless) appeared in DC in '72. A lot of Vertigo characters appeared before Flashpoint. Vertigo characters have appeared in DC guidebooks. In fact, there are no official statements that Vertigo is a separate universe, with the exception of fan-made ones. But the fan's opinion is lower than the author or publisher

 

[PrinceStories]

I will evaluate these stories for the Spiritual Cosmology later, but i'm pretty sure that if we could combine different authors' stories to make the Crisis Cosmology (I.e. Post-Final Crisis & Multiversity Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson, and Geoff Johns), we could surely do the same for J.M. DeMatteis' contributions since other writers' works are consistent with DeMatteis's, at least with those whose differences are either minor or not relevant enough to separate them.

Thank you for responding, BTW can you provide a list of comics brought?

 

[Brahmatman]

That's why we separate them. Aleph is the limit of everything, not Sog. (for vertigo) But you cannot apply the planes in DC to Vertigo

Full context here

 

[LazyMortician]

Separation for fictitious reasons. Aleph appeared before Vertigo, and Darkseid knows about them, as well as about the Cabal. Why can't I? The official map and guidebooks have already done everything for me.

I am saying that the two definitions are very different. Both are things with different terminology.

Because I don’t like it when people try to reconstruct the text written in a comic in their own way. I don't mean anything rude

You cannot say that what I say is independent of the text. Everyone can make different inferences by looking at the texts, and my ideas are the most logical interpretation that can be drawn from the text. The same goes for you. You interpret this in your own way.

Why isn't it? The new comics quite show a change in chronology, where the Great Darkness is no longer his avatar. No, not stronger, rather, it is difficult to establish an exact balance of power between them, in basic forms

As I said, she is not the True Morningstar, she is specifically imitating her. DC doesn't progress in a linear chronology anyway. In dreaming, it is transformed by dreams, resets and crises that change the course of creation. Tyler confirmed this. Even Darkesid's true form is no match for Lucifer. He owes his existence to Lucifer.

Sandman appeared in Dc. Destiny (Endless) appeared in DC in '72. A lot of Vertigo characters appeared before Flashpoint. Vertigo characters have appeared in DC guidebooks. In fact, there are no official statements that Vertigo is a separate universe, with the exception of fan-made ones. But the fan's opinion is lower than the author or publisher

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.

 

[Jolman1]

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.

Storylines that were not previously associated with DC comics can be separate, but not those that have been correlated with each other since the 20th century...

 

[Brahmatman]

I am saying that the two definitions are very different. Both are things with different terminology.

Alephs?

You cannot say that what I say is independent of the text. Everyone can make different inferences by looking at the texts, and my ideas are the most logical interpretation that can be drawn from the text. The same goes for you. You interpret this in your own way.

I use only what the author writes, without my personal interpretations of the meaning.

As I said, she is not the True Morningstar, she is specifically imitating her. DC doesn't progress in a linear chronology anyway. In dreaming, it is transformed by dreams, resets and crises that change the course of creation. Tyler confirmed this. Even Darkesid's true form is no match for Lucifer. He owes his existence to Lucifer.

This is not known for sure. It follows that in the Dark Crisis it was confirmed that all the events of the Crises and other global events occurred

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information.

The fact that Vertigo was closed does not negate their presence in the plots of old or new comics. Nobody is saying that you need to put everything on top of each other, it is better to use things that are interconnected. But it was also stated that everything in DC is canon

 

[Brahmatman]

Regardless, Vertigo is no longer in DC. A separate continuity from DC in Black Label. They have little contact with the mainstream continuity. We can never combine these continuities for this wiki. Apart from that, if we bring these continuities together, we are left with a mess of information

Fictional universes are generally not suitable for this wiki, unless they are written specifically for it. But something doesn’t stop anyone from making cosmologies and profiles on this wiki

 

[LazyMortician]

Storylines that were not previously associated with DC comics can be separate, but not those that have been correlated with each other since the 20th century...

We don't create cosmologies based on centuries, my friend. We only combine those that are most closely related to each other. And these are unrelated continuities.

 

[LazyMortician]

Alephs?

Yeaps.

I use only what the author writes, without my personal interpretations of the meaning.

Okey.

This is not known for sure. It follows that in the Dark Crisis it was confirmed that all the events of the Crises and other global events occurred

The relationship between Lucifer and the Great Darkness is very blurry, but the second issue is a clear one.

The fact that Vertigo was closed does not negate their presence in the plots of old or new comics. Nobody is saying that you need to put everything on top of each other, it is better to use things that are interconnected. But it was also stated that everything in DC is canon

It doesn't really matter. As I said, you can use the expression "comp dc" outside of this site, but for the purpose of this wiki, what you say is irrelevant.

 

[Jolman1]

We don't create cosmologies based on centuries, my friend. We only combine those that are most closely related to each other. And these are unrelated continuities.

BL contain Sandman universe and I mean it. I have no idea what are u talking about else.

 

[Elizio33]

Thank you for responding, BTW can you provide a list of comics brought?

I don't have much at the moment.

 

[Ramasugita11]

You're trying to impose your ideas on people, but the truth is much more nuanced. Yahweh is infinite and eternal. They are found in the Void, in voids like Night. Destiny, on the other hand, depends on his creation, but for other creations, there are representatives of destiny inspired by him and dependent on him, such as Basanos.

Its looks like you haven't read Lucifer [2018] or don't understand the comic storyline.
You have always insisted that Yahweh is the original presence, even though the two are different.

•The presence is the same as the source, it is outside the source wall [Here]. Meaning that all-creation in the greater omniverse, including the underworld, is part of him
•Yahweh is omnipotent only in his domain, because his plans do not reach void yama [underworld]. If he was truly almighty, then that place wouldn't be a problem for his plans
•You mention that Yahweh is eternal and infinite, but you ignore external forces, He is eternal because humans worship him, he is infinite because humans think so, he is the god of his creation, this concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the god.
•in other god realms, they have their own gods.
•You think Yahweh is the creator of everything, but He is limited to His creation. You ignore all the evidence I provide with that nonsensical logic

Did you read the 2000 Lucifer comic? Hasn't it been explained several times that there are other creations out there, not only Yahweh is considered god, but most other religious concepts also have their own creator god? [Here]

Silkman is also not part of Yahweh's creation, this clearly shows that Yahweh is finite while the presence is infinite.

Yahweh's creation was not perfect, even though his creation was only a silver city and the physical world, therefore he needed elaine belloc to repair the creation, which was intended to be the physical world, because what was removed was the physical world. [Here]

Yahweh is omniscient?

•The book of destiny knows everything and is a gift from father time
•There are other pantheons with their own creator gods

You cannot deny the facts that I convey, the presence/the source/the overvoid existed before father time, father time existed before destiny, dreams existed before the gods including Yahweh and other gods.

It made sense that destiny said "I existed before the first god", because he existed before the dream of the endless existed.

Perpetua is the first creator and exists beyond the 5th dimension, The original presence existed before the first creation, where there was father time and mother night.

No one escapes death, they only slow death but do not avoid it, he couldn't save his child from death.

That's why I don't use composite hierarchy anyway. Each summer may not be loyal to the other, which is very natural. We cannot have a holistic idea by blending them with completely independent expressions. There are many Lucifers in DC, but there is only one Morningstar. His Father's Light became perfect through him. It doesn't make sense for me to say Lucifer > Overvoid and Source because I don't combine them under the same hierarchy.

The hierarchy is not wrong, everything is correct based on what I explained

#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]

 

[PrinceStories]

I don't have much at the moment.

Alright but are you also going to bring material comics from some Animal man and Doom patrol?. Sorry to bother you again.

 

[Elizio33]

Alright but are you also going to bring material comics from some Animal man and Doom patrol?. Sorry to bother you again.

Anything that can be used. The sorting will come later with what does and doesn't enough fit DeMatteis' stories.

 

[PrinceStories]

Anything that can be used. The sorting will come later with what does and doesn't enough fit DeMatteis' stories.

Alright I see what you mean, whatever that I will still wait patiently if you are willing to make a thread.

 

[Elizio33]

Alright I see what you mean, whatever that I will still wait patiently if you are willing to make a thread.

If you would like to help me for the Spiritual Cosmology by providing any comic book titles or notable information/scans, you are more than welcome.

 

[PrinceStories]

If you would like to help me for the Spiritual Cosmology by providing any comic book titles or notable information/scans, you are more than welcome.

No problem, I will try my best to providing information/scans that can be helpful for spiritual cosmology work.

 

[Elizio33]

No problem, I will try my best to providing information/scans that can be helpful for spiritual cosmology work.

Thank you! You can post on my message wall with any scans or notable information it you want.

 

[PrinceStories]

Thank you! You can post on my message wall with any scans or notable information it you want.

Alright if that's what you want if I can't provide more information on your thread.

 

[Elizio33]

Alright if that's what you want if I can't provide more information on your thread.

Okay

 

[Brahmatman]

Yeaps.

The Source Wall in the comic Metronome represented the same thing as in the comic with Lucifer, Aleph. The Source Wall was presented there as the end of creation.

It doesn't really matter. As I said, you can use the expression "comp dc" outside of this site, but for the purpose of this wiki, what you say is irrelevant.

This is a very strange thing

 

[Brahmatman]

#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]

Everything is basically correct, except that the supreme being is called the Unknowable

 

[LazyMortician]

Its looks like you haven't read Lucifer [2018] or don't understand the comic storyline.
You have always insisted that Yahweh is the original presence, even though the two are different.

•The presence is the same as the source, it is outside the source wall [Here]. Meaning that all-creation in the greater omniverse, including the underworld, is part of him
•Yahweh is omnipotent only in his domain, because his plans do not reach void yama [underworld]. If he was truly almighty, then that place wouldn't be a problem for his plans
•You mention that Yahweh is eternal and infinite, but you ignore external forces, He is eternal because humans worship him, he is infinite because humans think so, he is the god of his creation, this concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the god.
•in other god realms, they have their own gods.
•You think Yahweh is the creator of everything, but He is limited to His creation. You ignore all the evidence I provide with that nonsensical logic

Did you read the 2000 Lucifer comic? Hasn't it been explained several times that there are other creations out there, not only Yahweh is considered god, but most other religious concepts also have their own creator god? [Here]

Silkman is also not part of Yahweh's creation, this clearly shows that Yahweh is finite while the presence is infinite.

Yahweh's creation was not perfect, even though his creation was only a silver city and the physical world, therefore he needed elaine belloc to repair the creation, which was intended to be the physical world, because what was removed was the physical world. [Here]

You still don't understand what I mean...

Yahweh and Lucifer operate in their lower manifestations. Lucifers avatar in 2018. I talk about True Lucifer and True Yahweh and have never connected them to Presence.

I did not say otherwise, on the contrary I emphasized this many times. Even though the Yahweh of 2018 is portrayed as omnipotent, he is dependent on Lucifer. Getting the plan there is no problem, it has never been a problem. What we see in Lucifer Vol 1 is that Yahweh does not need Lucifer and can easily destroy him just as he created him. This situation changes completely in Vol 3.

The phrase "infinite and eternal" really indicates that it is beginningless. He always existed, people changed him, Lucifer and the history of creation with their dreams. In Lucifer Vol 1, there are creators before him, but since he is infinite, his true self is one with the Void, and the dreams deemed him worthy of Godhood itself. Stop talking about creation as the physical world, you're practically declaring that you haven't read the series.

Yahweh is omniscient?

•The book of destiny knows everything and is a gift from father time
•There are other pantheons with their own creator gods

You cannot deny the facts that I convey, the presence/the source/the overvoid existed before father time, father time existed before destiny, dreams existed before the gods including Yahweh and other gods.

It made sense that destiny said "I existed before the first god", because he existed before the dream of the endless existed.

Perpetua is the first creator and exists beyond the 5th dimension, The original presence existed before the first creation, where there was father time and mother night.

No one escapes death, they only slow death but do not avoid it, he couldn't save his child from death.

The hierarchy is not wrong, everything is correct based on what I explained

#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]

There are things that are left out of the book of destiny. There are things Delirium knows that are not in the book. The book doesn't actually include everything. The extents of Night and Time are extensions of Lucifer's will. Existing before something does not indicate a clear superiority of power.

Lucifer cannot resist Death after he dies, but he can never truly die. Even if he dies, he comes back to maintain duality. Much more powerful than Endless, he can destroy them. I agree that Yahweh represents a higher being.

 

[Brahmatman]

The phrase "infinite and eternal" really indicates that it is beginningless. He always existed, people changed him, Lucifer and the history of creation with their dreams. In Lucifer Vol 1, there are creators before him, but since he is infinite, his true self is one with the Void, and the dreams deemed him worthy of Godhood itself. Stop talking about creation as the physical world, you're practically declaring that you haven't read the series.

This is confirmed by official sources

In the nothingness after what came before, a power later
known as both the Source and the Presence sparks the Big
Bang that creates the universe. Attempts to study creation
by a future scientist named Krona interfere with the mo-
ment of creation, shattering what would have been a sin-
gle universe into a multiverse, as well as a parallel antimat-
ter universe. Tachyons projected by Krona create entropy,
evil, and chaos where none would have existed, through
all of eternity. The newly divided light and dark aspects
of the multiverse become personified with the creation of
the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor, powerful beings of the
matter and antimatter universes whose conflict lasts until
the present era.

In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.

For most of history, those that believed they
knew the most about the Source Wall in Earth’s universe,
The New Gods, thought that the wall provided a sanctu-
ary behind which existed the Source, a cosmic conscious-
ness they equated with the Presence or the creator entity
behind the cosmos itself.

The truth of creation is unknowable
Though the full truth of the time before the beginning of the universe is unknowable, there are events that are said to
have occurred. The New Gods of Apokalips and New Genesis tell that this was the time of the First World and then the
Second World, when the Old Gods of the Godworld watched over the adventures of the first hero, Aurakles. During this
period, the first of the forces known as the Endless also came into being.

 

[Brahmatman]

They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.

As you said that the Silver City is part of the multiverse, but it is not, which is confirmed by the DC guidebook

Heaven itself is an afterworld, home to the souls of those
who died deserving of paradise as their eternal reward
for whatever righteous and courageous lives they may
have led. The Silver City is not home to these spirits and
is distinctly not the same as Heaven. The Silver City is a
physical outpost used by the hosts of Heaven when deal-
ing with mortal creation and it exists outside (or “above”)
creation. Mortals reputedly couldn’t survive contact with
even its mere environment as only spirit is able to survive
such sights and sounds. It is home base to the four hosts
that serve the Presence, the great angelic armies of the
Bull Host, the Eagle Host, the Lion Host, and the Host of
Man (or Guardian Angels)

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

There definitely are ties between DeMatteis' works and Morrison's continuity wise, as well as a couple other connections you can make.

This thread seems a bit cluttered with discussions as is, but feel free to message me if you're curious what I'm talking about.