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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

LazyMortician said:
You're trying to impose your ideas on people, but the truth is much more nuanced. Yahweh is infinite and eternal. They are found in the Void, in voids like Night. Destiny, on the other hand, depends on his creation, but for other creations, there are representatives of destiny inspired by him and dependent on him, such as Basanos.
Click to expand...
Its looks like you haven't read Lucifer [2018] or don't understand the comic storyline.
You have always insisted that Yahweh is the original presence, even though the two are different.

•The presence is the same as the source, it is outside the source wall [Here]. Meaning that all-creation in the greater omniverse, including the underworld, is part of him
•Yahweh is omnipotent only in his domain, because his plans do not reach void yama [underworld]. If he was truly almighty, then that place wouldn't be a problem for his plans
•You mention that Yahweh is eternal and infinite, but you ignore external forces, He is eternal because humans worship him, he is infinite because humans think so, he is the god of his creation, this concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the god.
•in other god realms, they have their own gods.
•You think Yahweh is the creator of everything, but He is limited to His creation. You ignore all the evidence I provide with that nonsensical logic

Did you read the 2000 Lucifer comic? Hasn't it been explained several times that there are other creations out there, not only Yahweh is considered god, but most other religious concepts also have their own creator god? [Here]

Silkman is also not part of Yahweh's creation, this clearly shows that Yahweh is finite while the presence is infinite.

Yahweh's creation was not perfect, even though his creation was only a silver city and the physical world, therefore he needed elaine belloc to repair the creation, which was intended to be the physical world, because what was removed was the physical world. [Here]

Yahweh is omniscient?

•The book of destiny knows everything and is a gift from father time
•There are other pantheons with their own creator gods

You cannot deny the facts that I convey, the presence/the source/the overvoid existed before father time, father time existed before destiny, dreams existed before the gods including Yahweh and other gods.

It made sense that destiny said "I existed before the first god", because he existed before the dream of the endless existed.

Perpetua is the first creator and exists beyond the 5th dimension, The original presence existed before the first creation, where there was father time and mother night.

No one escapes death, they only slow death but do not avoid it, he couldn't save his child from death.
LazyMortician said:
That's why I don't use composite hierarchy anyway. Each summer may not be loyal to the other, which is very natural. We cannot have a holistic idea by blending them with completely independent expressions. There are many Lucifers in DC, but there is only one Morningstar. His Father's Light became perfect through him. It doesn't make sense for me to say Lucifer > Overvoid and Source because I don't combine them under the same hierarchy.
Click to expand...
The hierarchy is not wrong, everything is correct based on what I explained

#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]
 
Last edited:
PrinceStories said:
Alright but are you also going to bring material comics from some Animal man and Doom patrol?. Sorry to bother you again.
Click to expand...
Anything that can be used. The sorting will come later with what does and doesn't enough fit DeMatteis' stories.
 
LazyMortician said:
Yeaps.
Click to expand...
The Source Wall in the comic Metronome represented the same thing as in the comic with Lucifer, Aleph. The Source Wall was presented there as the end of creation.
LazyMortician said:
It doesn't really matter. As I said, you can use the expression "comp dc" outside of this site, but for the purpose of this wiki, what you say is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
This is a very strange thing
 
Ramasugita11 said:
#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]
Click to expand...
Everything is basically correct, except that the supreme being is called the Unknowable
 
Ramasugita11 said:
Its looks like you haven't read Lucifer [2018] or don't understand the comic storyline.
You have always insisted that Yahweh is the original presence, even though the two are different.

•The presence is the same as the source, it is outside the source wall [Here]. Meaning that all-creation in the greater omniverse, including the underworld, is part of him
•Yahweh is omnipotent only in his domain, because his plans do not reach void yama [underworld]. If he was truly almighty, then that place wouldn't be a problem for his plans
•You mention that Yahweh is eternal and infinite, but you ignore external forces, He is eternal because humans worship him, he is infinite because humans think so, he is the god of his creation, this concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the god.
•in other god realms, they have their own gods.
•You think Yahweh is the creator of everything, but He is limited to His creation. You ignore all the evidence I provide with that nonsensical logic

Did you read the 2000 Lucifer comic? Hasn't it been explained several times that there are other creations out there, not only Yahweh is considered god, but most other religious concepts also have their own creator god? [Here]

Silkman is also not part of Yahweh's creation, this clearly shows that Yahweh is finite while the presence is infinite.

Yahweh's creation was not perfect, even though his creation was only a silver city and the physical world, therefore he needed elaine belloc to repair the creation, which was intended to be the physical world, because what was removed was the physical world. [Here]
Click to expand...
You still don't understand what I mean...

Yahweh and Lucifer operate in their lower manifestations. Lucifers avatar in 2018. I talk about True Lucifer and True Yahweh and have never connected them to Presence.

I did not say otherwise, on the contrary I emphasized this many times. Even though the Yahweh of 2018 is portrayed as omnipotent, he is dependent on Lucifer. Getting the plan there is no problem, it has never been a problem. What we see in Lucifer Vol 1 is that Yahweh does not need Lucifer and can easily destroy him just as he created him. This situation changes completely in Vol 3.

The phrase "infinite and eternal" really indicates that it is beginningless. He always existed, people changed him, Lucifer and the history of creation with their dreams. In Lucifer Vol 1, there are creators before him, but since he is infinite, his true self is one with the Void, and the dreams deemed him worthy of Godhood itself. Stop talking about creation as the physical world, you're practically declaring that you haven't read the series.
Ramasugita11 said:
Yahweh is omniscient?

•The book of destiny knows everything and is a gift from father time
•There are other pantheons with their own creator gods

You cannot deny the facts that I convey, the presence/the source/the overvoid existed before father time, father time existed before destiny, dreams existed before the gods including Yahweh and other gods.

It made sense that destiny said "I existed before the first god", because he existed before the dream of the endless existed.

Perpetua is the first creator and exists beyond the 5th dimension, The original presence existed before the first creation, where there was father time and mother night.

No one escapes death, they only slow death but do not avoid it, he couldn't save his child from death.

The hierarchy is not wrong, everything is correct based on what I explained

#edit
Yahweh, he is the avatar of god [the source/the presence/the overvoid], the source manifestation also once fought against Darkseid [ avatar of the source/the presence/the overvoid]
Click to expand...
There are things that are left out of the book of destiny. There are things Delirium knows that are not in the book. The book doesn't actually include everything. The extents of Night and Time are extensions of Lucifer's will. Existing before something does not indicate a clear superiority of power.

Lucifer cannot resist Death after he dies, but he can never truly die. Even if he dies, he comes back to maintain duality. Much more powerful than Endless, he can destroy them. I agree that Yahweh represents a higher being.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
LazyMortician said:
The phrase "infinite and eternal" really indicates that it is beginningless. He always existed, people changed him, Lucifer and the history of creation with their dreams. In Lucifer Vol 1, there are creators before him, but since he is infinite, his true self is one with the Void, and the dreams deemed him worthy of Godhood itself. Stop talking about creation as the physical world, you're practically declaring that you haven't read the series.
Click to expand...
This is confirmed by official sources

In the nothingness after what came before, a power later
known as both the Source and the Presence sparks the Big
Bang that creates the universe. Attempts to study creation
by a future scientist named Krona interfere with the mo-
ment of creation, shattering what would have been a sin-
gle universe into a multiverse, as well as a parallel antimat-
ter universe. Tachyons projected by Krona create entropy,
evil, and chaos where none would have existed, through
all of eternity. The newly divided light and dark aspects
of the multiverse become personified with the creation of
the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor, powerful beings of the
matter and antimatter universes whose conflict lasts until
the present era.

In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.

For most of history, those that believed they
knew the most about the Source Wall in Earth’s universe,
The New Gods, thought that the wall provided a sanctu-
ary behind which existed the Source, a cosmic conscious-
ness they equated with the Presence or the creator entity
behind the cosmos itself.

The truth of creation is unknowable
Though the full truth of the time before the beginning of the universe is unknowable, there are events that are said to
have occurred. The New Gods of Apokalips and New Genesis tell that this was the time of the First World and then the
Second World, when the Old Gods of the Godworld watched over the adventures of the first hero, Aurakles. During this
period, the first of the forces known as the Endless also came into being.
 
LazyMortician said:
They were separate until Flashpoint, when the three universes allegedly merged. That's why I separate the two. Since the City in Lucifer is not included in these restrictions, it does not make sense to include them in the current cosmology. This is disrespectful to Mike and Neil.
Click to expand...
As you said that the Silver City is part of the multiverse, but it is not, which is confirmed by the DC guidebook

Heaven itself is an afterworld, home to the souls of those
who died deserving of paradise as their eternal reward
for whatever righteous and courageous lives they may
have led. The Silver City is not home to these spirits and
is distinctly not the same as Heaven. The Silver City is a
physical outpost used by the hosts of Heaven when deal-
ing with mortal creation and it exists outside (or “above”)
creation. Mortals reputedly couldn’t survive contact with
even its mere environment as only spirit is able to survive
such sights and sounds. It is home base to the four hosts
that serve the Presence, the great angelic armies of the
Bull Host, the Eagle Host, the Lion Host, and the Host of
Man (or Guardian Angels)
 
Brahmatman said:
As you said that the Silver City is part of the multiverse, but it is not, which is confirmed by the DC guidebook

Heaven itself is an afterworld, home to the souls of those
who died deserving of paradise as their eternal reward
for whatever righteous and courageous lives they may
have led. The Silver City is not home to these spirits and
is distinctly not the same as Heaven. The Silver City is a
physical outpost used by the hosts of Heaven when deal-
ing with mortal creation and it exists outside (or “above”)
creation. Mortals reputedly couldn’t survive contact with
even its mere environment as only spirit is able to survive
such sights and sounds. It is home base to the four hosts
that serve the Presence, the great angelic armies of the
Bull Host, the Eagle Host, the Lion Host, and the Host of
Man (or Guardian Angels)
Click to expand...
I never said Silver City was part of the multiverse, but rather emphasized that it was not part of created things and was not the same as heaven. In the Lucifer series, Silver City is also referred to as heaven, but it is still not part of created things or has the true scope of heaven. A place where God's throne and his divine word are located. Silver City clearly transcends creation. And their interpretations of Silver City, later or current, are nowhere near Mike and Neil's and are grossly distorted.

Anyway, as I said, composite hierarchy should never come into effect on this wiki. I say the same thing for other verses. Only very close studies can be combined.
 
LazyMortician said:
never said Silver City was part of the multiverse, but rather emphasized that it was not part of created things and was not the same as heaven.
Click to expand...
The guidebook says the same thing.

LazyMortician said:
In the Lucifer series, Silver City is also referred to as heaven, but it is still not part of created things or has the true scope of heaven.
Click to expand...
And guidebook
LazyMortician said:
Silver City clearly transcends creation. And their interpretations of Silver City, later or current, are nowhere near Mike and Neil's and are grossly distorted.
Click to expand...
Is it written somewhere that the Silver City of Cary is located outside of all Dc? I definitely haven't seen anything like this. Why do you interpret it this way and not as outside the physical multiverse? Why should this particular interpretation be correct? The guidebook erased these contradictions and left the same description as the authors did in their comics. If someone says that a certain structure is superior to a given hierarchical structure in the past, and new information is given that this structure has become inferior to the structure that it was superior to, then the more recent information will be used.

The SOG was introduced later in the chronology, but Darkseid and the other gods have existed in it since the beginning of DC cosmology. Do you understand? Introducing new things later does not cancel out something old.
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
There definitely are ties between DeMatteis' works and Morrison's continuity wise, as well as a couple other connections you can make.

This thread seems a bit cluttered with discussions as is, but feel free to message me if you're curious what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...
Some of Morrison's old stories certainly have ties to DeMatteis' contributions.
 
Jolman1 said:
Based on the discussions here, I did not see any contradictions between the cosmologies of these authors...
Click to expand...
We have already discussed this and explained the reason earlier in the discussion.
 
Last edited:
LazyMortician said:
You still don't understand what I mean...

Yahweh and Lucifer operate in their lower manifestations. Lucifers avatar in 2018. I talk about True Lucifer and True Yahweh and have never connected them to Presence.

I did not say otherwise, on the contrary I emphasized this many times. Even though the Yahweh of 2018 is portrayed as omnipotent, he is dependent on Lucifer. Getting the plan there is no problem, it has never been a problem. What we see in Lucifer Vol 1 is that Yahweh does not need Lucifer and can easily destroy him just as he created him. This situation changes completely in Vol 3.
Click to expand...
Can you provide scans/images to support your opinion?

Lucifer with lower manifestations? Are you serious? it was never stated that way.
Vishnu says he never met lucifer without wings, according to him lucifer without wings is just an avatar.[Here] but that's the real lucifer, this is the real avatar of lucifer [Here] and after entering the void he regained his wings [Here], [Here], [Here], [Here] and [Here].

LazyMortician said:
The phrase "infinite and eternal" really indicates that it is beginningless. He always existed, people changed him, Lucifer and the history of creation with their dreams. In Lucifer Vol 1, there are creators before him, but since he is infinite, his true self is one with the Void, and the dreams deemed him worthy of Godhood itself. Stop talking about creation as the physical world, you're practically declaring that you haven't read the series.

There are things that are left out of the book of destiny. There are things Delirium knows that are not in the book. The book doesn't actually include everything. The extents of Night and Time are extensions of Lucifer's will. Existing before something does not indicate a clear superiority of power.
Click to expand...
He is infinite and eternal because he was formed by external forces [Here], he originally existed because he was formed by human thoughts[Here], the pure energy, gods born in the dreaming realm is not from the void [Here], unless you can prove it. even if it is true, it also means nothing because the void is not only that and everything [sphere of the gods] only exists in a perpetua creation.

Without external forces they are weak and hungry
Here, Here, Here, Here

The physical world is erased bro, they discuss about the physical world which they call creation, The silver city was also part of Yahweh's creation but what was omitted was the physical world:
Here, Here, Here.
Behind creation there is Void [Here] after that elaine belloc went to the silver city to recreate creation, meaning the silver city was not obliterated [Here].
The void is beyond the physical world and also beyond the metaphysical world, because there was creation before Yahweh [Here]

I don't remember about delirium, you equate night and time as physical manifestations? it is an abstract concept beyond the physical, even Lucifer is bound by the rules of destiny book.
LazyMortician said:
Lucifer cannot resist Death after he dies, but he can never truly die. Even if he dies, he comes back to maintain duality. Much more powerful than Endless, he can destroy them. I agree that Yahweh represents a higher being.
Click to expand...
All gods [Here] experience the cycle of life and death, even dream and destiny also experience it, all die [the sphere of the gods and the physical world] except death [Here],[Here], [Here], [Here]
Meaning they are not really dead, Lucifer knew it was impossible to avoid death, they only slowed it down [Here] he also killed silkman.
You can prevent death by limiting her power, even wizards once wanted to do that but all they caught was morpheus
Yahweh is limited to His creation
 
Last edited:
Brahmatman said:
And I don’t reach Brahma’s plan?

These are more difficult. Morrison pointed out that this trinity forms a unity. But there is also a strange thing: the Unknowable itself is not on the map. The Unknowable easily makes a crack on the Overvoid using the Source as ink, simply by drawing on white paper. He, based on his name, is Unknowable to them
Click to expand...
It could be that The Unknowable is a creature like the hands and cosmic raptor races, located outside the source wall
 
Ramasugita11 said:
It could be that The Unknowable is a creature like the hands and cosmic raptor races, located outside the source wall
Click to expand...
Yes, it was he who created the entire Dc cosmology (at least in the old comics), where everything Dc is the tree of the Cabal, and the Unknowable Aif Soph. Morrison barely mentioned him in his interviews, emphasizing that he is too unknowable and a transcendental entity who is an artist who paints on canvas (Overvoid). In the older comics it was stated that the Unknowable created the void, but not sure if he created the Overvoid in the later ones
 
Elizio33 said:
We have already discussed this and explained the reason earlier in the discussion.
Click to expand...
The Unknowable = Demattheis's God, if we were to use Demattheis's words outside the cosmology map. But in any case, there were no adequate reasoning, except for subjective reasons
 
Brahmatman said:
The Unknowable = Demattheis's God, if we were to use Demattheis's words outside the cosmology map. But in any case, there were no adequate reasoning, except for subjective reasons
Click to expand...
The Unknowable is not DeMatteis' God, what are you talking about? It was a word used by Morrison to describe what lies beyond the Source Wall which he referred to as Monitor-Mind, Source and The Unknowable. He didn't say that the Unknowable is Demattheis's God or the Supreme God.
 
LazyMortician said:
Lucifer cannot resist Death after he dies, but he can never truly die. Even if he dies, he comes back to maintain duality. Much more powerful than Endless, he can destroy them. I agree that Yahweh represents a higher being.
Click to expand...
This is a big misconception. Just because you are stronger than something does not mean you are free from its concept. Darkseid subdued the Black Racer, but he is not stronger than him?
 
Elizio33 said:
The Unknowable is not DeMatteis' God, what are you talking about? It was a word used by Morrison to describe what lies beyond the Source Wall which he referred to as Monitor-Mind, Source and The Unknowable. He didn't say that the Unknowable is Demattheis's God or the Supreme God.
Click to expand...
The Unknowable is the general archetype of the creator and creator deity. For him, the Overvoid is just paper, and the Source is ink, which he uses to simply draw
 
Brahmatman said:
The Unknowable is the general archetype of the creator and creator deity. For him, the Overvoid is just paper, and the Source is ink, which he uses to simply draw
Click to expand...
This stuff was just Morrison's words in an interview. We've never seen this in the comics.
 
Brahmatman said:
Actually, we saw a crack form in the Overvoid. Morrison took the Unknowable from this comic. Ultimately, his interviews do not contradict anything
Click to expand...
Morrison also considered the Presence to be the creator of the material world and didn't mention the "Unknowable" in his later stories, except in the map of the multiverse, but with the first point, who really created everything in Morrison's Cosmology?

The Presence?

The Unknowable?

I don't think there were implied to be the same and even if this was the case, this was changed over the years with a new creation origins
 
Elizio33 said:
The Presence?
Click to expand...
Only the physical multiverse and Heaven

In the beginning, the Presence created the universe, push-
ing back the primordial darkness to the fringes of creation.
From the resultant chaosplasm, the Presence created first
Heaven and then the physical structure of the multiverse.
Within that physical structure, the Presence created the
Silver City to act as the base of operations for his servants
while finishing their assigned tasks in populating the new
existence with concepts and worlds and stars and living
things and all other such phenomena.

Elizio33 said:
The Unknowable?
Click to expand...
All DC

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

Elizio33 said:
Morrison also considered the Presence to be the creator of the material world and didn't mention the "Unknowable" in his later stories, except in the map of the multiverse, but with the first point, who really created everything in Morrison's Cosmology?
Click to expand...
That the comics of the past, that subsequent guidebooks confirm that Yahweh created only the physical multiverse, and has nothing to do with everything DC. The Unknowable is never shown or indicated, but caused all the events of the multiverse, this does not in any way cancel the character's presence
 
Morrison sometimes contradicts himself in his stories. There are a few examples to show this.
 
Brahmatman said:
The Unknowable = Demattheis's God, if we were to use Demattheis's words outside the cosmology map. But in any case, there were no adequate reasoning, except for subjective reasons
Click to expand...
I didn't see anything interesting in the comic
Doom patrol 1987 #83-89
From what I see, it has nothing to do with the cosmic races outside the source wall. The writer of this story is Rachel porllack.

Maybe this story has something to do with the Sandman comic [ the dreaming universe 2018 #19-20 ].
Kabbalah

Demattheis's doesn't know what the overvoid is, the stories he writes seem to only exist in the sphere of the gods
This map was created in 2014 and perhaps The Unknowable is referring to races like the hands and cosmic raptor that appeared in comics in 2018 as the creators of the DC universe.
 
Ramasugita11 said:
I didn't see anything interesting in the comic
Doom patrol 1987 #83-89
From what I see, it has nothing to do with the cosmic races outside the source wall. The writer of this story is Rachel porllack.

Maybe this story has something to do with the Sandman comic [ the dreaming universe 2018 #19-20 ].
Kabbalah

Demattheis's doesn't know what the overvoid is, the stories he writes seem to only exist in the sphere of the gods
This map was created in 2014 and perhaps The Unknowable is referring to races like the hands and cosmic raptor that appeared in comics in 2018 as the creators of the DC universe.
Click to expand...
He can't relate to them, he created the Dc multiverse by drawing it on the Overvoid using the Source as ink. He talked about the Unknowable even before the appearance of the map, calling it God.
Moreover, even the Overvoid does not know who the Unknowable is, because being the only being in his opinion, he was unable to recognize the one who created or drew the crack on his infinite self. So the Unknowable is totally superior to both the Overvoid, the Source, and their servants.
 
Interrupting the daily cosmology debate to plug this thread:
vsbattles.com

DCU General Discussion Thread

The DCEU is dead, long live the DCU! This is a thread to discuss anything related to the new DC Universe (DCU) helmed by James Gunn and Peter Safran, which plans to feature a unified continuity across movies, TV shows, video games and animation. If you’re looking for the discussion thread for...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
In case anyone’s interested in discussing the new James Gunn DC universe.
 
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