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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Speaking of The Thought Robot
I did want to bring up this thing for a while now
What is “The Story of Superman"? i can understand that it is effectively the very narrative concept of superman?

Grant Morrison supposedly views it as such an important thing, to the point of getting upset that people called it "metafictional” and stated that it was as real as real people or some dumb philosophical shit like that i dont remember

Mandrakk also called it unstoppable and indestructible
It is also believed to be the “flaw" that was referenced several times in final crisis: superman beyond?

Yeah so what the hell is it?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Speaking of The Thought Robot
I did want to bring up this thing for a while now
What is “The Story of Superman"? i can understand that it is effectively the very narrative concept of superman?

Grant Morrison supposedly views it as such an important thing, to the point of getting upset that people called it "metafictional” and stated that it was as real as real people or some dumb philosophical shit like that i dont remember

Mandrakk also called it unstoppable and indestructible
It is also believed to be the “flaw" that was referenced several times in final crisis: superman beyond?

Yeah so what the hell is it?
Click to expand...
It is just a reference to the ideals that Superman has traditionally represented and inspired in the real world:

Truth, justice, freedom, and dignity for everybody. Being a genuinely good and decent person, who tries hard to help things get better for others and the world at large.
 
Hmm well, i have heard arguments about Cosmic Armour Superman embodying this narrative concept
Would this change his tiering?

Also, does it affect Superman?
I have heard things about it bending the very story to make “good and hope" (Superman) win every fight eventually
Is that true?
 
I think there is more then enough evidence to at least acknowledge it

main-qimg-f00538e54ed0af3a61ad41ba366d7ea7.webp

IGN Comics: All right, let's dive into it. So storytelling has often been compared to illusion and slight of hand, where the illusionist or writer uses big loud movements with his right hand to distract the crowd from his left, then when the crowd looks over to the left hand to catch the trick, the big turn occurs in the right. On several levels, it seems like you've pulled off the ultimate storytelling slight of hand with Final Crisis. You began with this epic superhero event boiled down to good vs. evil, then introduced these crazy, fourth-wall bending elements in Superman Beyond. But when it came down to it in the end, the story really did end being this ultimate good vs. evil story – just not the one we expected. Was this deliberate on your part?

Morrison: Yeah, completely. As you know, from the very start of this, it was kind of me trying to do a 'final' statement on DCU superhero comics before I go off and have a rethink. Unmaking the DC Universe to the point of destruction then showing how its own internal rules will work to homeostatically reset it. Superman always saves the day or he's not Superman. It's a self-perpetuating idea. So I wanted to get in everything I felt about that, and I knew it was ambitious, but I actually do think we nailed it.
Click to expand...
IGN Comics: You stated that you wanted Final Crisis and Beyond to be about the nature of story itself, and I definitely think you've succeeded in that regard, particularly in Beyond and FC #7. Again, there are so many layers to this, and I'd just like to get your thoughts on a few things I noticed:

First off, you've spoken about the power of story, and the power of the DC Universe in particular, and expressed a certain level of awe at how these creations and these stories outlast their creators significantly. This sentiment seems to play out directly when Zillo Valla faces down Mandrakk's dream of the ultimate void by telling him she found a story in the germ world that's unstoppable and indestructible, about a child rocketed to Earth from a doomed planet. Is that pretty much what you were going for there?

Morrison: Yeah, pretty much. The fact that in the DC Universe there is a story about a genuinely good and moral man who can't be beat, and the fact that the DC Universe exists in the real world means that humanity made up a story about a genuinely moral man who can't be beat. That's a really cool story to learn from, especially when we're under a lot of pressure in the world today from lots of angles. So again, like I said to you earlier, it's the idea of acknowledging a genuine depth of reality to these fictions. It's not the fourth wall, it's not post-modern or meta – I hate those terms because I think they just undermine the simple notion that everything we can experience is real, including dreams and stories. These characters are in here, in the universe with us, and they have s--t to tell us. And that's what I find really exciting. They're real in the sense that you can hold them in your hands and interact with them. They don't need to pretend to live in New York. It's much more real than that – they're actually alive in our hands.
Click to expand...
This Thing does seem to be very important for superman

We cant just ignore it imo

Also, what would be its range? This entire thing about it not being “Meta"
Can that hint at these abstract stories transcend even The Overvoid and The Writer?
Or just flowerly language?
 
I am not sure, but we need such a great change explicitly established in-story, not just via interview statements.

Then again, in the Doomsday Clock event, Doctor Manhattan noticed how the entire multiverse kept changing based on how Superman's origin was updated by different writers.
 
I was mostly joking. I’m not sure if this is something that can be put on an indexing page like a VBW profile, but it is kind of funny the author essentially acknowledges “yeah cool but he’s Superman tho”
 
LordTracer said:
That’s not wrong tbh
Click to expand...
I mean, what would we even put on the page?

“Story of Superman: basically, Superman wins because he’s Superman”

whilst it’s really cool Superman plays some sort of abstract role on the DC multiverse, I fail to see how it’s much different from other protagonists in stories about heroism. That being said, I’m not too versed in this “story of superman” stuff, I’ve only had brief run ins with it on YouTube and other third party (if that’s the right term) sites and sources.
 
Antvasima said:
I am not sure, but we need such a great change explicitly established in-story, not just via interview statements.

Then again, in the Doomsday Clock event, Doctor Manhattan noticed how the entire multiverse kept changing based on how Superman's origin was updated by different writers.
Click to expand...
we should focus more on each Upgrade every DC cosmology raise tier
 
Antvasima said:
Then again, in the Doomsday Clock event, Doctor Manhattan noticed how the entire multiverse kept changing based on how Superman's origin was updated by different writers.
Click to expand...
Yup, again Superman is definitely established as a literal integral part of DC comics

Should not be ignored imo
 
As Lucifer morningstar said, The Void is infinite and Eternal, the portion of it that can be filled in the END amounts to ZERO.

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

This is basically The Void, NHTkenshin2.
 
Vondoom said:
As Lucifer morningstar said, The Void is infinite and Eternal, the portion of it that can be filled in the END amounts to ZERO.

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

This is basically The Void, NHTkenshin2.
Click to expand...
You did not prove that this “Void” is independent of the number of layers/dimensions.
 
It is independent as being the canvas or "background" of the vertigo cosmology which contains creations before and after that of the presence with their higher dimensions and all that and the portion of it that can be "filled" amounts to "Zero".
 
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