Examining RWBY scaling for high tier characters

[Kaltias]

@Kalt Because she was able to block her attacks with her barriers

Yeah but those barriers scale to nothing because nothing has ever broken them unless i'm missing something

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They scale to her TK as they were made with the same ability

 

[Ryukama]

@Weekly Thanks.

Also I posted something on your wall ovo

 

[Kaltias]

No they weren't? Forcefield Creation =/= TK

Also durability doesn't scale to AP unless you harm the durable character

 

[Desmond253]

Also Dance Dance Infiltration her arms and legs light up just before her arrows explode, so unless there is some explosion dust that is only used in that one episode and never brought up again it can be assume that fire dust is also being used during that scene aswell unless we want to say that she was using her maiden powers right there aswell because she also creates ice which ruby blocks.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No they weren't? Forcefield Creation =/= TK

Also durability doesn't scale to AP unless you harm the durable character

Her barriers are made with her TK

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also Dance Dance Infiltration her arms and legs light up just before her arrows explode, so unless there is some explosion dust that is only used in that one episode and never brought up again it can be assume that fire dust is also being used during that scene aswell unless we want to say that she was using her maiden powers right there aswell because she also creates ice which ruby blocks.

Cinder doesnt use Fire dust, she uses Lava Dust, and yes, it is only used in that one scene and never brought up again, youre correct. she didnt create ice, she created shards of glass to use as projectiles, have you even been reading what im saying? Ive already explained all of this to you several times.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So...

There was a black out (Lightning struck my ******* house) so what is going on right now?

 

[Desmond253]

Because I have asked you time and again to show me a scan that proves that she is using her maiden powers, I don't think what I'm not asking for something unreasonable, show me irrefutable that she is indeed using her maiden powers and not just using dust. Show me a scan, or a picture or something, don't just say its not dust. The fact that your counter argument is simply that she is using maiden powers without actually proving that she is using maiden powers is rediculous, If she is using dust to make the glass weapons it doesn't seem like that much of a leap to say she used dust to cast the fireballs especially when you just admitted that she used lava dust. I'm trying to reach here, but you have to meet me at some point, all I'm asking you to do is show me, not tell me, show me.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Really, what is going on?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Ricsi Basically Desmond doesnt understand that Cinder only uses dust to make weapons and is insisting that she uses dust for everything

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Desmond Here, she only uses Dust to make weapons in her fight with pyrrha, everything else is Maiden powers

 

[Desmond253]

That is not what i'm saying at all, what I am saying is that during the fight with Gylnda in episode one she used dust to preform her fire techniques I based this off of both the glowing and the flourishing of her arms when preforming said techniques and the lack of evidence she is using her maiden powers.

Don't put words in my mouth

 

[WeeklyBattles]

She has never once used dust to perform fire techniques. Not once in the entire series. Im not putting words inn your mouth im repeating exactly what youre saying.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi Basically Desmond doesnt understand that Cinder only uses dust to make weapons and is insisting that she uses dust for everything

I mean...

It's pretty obvious with how her eyes glow, she was trained by salem to use the maiden powers (which was visibly fire as well) and that her fight with raven makes it clear that its far more versatile than anything dust has ever done.

 

[Desmond253]

She has also only ever fought twice before the maiden were written into the lore and at both points she uses fire based techniques, when a maiden uses her powers only her eyes glow, when cinder fought during volumes 1 and 2 not only did her eyes glow , but also her arms and legs.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

She has also only ever fought twice before the maiden were written into the lore and at both points she uses fire based techniques, when a maiden uses her powers only her eyes glow, when cinder fought during volumes 1 and 2 not only did her eyes glow , but also her arms and legs.

There is such thing as retconning.

I think there actually was a point where they discussed this in podcast, especialy how she was supposed to use dust.

 

[Desmond253]

do you have a link?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That said, its made clear that, for the Fall maiden at least, glowing eye shows her using the powers. It wasn't supposed to be that, but ruby wa supposed to have grey hair, and I don't see anyone arguing that she only dyeing it.

 

[Desmond253]

people also aren't arguing that she is using her silver eyes during the first two volumes.

during her fight with pyrrha her arms don't glow and she doesn't move with the same flourishs that she does when fighting glynda.

Thing is I honestly don't care weither or not she is using her maiden powers in the fight, I just feel like I'm being treated like an idiot when it took this looks to get any evidence of Cinder only using her maiden powers in her fight with Glynda. It shouldn't have taken Hours to get a link that even attempts to prove me wrong. When you say she only uses dust to make Glass weapons and don't back it up with something it sounds like headcannon.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

because she visibly isn't, and it was already thought up by that point. It's a false equivalency and you should know that.

Wow! The animation wasn't as good and detailed after the animator died?

You are claiming that she isn't using the power that she risked her life to get. She is flying against pyrrha, and again, dust never showed anything on that level.

 

[Desmond253]

Then don't use it to belittle my argument

Are you saying that monty needed to be there to put a glowing effect on Cinder's clothes?

I'm saying that in that instance there is not enough evidence to claim that she is and I asked for proof to show me that when she was fighting glynda she was using her maiden powers. You said that during a podcast they mentioned retconning her fight with gylnda to say she used her maiden powers or something to that effect, do you have a link so I can listen to it.

Just because she uses it against Pyrrha doesn't mean she used it against Glynda, she wasn't actively trying to kill Glynda like she was with Pyrrha, different curcumstance bring out different responces in people.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes, Monty was all about making things look cool for no reason other than for them to look cool, something which is very evident in stuff he worked on versus stuff that was made after he passed

Cinder wasnt actively trying to kill Pyrrha either, she was toying with her the entire fight

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I didn't use silver eye's. The grey hair was a thing I used because it was a change made in canon decided by vriters, much like Cinder's powers.

Did you see the fights? Say whatever you will, but they dropped a lot of things.

Glowing eye maybe? Plus, I already answered that question.

Yes, exept that doesn't mean dust suddenly becomes more versatile than ever before. Also, didn't glynda refute ironwood when he assumed that?


Anyways, your point is a baseless assumption, ours has some proof:

-Dust never showed to be this versatile

-maiden powers can do that

-Cinder has maiden powers

-when someone uses them, their eyes glow

-her eyes were glowing.


I would like to introduce you to occam's razor

 

[Desmond253]

Most of Weiss' versatility comes from the varity of dust she uses so I wouldn't say dust isn't that versitile when compared to her fight with Glynda.

We know it was originally dust because the maidens hadn't been created yet, I'm asking for evidence that her fight with Glynda had been retconned to say she used her maiden powers instead of dust which you said you had heard. It's also simpler to say as writers we aren't going to retcon every fight for the sake of these new power especially when it serves no narative purpose to change said fights. Why create more work for yourself when you don't have to.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like a lot of the very good points Kalitas brought up are being outright ignored.

Can I get summaries of the new points made while I was gone?

 

[Desmond253]

I have nothing to say about what Kalitas brought up

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I feel like a lot of the very good points Kalitas brought up are being outright ignored.

I don't think she scales, but I belive conder was using her maiden powers still.

Plus, again, actual reasons to believe it, no reason to disbelieve it beyond something non-canon that was plain out changed, so occam's razor

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, just give me one instance of someone taking Glynda's telekinesis that would scale to Qrow/or someone breaking through her telekinesis and that issue is resolved. It was a defensive ability, it shouldn't scale to AP unless someone could damage/harm it.

Other than that I still see little reasoning for the scaling, although I am willing to go "8-B, likely High 7-C"

 

[TheRustyOne]

Some things:
1) The main issue about Qrow scaling from Cinder is that Maiden powers require training to be used properly (That's what Raven said when she pretended that Vernal was creating the storm)

I actually think this is true, this would also explain why Amber lost to Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald. Qrow stated that she was young and inexperience.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think I remember that being stated before. Do you know when exactly?

Then we can put this to rest.

The thread, or that specific argument.

Because there is clearly much left to be said on this thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Cinder

In the first five minutes of the series

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Cinder
In the first five minutes of the series

That's not furthering your argument or making a new point, I don't know where you're going with that. Please respond to Kalitas's points individually instead of restating old information.

This helps promote a healthy argument; if we make new claims/counterclaims instead of restating old claims, we help keep the thread clean and full of less heat.

 

[Ryukama]

That argument

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That argument

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Desmond253]

@Ricsi Here is a quote from the Ruby Wiki

On her upper back, in the keyhole of her dress, she has a black tattoo of what appears to be a pair of high heel shoes placed sole to sole, forming a heart shape inside. Whenever she uses the Dust that is sewn into her dress, the designs on the arms, back, and chest glow bright orange. Her eyes and earrings also glow.

i guess someone should go update the wiki cause apparently they have it wrong aswell

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Using a fanmade wiki is not proof.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I will breifly sum up some points and counterpoints made:

Direct Scaling Feats:

• Glynda Blocks a Fireball from Cinder
  • Some claim this feat is casual, especially considering she and the guy wanted to keep a low profile in the situation at hand.
  • This "Casual Feat" claim is supported by Cinder fireballing Ruby at a later time and Ruby surviving it, as well as the fact that no other hits/exchanges are made in that fight.
  • Even in the case of a direct scale, Kalitas claims that it wouldn't scale to AP as Glynda's forcefeild has not been broken by other characters before. He also mentions how there is no statement connecting her TK to Forcefields, this the two shouldn't be interchangeable.
  • Others have mentioned that it may take a while to get accustomed to the Maiden powers, evidenced by Mercury and Emerald giving Amber a fight. This is justified with an in-universe statement claiming how her inexperience helped cause her to be incapacitated.
• The "forced retreat argument"
  • I don't understand how this applies to scaling. As mentioned above, Cinder had just absorbed the Fall Maiden's powers, and likely had little control over them. It's natural that she wouldn't want to complicate things by fighting a hunter, and she's not the type to take a risk. This argument in itself doesn't provide for scaling, villians can over/underestimate heroes all the time.

Statements:

• Qrow states he can "Take on" a maiden with a group.
  • Incorrect. The situation in itself was referring to attacking the bandit camp and not the Maiden. This was at the beginning of Season 5, and Qrow had no way of knowing the status of the Spring Maiden in the camp itself or Raven's status as the Maiden, or her alliance with Cinder. This, I feel, is irrefutable, and an understandable misunderstanding of the situation.

• Watts states that Qrow could mean trouble for them.
  • Also incorrect. Watts was only referring to how much attention he could bring to them in a largescale fight. He didn't seem to have any lack in confidence in how easily they could beat him, just that

• Ospin comments of Hazel's stregnth, ergo Hazel should scale to pre-kid Ospin
  • While somewhat reasonable, Ospin would have been aware of Hazel's abilities for a long time due to his connection with his sister, and he's only warning his students. He's also saying this in a severely weakened state.

• Tyrian is sent to hunt a Maiden.
  • Hunt, especially in that context doesn't mean fight or kill all the times. He could simply be locating her or trying to attack them with stealth. Tyrian's abilities have been overestimated on another occasion from the same character, as well.

If I have missed anything, please tell me, and I will update this list.

If you have a rebuttal, please tell me which point you are refuting instead of generally rebutting my post, or dismissing it. That way I can get a clear response back to you without any misunderstandings.

Now, I will not use numbers or make tallys again, however I feel there are many, such as Kalitas, Desmond, and Myself who are contributing meaninfully to the conversation here, alongside Rusty. These aren't FRA-type agreements, rather they are actively debating against your points. Doesn't add to my argument, I'd just like the opposition to recognize that there are many people putting logic and reason to disprove points here.

I also recind my compromise agreement, I don't think there is enough evidence on the opposition as it stands.

 

[Desmond253]

Using a fanmade wiki is not proof.

If that wiki is not a trusted source then the link to it should be removed from the RWBY page.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, it's fine to link if it's supporting something that's already established in canon. As long as it isn't adding anything new, it's harmless.

Although that particular link might need to be looked at.