Everyone wants to upgrade this guy.

[FanofRPGs]

So I reread the issue with Aztek's self destruction and I found that this is the very same issue where Superman metabolized enough anti-sunlight energy to vaporize half a galaxy and was under great pain, his body literally breaking down to it and them assuming he had died (He didn't). The point is that 4-A is portrayed as an unthinkable limit Superman survived against all odds here. Even if this weakened him, it's a hell of a lot lower than the proposal for Aztek being low 2-C and yet he only barely scraped by. Plus what I noted prior for Aztek that he has no direct scaling feats or feats that hint at the cosmic scope other higher-D characters enjoy

 

[Antvasima]

I think that FanofRPGs makes sense. Also, please remember to always copy the text of long posts before you submit them.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@Antvasima, is it possible if you can link me the threads where all of Superman's resistances have been proposed?

I will work on my argument/case against MMH vs SBP soon, then I will check the 5-D firestorm thing, lastly I will read Genesis + WW #150 and determine where that stands.

Also, in Superman/Batman, Superman has 3 Source Wall related feats related to pinning and then freeing Darkseid from it and freeing Highfather's Scepter. Why are these feats hyped?

I need to work on speed too. I can tell that Byrne era seems Rel+/low FTL, afterwards before Mongul maybe FTL+ to MFTL, and only later on MFTL+

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Fan

MMH vs Prime was in Infinite Crisis #6. Idk why it's being used though, since a thorough look at the art shows MMH didn't even draw a drop of blood from Prime. Knocking someone back physically shouldn't let you scale to them.

People hype them because there was a piece of flowery language calling the power needed to pull the staff from the wall "unimaginable." That's the highlight "feat" from that storyline.

I will forever disagree with using WW breaking the Godwave scepter as a legitimate feat because it would be like me breaking a humongous battery plant and calling myself Tier 6.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@Fan
MMH vs Prime was in Infinite Crisis #6. Idk why it's being used though, since a thorough look at the art shows MMH didn't even draw a drop of blood from Prime. Knocking someone back physically shouldn't let you scale to them.

People hype them because there was a piece of flowery language calling the power needed to pull the staff from the wall "unimaginable." That's the highlight "feat" from that storyline.

I will forever disagree with using WW breaking the Godwave scepter as a legitimate feat because it would be like me breaking a humongous battery plant and calling myself Tier 6.

I am against the SBP thing but the thing exists, I am just trying to spell out MMH lasting a microsecond against a seriously trying SBP makes absolutely no sense given all of his other scaling feats

That's why? I thought it was something like conceptual manip or something dumb that's the reason

Wait, I assumed the Godwave was actively doing its thing when contained by the scepter, but it was in a dormant state? Is that what you're implying? I just assumed it was an outlier because it's far above the even floated-around low 2-C suggestion and is like 2-A++

Also, I haven't read it in a looong time and IK we're dealing with pre-infinite crisis here, but what is your standing on the Supes vs God Luthor fight? I remembered something like Luthor subconsciously causing himself to fail at actually one-shotting Supes.

 

[Antvasima]

@FanofRPGs

I am not good at finding old threads, and do not remember these particular discussions. I am also very overworked. My apologies.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Honestly, in my personal and honest opinion, due to the dynamics of the consistency of the feats for Superman, I see no reason against upgrading him. It is not unusual at all to have universe level and above characters in DC, DC is one of the most OP verses of all time and it would make much more sense if Superman got upgraded so that the other DC heroes get upgraded as well. I see more people agreeing that Superman should be way higher than solar system level every day, by DC fans and non-DC than more people saying that he should stay at solar system level and for good reasons and good evidence to back their claims up. That's what I wanted to say.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should not upgrade characters based on how many fans that want them to be as powerful as possible. My apologies.

 

[Firestorm808]

I am not against an upgrade should we be presented said good reasons and good evidence. I would very much like to cross-examine and document them.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Hmm, that's a good point.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also did WW tank that 4-D energy before the JLA fighting The Lord of Time and if that's the case it proves that the 4-D attack was mathematical as Lord of Time was the First Temporal 4-D ennemie, So it can't be Temporal 4-D.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Also did WW tank that 4-D energy before the JLA fighting The Lord of Time and if that's the case it proves that the 4-D attack was mathematical as Lord of Time was the First Temporal 4-D ennemie, So it can't be Temporal 4-D.

Scan?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

WW can withstand 4D power

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Fan

MMH surprise attacked Prime and didn't take any hits from him. He phased through one attack though.

It's just that I personally disagree with the scepter feat since breaking something that channels a power shouldn't let you scale to that power. That's only my personal interpretation of it though.

The only God Luthor I remember off the top of my head was after Infinite Crisis in the Black Ring storyline, so I don't know what fight you're talking about.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

MMH also tanked a punch later ,also Superboy wasn't off guard as he tried attacking MMH, so he wasn't caught off guard.

 

[FanofRPGs]

MMH also tanked a punch later ,also Superboy wasn't off guard as he tried attacking MMH, so he wasn't caught off guard.

I am looking at the scan and MMH caught him off guard by going intangible. SBP didn't expect that

And you need to prove SBP was using a full powered punch or the same level attacks he used to stomp the Supermen or tear apart the Antimonitor

 

[FanofRPGs]

@Fan
MMH surprise attacked Prime and didn't take any hits from him. He phased through one attack though.

It's just that I personally disagree with the scepter feat since breaking something that channels a power shouldn't let you scale to that power. That's only my personal interpretation of it though.

The only God Luthor I remember off the top of my head was after Infinite Crisis in the Black Ring storyline, so I don't know what fight you're talking about.

Yeah I meant that, hence I said "I know we're talking about pre-Infinite Crisis here" cuz it happened in like Action Comics 900

 

[Firestorm808]

• Wonder Woman can withstand attacks from 4-D when she's utilising four-dimensional energy. | JLA Vol 1 #25 January 1999
  • "And this is how I fold through the third dimension to draw on the gigantic energies of the fourth"
  • I do not believe that she is able to become universal, considering the opponents that she has fought and only drawing on the 4th dimension. She grows, but not to the extant comparable to a boom tube.
  • https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Lea_Corben_(New_Earth)

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Well in that case I remember Superman definitely not scaling to Luthor; Luthor's psyche bit him in the butt.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Well in that case I remember Superman definitely not scaling to Luthor; Luthor's psyche bit him in the butt.

Yeah I remembered something like that

How powerful is the ultramarine corps?

 

[Antvasima]

Powerful enough to defeat the Justice League, and slow down the Shaggy Man, but not more than that.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Powerful enough to defeat the Justice League, and slow down the Shaggy Man, but not more than that.

Have they ever shown any feats comparable to the upper echelon green lanterns, guardians, or the like?

 

[Firestorm808]

The Ultramarine Corps has 14 appearances, 9 of them with Lea Corben.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Wonder Woman was hit by this in JLA #25 (January 1999)

I guess we should check the other issues with the Ultamarine Corps

 

[Antvasima]

Have they ever shown any feats comparable to the upper echelon green lanterns, guardians, or the like?

I do not know. I have only read their original storyline.

 

[Aardy9000]

I have a question. Aren't most of the Solar System Level Feats pretty casual or possibly higher?

 

[Hellbeast1]

Sone of the 4-B feats are being questioned

Personally I'm fine with the 4-B feats but that's just me (reckon there could be some higher feats but I know they will never be accepted)

 

[Aardy9000]

Then again they wouldn't be a trillionth/quadrillionth of his power like the difference between 4-B and 3-A or Low 2-C.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I have a question. Aren't most of the Solar System Level Feats pretty casual or possibly higher?

Most of them are actually portrayed as being very stressful high ends for them. Only the Shazam one (which I actually am opposed to even being cankn) and Braniac's shields ones are really that casual

It's the tier 3/2 feats which are portrayed as more casual if anything

 

[Aardy9000]

I have a question. Aren't most of the Solar System Level Feats pretty casual or possibly higher?

Most of them are actually portrayed as being very stressful high ends for them. Only the Shazam one (which I actually am opposed to) and Braniac's shields ones are really that casual
It's the tier 3/2 feats which are portrayed as more casual if anything

Well for the Black Hole one, he's only stressed because of the imagery in his head, but it's still weird for him to be holding back to the point where it's a trillionth or quadrillionth of his power, so Universal seems strange when there are so many SS level feats.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I have a question. Aren't most of the Solar System Level Feats pretty casual or possibly higher?

Most of them are actually portrayed as being very stressful high ends for them. Only the Shazam one (which I actually am opposed to) and Braniac's shields ones are really that casual
It's the tier 3/2 feats which are portrayed as more casual if anything

Well for the Black Hole one, he's only stressed because of the imagery in his head, but it's still weird for him to be holding back to the point where it's a trillionth or quadrillionth of his power, so Universal seems strange when there are so many SS level feats.

No the mental imagery was after the GL was already aiding him and giving him power because the gravity was breaking him. The psychic energy stuff was afterwards

 

[Aardy9000]

I have a question. Aren't most of the Solar System Level Feats pretty casual or possibly higher?

Most of them are actually portrayed as being very stressful high ends for them. Only the Shazam one (which I actually am opposed to) and Braniac's shields ones are really that casual
It's the tier 3/2 feats which are portrayed as more casual if anything

Well for the Black Hole one, he's only stressed because of the imagery in his head, but it's still weird for him to be holding back to the point where it's a trillionth or quadrillionth of his power, so Universal seems strange when there are so many SS level feats.

No the mental imagery was after the GL was already aiding him and giving him power because the gravity was breaking him. The psychic energy stuff was afterwards

That's the power of context. Thanks for exposing that myth.

Also at least Universal Superman is better than other ridiculous things i've heard, like Outerversal Martain Manhunter or Immeasurable Speed Wolverine.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm kinda annoyed how a lot of people are misinterpretting Superman and Captain Marvel destroying missiles in a heart beat in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond.

If they read the comic, it directly says: "I invented this chrono paralyzer to freeze time here in universe designation 0. As it thaws, her heart will beat once only without your aid then stop. Fortunately, time is different beyond the walls of this world. I can ensure your return long before then."

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I'm kinda annoyed how a lot of people are misinterpretting Superman and Captain Marvel destroying missiles in a heart beat in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond.
If they read the comic, it directly says: "I invented this chrono paralyzer to freeze time here in universe designation 0. As it thaws, her heart will beat once only without your aid then stop. Fortunately, time is different beyond the walls of this world. I can ensure your return long before then."

I was just thinking of that after seeing JAR's latest Goku vs Superman video. It's so stupid.

Edit: Didn't mean the video meant the feat being took out of context.

 

[FanofRPGs]

The reality blitzing feat I assumed everyone knew was stupid and wonky and so ignored

The Captain Marvel feat comes from Shazam!: The Monster Society of Evil Vol 1 #4 (September 2007) and Death Battle did do a calc that was like 90 foe IIRC, but the pixel scaling was using different perspectives and thus wonky and overrated. I did a better calc which was High 4-C, about 10 foe. However, I think this story is noncanon because it's a weird retelling of Billy's backstory never referenced and overall ignored in favor of the original origin story. So IDK, I think the feat isn't even canon

Also I personally don't like the black hole feat. I think it meant quickly over time, and tbh I think it's just a lifting feat for Supes, but shrugs

I am also frankly against using inverse square law to lowball supernova feats for Superman/others. It is overly picky and just makes the feats less believable if they are struggling with tier 7/6 amounts of volumetric energy when the intent and progression is clearly portraying it as tier 4. So I think the Brainiac destroying the star feat is 4-C, the GL supernova tanking is high 4-C, etc.

Also, I was talking with Firestorm and the Alan Scott feat might be an outlier in that the feat is too low for him. He might have gotten weaker at the time, very likely as Firestorm told me he lost a lot of power after Zero Hour (I think?), but a lot of his showings were guardian level+ and was portrayed as wayyyy out of the GL corp's and JLA's league.

 

[Madotsuki24]

I mean, shouldn't we look at the best consistent potential for characters? Superman is definitely consistenly 3-A to Low 2-C as the owner of this thread posted. So what if other characters you don't expect defeat him in a fight? You look at what caused his defeat and if it was fair and square and not amps, you scale them to Superman unless it's an absolute outlier. You don't scale people down, you scale people up, it may not quite be the rules of VBW, because Idk what every single person who researches and comes to the conclusions of the tiers.


For example, Infinite can defeat base Sonic in a fight, Infinite scales to base Sonic.

Kamek once defeated Mario in a fight, Kamek scales to Mario.

Bakugo can defeat 5% or 8% Midoriya in a fight (I forgot what percentage he was, it was the second fight they had before the Overhaul arc), Bakugo scales to that percentage of Midoriya.


Characters who you may or may not except to get defeated, should be scaled to unless it's way beyond what the characters power is to defeat them. Superman losing to other characters should not be an excuse to put him weaker than he actually is.

 

[Firestorm808]

Consistantly 3-A from the OP? What are you talking about? We crossexamined and denied practically all of the feats and cited our sources.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I should ask for the Nebula Man feat, yes it's stated he can grow as large as the universe but the flaw is preventing him, which doesn't that logically necessitate then that he isn't universal at the time due to the flaw? Like maybe I'm conflating stuff but Earth and stars are described as being in an attoscopic scale within Nebula Man and all he did was mature into human form, isn't he the same physiologically anyways? He is a micro-universe in the most literal sense that it requires boom-tubes to scale the JLA down to the size of planets in it.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

At this point we should just turn this into a general discussion thread for talking about Superman.