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Everyone wants to upgrade this guy.

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The Void Hound isn't 4-A

Here is the scan that claims it killed 10 star systems

One could claim "blotting out the stars" 4-A but that is just legend of what it can do and there is no given time frame at all. "Killing" star system doesn't 100% equal nuking them, "kill" if anything sounds like rendering them desolate and lifeless. This interpretation is backed up by what is actually shown from the Void Hound.

Here is an actual example of it assaulting and destroying solar systems

As seen and stated, it destroys it by tearing apart the stars, it doesn't one-shot the solar system. This can also be seen by how it individually lifewipes the planets.

We are even given a catalog of its weaponry

And the most stated about its power is that is has supernova plus weaponry

This all points to the ship being High 4-C, not 4-A. 4-A is so many orders of magnitudes above supernova level, the "plus" won't help unless this "plus" means a trillion times supernova level, and burden of proof is on you for that to be true.

And again, the Void Hound was always using its point defense and specialized weaponry on JLA, not its actual starbusting "supernova plus weaponry," just the weapons they used for planetary assaults, which they did for all solar systems; they did not one shot and engulf the solar system with 4-B explosions from light years away. They actually besieged and systematically destroyed them and traveled to their next target.
 
As for the Superman clash, the multiverse was unstable and the existence of another earth will necessitate even further destabilizatio. Space and time was already shattering thanks to Alexander Luthor.

I have nothing to say about the bookstore description of Infinite Crisis, it would be more appropriate to give my opinions based on my analysis from the actual story.

Let me first note that the needed stories (Superman Vol. 2 #224, Action Comics #836, and Adventures of Superman #549) are the stories needing to be read between in Infinite Crisis 5, and in it we can see better context of what's going on in the fight, or rather what happens in the Supermens' mind, because in reality they are just having a typically intense fight and I will explain how the space-time shattering actually works and how it is much more metaphorical than literal.

Let me go to what happens in Adventures of Superman #649 now, notice how these text bubbles have two different emblems of superman and a different color gradient. Black text = Post Crisis Superman and Red text = Golden Age Superman. That is because this is not the narrator describing the events, but the two Supermen thinking the same thing.

The universe is in its death throes.. Because of Him
Post Crisis and Golden Age Superman are thinking this same speech-box. Post Crisis is seeing Golden Age Superman destabilizing the universe by bringing back Earth Two, while Golden Age Superman is seeing the universe go into constant violent crisis, always near death thanks to the likes of Imperiex and Parallax, which Superman has always failed to cleanly prevent with a 100% happy ending. In both of their eyes, the other Superman has brought the universe to its death throes due to their conflicting worldviews.

Let's entertain their punches did really break the boundaries of space and time, despite the fact that space and time was very unstable and delicate at the moment, this didn't mean on an actual destructive universal scale. This meant Kal-El and Kal-L individuallys' very essence and binding to space and time was being broken due to their conflicting world views. Notice how noone else comments on the universe shaking and shattering? Like Wonder Woman wasn't discussing it at all? Or anyone? It's because their worlds, their own subjective realities, their minds and memories were what was breaking, not the physical universe itself.

Dialogue only emphasizes that. Their own subjective memory and story of the universe were changing under their clash, most certainly due to the multiversal destabilization caused by Alexander Luthor which made such "feat," and this struggle (which is a reference as seen in-text to a struggle of ideals and identity. The themes of more cynical jaded Post Crisis vs the more idealistic naive Golden Age are struggling here) between Post Crisis Superman and Golden Age Superman couldn't be replicated under more normal circumstances because these were abnormal circumstances where a metaphysically and metatextually different Earth has spawned, destabilizing the multiverse. Noone else would feel the universe shaking because it wasn't the universe, like the physical space-time continuum, it was their universe, Kal-El and Kal-L's own spatio-temporal subjective realities and memories. They are experiencing this space-time manipulation in their minds, which can be seen how they are monologuing of these events as they fight.
 
I highly recommend looking at my feats timeline to see the consistancy and sources of Superman feats.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Superman_Feats_Timeline_Project

I don't have time to go over all of the feats, but I'll update my post as I go along with their respective sources. There are numerous errors.

  • Low 2-C | His conflict with Kal-L shatters the boundaries of local space-time. Just by the description of the feat itself, it is too vague to give a physical value. Superman of New Earth fights with the Superman of Earth-Two in the skies of Metropolis above the Daily Star on Earth-Two. With each crushing blow, each man lives the life of the other. Punch allegedly break the world. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 April 2006, Superman Vol 2 #226 April 2006, Action Comics Vol 1 #836 April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 April 2006
    • "The DCU shakes apart as Superman of Earth 2 finally confronts our Superman. Meanwhile, heroes are disappearing throughout the DC Universe, a transformed villain returns, and the mystics of every world and dimension seek help from the very Spirit that is destroying them." | DC Comics Site
    • Post-Crisis Superman only defeats Superboy after they crashed through a red sun. Superboy outright murders Kal-L.
  • Unknow | Superman tanks an energy attack from Neh-buh-loh/Nebula Man. | JLA Classified Vol 1 #3 March 2005
    • Neh-buh-loh is a living universe. | Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein Vol 1 #4 May 2006
      • Is he a mini universe? Are there any scaling or feats of Nebula Man to support a universal rating?
    • All Superman did was punch him once with no visible damage, and take a head laser. Then Nebula Man just left.
  • Should not scale | Superman has fought Brainiac 13 | Superman Y2K
  • Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol 1 #4 June 2009
  • Should not scale to Base Superma | On New Genesis, Superman and Orion exchanged punches and are described by Mr, Miracle to be evenly matched. | Death of the New Gods Vol 1 #2 December 2007
    • Characters are equalized to the size of Fourthworld when going through a Boom Tube. By sheer size, Batman becomes more than planet level.
    • Orion tanked a weapo capable of annihilating the universe, | Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 #3 May 1997 - #5
      • Darkseid has pillaged the universe, destroying whole worlds to steal the power of the gods. He amassed power beyond ability to reckon. It is only through the Astro-Force that Orion is able to contain the Oblivion Bomb. This isn't his physical power.
    • Orion has 1/5th the power of the Big Bang
      • Unknow | Doctor Fate gathers Darkseid, Orion, Highfather, and Etrigan together to form a cinque of cosmic power, pooling all of their mystic energies from their links to magic, the source, mystical forces, and a fragment of Anti-Life to hold back the relentless Entity, but even Fate knows this near-omnipotent power can't hold back Anti-Life. With no other options, Doctor Fate is forced to resort to a mystic firebreak, destroying the bridging dimension entirely, stopping the Entity's advance into their own. | Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #4 March 1989
  • Not a feat. It was a dream. | Tanked a black hole that was going to consume the universe| Superman: Where Is Thy Sting? January 2001
  • Zero Hour Vol 1 #0 September 1994
    • Supposedly, Superman contributes to 1/5 the energy of the Big Bang in Zero Hour. Superman's heat vision made up one fourth of the power to create another Universse
    • The Ray, Darkstar (Donna Troy), Captain Atom, and Kyle Rayner absorb the plasma energy universe Parallax created, absorbing most of Parallax's energy.
    • Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar, and the Ray send energy into Waverider who channels it into Damage. After, Spectre channels more energy into Damage, and a new Big Bang occurs.
    • Nothing states that Superman is contributing equally. Captain Atom and Spectre, Universal characters when not holding back, are contributing as well.
      • So yeah, it might have been The Spectre who actually created the Big Bang proper in the end, and not Superman. There's just not enough evidence that he himself contributed a whole 20% of the Big Bang's energy and not commonly stronger characters like The Spectre.
      • While they did contribute a lot of energy to starting this Big Bang, it was actually The Spectre who actually initiated the event.
  • I don't think I need to show you why Superman and Martion Man Hunter are comparable, who rocked Superboy Prime
    • Punching Superboy-Prime once with no visible damage doesn't mean they scale.
  • Superman and Wonder woman Shook the heavens
    • Shaking the heavens and the earth seems for figuratively that literally. It could simply mean that they rocked the sky and the ground. It would help to know the context of the fight.
 
FanofRPGs it killing 10 star systems happened in a single blast as it states:

"Tested once. Ten star systems died"

and the legend of it "blotting out the stars" was about it destroying Ten star systems as it was tested once then it was buried, so it could have only happened when it was tested that one time.

and in his profile it states "had previously destroyed ten star systems during a test-drive." and that he "Took attacks from the Void Hound" so if that's wrong it should be fixed.

and about the Low 2-C feat.....I'm not sure I can disprove that....so I'll wait for someone else to respond to you...
 
Firestorm808

-Is he a mini universe? Are there any scaling or feats of Nebula Man to support a universal rating?

he's as big or bigger than our universe as he states "I might have grown Huge enough to replace this entire universe, but there is a Flaw in me that keeps me small"

-All Superman did was punch him once with no visible damage, and take a head laser. Then Nebula Man just left.

don't we see him scream or something like that? and I think that's enough as now picking up someone then throwing him is a battle now Garnet vs Topas

-Not once in the entire story did Superman visibly damage Brainiac 13, but Brainiac 13 hurt Superman. Not even Superman Blue could do any damage

It's mostly a durability feat and not an AP one and Blue was punching Brainiac and keeping him off balance,and a sundiped Superman damaged Him.

-Characters are equalized to the size of Fourthworld when going through a Boom Tube. By sheer size, Batman becomes more than planet level.

both were the same size,so their smaller versions, which did the feat should scale and the Astro force is Orion's lazer things,which were equal to Superman's Heat vision.

-Punching Superboy-Prime once with no visible damage doesn't mean they scale.

Martian manhunter did damage him, if he didn't Superboy would have said something like that tickles or laugh at it, but he didn't and made that face that shows he did feel pain and then he was seriously fighting MMH, so they scale.

-Shaking the heavens and the earth seems for figuratively that literally. It could simply mean that they rocked the sky and the ground. It would help to know the context of the fight.

Ask Buttersamuri

-How is Superman universal in this context?

because of reasons.

-Has Aztek shown any feats or scaling of universal power prior?

he was shown to be Superman level, and why does that matter? His self-destruction was universal+.

-Epoch/the Lord of Time is not a 4th dimensional being. He is a time traveler who gained his chronokinesis power from the year 1 billion AD and began his career capturing criminals in a dimension similar to the Phantom Zone known as the Timepoint. He then traveled to the past and became a foe of the Justice League.

Ok..and?That doesn't prove he doesn't have 4D power or technology, I could do the same with Mephiles the dark.

-No, it clearly says that it is a cosmic radiation storm with properties of Red Kryptonite. Dr. Alchemy had nothing to do with it.

well it was going to transmute the universe, I just couldn't find the Scan in any website.

and I'm removing the 1/5th and 1/4th the power of big bang orion and superman and the tesserect swarm thing.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
FanofRPGs it killing 10 star systems happened in a single blast as it states:
"Tested once. Ten star systems died"

and the legend of it "blotting out the stars" was about it destroying Ten star systems as it was tested once then it was buried, so it could have only happened when it was tested that one time.

and in his profile it states "had previously destroyed ten star systems during a test-drive." and that he "Took attacks from the Void Hound" so if that's wrong it should be fixed.

and about the Low 2-C feat.....I'm not sure I can disprove that....so I'll wait for someone else to respond to you...
Click to expand...
Prove it meant with a single blast? That would imply we are given a known singular method it markedly uses to assume. However the Void Hound isn't a single-mechanism weapon like IDK the Death Star or Halo; it isn't a one-trick pony. We can't just assume that when the granted information shows otherwise that this inherently vague quote that it meant one-shotting an explosion which consumed multiple solar systems, especially since this was a test-run and thus probably much more tepidly, and by contrast a fully operational run was portrayed as 4-C to High 4-C.

And regardless if the Void Hound is 4-C, High 4-C, 4-B, or 4-A, they did not use this theoretical not-seen-on-panel solar system buster on the JLA. It was using the planetary-bombardment level weaponry they described on-panel its effects.
 
So I just reread This is Your Life and Infinite Crisis #5 (Like the fourth time I've done so at this point), and I found that literally it was only Kal-El and Kal-L experiencing the "spacetime shattering." Jimmy and Lois of New Earth were perfectly fine just thinking "How is Superman doing?" The visions of alternate timelines and memories and all were always given a special-border to show they are just mental projections and it is contrasted a few times with the actual fight between the Supermen which is not nearly shown to be "shaking the boundaries of space and time." And these memories/timelines, while vivid and wholly realistic for the quick flashes the Supermen experience them, are actually unreal in the first place as seen by Kal-El literally experiencing his death at the hands of the Anti-Monitor but being completely fine in reality.
 
As for the Brainiac thing, that comes from Superman: The Man of Steel #9 (March 1992). This was really early in Brainiac's run and basically all of DC was super nerfed at this time. Proof Brainiac was remotely powerful enough to be tier 2/1 at this point? Because he was just given Warworld/his own ship at this point.
 
FanofRPGs said:
As for the Brainiac thing, that comes from Superman: The Man of Steel #9 (March 1992). This was really early in Brainiac's run and basically all of DC was super nerfed at this time. Proof Brainiac was remotely powerful enough to be tier 2/1 at this point? Because he was just given Warworld/his own ship at this point.
Click to expand...
Didn't it come from Superman Vol 2 #154 March 2000?
 
I am talking about the other Brainiac feat. The artstyle and short hair are clearly from the Byrne/Early Jurgens era and I have skimmed the Man of Steel #9 issue btw, and said ship is pretty lukewarm in power. It's particle lasers are clearly not planet busters in it and Brainiac wasn't nearly as high tech yet.

Proof Brainiac ravaging timelines is with his punches and not his hax and technology?
 
@Firestorm808

What do you suggest that we should do here?
 
Antvasima said:
@Firestorm808
What do you suggest that we should do here?
Click to expand...
I think the continual research of feats and decisions of what eras go where and where feats stand within the context of the era and status quo is the best option. I agree that our current modus operandi of just ignoring feats as outliers is risky and unstable as many of the feats are faulty or debunkable with learned context.

Also, assuming a feat isn't shown to be within universal range, what tier is soley shattering the boundaries of space and time, as in the boundaries, not the continuum itself?
 
There's eleven or so Universal+ feats, so I think it's pretty consistent, as there's only 14 Solar System level feats.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
There's eleven or so Universal+ feats, so I think it's pretty consistent, as there's only 14 Solar System level feats.
Click to expand...
What are the 11 left..
 
Vs Brainiac 13,Aztek's self-destruction,Vs Lord of Time,MMH damaging Superboy prime, Superman surviving a superboy prime time Trapper blast,Vs Red King.... And there's some 3-A feats like Vs Ne-bu-La, Vs 30th century Superman,Vs Starman....
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Vs Brainiac 13,Aztek's self-destruction,Vs Lord of Time,MMH damaging Superboy prime, Superman surviving a superboy prime time Trapper blast,Vs Red King.... And there's some 3-A feats like Vs Ne-bu-La, Vs 30th century Superman,Vs Starman....
Click to expand...
Again, proof Braniac 13's physical strength = his hax and temporal abilities? Brainiac is a hax type usually, not a physical bruiser.

Superboy Prime was jobbing and not even fully in control of his powers yet. In fact in general he was very inconsistent in it. He also struggled with Kon-El, but in the same storyline he later he slaughtered several dozens of Green Lanterns at once and was overpowering a tag-team of two Supermen even when caught off guard. Does MMH now > dozens of Green Lanterns?

I just discussed the Starman one, it is automatically useless due to being in the Pre-Revival Era which shows time after time again and goes out of its way to show Superman isn't even past tier 5, with the only exceptions being either obvious hyperbole, dubiously canon, or done by a certain writer who is infamous for not caring about consistency of the status quo.
 
Also, just a little something to think about

Almost every single time a tier 2 villain had appeared for one story in a Superman comic, there has been a context or bit of information proving the villain was either not going all out, or Superman was amped, or whatever. Point is, most of the time Superman got stomped, stressed he couldn't do absolutely anything no matter what he did when it came to his physicality, and had to end up outsmart the villain to stand a chance or win.

However when long running villains such as Mordru, Time Trapper, Nebuloh, etc appear in a Superman story, they are the one who end up fighting characters way below their weight class, fights tend to be quick, tepid, and ambiguous, and the character in question tends to not show his full cosmic powers. So is it not possible that instead of it being a high showing for Superman, it's a low showing for the opponents perhaps?
 
Brainiac 13 Isn't the type of Brainiac That uses Hax, most of the time he fights with his brute Force or sometimes turns his ennemy digital then beat him up, so he probably used brute strength.

That was his first fight in post crisis and he wasn't trying to kill Kon-El, he was just beating him up, and he was stomping him so much that Kon-El called for 50 or so people to help him, after that fight he wasn't messing around, and yes, MHH Is stronger than dozens of Green lanterns, the guy has one shotted a Team buster, manhandled the league multiple times,.....

Did they get a massive amp or something?
 
Superman,MMH,Aquaman,Orion... Have all fought and keept up with or even beat some Universal or higher villains and did some Universal feat, and it's consitent enough for it to not to be considered an outliar,so is a probably/possibly Low 2-C good???
 
Show me Aquaman's feat? Is it Swamp Thing? Because if it is that is ridiculous and you know it. That comes from Aquaman Vol. 5 #32, which was 3 years before Our Worlds at War, IIRC even before the first real tier 4 feats and I don't think there was even any remotely arguable tier 2 stuff yet for a while. Swamp Thing's mind, if he even had one which he doesn't, resides in a higher dimension and Aquaman when looking across his entire history has never shown a comparable feat aside through long winded scaling chains. That feat is also way above 3-A/Low 2-C at face value so it proves nothing.

And still not necessarily, because the fact is there is a huge void between their 4-B/4-A feats and their 3-A feats and these 3-A feats are usually done with such a low degree of effort that makes them dubious. Almost all the tier 4 feats are consistently shown to be a limit, and there is a larger number of them. Also the disparity between each individual feat is much lower than the disparity between all the assorted tier 3-A, Low 2-C, etc feats. Almost all the tier 4 feats are clustered in around the foe level, while the 3-A+ feats are all scattered in powerlevel.

And plus are you taking into account the actual eras these appear in?
 
I was talking about This

Also I realized something terrible, those Solar System level feats, are less than the Universal+ and Universal feats! As 5 or so of these 14 Solar System feats are Scaling to characters that are Solar System level because they scale to Superman,a.k.a there's actually only 7 or so Solar System level feats, and those feats are mostly Supermam escaping some black hole,but black holes don't just need power to escape from, because of their side effects, that only leaves us with 4 Solar System feats, which are Superman throwing a compressed Solar System, which he did super casually, him tanking the Void hound which you debunked yourself, him tanking 50 Supernovas while massively Weakened, and a feat from the Pre-revival Era.

I also found a Universal+ WW feat.
 
  • Unknow | Someone says "Your universe collapsing" under unknown context. | JLA Vol 1 #75 January 2003
    • Two teams of JLAers find themselves face to face with the monster that has stolen Atlantis and holds their fate... as well as the fate of the time-tossed King of the Seven Seas. The heroes of the JLA and its star-studded replacements duke it out with the Ancients in a no-holds-barred free-for-all, as they try to find their teammate Aquaman and discover the secrets that will save his Atlantean society...or erase it from Earth forever. The Conclusion to The Obsidian Age: The Hunt For Aquaman. Gamemnae's origin is explained and she is taken down by the classic and current roster of the Justice League of America.
    • Synopsis: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_75
 
I think that Firestorm808 and FanofRPGs make sense.
 
Firestorm808 said:
50 Supernova's isn't Multi-Solar System level. The gap is ~881.86 billion x baseline 4-B.
Click to expand...
I was arguing that the Void hound was 4-A, not the 50 Supernovas, but It was debunked by Fanof, but either way, the void Hound is either 4-A or High 4-C, it's definitely not 4-B.
 
This makes sense to me.

Also, assuming a feat isn't shown to be within universal range, what tier is soley shattering the boundaries of space and time, as in the boundaries, not the continuum itself?

Most likely unquantifiable minor space-time manipulation hax.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Firestorm808 and FanofRPGs make sense.
Click to expand...
But there are more Universal and Universal+ feats then Solar System feats, wouldn't that make Superman and the others 3-A or Low 2-C? And the Solar System feats are super casual, massively Weakened, and the Void hound feat was debunked.
 
We're still in the process of cataloging and reviewing the scans before any real decision is made.
 
Well, Firestorm and FanofRPGs are still evaluating and indexing the feats, as they mentioned earlier.
 
Here's my 2 cents:

  • Nebula Man/Neh-Buh-Loh is not the greatest to use for scaling. When he appeared back in the Bronze Age he was compared to (iirc) atomic bombs power-wise, and he's never demonstrated anything remotely approaching universal power. Sure he's a sentient universe, but he's also a human-sized, fairly weak one.
  • Supes fought Brainiac 13 in the present, and wasn't he only universal in the future era? Unless I'm misremembering what I believe was a Young Justice comic during OWAW. Who knows what upgrades he could've gotten in between. Plus his timeline ravaging was definitely not any sort of physical ability (although you could kind of make the same argument for Infinite Zamasu granting DB Low 2-C physical power so...eh)
  • I never got around to fixing Orion's profile but the short story is, he is almost never operating at full power and Superman in no way scales to his Astro Force's full potential.
  • Universal black hole was a dream/illusion. The closest you could get to this would be one of the creators stating on twitter that it was an "illusion" like in Hindu mysticism and use some very generous logic to make it a true alternate reality. For obvious reasons, that wouldn't fly here, and nor should it.
  • People knock back and draw a small amount of blood from characters they don't scale to all the time. Prime is way beyond MMH in power.
  • Shaking the heavens isn't universal and those were alternate timeline versions from when the world was remade in Trinity by Kurt Busiek.
  • That was the other Monarch, who should definitely not scale to universal.
  • Captain Atom is most likely talking about his "normal" state, not his full power.
  • The tesseract swarm is cool, but has nothing to do with universal power.
  • Dominus is a scrub and the way his powers work means it's not really feasible to use him to upgrade Superman.
  • Superman was having a hard time just dealing with the Queen's fictional creations, plus she's a reality warper.
  • Calling energy 4D is pretty weak evidence for universal power imo, although Ultima would be better suited to evaluate that.
  • That's not Brainiac 13.
  • For Aztek, see my point above. Again, Ultima would be good to get in here though.
  • Lord of Time is called 4D because he's a time traveler/abuser, kind of like Kang. He's not universal in power.
  • Why is Alchemy's storm universal? Just being called cosmic isn't enough.
I think, with respect, that most of these are bunk for universal scaling and the few remaining would need a lot more support (as in, undisputed universal feats from other 4B characters that Supes scales to) in order to overturn the commonly accepted scaling.
 
What about the Pushing the planet called "Warworld", which is as big as Pluto, and is powered by Imperiex, who was being powered by the Big Bang, and then the universal self destruct power he survived
 
@Buttersamuri

Also, you would have to prove that Warworld's thrusters are Universal. Imperiex is just the battery. Imperiex is only Universal AP with self-destruct.
 
@PrinceOfTheMorning

Thank you for helping out. We probably need to link to some sort of universe level debunking blog in the Superman (Post-Crisis) page, to avoid these arguments constantly popping up.
 
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