Everyone wants to upgrade this guy.

[Firestorm808]

Sure. We can get started on that once we finish documenting the scans here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

-Nebula man stated he has become big enough to Cover the Universe in just 3 billion years, so that atomic bomb statement could be like the "his skin is harder than steel" statement from T.O.P DBS

-the Brainiac 13 he fought was the same Brainiac, as the one he fought was Brainiac 2,5 Who had a virus That upgraded him to his Brainiac 13 state, and Brainiac 13 Can't get stronger than this state without going further.

-It still should be added to Orion's page.

-MMH was able to Damage and keep up with Superboy prime in the fight, so they should likely scale.

- I think 4-D should be automatically Universal+ as we already know that Higher Dimensions are higher mathematical infinities in DC, and the rest of the description explains why Lord of time is 4-D.

-the storm was going to transmute the universe

 

[FanofRPGs]

-Nebula man stated he has become big enough to Cover the Universe in just 3 billion years, so that atomic bomb statement could be like the "his skin is harder than steel" statement from T.O.P DBS
-the Brainiac 13 he fought was the same Brainiac, as the one he fought was Brainiac 2,5 Who had a virus That upgraded him to his Brainiac 13 state, and Brainiac 13 Can't get stronger than this state without going further.

-It still should be added to Orion's page.

-MMH was able to Damage and keep up with Superboy prime in the fight, so they should likely scale.

- I think 4-D should be automatically Universal+ as we already know that Higher Dimensions are higher mathematical infinities in DC, and the rest of the description explains why Lord of time is 4-D.

-the storm was going to transmute the universe

Higher dimension in DC are governing layers. The way we treat them is completely different from how we treat dimensions for other stuff.

4-D is just time in DC Comics. That is just a chronokinetic attack which isn't inherently tier 2. That or it is the 4-D Branespace seen in Superman: Beyond, which IDK how that works @Prince of the Morningstar how does it work?

Also I read through Superman Y2K, Superman Vol. 2 #154, and Young Justice OWaW, and how Brainiac works makes it so Superman cannot scale to Brainiac's universal feat. Brainiac is like a virus who spreads across space converting matter over time, at the time he fought Superman he seems to only be city-scoped, and him spanning the universe was in the deeeeep future, and it's still stated he is vulnerable to being attacked having done so. Superman was dealing with the physical body of Brainiac 13 which doesn't scale to the viral aspect.

 

[FanofRPGs]

@PrinceOfTheMorning
Thank you for helping out. We probably need to link to some sort of universe level debunking blog in the Superman (Post-Crisis) page, to avoid these arguments constantly popping up.

I am writing it across multiple blogs.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Pre-Zero_Hour_Superman_and_DC_Feats_Analyzed

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...nfinite_Crisis_Superman_and_DC_Feats_Analyzed

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Pre-Flashpoint_Superman_and_DC_Feats_Analyzed

What I suggest is once I wrote them, they are added to Firestorm's blog as resources for debunking. Then a "best hits" blog is made soley based on any 3-A and above feat.

I have already debunked Dominus, Emperor Joker, Soulfire Darkseid, Cythonnia, and several others. I just need to actually put it in my blogs.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

FanofRPGs you should add the High end feat a.k.a overpowering Starman and say it's an outliar as There are no feats like it in that Era? And wouldn't 4-D not being Mathematically superior infinity downgrade Mxy to 2-A? As to be Low 1-C you would need to have two mathematical infinities on top of the 3rd dimension or something like that, and if 4-D isn't mathematically superior to 3-D, then Mxy can't be Low 1-C, but Captain Adam says otherwise, he says that 4-D beings see 3-D beings flat and it wouldn't make sense if the 5th dimension is a mathematical superior infinity to the 4th dimension but the 4th isn't like that.

And Orion still needs an upgrade for his feat.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Again, dimensions in DC work different. It's none of this R mathematical infinities stuff. It's all random and inconsistent. 5-D Ôëá literally 5-D. It equals imagination, the lifeblood of creation. 4-D is time almost all times, aside for Morrison using it as a branespace. And a person shouldn't automatically be tier 2 for manipulating time or using chronal energy.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Fan, that's only in Snyder's cosmology, not across all eras.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Again, dimensions in DC work different. It's none of this R mathematical infinities stuff. It's all random and inconsistent. 5-D Ôëá literally 5-D. It equals imagination, the lifeblood of creation. 4-D is time almost all times, aside for Morrison using it as a branespace. And a person shouldn't automatically be tier 2 for manipulating time or using chronal energy.

If that's the case, Darkseid and all the God heads should be downgraded, because if 5-D in DC is only one mathematical infinity above 3-D, it isn't Low 1-C, because to be Low 1-C you would need two mathematical infinities on top of the 3rd dimension or something like that, and because the 4th Dimension in DC lacks that mathematical infinity, 5-D in DC can't be Low 1-C, and probably Mr Mxy but you can make the argument of him being beyond time and Space in an infinite Multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

It is one mathematical infinity above universal space-time, if I have understood correctly.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It is one mathematical infinity above universal space-time, if I have understood correctly.

So it isn't Low 1-C, as it would take 2 mathematical infinities above a universal structure, so The Godheads will be downgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

No. See here: Tiering System

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wait, when did a 5-D imp ever see a 4-D being or the Universal space-time as flat? I know they have called Superman flat, but he's 3-D, not 4-D.

 

[Antvasima]

It was a simplification used in the "Crisis Times 5" JLA story.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Fan, that's only in Snyder's cosmology, not across all eras.

Time still predominantly means 4-D in most stuff in DC aside for Morrison's cosmology. Temporal energy isn't gonna be tier 2.

 

[Ogbunabali]

That's probably true, but I was referring to the general comment.

 

[FanofRPGs]

So I read the cosmic storm thingy (The Brave and the Bold #7, #11-12) and it works by moving around and warping and manipulating matter on an atomic scale at a planetary scope. Megistus used several relics so somehow it can travel/interact with booth the anti-matter universe and new earth and cause its transumative havoc there. It isn't universal by attack potency or all at once. It seems that it's an overtime cosmic thing and Superman would just get good transumation resistance for being within it.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I can see your point with Lord of time but Aztek's explosion had nothing temporal about it and the 4th dimension not being Mathematically superior infinity to the 3rd dimension wouldn't make sense, because the 5th Dimension is a superior infinity and the 4th dimension not being like that wouldn't make sense, and Captain Adam, who's 8 dimensional, stated that the 4th dimension sees the 3rd flat.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Why does your Aztek thing randomly show JLA #77?

 

[FanofRPGs]

So I looked at the self destruction of Aztek and it only destroyed a city block and Superman was at the very edge of the blast

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So I looked at the self destruction of Aztek and it only destroyed a city block and Superman was at the very edge of the blast

But it's 4-D, who cares how big it's AoE is, it's like Goku's Kamehameha, it has Universal AP but not even city block AoE.

 

[FanofRPGs]

So I looked at the self destruction of Aztek and it only destroyed a city block and Superman was at the very edge of the blast

But it's 4-D, who cares how big it's AoE is, it's like Goku's Kamehameha, it has Universal AP but not even city block AoE.

Except aside for all the hype and statements for Aztek, he has shown nothing to be comparable to more traditional higher dimensional entities in DC. Read his respect thread; his best on-screen feat is 6-A and his best scaling feat is fighting Amazo and Green Lantern, which doesn't necessitate tier 2. Actual feats and showings are more important than just "lol 4-D," especially since we don't know what 4-D means because there is like 3 different interpretations of it in DC. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and all evidence shows nothing comparable to other proclaimed higher dimensional beings.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

He did a Universal+ feat before, The parasite one, Parasite is able to absorb Kismet's and Starman's energy with no problem, and the Amazo and Green lantern Scaling would became Universal+ if they get upgraded.

And 4-D here is talking about Power, so it's likely the mathematically superior infinity and not the temporal one, which wouldn't be powerful in any way.

 

[FanofRPGs]

He did a Universal+ feat before, The parasite one, Parasite is able to absorb Kismet's energy with no problem, and the Amazo and Green lantern Scaling would became Universal+ if they get upgraded.
And 4-D here is talking about Power, so it's likely the mathematically superior infinity and not the temporal one, which wouldn't be powerful in any way.

The Parasite thing would be inconsistent then. Kismet is comparable to the Lords of Chaos and Order who are higher dimensional/exist beyond space-time, yet he couldn't absorb basic 4-D enegry? That doesn't add up.

Plus I read the story where it happens. It was Strange Visitor, who was housing Kismet, but she was very green in this body and had little awareness or control over any power on Kismet's level

Also Parasite notes when he absorbs Strange Visitor's he's never experienced such a degree of power. And this happens 2 years after his fight with Aztek, so it just doesn't add up.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Ok, but Aztek still has no Temporal powers, so he's 4-D is likely Mathematical.

 

[Antvasima]

FanofRPGs makes sense to me.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Anyway, 4-B isn't consistent, it's only 2 feats, we have more High 4-C,3-A and Low 2-C feats, so that should be changed.

Orion and Firestorm should get a tier like Captain Atom, where they have Low 2-C keys.

MMH should have High Regen.

 

[Antvasima]

The higher feats have been debunked as far as I am aware, so it would be High 4-C or 4-B in that case.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well there's still the Starman,Red King feats, MMH keeping up with Superboy Prime,Superman surviving Time Trapper Superboy, Nebula man,WW tanking mathematical 4-D power and I still think Aztek is mathematical 4-D as he has never showed any Temporal powers in all of his Runs and His 4th dimensional power is seen as powerful because it is 4 dimensional, which wouldn't make sense if it was Temporal.

But if we can only choose between High 4-C and 4-B, High 4-C is more consistent.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Adem

I have an Orion profile ready to go in my sandbox to bring his profile more up to date.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

@Adem
I have an Orion profile ready to go in my sandbox to bring his profile more up to date.

That's good.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Tier 4 isn't so inconsistent

• We have Captain Marvel tearing ~18 meter hole in space and time

• Superman could smash through Brainiac's ships shields which can survive the force of a neutron star

• Superman could take the electromagnetic enegry of a 50x supernova, or about 0.50 foe

• While he fails, Green Lantern came moderately close to replicating the Xanshi Solar System with the limits of his power ring

• Alan Scott can destroy the solar system by going meltdown

• Kol and Isamot survive a supernova

• Flash's IMP hits like a white dwarf star

• Kyle Reyner initiates and holds back a supernova, albeit under so much stress he was hemorrhaging and ended up needing help

And keep in mind, from an era to era basis, the tier 2/3 feats are inconsistent in the context of what was around then.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Well there's still the Starman,Red King feats, MMH keeping up with Superboy Prime,Superman surviving Time Trapper Superboy, Nebula man,WW tanking mathematical 4-D power and I still think Aztek is mathematical 4-D as he has never showed any Temporal powers in all of his Runs and His 4th dimensional power is seen as powerful because it is 4 dimensional, which wouldn't make sense if it was Temporal.
But if we can only choose between High 4-C and 4-B, High 4-C is more consistent.

The Starman feat I am not sure because I haven't read it all but it is an outlier within the era and so automatically should be discredited for any later eras. DC was consistently between 6-C and High 6-A at the time. It shouldn't be included in the analysis because unlike later eras where Superman's status quo powerlevel is more ambiguous and stated by WoG, it's stated by WoG and shown in literally almost every issue that Superman isn't past planet level without some help.

Aztek, again, has never proven to live up to hype of 4-D energy. Yeah, I concede it might mean 4-D power, but we have never been shown it actually comparing to the likes of cosmic characters and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If he actually fought Kismet, and not using a dubious scaling chain to scale to a amnesiac holding her essence, that would be one thing. Or if he actually was shown to >>>>>>> the JLA in absolutely all aspects. But he hasn't. His best direct feat is 6-A, his best scaling feat is to Amazo and GL only. And his best statement is just generic "limitless" hype because he was the star of the issue.

 

[Antvasima]

@FanofRPGs

In a recent Grant Morrison Green Lantern issue, Hal Jordan also performed an energy output comparable with a supernova.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

-Isn't that unquantifiable?

-That should be good evidence for 4-B, but he did it casually so we don't know if it's his limit.

-He was weakened when he was hit by that electromagnetic energy,he was hit by lots and lots of Red Sun Radiation.

-So baseline 4-B or a little bit weaker? It's probably a High end High 4-C feat.

-that seems super casual.

-were they damaged? And it's likely a High 4-C feat, which is also consistent.

-well there are more statements saying it has infinite mass,and I remember it almost destroyed the Universe one time, and how does Superman scale? Doesn't he only scale with the IMP? So it wouldn't be equal to Base.

-That's a good High 4-C feat.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

@FanofRPGs
In a recent Grant Morrison Green Lantern issue, Hal Jordan also performed an energy output comparable with a supernova.

There's also Superman stating he's capable of destroying the phantom Zone, is that low 2-C? Or is that 2-A?

 

[Antvasima]

It is too unproven and unspecified to be quantifiable. Sorry.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I guess Starman is an outliar, but shouldn't we have different keys for every Superman Era? As the're way different in power, The Byrne Era being in Tier 7-5 or something like that,it seems better if we Seperate him into his different Eras.

Well it's a self-destruction, so it could be like Imperiex prime, his self-destruction being above his normal power output.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Goddamnit it ate my post so not gonna elaborate

The Lord of Time was not using 4-D energy on Superman. He is 4-D as in time travel and he took energy from the Sun in the future when it is red and fired that radiation on Superman, who was his blue energy form and could absorb all types of energy. That's why Supes even says "That may have worked in the past, but those conditions no longer apply"

As for the Red King, I will read it myself but someone I have talked to knowledgable on DC has stated:

"It's a long story but he is basically a human who was enhanced by experiments and technology from DC Earth's top minds. The full scope of his powers was unknown but scientists said he had at least 63 metahuman abilities, plus his armor and technology.

It's almost worthless to try to scale his powers because the story never really explored them beyond "he could kick the Justice League's ass".

Superman doesn't really scale to him in any significant way. The Red King beat Clark alongside the entire JLA in two different timelines (it's a complicated arc) and one of those times he straight up killed them all.

The best thing Clark did against him was knock him back with a punch, which was instrumental to the Red King's defeat but didn't actually cause him any harm. And the Red King was distracted when that happened."