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Everyone wants to upgrade this guy.

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I agree with your Lord of time point

Well the Red King has some feats,like him destroying Possibilities containing a Universe one by one with his Energy blasts,is capable of creating and reshaping the Universe.

And Superman was able to damage him 4 times in the Scans I showed, and he took his Full power Blast and said it "Hurt, but didn't kill", and John survived it too with his will power, but WW and Flash didn't, as he attacked a illusion made by J'onn and Flash regenerated.
 
@FanofRPGs

The forum times out after 20 minutes, and is glitchy as well, so always copy/save the text of long posts before posting.
 
So I read Fourth Parallel (JLA Classified #32-36) where the Red King appears. So this is my analysis.

"Well the Red King has some feats,like him destroying Possibilities containing a Universe one by one with his Energy blasts,is capable of creating and reshaping the Universe."

That was Doctor Destiny using a Relic gem in the Materioptikon(?) to destroy possibilities, not the Red King through physical abilities. This same relic/setup allowed Darin Proffit to exploit the defects of it to go across billions of different realities and have different lives, weeding it down to three left where three Profitts, now known as the Red King, was vested armor that wasn't based on the gem, but basically the best technology feasibly created by thousands of worlds and millions of lifetimes worth of research to counter the JLA. So it had some limited dimensional manipulation but its full extent is unknown. Point is he doesn't scale to breaking probabilities because that is in a context not seen at the moment. That is only when he is in the Materioptikon and using that stone again, not his own power, to destroy obsolete possibilities and using the realm within it as Batman describes in #36 as a "hub world."

Darin fought that Bizarro Superman in #35, that first blast wasn't a full powered one, it was just one to throw down Supes and potentially kill him. His actual full powered attack killed Superman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman. He also one-shotted MMH after MMH kept spamming illusions. Point is, he outright stomped the league when it came to head-on strength and there was nothing that the JLA could do when it came to brute strength to do anything, and again the reality shattering is through a means he doesn't enjoy whenever he is fighting the JLA.

In #36, Flash states Superman wouldn't be able to keep up with Red King, and Red King hadn't even used his full power yet. When he actually starts fighting, he easily defeats GL and MMH and his largest fuckup was absorbing one of the alternate Red Kings who had became a good guy which corrupted his mind and let him fall into the JLA's trap and lose. And yes, Superman only managed to punch him off guard to BFR him.

The only possible scalable feat here is that Wonder Woman destroyed this Gem, but we don't know if it's durability scales to its power potential, especially since it's stated to be useless outside its hub world.

So basically all the reality destruction is based on a gem relic that only works and is really useful in its hubworld and Red King's actual powers are all earth-based with some hax limitedly shown like dimensional manipulation. He still absolutely stomped the JLA and is far above them. Superman shouldn't at all scale to any probability destruction unless you argue WW destroying the gem could scale but I don't think there is any proof its actual durability scales.
 
Okay, I haven't read Sinestro Corps Wars but I read its summary and how was MMH vs Superboy Prime not an inconsistent jobbing outlier for Superboy Prime? Considering how badly he stomped Superman when it comes to brute strength, how he takes on Guardians, the strongest Green Lanterns, and more, and I don't even think he has his Antimonitor Armor there IDK, the fact stands that Superboy Prime is portrayed >>>> Superman and the Martian Manhunter is an outlier, plain and simple.
 
I think that FanofRPGs makes sense.
 
Well, you can find it at ***************.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, you can find it at ***************.
Click to expand...
Yeah it's just a longer storyline and I'm going to work tonight and have college soon so Tuesday would have to be the next free day, maybe friday
 
Okay. No problem. You can probably find a chronological index of the issues involved in the crossover somewhere.
 
Welp, Great job, you debunked the Red king scaling.

but MMH keeping up with Superboy Prime (with Solar suit) isn't that inconsistent, MMH has been portrayed to be above or comparable to characters that could solo the JLA (except Himself) like that time he was hit by the entire JLA and he wasn't even a bit bothered, or when he fought most of the JLA at once,tackled Amazo when he had the JLA's power, One shot Furnes who has stomped the JLA,one shot Cheeta (who just beat Superman),Stomped Triumph.....

so him keeping up with Superboy prime isn't that far fetched, as most of the times, the only way he loses is if he gets hit with a heat vision or anything that has something to do with Fire,that's how he lost to Superboy the first time and Doomsday.

and how strong are Guardians anyway? I know they have stomped Kyle and some other Lanterns, but how much stronger is unknown, even Doomsday has killed armies of Green laneterns pretty casually.
 
Guardians are basically the leaders of the lanterns

And even the strongest Green Lanterns, who would >>> MMH AND Superman, lost to Prime
 
I think that he should have a possibly 3-A/Low 2-C, or at least say in the notes section he has has a quite a few outliers making him 3-A/Low 2-C, like on the Hulk (Marvel Comics) page.
 
You're talking about Ion (Sodam Yat) right? Well he was able to go Toe to Toe with Superboy Prime, where the Quardians weren't hurting him as much, and were getting stomped by the Anti-monitor, that Superboy Prime killed alone, so The Guardians probably don't scale to him.

I found another WW feat, it's This Where she Breaks Chronus' Scepter(which was powerful enough to hold the Godwave, , the energy wave which would destroy the universe. Good thing they were in Heaven at this )
 
Who thinks Supes should at least have a sentence in his notes that says he could be 3-A/Low 2-C with outliers, like on Hulk (Marvel Comics)'s page?
 
Songokugokuhgokuusan said:
Who thinks Supes should at least have a sentence in his notes that says he could be 3-A/Low 2-C with outliers, like on Hulk (Marvel Comics)'s page?
Click to expand...
I suggest actually analyzing every feat before doing so, 2886 appearances or not
 
Most of the Universal feats he stated in that video were debunked, it would have been ideal if he gave a link to these 66 Universal feats, but he didn't.

But there are several Immeasurable speed feats we can use.
 
He has a Twitter and a discord, you could probably ask him on either of does for the other universal scans. He is also willing to argue about them, if you would like to do that.
 
FanofRPGs said:
Songokugokuhgokuusan said:
Who thinks Supes should at least have a sentence in his notes that says he could be 3-A/Low 2-C with outliers, like on Hulk (Marvel Comics)'s page?
Click to expand...
I suggest actually analyzing every feat before doing so, 2886 appearances or not
Click to expand...
But I think less people would make these threads time after time claiming we don't acknowledge these feats. Or maybe someone could write a blog on why Superman isn't 3-A/Low 2-C or isn't as fast as some say, and maybe add that to the to page in notes or whatever.

Before someone tells me I should do it if i'm the one suggesting it, I don't know enough about Superman and was convinced he was Universal before these debunks.
 
I think that we should link to a debunk blog instead, and that the blog should mention the few non-debunked feats as outliers.
 
Wait are there good debunk blogs in the first place? If so (as you would already know if you read my other posts) I think we should put em on the notes section of Superman's page.
 
Songokugokuhgokuusan said:
Wait are there good debunk blogs in the first place? If so I think we should put em on the notes section of Superman's page.
Click to expand...
One important debunk would be "The Great Superman Debate" on Naruto Forums where a lot were debunked in the first place
 
FanofRPGs said:
Songokugokuhgokuusan said:
Wait are there good debunk blogs in the first place? If so I think we should put em on the notes section of Superman's page.
Click to expand...
One important debunk would be "The Great Superman Debate" on Naruto Forums where a lot were debunked in the first place
Click to expand...
Thanks, I looked at it. But, it is more of a debate/thread, but's good for starters. Maybe someone could compile the debunks into a more comprehensive (I think I may of spelled that wrong) thread?
 
I think that FanofRPGs is working on a debunk blog.
 
@Ehnkr2beboh FanofRPGs and I are collaborating on the documentation.

@Adem Warlock69

"Chronus' Scepter was powerful enough to hold the Godwave."

Do you have the scan for this?

Tho It lacks some Universal feats and some debunks of those Universal feats, and There are some random 4-Bs for feats that shouldn't be 4-B, but those can be fixed.

Which ones are you referring to?
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Ehnkr2bebohFanofRPGs and I are collaborating on the documentation.
@Adem Warlock69

"Breaks Chronus' Scepter was powerful enough to hold the Godwave."

Do you have the scan for this?

Tho It lacks some Universal feats and some debunks of those Universal feats, and There are some random 4-Bs for feats that shouldn't be 4-B, but those can be fixed.

Which ones are you referring to?
Click to expand...
Seems to happen in the Genesis Storyline from 1997, I can't read it till Tuesday cuz at work and school tomorrow
 
Thanks to both of you for helping out.
 
Can we look over the number of planetary feats at the time? Specifically for Pre-Infinitw Crisis/Pre-Mongul Training?
 
That seems fine to me.
 
******* post eating I want to kill this wiki ffs

Not gonna write the whole thing again, but I counted and there's more tier 5/4 feats in the Pre-Infinite Crisis/Post-Zero Hour era than tier 2/1 feats, and they are also much closer together in tier while the tier 2/1 feats jump from Low 2-C as a high end interpretation (Aztek, I still dispute this), 2-C (Superboy Prime, gonna read Sinestro Corp Wars and Legion of Three Worlds again and reiterate why I disagree with MMH Scaling), 2-A++ (The Godwave created the speedforce and has done fourth world shenanigans), and Low 1-C (Billy Batson tanks a 5-D firestorm, I have no context or scan). There is also 3 sourcewall feats from Superman/Batman but IDK if that's pre or post Infinite Crisis and I don't get why they're so impressive. These are the only 4 feats I can recall. There were like 7-8 stellar and planetary feats but goddangit I am not rewriting them, I hate post eating.
 
Well most of the Tier 5/4 feats seem to be causal,but There's also a feat about some krytonian God who beat someone capable of creating the Universe or something like that.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Well most of the Tier 5/4 feats seem to be causal,but There's also a feat about some krytonian God who beat someone capable of creating the Universe or something like that.
Click to expand...
The scaling in The Last God of Krypton is weak, and Superman only had a standing chance when he as in the Sun which he grew power from and she was weakened by. Her true form still stomped him even when weakened in the Sun and he was in the Sun.

And most of the tier 4 feats aren't casual, especially all the Pre-Infinite Crisis ones. I would call Alan Scott going unstable with his power and melting down not causal. I would call Green Lantern hemorrhaging from the amount of power he is using not casual. Nor is the Flash using a specialized attack he otherwise can't do unless it's those conditions. The planetary feats are more casual however.

The problem is that average amounts of effort, maybe some strain, are given to these tier 2/3 feats while the tier 4 ones are immensely under stress. And again, they very are are distributed further apart from eachother, with one being Low 1-C, another being 2-A++, another 2-C, etc.
 
This is the context for the firestorm thing, which I found to come from JSA #36 (July 2002):


Rick Tyler initiates his plan B. He teleports himself and Sand to an old lab of his father's, Rex Tyler. Rex explains they are in a chronal stasis field. However, they are only granted one hour together in total for the rest of their lives. It was given as a final gift from Matt Tyler before he passed on. They ask Rex for advice on how to defeat Ultra-Humanite. He recommends they attempt a two-pronged attack. First attack him mentally, since he's jumped bodies so many times he has an identity crisis. Then they must electrically overload Yz the Thunderbolt with an electric attack. They part ways after having spent two and a half minutes talking.

Rick and Sand teleport back into the action. Hourman barks orders to the JSA members to hold back the Gorillas while they organize their offensive move. Captain Marvel runs to Black Adam to jump start his powers.

Meanwhile, Mister Terrific uses his T-Spheres to interfere with Ultra-Humanite's mind. Ultra-Humanite is forced to have visions of his past lives and is haunted as to what his true identity may be.

Hourman grabs the metal harness from Mammoth to wrap around and create a lightning rod.

Meanwhile, Wildcat and Doctor Fate battle Hawkgirl and Hawkma. Ted forces Hawkman to crash through the prison holding Alan Scott. Alan turns his green flame on his captors.

Jakeem Williams receives a psychic link with Thunderbolt. He's told to complete the action of killing Johnny Thunders in order to stop Ultra-Humanite. Captain Marvel proceeds to stab Johnny Thunders body and releasing the Ultra-Humanite from control of his body.''
And looking at the scan, IDK, I don't think Billy scales Yz in any meaningful way here and this is an overextrapolation.
 
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