- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #81
The City is accepted as Low 1-C. It's never specified which dimensionality. Here I am trying to clarify which makes more sense given the context and setting of the story.The city is accepted as Low 1-C (5D)
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Elaine, Michael, Lucifer, and the Presence Possible 1-C upgrade.
- Thread starter VeryGoofyToddler2
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I don’t recall multiple threads of people agreeing to such a thing. Matter of fact, the last time this got brought up, it was me and some other people arguing against two users trying to lie about what’s being said in the same scan you posted.
How does the universe glistening and glittering like a toy, make the Silver City qualitatively superior to the universe?
- 11,987
- 5,410
Xear stop arguing about something thats already been accepted
- 11,987
- 5,410
Baseline Low 1-C is 5D. It's always been that way. Saying something is baseline Low 1-C is the same as saying something is 5D. The reason why heaven is 5D is because is transcends a 2-A structure, making it baseline Low 1-C (5D)
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- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #86
It transcends Creation, yes but it never specified on how many levels. Assuming the City is baseline when there is no concrete evidence for it. The Endless seems more baseline Low 1-C because they embody aspects of Creation. The City exists above their realms which are also considered Low 1-C.
- 11,987
- 5,410
We assume this by default unless stated otherwise.
is there any proof of the city being qualitatively superior to the endless's realms? if that's the case, then the silver city would have been 6D.
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #88
We should only if there's no context to support any other idea. There is context, so we cannot assume based on it being Low 1-C.
There both Low 1-C. There isn't a need for qualitative superiority because it can either be a 5-D or 6-D space within that tier. It is above the realms so it should be a higher D in that same tier. It's not until you get to the next tier that you need a scale that shows qualitative transcendence that the City is much greater than the realms of the Endless.
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- 11,987
- 5,410
There is context. Heaven is qualitatively superior to the 2-A structure, making it baseline Low 1-C. (5D). You can ask any staff about it and they would agree. If you want this rule to be changed, then you would need to make a CRT about it.
Wiki assumes the lowball. it would be a 5D space
Where does it say that heaven is above the realms??
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #90
That isn't context. That's just what it is, it transcends a 2-A structure. That alone only means it is Low 1-C but no specificity of just being baseline from what we know because there are scaling of other realms before the Silver City. I haven't seen a staff arguing for it other than the obvious it's above a 2-A structure.
Wiki would also have to assume other realms below the City before just making it just for the City. There shouldn't be a lowball unless there isn't any other context to support that beyond it's just being equivalent to a 5-D space.
For the Dreaming it's outside reality but also a mirror reflection. It doesn't transcend Creation, it is the opposite of Creation, and beyond that is the Void. The City of Stars is located outside the Dreaming and its residency stops at Night which is the boundless night before Creation. The City was made on that same Night before the First Dawn.
Dreaming - The definitive opposite of reality(Creation). Stops its limit to the Abyss(Darkness Before Time)
City of Stars - The collection of all the stars in Creations. Dreaming doesn't affect it and stops at Night reaching all aspects of Creation.
The Silver City - Born from the Darkness when everything was Void. At its edge is the infinite Abyss which completely transcends Creation and is above both the City of Stars and the Dreaming.
- 11,987
- 5,410
6D?? Are you sure??? Silver City can be 5-D and still have a Low 1-C tier
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #92
It's not baseline that's the thing. The Endless and their realms are more suited as baseline Low 1-C.
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #94
I do not believe anyone said this because the SC doesn't have QS, it's simply above the Dreaming in the hierarchy and beyond it in location.
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #95
To clarify something Dreaming doesn't have any qualitative superiority over Creation. Dream as well as any Endless defines an aspect of Creation in this case Reality/Dream. If we use that by logic and also we take the story telling us Dream is the Dreaming, vice versa, then that's the only way to account for the fact SC has QS over Creation and The Dreaming. They are mirror reflections of each other, it's just the realm is not within Creation. While as the City itself fully transcends Reality and by that virtue the Dreamworld as well. They are after all the byproducts of Yahweh's approach to Creation making.
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #96
Actually, let me reclarify it again. The Dreaming isn't located in the Multiverse per se but it's still within Creation.
The Universe as Mike Carey puts it is the adjacent of saying everything. It's expressed as the Totality of the structure.
The Multiverse is the “multiplicity” of worlds, dimensions, and realms within a structure.
Creation is the all-encompassing structure as he clarifies Lucifer made not a Universe, not a Multiverse but a Creation that is all-encompassing.
The Dreaming has no QS over the Multiverse and it's everything that is not real as opposed to reality being real. It's still contained within the Void where the City floats by the virtue of SC transcending Creation then it also technically transcends the Dreaming.
The Universe as Mike Carey puts it is the adjacent of saying everything. It's expressed as the Totality of the structure.
The Multiverse is the “multiplicity” of worlds, dimensions, and realms within a structure.
Creation is the all-encompassing structure as he clarifies Lucifer made not a Universe, not a Multiverse but a Creation that is all-encompassing.
The Dreaming has no QS over the Multiverse and it's everything that is not real as opposed to reality being real. It's still contained within the Void where the City floats by the virtue of SC transcending Creation then it also technically transcends the Dreaming.
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
- 385
Simply being far above something doesn't indicate superiority or transcendence and the characters looking down at creation literally kind of disproves the idea that it's referring to higher dimensions.
I don't really see why we don't simply use the Multiversity/Perpetua diagram of the multiverse. Since Lucifer met the Source wall it's quite clear the usual DC cosmology is being used here.
I don't really see why we don't simply use the Multiversity/Perpetua diagram of the multiverse. Since Lucifer met the Source wall it's quite clear the usual DC cosmology is being used here.
- 11,987
- 5,410
The dreaming is Low 1-C...and Silver City also views that as glitters/small sparkles?
- 11,987
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It doesn't always have to refer to high dimension for qualitative superiority. For example you can have 6D AP without higher dimensional existence.
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #100
The City does transcends Creation and also the Dreaming by the logic I just explained. I had to reiterate what I said because we for so long have been confused about what Dreaming is when compared to Creation.
The Dreaming is a “realm” and the Multiverse is comprised of worlds(Universes) and realms.
Separate headcanons.
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #101
It's only referring to the Universe. Creation still contains the Dreaming, it's a realm and the Multiverse contains worlds and realms. The City isn't a realm.
When Gaiman said it is not Paradise or Heaven it's because it's not within the order of created things. The Endless came with their respected Creation and so did their realm.
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
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Context is key. It's clear here they're talking about cosmological position and not transcendence, is my point.
- 7,836
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You probably just mean "separate canons" here. Headcanon refers to a personal belief about a story that isn't actually in the story.
- 11,987
- 5,410
Toddler. Just say yes or no
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #105
Kind of nit-picking here Deagon but yes. I don't think we should mesh the Cosmologies together. There are just too many differences.
The irony here. It's telling us the City transcends it and from the viewpoints of beings. Lucifer and Yahweh can view Creation from the Void.
Yes.Toddler. Just say yes or no
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #107
Apologies. I have a habit of needing to answer questions because this thread is all over the place.
- 11,987
- 5,410
Ok good. Now i see why Silver City is 6D.
Dreaming - 5D (Low 1-C)
Silver City - 6D (Low 1-C)
Mansion of Silence - 6D (Low 1-C)
Elaine's transcendence over them - 7D (1-C). Lucifer, Michael etc scales to this
is this correct?
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #109
I think we should implement the logic the Endless realms are within Creation. However, since this is not focusing on that then yes that looks correct.
- 7,836
- 14,855
I should also note that cross-scaling between multiple cosmologies isn't disallowed, there just needs to be clear evidence for it. For instance, Perpetua obviously should not scale to DeMatteis or Vertigo, but it is feasible to consider the Presence as scaling to all of them, since he is present in each one.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Following, though I don't know enough to really participate. If this revision goes through, I hope it'll make the tiers for Vertigo easy enough to understand to alleviate the concerns I raised about it in the DC general thread.
- 2,151
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The Dreaming is not particularly separate to the dimensional complexity of the Universe though, hasnt it been established that both fall under the same Temporal dimension?
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #113
The Dreaming doesn't have time though. It's located within Creation but it doesn't mean it follows the rules of the Universe.
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
- 385
I am not contesting that. I'm just saying the evidence used here is poor and cannot be used as evidence for an upgrade in dimensionality.
Yes, I saw it. I did not really understand it.
I know.
That are still being used on the profiles. You haven't really explained why it's inapplicable here.
They're the same at a certain point, particularly the source wall.
Both "transcendence" scans just tells us angels look at creation from it. That's wholly unquantifiable.
False equivalence, considering the Void has numerous transcendence quotes such as Lucifer escaping The Presence's control and Stiltman's exclamation.
Those two are not even remotely the same here, or at least not with the evidence given.
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That doesn't seem likely, given that Dream says he was there when the laws of the universe were set.
- 11,987
- 5,410
your getting confused. Its not an upgrade in higher dimensional existence, its an upgrade in size. We just use the words "6D, 5D etc" as a way of saying Low 1-C
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
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I am already aware, which is why I said that superiority has not been shown here.
- 11,987
- 5,410
this is not a discussion for that
please lets stop derailing and get back on topic
- 2,987
- 2,192
- Thread starter
- #119
By transcending something that is Low 1-C it would upgrade it in dimensionality. The problem comes from the fact that the Dreaming is scaled as Low 1-C and that's at least 5-D space yet Creation is only 2-A despite it being within Creation.
Dreaming is a realm and it's within the Multiverse because the Multiverse is comprised of realms and dimensions. The City transcends the Multiverse by that virtue of logic it does to the Dreaming as well.
Then your earlier claim wouldn't be as confusing as you thought it be.
I said separate but it's not say it cannot be used. We can still scale the Presence and with that, his family as well. If we are using the characters from how they're interpreted from their respected Cosmology than it would just look confusing.
I never denied there were similarities rather there are differences in each Cosmology. I just suggest it's better if we treat them as different.
The narration doesn't come from the Angels. We just know that it does and for the resident, the Universe glitters and glistens like a child's toy. That is describing how the Universe would look not the actual size. Angels do have an unnatural perception of things.
Lucifer didn't escape the Presence control. He just escape the Plan of Yahweh by going to the Void. The Circle of Eternity was finished by Elaine becoming Godhood.
They are, given that beings can still view things that are supposedly transcendent by a greater quality.
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CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
- 385
Okay.
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