Duel of the Deuteragonists Vol. 2: Moss vs Sauce

[MonkeyOfLife]

Haki being verse equalized to counter things like Chakra-Based GJ or Rinnegan BFR because of their interactions with Devil Fruits does not work at all.

Nothing is being verse equalized, genjutsu manipulates the mind by putting chakra in ones mind or something like that if I remember correctly... Haki resists Mind manipulation and illusion and perception manipulation and can be negated with usage of alot of haki... There is no verse equalization when the abilities are the same, that's how vsbw works

For one, on the Haki Page, all that is accepted is that Haki can nullify or negate the abilities of Devil Fruits via four statements of that being proven to be the case.

Nullify and negate are the same thing btw, there are not only four statements... Even if there were only four statments, that would definitely be enough... Idk how you're trying to say like that's a bad thing?

given that this is portrayed by the story as a universal rule for how strong Haki can specifically interact this way with all Devil Fruits(although the exact effect Haki has on an individual Devil Fruit may vary) this effect should be treated as a weakness of Devil Fruits rather than a power that Haki can translate into negating the effects of any power in any verse just because a Devil Fruit exists with a name similar to said power.

No... Literally your going against the profile and the verse if you are saying it's a weakness to devil fruits... That is simply not the case

Haki is stated to transcend abilities, not that the abilities themselves are a weakness to haki... That's never ever been a thing or has been stated

Haki is overcoming the ability by utilizing ones own willpower

Only for the Sea and Devil Fruits is it an actual weakness to devil fruits

Luckily that's where SBA helps out One Piece a bit since not many power systems exist that are 1 to 1 with how Haki and Devil Fruits interact with each other.

Verse Equalization states that:

"Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

"However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization."

"Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."

You do know that devil fruits isn't a supernatural energy right..? Haki doesn't only resist abilities from the devil fruits but from many different abilities outside of the devil fruits (Devil fruit abilities themselves aren't magic based or anything, the powers are manifested by ones desires through human evolution, so yes it would affect other verses with the same abilities when battling against haki)

Devil Fruits are abilities that come from the alteration of genetics via supernatural fruits with a stated weakness to powerful Buso Haki.

They are not supernatural and has never been stated to be a "weakness" to powerful buso

Chakra-based abilities are energy-based via transmuted life force incorporating the esoteric aspects of the mind, body, and soul with no such weakness.

Which are abilities that still work the same way any other ability would

That's like saying no character on the wiki can resist chakra based abilities because they are chakra based...

Haki and Chakra have far more in common than Chakra and Devil Fruits and even then its small similarities (spiritual energies incorporating aspects of life force.)

Haki is not one's life force, it's ones manifested willpower

If haki was one's life force, devil fruits like the soul fruit or the revive fruit would be able to manipulate and interact with it

but yeah until it's accepted in a CRT that Haki negates all abilities rather than just DF abilities, we go off of what is currently accepted.

So it's not being used to negate the abilities of a power system that isn't already inherently similar to DFs.

It already is... Since devil fruit themselves are natural abilities and have been showcased that way...

Lasers from kizaru and lasers from pacifista both are the same thing, or naturally generated fire and flame fruit is the same thing

Haki only resisting abilities from devil fruits have never been the case... Only that it's stated to block all abilities from devil fruits which is a simple why of showing the many things it can resist instead of listing all the abilities like this and having to update them regularly

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

To add to this, Sasuke tends to combine his swordsmanship with chidori amps and teleportation. Unless I'm missing something Zoros profile doesn't say he resists electricity based paralysis which is something that Sasuke will definitely try to hit him with even if Zoro blocks the attack.

To make matters worse, as someone else pointed out, Sasuke can disarm Zoro with ameno. But that wouldn't even be the worst thing. Sasuke could actually hit Zoro with a chidori by doing so while allowing himself to attack Zoro with his own sword

So Sasuke should have a pretty notable advantage

Haki is unaffected by lightning

And Zoro can create a forcefield and hit Sasuke without touching him with adv buso

Haki simply resist teleporting abilities

 

[Kachon123]

Voting Zoro lol. He's far more skilled. On top of what Reaper said about Hachi, Zoro did all that while having less than half a liter of blood in his body, on the verge of passing out, and having a rising fever. Zoro almost 900 chapters ago literally reached the pinnacle of swordsmanship. I mean you can't even say that Sasuke is more skilled than Zoro due simply to the fact that Zoro is grated Extraordinary Genius for his fighting skills while Sasuke is just a Genius. I mean, just read Zoro's intelligence section. I don't really know how this can be a argument.

Zoro's precog is also much, much better than Sasuke's. @Kidkinsey said that Pre-Advanced Kenbun and Sharingan are near identical in terms of predicting, and while this is clearly wrong due to the latter working by reading muscle movements while Kenbun literally reads the mind, emotions, and intent to know what the person does in the future, Zoro even before awakening Kenbun was able to out-predict Ohm (who is above standard Pre-Advanced Kenbun due to having the range of the entire Upper Yard) by using The Breath of All Things. TBAT has literal divination and is able to tell Zoro the timing, power, speed, and more of the enemy. Even without TBAT or Kenbun, Zoro was already out-predicting people with beginning stages of Kenbun. Adding his own Kenbun to that and it's pretty obvious who has better precog.

Sasuke's speed amps are pretty shit. Shunshin is at best comparable to Soru. Zoro without using TBAT or Kenbun is already skilled enough to be able to predict the movements of people moving FTE to him with ease. Adding Kenbun to his combat, which grants far better reactions and perceptions (enough that allowed a regular girl to react to the speed of lightning), I really doubt Zoro would even get touched much here.

Zoro's own speed amps with Iai attacks would be far too much for Sasuke to react to even with Sharingan, so if he lands those Sasuke would be in big trouble since they're all durability negation.

Zoro's Haki allows him to negate/resist Sasuke's Genjutsu as well as his spatial manipulation, which removes a couple of wincons. Zoro's flame rend allows him to avoid getting harmed by any fire style jutsu, and his his Buso Barrier which would make pretty much every other type of attack to be stopped before hitting him.

Zoro's higher AP with Enma Unleashed and Haō Infusion would make it really difficult for Zoro to keep up, but once he uses En-Ō Santoryu or stronger attacks like Dragon Damnation, he would literally be able to oneshot Sasuke due to being able to force a Flame on King to dodge and oneshotting him.

 

[Godernet]

Nothing is being verse equalized, genjutsu manipulates the mind by putting chakra in ones mind or something like that if I remember correctly...

you'd be incorrect,

Haki resists Mind manipulation and illusion and perception manipulation and can be negated with usage of alot of haki...

I'm aware however Layered Haki doesn't translate to Layered Mind Manipulation Resistance.

There is no verse equalization when the abilities are the same, that's how vsbw works

thats what i just said

Nullify and negate are the same thing btw, there are not only four statements... Even if there were only four statments, that would definitely be enough... Idk how you're trying to say like that's a bad thing?

did I ever say it was a bad thing?

what I did say is that the statements are consistently in reference to Devil Fruit abilities.

No... Literally your going against the profile and the verse if you are saying it's a weakness to devil fruits... That is simply not the case

yeah that's just not true,

Resistance to

• Devil Fruit abilities (Buso Haki has been stated to be able to block devil fruit abilities[57], seen when Doflamingo blocked Trafalgar Law's Amputate[58] and when Trafalgar Law stated that his Shambles ability would not work against those with superior Buso to him[59])

Intermediate Stage​

• Devil Fruit Negation (Intense enough Haki can counteract and negate Devil Fruit abilities, seen when Trafalgar Law negated the effects of the Feminization Disease from the Sick-Sick Fruit[63])

Haki is stated to transcend abilities, not that the abilities themselves are a weakness to haki... That's never ever been a thing or has been stated

notice how Kaido called their world convenient for it

every miscellaneous power in their world is Devil Fruit related, in fact there are various times when someone in verse sees a strange ability and the automatic assumption is that it's a devil fruit ability, because outside of Haki and tech via people like Franky, Vegapunk, Queen, Germa, etc.(which Haki has no proof of Negating), every power in the verse is a Devil Fruit ability.

this statement does not prove Haki negates all abilities in every verse lmao. all it proves is that Haki can transcend every power in their verse.

Haki is overcoming the ability by utilizing ones own willpower

funny that you mention that because this is what SBA says about this type of resistance.

"For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses."

Only for the Sea and Devil Fruits is it an actual weakness to devil fruits

Seawater and Seaprism > DFs is a universally known and displayed thing, with no exceptions which is why its a weakness.

explain why is strong Haki > DFs treated differently.

You do know that devil fruits isn't a supernatural energy right..?

I'm guessing you weren't reading.

Me in the last comment: "Devil Fruits are abilities that come from the alteration of genetics via supernatural fruits with a stated weakness to powerful Buso Haki."

Haki doesn't only resist abilities from the devil fruits but from many different abilities outside of the devil fruits

like?

(Devil fruit abilities themselves aren't magic based or anything, the powers are manifested by ones desires through human evolution, so yes it would affect other verses with the same abilities when battling against haki)

mhm, i said as much

They are not supernatural

fruits that grant abilities beyond the normal human capabilities is supernatural.

having a devil fruit isn't considered natural in verse

and has never been stated to be a "weakness" to powerful buso

it doesnt need to be directly stated,

If DFs have a caveat that if anyone with strong enough Haki attempts to stop one of their abilities from working, the ability gets countered, that is a weakness.

Which are abilities that still work the same way any other ability would

ignoring me showing that they dont work at all similarly lol

That's like saying no character on the wiki can resist chakra based abilities because they are chakra based...

did I say that? No

Chi-based abilities can interact with Chakra-based ones just fine.

DFs arent Chi based.

Haki is not one's life force, it's ones manifested willpower

did I say Haki was life force? No

I said it incorporated aspects of it, namely spirit.

It already is... Since devil fruit themselves are natural abilities and have been showcased that way...

yeah except it isn't accepted as I already showed.

Lasers from kizaru and lasers from pacifista both are the same thing, or naturally generated fire and flame fruit is the same thing

stop trying to justify it and go get it accepted in a CRT then.

Haki only resisting abilities from devil fruits have never been the case... Only that it's stated to block all abilities from devil fruits which is a simple why of showing the many things it can resist instead of listing all the abilities like this and having to update them regularly

nothing you said changes anything,

You basically said "Haki isn't stated to only negate DFs, just that the statements we get say they negate DFs."

that still means that the assumption that they can negate things that arent Devil Fruits is unfounded, not to mention not accepted in any CRTs, so irrelevant to this thread.

so yeah back to square one, until it's accepted in a CRT, Haki doesn't negate GJ or Spatial BFR that isn't the OP OP no Mi's

 

[SlendVeny]

What's the mind manip ability that Haki canonically resists? Are we scaling it off the memory loss from Moria?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Zoro did all that while having less than half a liter of blood in his body

this sh1et be crazy

 

[Godernet]

Voting Zoro lol. He's far more skilled. On top of what Reaper said about Hachi, Zoro did all that while having less than half a liter of blood in his body, on the verge of passing out, and having a rising fever. Zoro almost 900 chapters ago literally reached the pinnacle of swordsmanship.

semantic arguments via statements are irrelevant for comparing their skills, one of those isnt even a skill statement, just good endurance.

I mean you can't even say that Sasuke is more skilled than Zoro due simply to the fact that Zoro is grated Extraordinary Genius for his fighting skills while Sasuke is just a Genius. I mean, just read Zoro's intelligence section. I don't really know how this can be a argument.

Zoro being EG in of itself is bad,

If being a gifted swordsman that can develop their own styles of combat, fight swordsman with unconventional styles, analyze and anticipate opponent movements, copy techniques, and strike vitals was enough for EG, PM competent swordsman in shounen would be EG.

Zoro's precog is also much, much better than Sasuke's. @Kidkinsey said that Pre-Advanced Kenbun and Sharingan are near identical in terms of predicting, and while this is clearly wrong due to the latter working by reading muscle movements while Kenbun literally reads the mind, emotions, and intent to know what the person does in the future, Zoro even before awakening Kenbun was able to out-predict Ohm (who is above standard Pre-Advanced Kenbun due to having the range of the entire Upper Yard) by using The Breath of All Things. TBAT has literal divination and is able to tell Zoro the timing, power, speed, and more of the enemy. Even without TBAT or Kenbun, Zoro was already out-predicting people with beginning stages of Kenbun. Adding his own Kenbun to that and it's pretty obvious who has better precog.

like Neo said earlier, just cause one utilizes muscle movements and the other utilizes mind, emotions, and intent, doesn't mean one is superior to the other because they simply both provide the effect that they both can understand a persons movements way before their opponents make them.

Sasuke's speed amps are pretty shit. Shunshin is at best comparable to Soru. Zoro without using TBAT or Kenbun is already skilled enough to be able to predict the movements of people moving FTE to him with ease.

the Sharingan does this

Adding Kenbun to his combat, which grants far better reactions and perceptions (enough that allowed a regular girl to react to the speed of lightning),

the rinnegan and six paths senses does this.

Zoro's own speed amps with Iai attacks would be far too much for Sasuke to react to even with Sharingan, so if he lands those Sasuke would be in big trouble since they're all durability negation.

using Part 1 scans when Part 2 Sasuke regularly reacts to people far faster than him lol

Zoro's Haki allows him to negate/resist Sasuke's Genjutsu as well as his spatial manipulation, which removes a couple of wincons.

not until yall make a CRT for Haki

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

What's the mind manip ability that Haki canonically resists? Are we scaling it off the memory loss from Moria?

Brook is one of them

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

using Part 1 scans when Part 2 Sasuke regularly reacts to people far faster than him lol

raikage fight didnt happen

 

[Godernet]

so since Haki isn't negating GJ or Amenotejikara

Sasuke's wincons are:

• Beating Zoro early on due to AP gap
• GJ (Basic or at worse case scenario Izanami)
• BFR via Amenotejikara
• Soul Rip
• Sealing via CT
• Death Manip via KOH (albeit Adult Sauce probably won't try this)
• Outlasting En-O Zoro if it gets to that point.

Zoro's wincons are:

• Beating Sasuke with AP in stronger forms (via Adv Hao and En-O Santoryu)
• LS (Not that Zoro usually chooses to do that over using his sword styles)

Sasuke's wincons require glances to get off for the most part while Zoro's requires his strongest form to oneshot Sasuke before overtaxing his maximum Haki output via Enma makes him drop.

Sasuke has shown he can contend and evade people much stronger than him and Zoro via Kaguya, Jigen, and Isshiki through use of illusions, teleportation, substitution, or just good evasion via sharingan.

Both do have valid forms of knowing what the other will do before they even try it.t.

But if Sasuke does take any kind of incapacitating damage he can use Izanagi as a last resort to negate the damage and kill Zoro with the entire minute of being able to ignore injury or death.

Sasuke should handily take this.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

so since Haki isn't negating GJ or Amenotejikara

Sasuke's wincons are:

• Beating Zoro early on due to AP gap
• GJ (Basic or at worse case scenario Izanami)
• BFR via Amenotejikara
• Soul Rip
• Sealing via CT
• Death Manip via KOH (albeit Adult Sauce probably won't try this)
• Outlasting En-O Zoro if it gets to that point.

I agree with most of this, should also add that he can just freeze Zoro with ice release as well.

 

[SlendVeny]

I agree with most of this, should also add that he can just freeze Zoro with ice release as well.

Ok, Haki factually does break you out of ice.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

so since Haki isn't negating GJ or Amenotejikara

It does

Resistance to
Devil Fruit abilities (Buso Haki has been stated to be able to block devil fruit abilities[57], seen when Doflamingo blocked Trafalgar Law's Amputate[58] and when Trafalgar Law stated that his Shambles ability would not work against those with superior Buso to him[59])

Kage Kage no Mi and Mira Mira no Mi. Maybe another one, idk, that DF page is huge.

I agree with most of this, should also add that he can just freeze Zoro with ice release as well.

Resists via resisting Brook's fruit + Haki breaks ice.

Sasuke's wincons are:

• Beating Zoro early on due to AP gap

Not a massive one

• BFR via Amenotejikara
• Soul Rip
• Sealing via CT
• Death Manip via KOH (albeit Adult Sauce probably won't try this)

All Haki resists. Also, willpower alone can resist soul manip.

• Outlasting En-O Zoro if it gets to that point.

Valid I guess.

Zoro's wincons are:

• Beating Sasuke with AP in stronger forms (via Adv Hao and En-O Santoryu)
• LS (Not that Zoro usually chooses to do that over using his sword styles)

Sasuke's wincons require glances to get off for the most part while Zoro's requires his strongest form to oneshot Sasuke before overtaxing his maximum Haki output via Enma makes him drop.

Not if he resists.

Sasuke has shown he can contend and evade people much stronger than him and Zoro via Kaguya, Jigen, and Isshiki through use of illusions, teleportation, substitution, or just good evasion via sharingan.

Good evasion isn't helping him against someone who has fought agile opponents and who is agile himself. Zoro's AD will also allow him to grow stronger, so the gap will be closed.

But if Sasuke does take any kind of incapacitating damage he can use Izanagi as a last resort to negate the damage and kill Zoro with the entire minute of being able to ignore injury or death.

I guess

 

[Kidkinsey]

I'm aware that Obs and sharingan go about it differently but as I and others have said, if the end result is still knowing exactly what's coming its hard to say one is definitely better then the other. Sasuke saw a freeze frame play by play of EXACTLY what naruto was going to do just because he didn't read his emotions or mind during it dosen't make it less effective

The body flicker/substitution speed amp is also being a bit downplayed. It's so fast and tricky at times people think they actually hit the target.

Also I forgot in addition to sasuke being able to absorb zoros wind slashes and other techniques, he could just negate them all with almighty push which he know he nullify attacks that are capable of one shotting the user. Zoro would essentially just be forced to try to hack and slash away for a W

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

so since Haki isn't negating GJ or Amenotejikara

Sasuke's wincons are:

• Beating Zoro early on due to AP gap
• GJ (Basic or at worse case scenario Izanami)
• BFR via Amenotejikara
• Soul Rip
• Sealing via CT
• Death Manip via KOH (albeit Adult Sauce probably won't try this)
• Outlasting En-O Zoro if it gets to that point.

Zoro's wincons are:

• Beating Sasuke with AP in stronger forms (via Adv Hao and En-O Santoryu)
• LS (Not that Zoro usually chooses to do that over using his sword styles)

Sasuke's wincons require glances to get off for the most part while Zoro's requires his strongest form to oneshot Sasuke before overtaxing his maximum Haki output via Enma makes him drop.

Sasuke has shown he can contend and evade people much stronger than him and Zoro via Kaguya, Jigen, and Isshiki through use of illusions, teleportation, substitution, or just good evasion via sharingan.

Both do have valid forms of knowing what the other will do before they even try it.t.

But if Sasuke does take any kind of incapacitating damage he can use Izanagi as a last resort to negate the damage and kill Zoro with the entire minute of being able to ignore injury or death.

Sasuke should handily take this.

And in worst case Scenario, if they really want push the issue on Pre-Cog abilities, Sasuke drops his Mineral Dust Bombs and takes Pre-cog off the table for everyone. Now Zoro has to fight a Skilled Ninja w/o CoO.

 

[Godernet]

It does

I'm guessing you didnt read the previous comments because not even SBA agrees that willpower based abilities should translate to every power system.

And with no proof on any of the pages supporting it + the Haki page specifically stating otherwise.

It doesn't

Not a massive one

i didnt say it was, just a wincon

All Haki resists. Also, willpower alone can resist soul manip.

SBA Page: "mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses."

this applies to other hax too btw

Not if he resists.

he's not

Good evasion isn't helping him against someone who has fought agile opponents and who is agile himself. Zoro's AD will also allow him to grow stronger, so the gap will be closed.

in En-O mode, he has to finish things quicker to avoid being incap, his accelerated development wont be that useful here.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

what I did say is that the statements are consistently in reference to Devil Fruit abilities.

Kaido said "those with powers" and that haki transcends all

Which wouldn't be only referring to devil fruits

yeah that's just not true,

Resistance to

• Devil Fruit abilities (Buso Haki has been stated to be able to block devil fruit abilities[57], seen when Doflamingo blocked Trafalgar Law's Amputate[58] and when Trafalgar Law stated that his Shambles ability would not work against those with superior Buso to him[59])

Intermediate Stage​

• Devil Fruit Negation (Intense enough Haki can counteract and negate Devil Fruit abilities, seen when Trafalgar Law negated the effects of the Feminization Disease from the Sick-Sick Fruit[63])

... Not a weakness

notice how Kaido called their world convenient for it

every miscellaneous power in their world is Devil Fruit related, in fact there are various times when someone in verse sees a strange ability and the automatic assumption is that it's a devil fruit ability, because outside of Haki and tech via people like Franky, Vegapunk, Queen, Germa, etc.(which Haki has no proof of Negating), every power in the verse is a Devil Fruit ability.

this statement does not prove Haki negates all abilities in every verse lmao. all it proves is that Haki can transcend every power in their verse.

This is simply not true, most places in the world don't even know if devil fruits even exist in the first place and is just a popular rumor

The fire manipulation of Luffy and Sanji isn't from any devil fruit ability or the fire from King isn't from a devil fruit ability yet will still get resisted by haki.

funny that you mention that because this is what SBA says about this type of resistance.

"For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses."

Not the same type of resistance... Willpower usage /=/ Haki usage

Willpower is only the converter for the utilization of haki

Use haki with willpower to resist... Not use haki that is a usage of willpower that resists

Seawater and Seaprism > DFs is a universally known and displayed thing, with no exceptions which is why its a weakness.

And specifically stated as well

explain why is strong Haki > DFs treated differently.

Because haki transcends/overcomes the ability... One is overpowering the ability, the other is draining/weakening it

I'm guessing you weren't reading.

Me in the last comment: "Devil Fruits are abilities that come from the alteration of genetics via supernatural fruits with a stated weakness to powerful Buso Haki."

I did read, and that stated is simply not true. Show me where it's stated that devil fruits weakness is strong buso

like?

mhm, i said as much

Cap.

fruits that grant abilities beyond the normal human capabilities is supernatural.

having a devil fruit isn't considered natural in verse

The abilities themselves are natural

it doesnt need to be directly stated,

If DFs have a caveat that if anyone with strong enough Haki attempts to stop one of their abilities from working, the ability gets countered, that is a weakness.

No... Because Haki doesn't weaken their devil fruit abilities or the devil fruit... It combats them

ignoring me showing that they dont work at all similarly lol

So you are saying genjutsu shouldn't have those abilities listed then

did I say Haki was life force? No

I said it incorporated aspects of it, namely spirit.

Still wrong, there's is 0 usage of one's life force... The spirit here doesn't refer to one's soul

The three categories of utlizatiom is Presence, Fighting spirit and Intimidation

"Haki" is a power that lies dormant in all the world's creatures... "Presence", "fighting spirit" and "intimidation"... It is not different from the things that humans can naturally sense such as these... 'The act of not doubting'. That is strength!

yeah except it isn't accepted as I already showed.

They are... Otherwise artificial devil fruits wouldn't be a thing and logias wouldn't be able to manipulate real/natural elements

stop trying to justify it and go get it accepted in a CRT then.

What am I meant to go and get accepted?

Those non devil fruit abilities that gets resisted are already existing devil fruit abilities

nothing you said changes anything,

You basically said "Haki isn't stated to only negate DFs, just that the statements we get say they negate DFs."

that still means that the assumption that they can negate things that arent Devil Fruits is unfounded, not to mention not accepted in any CRTs, so irrelevant to this thread.

so yeah back to square one, until it's accepted in a CRT, Haki doesn't negate GJ or Spatial BFR that isn't the OP OP no Mi's

They are literally shown and stated to resist abilities outside of devil fruits.

Resistance to

• Heat Manipulation (Sanji states that Buso assists him in withstanding heat[60])

Since we don't know the full mechanics of sanjis's new fire/heat ability, we can't assume that flame fruit or heat fruit can do the same

So its already an accepted thing on the haki page otherwise haki resisting sanji's heat wouldn't be there.

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

I was neutral at first but after reading the last 3 posts from Net. I vote the Uchiha Avenger for the win.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

And with no proof on any of the pages supporting it + the Haki page specifically stating otherwise.

The Haki page stated it works against DF abilities, not DFs themselves. Also, the Haki page needs to be fixed at some point.

It doesn't

It does by my argument.

i didnt say it was, just a wincon

SBA Page: "mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses."

One Piece willpower straight up resists EE, it's not some kinda normal bs willpower, it's hax.

this applies to other hax too btw

Haki in OP straight up is hax, even if it's willpower. And Haki is the result of willpower, not willpower alone.

he's not

Again, with my arguments, he does.

in En-O mode, he has to finish things quicker to avoid being incap, his accelerated development wont be that useful here.

He doesn't start in En-Ō.

 

[Testarossa002]

Sasuke's wincons require glances to get off for the most part while Zoro's requires his strongest form to oneshot Sasuke before overtaxing his maximum Haki output via Enma makes him drop.

Is it even going to be a oneshot?
Sasuke can take hits from people who are 3x his durability and still be in fighting shape even going to be astronomically higher when the 5-B thread gets made
zoro isn't even 2x that

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

I'm aware that Obs and sharingan go about it differently but as I and others have said, if the end result is still knowing exactly what's coming its hard to say one is definitely better then the other. Sasuke saw a freeze frame play by play of EXACTLY what naruto was going to do just because he didn't read his emotions or mind during it dosen't make it less effective

The body flicker/substitution speed amp is also being a bit downplayed. It's so fast and tricky at times people think they actually hit the target.

Also I forgot in addition to sasuke being able to absorb zoros wind slashes and other techniques, he could just negate them all with almighty push which he know he nullify attacks that are capable of one shotting the user. Zoro would essentially just be forced to try to hack and slash away for a W

Sasuke vs Ranged Slashes…

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Kaido said "those with powers" and that haki transcends all

Which wouldn't be only referring to devil fruits

NLF. Outside of Haki related abilities, 98% of the Verse doesn’t have other powers or abilities if they aren’t DF related. You’re taking Kaido’s statement massively out of context.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

NLF. Outside of Haki related abilities, 98% of the Verse doesn’t have other powers or abilities if they aren’t DF related. You’re taking Kaido’s statement massively out of context.

Not NLF... Because I'm not saying it refers to literally everything... I'm saying it's not referring to only devil fruits.

Haki already is shown to resists abilities outside of devil fruits... So that doesn't matter.

 

[Kachon123]

@Godernet Haki transcends the abilities themselves, not an overarching "DF abilities." Haki has never been stated to be a weakness of devil fruits.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Anyone ignoring the abilities of haki simply won't be considered as a valid vote

 

[Kachon123]

Anyone ignoring the abilities of haki simply won't be considered as a valid vote

Literally lmao because that's what's accepted currently.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Not NLF... Because I'm not saying it refers to literally everything... I'm saying it's not referring to only devil fruits.

You’re playing semantics. There isn’t another type of ability it refers to in their verse because if it’s not Haki related, it’s DF related. Iirc, the ONLY other Supernatural ability in verse is FMK, which Haki HASN’T shown negating iirc.

You cannot extrapolate that to meaning it can nullify abilities based on mechanics that aren’t present in the verse. It’s the same reason we can’t use Yin/Yang release the same way in other verses for ability nullification.

So yes, you are very much arguing Haki as a NLF.

Haki already is shown to resists abilities outside of devil fruits... So that doesn't matter.

By all means, refresh my memory. What abilities?

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Anyone ignoring the abilities of haki simply won't be considered as a valid vote

Nobody is ignoring it. Pointing out you guys are taking things out of context is very valid.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

By all means, refresh my memory. What abilities?

Resistance to

• Heat Manipulation (Sanji states that Buso assists him in withstanding heat[60])

Literally accepted on the haki page, saying haki only resist devil fruits goes against the profiles and won't be considered as a valid vote.

 

[Godernet]

Kaido said those with powers and that haki transcends all

those with powers in the OP world are DF users. with technology and haki being the only exceptions really.

that statement doesnt apply to power systems in other verses.

if a character in fiction says they can negate all powers in this world, that does not immediately translate to all verses, context matters more than the statement itself.

... Not a weakness

A weakness would usually be a flaw of some sort they have (personality-wise or ability-wise) that can be exploited in some fashion.

DF abilities being able to be nulled and resisted via Strong Haki is the definition of a weakness.

This is simply not true, most places in the world don't even know if devil fruits even exist in the first place and is just a popular rumor

to weak seas like the east blue or just uninvolved normal people yes,

to combatants on the grandline(revolutionaries, marines, pirates, etc.) the immediate assumption is that it's a DF ability.

there's no other ability in op besides Haki, DFs or Tech, so peoples knowledge of it still doesnt matter.

The fire manipulation of Luffy and Sanji isn't from any devil fruit ability or the fire from King isn't from a devil fruit ability yet will still get resisted by haki.

temperature resistance isn't conventional hax,

just because someone has armor that can resist heat doesn't mean that armor lets them negate all spatial abilities in existence.

Not the same type of resistance... Willpower usage /=/ Haki usage

Willpower is only the converter for the utilization of haki

Use haki with willpower to resist... Not use haki that is a usage of willpower that resists

ignoring that, this is not what you said before that doesn't change anything.

And specifically stated as well

Because haki transcends/overcomes the ability... One is overpowering the ability, the other is draining/weakening it

I did read, and that stated is simply not true. Show me where it's stated that devil fruits weakness is strong buso

you do realize the word "weakness" doesn't need to be stated for something to be a weakness.

if something is universally effective against another thing with no caveats, that is the textbook definition of a weakness.

Cap.

me in the previous comments:

"So for two verses' abilities to be equalized, they have to be similar in conception, not possess any weaknesses, caveats, or limitations that would contradict them being similar, and mechanically similar."

"Devil Fruits are abilities that come from the alteration of genetics"

The abilities themselves are natural

why does this change anything?

No... Because Haki doesn't weaken their devil fruit abilities or the devil fruit... It combats them

whatever verbage you use doesnt change what it is.

So you are saying genjutsu shouldn't have those abilities listed then

im saying they dont qualify to be equalized at all.

Still wrong, there's is 0 usage of one's life force... The spirit here doesn't refer to one's soul

spirit in chakra isnt only in reference to the soul

What am I meant to go and get accepted?

that DFs negate all abilties not just DF ones like the page specifies

Those non devil fruit abilities that gets resisted are already existing devil fruit abilities

They are literally shown and stated to resist abilities outside of devil fruits.

you havent demonstrated anything like that (except heat which isnt even a hax)

So its already an accepted thing on the haki page otherwise haki resisting sanji's heat wouldn't be there.

again heat isnt a conventional hax so that means nothing.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

that DFs negate all abilties not just DF ones like the page specifies

the page doesn't say only devil fruits and has a non devil fruit ability as a resistance

Not needed.

 

[Kachon123]

By all means, refresh my memory. What abilities?

Luffy, Sanji, King resisting fire.

Luffy resisting Don Chinjao's electricity

Resisting Power null and absorption of Seastone via Haoshoku

 

[Godernet]

The Haki page stated it works against DF abilities, not DFs themselves. Also, the Haki page needs to be fixed at some point.

thats semantic gooning we both know im referring to DF abilities when I say DFs.

It does by my argument.

that's fine but you're argument doesnt work with how SBA works.

One Piece willpower straight up resists EE, it's not some kinda normal bs willpower, it's hax.

i mean resisting hax via willpower isnt normal anyways.

it resisting EE doesnt really mean anything in the context of other verses with power systems that arent similar.

Haki in OP straight up is hax, even if it's willpower. And Haki is the result of willpower, not willpower alone.

thats fine but thats also not the main point of the argument,

DF abilities cant be equalized with Chi-based abilities is the main point

because DF abilities are blatantly weak to Haki, and none of the haki statements reference anything that isn't Haki being negated.

He doesn't start in En-Ō.

I pointed out En-O mode because its the only way he'll be able to effectively damage Sasuke with how their AP and Dura compares.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Literally accepted on the haki page, saying haki only resist devil fruits goes against the profiles and won't be considered as a valid vote.

Bro…

Lmao! I’m done….

 

[Godernet]

Haki transcends the abilities themselves, not an overarching "DF abilities." Haki has never been stated to be a weakness of devil fruits.

weaknesses don't need to be blatantly stated to be weaknesses.

if something is a universal counter to another ability, with no caveats, its a weakness.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Luffy, Sanji, King resisting fire.

Not ability nullification.

Luffy resisting Don Chinjao's electricity

Luffy is Rubber… this is elementary.

Resisting Power null and absorption of Seastone via Haoshoku

Iirc, Seastone doesn’t negate Haki abilities, unless I overlooked something.

 

[Kachon123]

if something is a universal counter to another ability, with no caveats, its a weakness.

This is where you're wrong. Haki isn't a counter to "DF abilities," it's a counter to abilities in general. Kaidou specifically cited devil fruits because that's where most people get abilities from.

 

[Godernet]

Luffy, Sanji, King resisting fire.

fire and heat arent conventional hax.

Luffy resisting Don Chinjao's electricity

electricity isnt a conventional hax.

being able to tank lightning and heat doesnn't mean when now negate all hax in existence.

Resisting Power null and absorption of Seastone via Haoshoku

wasn't that cause the seaprism in the cuffs was weakened so they could work?

 

[Kachon123]

Luffy is Rubber… this is elementary.

Chinjao as well resisting his own electricity via Haki.

Iirc, Seastone doesn’t negate Haki abilities, unless I overlooked something.

Haoshoku Haki users resisted the draining affects of Seastone via Haki.

 

[Godernet]

This is where you're wrong. Haki isn't a counter to "DF abilities," it's a counter to abilities in general. Kaidou specifically cited devil fruits because that's where most people get abilities from.

if 99% of people use DFs for powers

and Kaido says Haki transcends powers.

why is the assumption the Haki now transcends all powers outside of the verse regardless of mechanics when the only other powers that exist are tech, and elemental stuff like heat and electricity, which isnt even treated the same way as normal hax on site?