Duel of the Deuteragonists Vol. 2: Moss vs Sauce

[Godernet]

Those are sea clouds. Regular clouds are able to be touched.

a df being able to touch clouds does not mean everyone can, Skypiea contradicts this quite a bit by having people regularly go thought clouds that are denser than those in the blue sea.

 

[Godernet]

What does having a soul have to do with being a solid? Both are compressed flames.

its a DF ability is the point, not just some random flame

 

[Kachon123]

its a DF ability is the point, not some random flame

Prometheus is not a Devil Fruit ability. His sentience is.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

heat isnt conventional hax so this is irrelevant brotha

It is... If heat is on your body and haki resists it's heat effects... No actual armor can do that

no one is ignoring anything, y'all are turning something straightforward into a semantics argument.

until the Haki page says that it can negate all abilities not devil fruit abilities, it only negates devil fruit abilities.

That would be NLF... Haki is shown to resist abilities both from devil fruits and non devil fruits, one which is on the page

 

[Godernet]

Prometheus is not a Devil Fruit ability. His sentience is.

his existence is an ability.

a fire or cloud that never goes out with a soul, sentience, powers, and a voice, despite being the soul fruit

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Yeah, Haki aside, what’s Zoro’s response to Sasuke creating 6 Shadow Clones and packing him out?

1. We disagree on Skill
2. We disagree that Zoro is blitzing

If Pre-Cog is a touchy issue, Sasuke removes it from the equation w/ Special Dust Bombs.

If Zoro gets tagged with Ama, even if he resists the heat, he’s not resisting the Cutting AP via Kagetsuchi.

 

[Godernet]

It is... If heat is on your body and haki resists it's heat effects... No actual armor can do that

fireproof suits exist

again Haki is armor + DF resistance.

people being able to withstand heat or lightning has nothing to do with the power null aspect of Haki and everything to do with the armor aspect.

If I'm wearing a suit that negates powers, in a verse where all powers come from the same source,

I say "this suit negates all powers!"

but it also shows it can take a little bit of heat that aren't from that power system.

the default isn't, "Oh this is proof this suit can also negate all powers that aren't of this power system."

the default is "this suit negates the powers of this verse, and has some resistance to heat."

That would be NLF... Haki is shown to resist abilities both from devil fruits and non devil fruits, one which is on the page

heat isn't a conventional hax so it's irrelevant to the discussion of if Haki can negate the hax of other verses.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yeah, Haki aside, what’s Zoro’s response to Sasuke creating 6 Shadow Clones and packing him out?

If Pre-Cog is a touchy issue, Sasuke removes it from the equation w/ Special Dust Bombs.

Observation haki... They don't need to use their eyes, they can just sense his presence

Zoro can range spam his aoe slashes with dura neg and also outpace him with his blitzes

 

[Kidkinsey]

His aoe wind slashes get absorbed with preta or negged by almighty push. Or u know just countered with one of sasukes many ranged moves

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

again Haki is armor + DF resistance.

Haki is not normal armor.. It acts similar to armor it's only physical with hardening

If I'm wearing a suit that negates powers, in a verse where all powers come from the same source,

I say "this suit negates all powers!"

but it also shows it can take a little bit of heat that aren't from that power system.

the default isn't, "Oh this is proof this suit can also negate all powers that aren't of this power system."

the default is "this suit negates the powers of this verse, and has some resistance to heat."

This is not true because the heat comes from sanjis body... Not outside of it

heat isn't a conventional hax so it's irrelevant to the discussion of if Haki can negate the hax of other verses.

It is whenever the heat from your body isn't affecting you but is affecting someone else

 

[Testarossa002]

Observation haki... They don't need to use their eyes, they can just sense his presence

Zoro can range spam his aoe slashes with dura neg and also outpace him with his blitzes

His durability neg has to first cut then burn the opponent from the wounds
He doesn't even have the AP to damage Sasuke with that attack

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Observation haki... They don't need to use their eyes, they can just sense his presence

The Dust Bombs are stated to block “Clairvoyant Abilities”, it doesn’t specify anything dealing with eyes.

Zoro can range spam his aoe slashes with dura neg and also outpace him with his blitzes

Those slashes won’t reach Sasuke, he can deflect them, as shown in a previous post.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

His aoe wind slashes get absorbed with preta or negged by almighty push. Or u know just countered with one of sasukes many ranged moves

he can spam 3 of them at the same time... And zoro has the higher lifting strength

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

he can spam 3 of them at the same time... And zoro has the higher lifting strength

Substitution Jutsu

 

[Kidkinsey]

Idk why spamming 3 at a time would be an issue lol. The preta absorb dome can stay up as long as he wants. Sasuke got fire styles inferno style etc long range attacks aren't an issue. Not to mention considering EMS madara can just pull his sword up and boom a mountain 100s of meters away Sasuke can do thr same

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

His durability neg has to first cut then burn the opponent from the wounds
He doesn't even have the AP to damage Sasuke with that attack

no, that's a different dura neg

This is the one

Limited Durability Negation (Through sensing the "Breath" of their desired target they're able to cut objects or people they otherwise couldn't through power alone. It's effectiveness begins to lessen against objects or opponent's with durability that far exceeds the limit of this ability)

He would be able to cut Sasuke as if he was like butter

Those slashes won’t reach Sasuke, he can deflect them, as shown in a previous post.

He's not deflecting 3 of them that both is dura negs and is launched with many times higher lifting strength

 

[Godernet]

Haki is not normal armor.. It acts similar to armor it's only physical with hardening

it being normal or not is irrelevant, it has hax resistance and unrelated heat resistances

considering even normal people have heat resistances in verse, Haki does not have to correlate at all with the power null application of Haki

This is not true because the heat comes from sanjis body... Not outside of it

It is whenever the heat from your body isn't affecting you but is affecting someone else

I don't think you understood my analogy because I was not talking about Sanji at all.

I was basically saying Haki's DF Null and its heat resistance don't automatically correlate to mean Haki negates powers in other verses that arent similar.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Substitution Jutsu

That's assuming there's a Close enough object he can switch to even tho it will be an aoe

Zoro can even create a tornado of them capable of engulfing kaido

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

it being normal or not is irrelevant, it has hax resistance and unrelated heat resistances

considering even normal people have heat resistances in verse, Haki does not have to correlate at all with the power null application of Haki

I don't think you understood my analogy because I was not talking about Sanji at all.

I was basically saying Haki's DF Null and its heat resistance don't automatically correlate to mean Haki negates powers in other verses that arent similar.

... Unless the ability is different somehow... Yes it is.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

He's not deflecting 3 of them that both is dura negs and is launched from many times higher lifting strength

He’s deflected far more than 3 incoming Ranged Attacks, the Ryou Aspect isn’t bypassing Chakra Cloaked Blade and the higher Lifting Strength is still below his AP, which is what repels.

 

[Testarossa002]

He would be able to cut Sasuke as if he was like butter

Scans for the ability?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He’s deflected far more than 3 incoming Ranged Attacks, the Ryou Aspect isn’t bypassing Chakra Cloaked Blade and the higher Lifting Strength is still below his AP, which is what repels.

The 3 ranged slashes would be coming from 3 directions... Every attack of Zoro can become a ranged slash which is how it will be spammed

zoro also used 6 slashes at the same time in that last scan

And with Dragon twister it will engulf him with many slashes at all times

 

[Kidkinsey]

Sasuke isn't getting trapped in a twister he can teleport out lol
All the other ranged moves sasukes has counters for. If it's a spam battle Sasuke will REALLY have the upper hand

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Scans for the ability?

■師匠の教えを胸に、鉄を斬る！『一刀流「居合」〝獅子歌歌〟』

アラバスタ編での、体が鉄の硬さを持った「全身刃物人間」Mr.1とのバトルでは、鉄を斬ることができないゾロの斬撃は全く効かず、苦戦を強いられます。敵の容赦ない攻撃に〝死の境地〟まで到達したその時、ゾロは万物の「呼吸」を読み取ることができるようになります。師匠の教えを思い出し、Mr.1の鉄の「呼吸」を読み、相手を斬る時の力、タイミング、急所などを把握すると、あれほど響かなかったゾロの刃は、相手を斬り抜いたのです。その速さたるや、まさに神速。斬る瞬間は目にも止まらず、納刀する頃には敵は膝をついて崩れ落ち…。自身に試練を与えてくれたMr.1に対し感謝を述べるところも、ゾロの成長が伺えます（『ONE PIECE』21巻195話）。
———————————
Cutting Iron with Master's Teachings in Mind! Itto-ryu "Iai" "Shishi-Uta-Uta" (The Lion's Song)

In the Alabasta Arc, Zoro's slashes, which cannot cut through steel, have no effect on Mr. 1, a "full-body blade man" whose body has the hardness of iron, and he is forced into a difficult battle. When he is on the verge of death from the relentless attacks of his enemies, Zoro becomes able to read the "breath" of all things. Remembering his master's teachings, Zoro read Mr. 1's iron "breath" and grasped the power, timing, and vital points when cutting his opponent, and his blade, which had never sounded that fast before, cut right through his opponent. His speed was truly divine. The moment he slashed, it was almost invisible, and by the time he delivered the blade, the enemy fell to his knees and crumpled to the ground. Zoro's growth can be seen in the way he thanks Mr. 1 for putting him through the ordeal ("ONE PIECE" vol. 21, no. 195).

Zoro wasn't able to do any damage to Daz bones at all, and then could easily one shot him with goken's dura neg, Zoro now can use that with all of his attacks

Scans annoying af to set up

 

[KingTempest]

Before I even comment on the match since I feel like this ends up being a mess of a topic between every Naruto vs OP match on Wiki that involves hax.

Haki being verse equalized to counter things like Chakra-Based GJ or Rinnegan BFR because of their interactions with Devil Fruits does not work at all.

For one, on the Haki Page, all that is accepted is that Haki can nullify or negate the abilities of Devil Fruits via four statements of that being proven to be the case.

given that this is portrayed by the story as a universal rule for how strong Haki can specifically interact this way with all Devil Fruits(although the exact effect Haki has on an individual Devil Fruit may vary) this effect should be treated as a weakness of Devil Fruits rather than a power that Haki can translate into negating the effects of any power in any verse just because a Devil Fruit exists with a name similar to said power.

Luckily that's where SBA helps out One Piece a bit since not many power systems exist that are 1 to 1 with how Haki and Devil Fruits interact with each other.

Verse Equalization states that:

"Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

"However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization."

"Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."

So for two verses' abilities to be equalized, they have to be similar in conception, not possess any weaknesses, caveats, or limitations that would contradict them being similar, and mechanically similar.

Devil Fruits are abilities that come from the alteration of genetics via supernatural fruits with a stated weakness to powerful Buso Haki.

Chakra-based abilities are energy-based via transmuted life force incorporating the esoteric aspects of the mind, body, and soul with no such weakness.

they aren't comparable conceptually, mechanically, or how the story presents their weaknesses.

Haki and Chakra have far more in common than Chakra and Devil Fruits and even then its small similarities (spiritual energies incorporating aspects of life force.)

but yeah until it's accepted in a CRT that Haki negates all abilities rather than just DF abilities, we go off of what is currently accepted.

So it's not being used to negate the abilities of a power system that isn't already inherently similar to DFs.

I'll comment on the match later.

It is accepted that Haki negates all abilities rather than just DF abilities. We've had several threads on it and it's accepted

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Sasuke isn't getting trapped in a twister he can teleport out lol

how far can he teleport..?

 

[Godernet]

It is accepted that Haki negates all abilities rather than just DF abilities. We've had several threads on it and it's accepted

That’s not what’s reflected on the page,

I might have to make a thread on that in the future if that’s the case.

But for now can you link the thread/threads

 

[Godernet]

how far can he teleport..?

Anywhere he can see to swap himself with something or interdimensionally is he wants

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Anywhere he can see to swap himself with something or interdimensionally is he wants

Any showings or proof he can swap from really far away?

Also isn't interdimensionally something he first has to create a portal of and physically move through?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sasuke FRA (this is a serious vote)

 

[Kachon123]

Sasuke FRA (this is a serious vote)

What reasons? Because the Hax one got debunked. Right now we're still going over what they both bring to the table and no one has really brought up anything new from either side yet for why one wins since we've moved on from that topic

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Does Sasuke have infinite chakra and can always teleport or nah?

Because I've seen him get completely exusted via just using it a few times in boruto lol

Traveling between dimensions consumes a great portion of his Chakra reserves.

Ohh gg... Zoro is easily outlasting him them and one shooting whenever Sasuke gets tired from having to use so much chakra against all of Zoro's attacks to survive.. Someone like pre timeskip luffy was able to easily deal with targets like that against blueno

 

[Godernet]

What reasons? Because the Hax one got debunked. Right now we're still going over what they both bring to the table and no one has really brought up anything new from either side yet for why one wins since we've moved on from that topic

It hasn’t been “debunked” relax

Still waiting on the CRT link cause it’s not on the Haki Page.

Any showings or proof he can swap from really far away?

Not ones with tangible ranges

He usually teleports in from offscreen or while already in close quarters

Also isn't interdimensionally something he first has to create a portal of and physically move through?

in the Jigen fight he just straight up vanishes in a puff of black smoke when he teleports back to earth iirc

 

[Nierre]

Sasuke's portal creation takes alot of chakra from him, correct.

But the switching jutsu AFAIK doesn't take alot.

 

[SlendVeny]

Also, also, can't Nami grab Zeus, a literal cloud created by the same DF, with no haki at all?

Nami is just like that.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Not ones with tangible ranges

He usually teleports in from offscreen or while already in close quarters

But can't spam it also it seems

 

[SlendVeny]

Does Sasuke have infinite chakra and can always teleport or nah?

Because I've seen him get completely exusted via just using it a few times in boruto lol

The "oh man he's out of chakra" stuff is usually after he's been jumping around through portals for a while before fighting.

 

[SlendVeny]

But can't spam it also it seems

He's never been in a situation where he needs to.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Zoro is not spamming Shishi Sonson-style air slashes.

you talking about goken..? Or the speed?

Because even pre timeskip zoro could use his goken with ranged slashes, what you mean..?

 

[Kachon123]

Zoro does that all the time. He did it against the steel-shelled Fishman on Fishman Island, he did it against Pica, he did it against the Yeti Cool brothers, he did it against Kaidou, he did it against King, and he likely did it to cut the Warm Eddy in Egghead Island.