The sword of the strawhat vs the heavenly sword

[SatellaTheWoE]

Roronao Zoro (THE ONE PIECE IS REAL)
vs
Reid, the og Sword Saint
Reid is tier 7B while Zoro is tier high 7A
speed equalized
SBA
Reid: @VortechsTG @SatellaTheWoE @Zabazab @Arkenis
Man who entered the wrong verse (again): @LordGinSama @Fezzih_007 @Eminiteable
Reinhard intervenes:

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

If this matchup seems too one sided i am gonna change zoros key to 7A

 

[ZKillerz]

I think you should equalize stats

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think you should equalize stats

You cant equalize stats...

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Instinctive Action (Superior to Wilhelm, who is superior to Julius who can dodge invisible attacks with instincts. Fights on the level of Garfiel are immediate, with no delay between decision making and action[12], with the slightest delay being exploited by their opponent[12])

Hmm? 1. Scaling don't work like that 2. That's not Instinctive Action via reading everything on the justification

Perception Manipulation (More skilled than Wilhelm who can slow down his perception of time[19], intensifying his focus, making sound, color, and everything other than his opponent fade from the world, giving himself time to avoid attacks)

Is there something I'm missing with the more skilled justifications? Just because you are more skilled doesn't mean you'll be able to get their specific skills

Resistance to Precognition (Despite Elsa being able to see his attack coming, Garfiel was able to counteract it[14] mid-battle, and Reid is more skilled than him)

Ain't this Analytical prediction? Also countering it doesn't mean you'll get a resistance to it if I remember correctly

Yee basically the abilities section does not make sense to me at all that's all I'll say for now

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Hmm? 1. Scaling don't work like that 2. That's not Instinctive Action via reading everything on the justification

Is there something I'm missing with the more skilled justifications? Just because you are more skilled doesn't mean you'll be able to get their specific skills

Ain't this Analytical prediction? Also countering it doesn't mean you'll get a resistance to it if I remember correctly

Yee basically the abilities section does not make sense to me at all that's all I'll say for now

Since celestial already explained this before i am just going to quote him

Re Zero basically has Sword Saints as being the be all end all that no level of training or talent can reach, as long as it's connected to battle they know all the flaws of everyone's fighting style. So even though Theresia doesn't use a axe for example, an axe wielder could never reach her skill.
Once you hit certain levels the same sort of skill feats happen over and over.
If it was just like i am more skilled than this guy, maybe it wouldn't be as legit, but you get stuff like Garfiel slowing down his perception, then Wilhelm also showcases it. Elsa countering danmaku with skill, and then Wilhelm doing the same thing to invisible attacks.
It's repeatedly in your face about it. Elsa blocks an attack she can't see coming, Theresia does it, Garfiel does it, it goes on and on.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

For the rest you did have to make CRTs

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@MonkeyOfLife No delay between thinking about attacking and attacking isn't IA? Also it's blatantly stated they attack on pure instinct

His claws caught Kurgan while he used his blessing to repel his enormous frame from below his feet. Transformed into a wartiger, Garfiel slammed into the war god, and they fell together into the waterway behind Kurgan.

There was a massive splash, and the water turned red from their blood as they continued pummeling each other beneath the surface.

Despite the water resistance and suddenly finding themselves submerged in darkness, they approached on pure instinct and pummeled, pummeled, pummeled each other.

A giant iron fist crushed internal organs and forced the air out of already burning lungs. The pain was stronger, the suffering was worse, but the underwater battle that was only getting more brutal continued.-Volume 20, Chapter 3

His strength surged as a fire roared to life in his belly.

Elsa twisted her body to dodge a swing of his bestial claws, but she was too slow. Garfiel snagged her black braid and slammed her into a wall before proceeding to race down the corridor with her.

“Ooooaaaaahhh!!!”

Roaring, Garfiel charged straight into the mansion, with Elsa still pinned against the wall. Dust and debris flew from the wall as it broke, leaving her unable to resist the heavy impacts. All he had to do now was snap her neck, cave in her skull, and grind her against the wall until she was reduced to paste. Then he’d regroup with his friends and—

“Letting your mind wander in the middle of our dance? What a naughty boy.”

Faster than his mind could think, he miraculously flinched away out of sheer instinct.-Volume 15, Chapter 1

As for Perception Manipulation mentioned above, Garfiel does the same exact thing, in Re Zero with martial artist, they always talk about skill. This person is not as skilled as that one, characters doing feats via skill like Cecilius hiding his aura, then also multiple instances of characters doing the same feat such as dealing with invisible stuff, repeated feats of dodging stuff they can't see etc etc.

If you are more skilled, you can do the same thing.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Also i realize this seems to be coming up repeatedly, so i will create a whole blog title "Skill".

All i have to do is go volume by volume and search skill, and i think it will be a long blog, as it's literally the reason for anything any martial artist/swordsman does.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

@MonkeyOfLife No delay between thinking about attacking and attacking isn't IA? Also it's blatantly stated they attack on pure instinct

Attacking/doing stuff with the help of instinct and attacking/doing stuff only from instinct is different

Most of that seems to be from just the help of instinct

Faster than his mind could think, he miraculously flinched away out of sheer instinct.

tho this could possibly be limited Instinctive Action? As he randomly did it in one instance?

But idk I still kinda view it to be this Actions done through a regular human's realistic instincts don't count, their feats need to be surreal

like kinda here luffy used pure instinct to attack the real Mr. 3 but that's not Instinctive Action as it's from the help of it, not on it's own from just instinct

As for Perception Manipulation mentioned above, Garfiel does the same exact thing, in Re Zero with martial artist, they always talk about skill. This person is not as skilled as that one, characters doing feats via skill like Cecilius hiding his aura, then also multiple instances of characters doing the same feat such as dealing with invisible stuff, repeated feats of dodging stuff they can't see etc etc.

If you are more skilled, you can do the same thing.

But why tho? Is there some sort of statement that supports that?

You can't just assume that the person who's more skilled will randomly have learnt that skill or even use that skill

 

[Fezzih_007]

Following

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Attacking/doing stuff with the help of instinct and attacking/doing stuff only from instinct is different

Seems like semantics to me, Garfiel and Kurgan attacked each other purely on instincts alone

Also the Instinctive Action only says "Instinctive Action is the ability to act without the need for conscious thought.", you are arguing for something that's not on the page, like i think it's a hard sell to me to argue that having immediate actions where there isn't any delay between thoughts and actions, and reacting faster than you can think isn't IA, if you think those sorts of things shouldn't count, make a CRT to change what the ability is currently defined as.

But why tho? Is there some sort of statement that supports that?

There are literally like 5 different feats of IA for example. Here is another, Julius can react without conscious thought, literally called instinctive reaction

With a pleasant smile, Cecils calmly drew one of the swords at his hip. Then he took a single, nonchalant step toward Julius and vanished.
An instant later, faster than lightning, he delivered a blow that transcended all perception.
“Hrrgh!” Julius only just managed to block this first strike with the upraised hilt of his saber. He hadn’t deflected it consciously; it was an instinctive reaction, one born of the heightened reflexes granted to him by his greater spirits. Julius had been forced to use his trump card at the very first exchange.
“My! You managed to block that? You kingdom warriors are more capable than I thought.”-Ex Novel 4, Diplomacy by Bloodshed

I am not going to go through the volumes just to show Petelgeuse harming Julius. I showed this in previous CRTS, but anyway lets say Petelguese harms Julius right, despite this ability, Wilhelm then shows up and dodges Petelguese attacks without getting hurt at all, Is Julius more skilled than Wilhelm? Obviously no, and Wilhelm in fact is stated to be inhuman in comparison to Julius, do you truly think both characters who are just as strong and fast as each other, with the other being more skilled, and doing a feat the other couldn't, shouldn't have the same ability?

Julius mid-combat makes his attacks become more sure and accurate due to his skill, but Wilhelm who is stated to be more skilled, can't do the same? That logic doesn't make sense to me. If characters are stated to be doing something via skill, why wouldn't the more skilled person be able to replicate it, especially when it's been shown over and over again that they can.

It's not even like this is a verse where everyone is using different power systems, those exist, for people who use superpowers, Wilhelm doesn't have a blessing, authority, nor can he use magic, he is just a swordsman, all martial artist unconsciously use mana, and aim for the same peak of martial strength that is the sword saint.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Seems like semantics to me, Garfiel and Kurgan attacked each other purely on instincts alone

Also the Instinctive Action only says "Instinctive Action is the ability to act without the need for conscious thought.", you are arguing for something that's not on the page, like i think it's a hard sell to me to argue that having immediate actions where there isn't any delay between thoughts and actions, and reacting faster than you can think isn't IA, if you think those sorts of things shouldn't count, make a CRT to change what the ability is currently defined as.

not going to deal with this...

If it's not Instinctive Action it will otherwise turn to Enhanced Senses

With a pleasant smile, Cecils calmly drew one of the swords at his hip. Then he took a single, nonchalant step toward Julius and vanished.
An instant later, faster than lightning, he delivered a blow that transcended all perception.
“Hrrgh!” Julius only just managed to block this first strike with the upraised hilt of his saber. He hadn’t deflected it consciously; it was an instinctive reaction, one born of the heightened reflexes granted to him by his greater spirits. Julius had been forced to use his trump card at the very first exchange.
“My! You managed to block that? You kingdom warriors are more capable than I thought.”-Ex Novel 4, Diplomacy by Bloodshed

Maybe this one is but at the same time... Yee I'm currently just not in the mood to debate about this

I am not going to go through the volumes just to show Petelgeuse harming Julius. I showed this in previous CRTS, but anyway lets say Petelguese harms Julius right, despite this ability, Wilhelm then shows up and dodges Petelguese attacks without getting hurt at all, Is Julius more skilled than Wilhelm? Obviously no, and Wilhelm in fact is stated to be inhuman in comparison to Julius, do you truly think both characters who are just as strong and fast as each other, with the other being more skilled, and doing a feat the other couldn't, shouldn't have the same ability?

Bro what? Don't think I understand the question

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It's enhanced senses that Garfiel and Kurgan can immediately attack with no delay between thought and action? There is a difference between that, and this feat from Rem

Rem: “────”


No doubt about it, the stink was coming from the other side of this door. Even if it was a strictly sealed door, it couldn’t prevent the escape of the intense smell.


The moment Rem understood that, the loudest alarm bell sounded in her brain. Rem feels something that was like a direct hit to her skull, and her instincts were telling her to leave this place immediately. Rem’s senses that perceived the stink also surrendered in agreement with her instinct’s calls. You shouldn’t be here. You can’t be here. That’s what her senses and her instincts clearly answered together.-Oni Sisters of the hidden Village, Chapter 3

This is enhanced senses via instincts.

As for my question. Here is Julius getting more accurate in combat via skill

“I’m starting to suspect you and I aren’t looking at the same world here!!”

The two exchanged banter as they leaped away from the evil hands rushing upon them the next moment. Subaru’s feet clumsily slipped, whereas Julius split the wave of shadow with his sword, elegantly slipping through the gap to advance upon the madman once more.

“Amazing.”

Rising up after falling on his backside, Subaru spontaneously voiced his admiration at the sight of Julius in battle. Midbattle, Julius had grown acclimated to the unnatural physical sensations with frightening speed, raising the accuracy and sureness of his sword to new heights.

It was not a feat that knack alone could achieve.

This was the experience he had gained through the pain of ferocious training, cruelly using his body to its utmost limits.

This was the end result of clashing with swords and lives in the midst of battle, honing his own skill and conviction to a fine edge.-Volume 9, Chapter 4

Here Wilhelm is said to be inhuman when compared to Julius

As Subaru sank into thought, pondering “out loud,” Wilhelm interjected with an air of confidence. His words aroused hope throughout the expeditionary force, making Wilhelm give a firm telepathic nod.

“Concerning the archbishop’s invisible arms, I thought of a simple way to expose them to the naked eye. First, we would scatter a large amount of dust, or possibly dirt, around the Archbishop of the Seven Deadly Sins.”

“Ah, I don’t think we can rely on that, meow.”

Though Ferris casually inserted himself into his explanation midway, Wilhelm paid no heed and explained to the very end. Subaru had already seen his plan in action once before: a Wilhelm-style dirt screen to hold Petelgeuse’s Authority in check. Knowing the results from the last go-around, Subaru knew that Wilhelm’s proposal could work.

The problem was that it was such a superhuman feat, only Wilhelm could pull it off. Indeed, all the expeditionary force members found the suggestion too challenging, with even Julius and Ricardo communicating telepathically that the feat was beyond them.

“I believe anyone can do it with enough practice, but…”

“Yes, yes. But we don’t have fifty years to spend practicing. Aside from proving that Old Man Wil is inhuman, what’ll we do?”-Volume 9, Chapter 1

Do you think Wilhelm can't do what Julius did? Wilhelm who has been on the battle field from he was 15 years old, now in his 60's, who spent every moment he could, from day to night, honing his skills with the sword.

It's a simple question.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's enhanced senses that Garfiel and Kurgan can immediately attack with no delay between thought and action? There is a difference between that, and this feat from Rem



This is enhanced senses via instincts.

As for my question. Here is Julius getting more accurate in combat via skill



Here Wilhelm is said to be inhuman when compared to Julius



Do you think Wilhelm can't do what Julius did? Wilhelm who has been on the battle field from he was 15 years old, now in his 60's, who spent every moment he could, from day to night, honing his skills with the sword.

It's a simple question.

So the question is you don’t think wilhelm can do the thing Julius did which is to grow in skill in combat?

If it is that then no, not without proof or support that he does the same…

having better skills does not prove that…

and if it does you need proof that having more skill than someone else in that verse means you can do similar skills to people who are less skilled (as it literally doesn’t work that way normally)

 

[Zabazab]

These are not unique abilities to the characters, but rather a result of continuous honing of skill and talent in swordsmanship.

I don't really see the problem with more skilled swordsmen being capable of what lesser skilled swordsmen can do via their swordsmanship skill.

If a blog of some sort is needed in order to prove this relationship then ig one can be made.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

These aren't isolated, we aren't just pulling stuff from different places. If it was just that only Julius or Wilhelm have been shown to do a certain feat, and even the supposedly more skilled people have never done it, then i would 100% agree it shouldn't scale, but we have so many instances of people doing the exact same feat, to then say 1 particular person, who is stated to be as or even more skilled than the other 4 who showed that feat, can't do it, i think doesn't make sense.

But anyway this is derailing, i will work on a blog, this match should proceed ignoring all this back and forth about skill for now.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

but we have so many instances of people doing the exact same feat, to then say 1 particular person, who is stated to be as or even more skilled than the other 4 who showed that feat, can't do it, i think doesn't make sense.

Well it literally does make sense as that’s how it works, doesn’t matter how many less skilled people can do it

that’s like giving vista or shanks (both stated to have one of the best swordsmanship in the world via being able to compete with Mihawk) breath of all things because Zoro at the time with less skills did it

But sure

But anyway this is derailing, i will work on a blog, this match should proceed ignoring all this back and forth about skill for now.

 

[Eminiteable]

that’s like giving vista or shanks (both stated to have one of the best swordsmanship in the world via being able to compete with Mihawk) breath of all things because Zoro at the time with less skills did it

They should

 

[Zabazab]

Please add a distance otherwise Zoro gets vapourized from 4km away. Also I believe this is a skill and hax stomp in Reid's favour anyways. Making Zoro 7-A will not help.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Please add a distance otherwise Zoro gets vapourized from 4km away. Also I believe this is a skill and hax stomp in Reid's favour anyways. Making Zoro 7-A will not help.

Dodging is a thing.
And Reid don't even start with attacking from the distance anyway.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

They should

I know especially via the statement of Zoro's sensei

 

[Zabazab]

Dodging is a thing.
And Reid don't even start with attacking from the distance anyway.

He is not gonna know it's coming when it's Four Thousand Metres away

And you genuinely cannot prove that due to the fact that Reid has never fought at a distance before. Reid also takes opponents stronger than him completely seriously without holding back, i.e Reinhard.

Reid can both clearly see Zoro due to his eyesight being >> Shaula's, and easily attack him from said distance, he also will be able to tell that Zoro is stronger than him, and so he will cut loose.

The only character who is comparable is Reinhard, and he absolutely does just attack from kms away.

Reid just one-shots Zoro with spatial-dimensional-temporal-conceptual slash from his chopsticks.

 

[Fezzih_007]

He is not gonna know it's coming when it's Four Thousand Metres away

Enhanced Senses (Can consistently react to attacks not in his line of sight)

And speed equal, he can still see if Reid trows a attack at him from a distance.

And you genuinely cannot prove that due to the fact that Reid has never fought at a distance before.

What?

Reid also takes opponents stronger than him completely seriously without holding back, i.e Reinhard.

They both are even in strenght? 7-B here, unless the calcs say something differents. And also, no one deny that he treats people more stronger than him serious, or the he would be fooling around in this match,
Is that he would not start with a attack from a distance.

Reid can both clearly see Zoro due to his eyesight being >> Shaula's,

His eyesights are better than Shaula?

The only character who is comparable is Reinhard, and he absolutely does just attack from kms away.

He doenst, but i not gonna have this discussion again.

Reid just one-shots Zoro with spatial-dimensional-temporal-conceptual slash from his chopsticks.

Sure.

 

[Zabazab]

Enhanced Senses (Can consistently react to attacks not in his line of sight)

And speed equal, he can still see if Reid trows a attack at him from a distance.

Reid will be able to keep attacking at a distance while Zoro will only be able to dodge. Reid's vastly superior skill will let him hit Zoro quickly, while Zoro cannot retaliate at such a distance.

They both are even in strenght? 7-B here, unless the calcs say something differents. And also, no one deny that he treats people more stronger than him serious, or the he would be fooling around in this match,
Is that he would not start with a attack from a distance.

Zoro is roughly twice as strong.

Why wouldn't he? Nothing in his character suggests he wouldn't. He is 4km away and can attack from such a distance, so he will, otherwise there's no point in his range rating. Please provide evidence that he would not.

His eyesights are better than Shaula?

Top 5 eyesight in Re:Zero is Reinhard > Reid > Theresia > Shaula > Rai

He doenst, but i not gonna have this discussion again.

Reinhard kills Miles who was flying at cloud height.

Sure

Are you being sarcastic? A single hit will kill Zoro since Reid negs durability.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Are you being sarcastic? A single hit will kill Zoro since Reid negs durability.

No i agree, this is a stomp.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I kinda use Sure to everthing.

 

[Zabazab]

Sorry for taking it that way then, just "Sure." comes across as sarcastic or passive-aggressive in english.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Would speed unequalized help?

 

[Fezzih_007]

If you use time Skip Zoro, this would be fair actually.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

If you use time Skip Zoro, this would be fair actually.

Would it? The AP difference seemed too big but alr i will use him then

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Updated

 

[Fezzih_007]

Now Zoro can one shot like Reid, that's cool now.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Now Zoro can one shot like Reid, that's cool now.

Now both 1 shot each other yay!

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Bro people gotta stop putting Zoro against these ridiculous hax skill dudes .

Like Zoro is incredibly skilled (in a more realistic form and idea of skill weirdly enough), but he isn't out here cutting concepts and space time via skill or some shit.

 

[Zabazab]

It is indeed factual that Reid's skill is beyond most verses, cutting a black hole with a chopstick just because he thinks he can is a bit silly. Due to the skill chain he's probably a top 5, maybe top 3 most skilled swordsmen on the wiki.

Anyway my opinion that Reid hax/skill stomps has not changed.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Due to the skill chain he's probably a top 5, maybe top 3 most skilled swordsmen on the wiki.

I think Top 8-10 is the maximun. because there's a lot of other guys that just insane with the sword.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think Too 5 is the maximun. because there's a lot of other guys that just insane with the sword.

Ikki

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ikki

Yeah, this that bad boy is crazy.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Now Zoro can one shot like Reid, that's cool now.

The Last key.. zoro also could one shot and blitz tho only close range

Resistance to Durability Negation (The Dragon Sword can block Regulus's attacks[22], despite their innate nature of going through anything regardless of their toughness)

This is only on his sword right?