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Dragon Quest Revival Discussion Thread

I mean, if Mort’s expanding a pocket dimension enough to consume two universes, wouldn’t that just be 2-C rather than Low 2-C?


What stronger evidence would there need to be? It seems pretty straight up.

How come?

Low 1-C…? 🤔

Ok

So, do you agree with abstract or naw?

Low Godly res??? Wouldn’t he just get Regen anyway due to it co-existing with his resurrection?

So, would Estark have acasuality or no?

I would say reactive evo (via gaining new abilities as he evolves), body control (he can autotomize his limbs and head), and self-bio manip (can change his skin color, grow limbs, strengthen limbs), and at least mid Regen (via regrowth of head).
 
Winter said:
I mean, if Mort’s expanding a pocket dimension enough to consume two universes, wouldn’t that just be 2-C rather than Low 2-C?
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Yeah but he could be doing one first than the other
Winter said:
What stronger evidence would there need to be? It seems pretty straight up.
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I dunno, "transcend dimensions" shit is pretty meaningless, you'd really just need a real immeasurable feat.
Winter said:
How come?
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How come to what
Winter said:
Low 1-C…? 🤔
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I think if something encompasses a universe and that universe is portrayed as an infinitesimal part of it it can be Low 1-C, that said i uh, don't know if that's viable here, even disregarding that I don't agree with that assumption for at least DQ11 Ygg.
Winter said:
So, do you agree with abstract or naw?
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I think there's an argument but personally not, I think they can just be two forces that balance each other out without necessarily being fundamental concepts of the universe.
Winter said:
Low Godly res??? Wouldn’t he just get Regen anyway due to it co-existing with his resurrection?
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It seems to only activate when they die, no?
Winter said:
So, would Estark have acasuality or no?
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I don't think the Estark "beyond dimensions" stuff is really worth much on its own so imo no.
Winter said:
I would say reactive evo (via gaining new abilities as he evolves), body control (he can autotomize his limbs and head), and self-bio manip (can change his skin color, grow limbs, strengthen limbs), and at least mid Regen (via regrowth of head).
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aight
 
Mormatar's feat can only be lowballed to Low 2-C at worst if the assumption is he eats the multiverse overtime. Though I was told offsite that it literally says, "Immediate threat".

End of Time was clearly effecting more than one timeline; given before facing him, you fight reincarnations of all End Game bosses of the first 10 Dragon Quest games; 1, 2, and 3 came from the same timeline as XI sure as all three are future periods. But 4, 5, and 6 have a timeline separate. 9 has its own timeline, and forgot 7, and 8's exact relationship with other timelines and 10 I'm not sure either but heard it has some connections to 9. Though, "All Time and Space" is literally mentioned combined with their being more than one timeline. There is such a thing as "Past Futures" which involves futures of timelines that existed in the past; usually related to their existing more than one temporal dimension. Also, the first quote says "Shatter Time and Space itself" nothing to do with a single timeline. And the fact that more than one timeline was involved clearly proves it's multiversal in scale.

Another thing FanofRPGs brought up offsite is that Estark "Transcending space and time" refers to the destruction of everything.

There was also something about the origin story of World of Light and World of Darkness as being once one, but later separated an were primordial realms containing many timelines.

Also, the Void was stated to be part of Yggdrasil and Calasmos, "Who is the End of Time's equal counterpart" was going to "Turn everything into the Void".

Also, Dragon Quest Builders is considered canon according to some offsite sources. So the creation of everything would apply.
 
Armorchompy said:
Yeah but he could be doing one first than the other

I dunno, "transcend dimensions" shit is pretty meaningless, you'd really just need a real immeasurable feat.

How come to what

I think if something encompasses a universe and that universe is portrayed as an infinitesimal part of it it can be Low 1-C, that said i uh, don't know if that's viable here, even disregarding that I don't agree with that assumption for at least DQ11 Ygg.

I think there's an argument but personally not, I think they can just be two forces that balance each other out without necessarily being fundamental concepts of the universe.

It seems to only activate when they die, no?

I don't think the Estark "beyond dimensions" stuff is really worth much on its own so imo no.

aight
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It honestly depends. He definitely can consume more than one, given the statement says he was going to consume worlds, plural. His dimension is also directly in-between both worlds anyway, so he definitely has access to both given he sends his dread fiends across both.

It’s not just “transcend dimensions” but also directly says “transcends space and time”, “exists without being affected by space and time”, etc. It seems like a pretty basic immeasurable statement, if not, a likely would suit it. Iirc there are characters on the wiki who are immeasurable off of statements.

How come you disagree with WoL containing half of cosmology.

Yea, I don’t think the Void is portrayed that way. It’s just a random place that people go to be reincarnated or smth before they go back to Yggdrasil.

Fair enough.

The resurrection page legitimately says it overlaps with regeneration at times. I’m arguing they’d have both. It doesn’t matter when it activates, so I don’t know what you’re arguing here. It’s blatantly regen.

Why are the statements not enough?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Mormatar's feat can only be lowballed to Low 2-C at worst if the assumption is he eats the multiverse overtime. Though I was told offsite that it literally says, "Immediate threat".

End of Time was clearly effecting more than one timeline; given before facing him, you fight reincarnations of all End Game bosses of the first 10 Dragon Quest games; 1, 2, and 3 came from the same timeline as XI sure as all three are future periods. But 4, 5, and 6 have a timeline separate. 9 has its own timeline, and forgot 7, and 8's exact relationship with other timelines and 10 I'm not sure either but heard it has some connections to 9. Though, "All Time and Space" is literally mentioned combined with their being more than one timeline. There is such a thing as "Past Futures" which involves futures of timelines that existed in the past; usually related to their existing more than one temporal dimension. Also, the first quote says "Shatter Time and Space itself" nothing to do with a single timeline. And the fact that more than one timeline was involved clearly proves it's multiversal in scale.

Another thing FanofRPGs brought up offsite is that Estark "Transcending space and time" refers to the destruction of everything.

There was also something about the origin story of World of Light and World of Darkness as being once one, but later separated an were primordial realms containing many timelines.

Also, the Void was stated to be part of Yggdrasil and Calasmos, "Who is the End of Time's equal counterpart" was going to "Turn everything into the Void".

Also, Dragon Quest Builders is considered canon according to some offsite sources. So the creation of everything would apply.
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I looked at the feat and it never says anything about immediate threat, it’s just “he plans to consume other worlds.” I could definitely see it as 2-C though, ultimately depends on how you see the statement.

The bosses aren’t necessarily relevant to this point when considering his range. The statement of shattering space and time isn’t really quantifiable. It’s a very broad statement that gives no detail about the range and effect of the move. It at least grants him space and time manipulation but anything beyond that requires more evidence.

That… doesn’t make sense. The only statement that seems to be similar to what you say that is the one that says “he brings darkness from beyond space and time,” which also doesn’t imply much.

Nothing i’m aware of supports it being primordial. The book says “long ago” which is both a broad statement and unquantifiable.

Not necessarily stated to be apart of Yggdrasil, people just go there before going back to the tree fsr. It seems to be the other way around for Calasmos, being apart of The Void, rather than the latter being apart of him.

Builders is canon as an alternate universe and doesn’t contradict anything. Not sure what you mean by that.
 
Winter said:
It honestly depends. He definitely can consume more than one, given the statement says he was going to consume worlds, plural. His dimension is also directly in-between both worlds anyway, so he definitely has access to both given he sends his dread fiends across both.
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I think possibly 2-C is fair, but I would at least acknowledge the possibility that he can't absorb both at once.
Winter said:
It’s not just “transcend dimensions” but also directly says “transcends space and time”, “exists without being affected by space and time”, etc. It seems like a pretty basic immeasurable statement, if not, a likely would suit it. Iirc there are characters on the wiki who are immeasurable off of statements.
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I mean yeah, but those statements typically need to be pretty specific.

If you wanna really get into it, Immeasurable isn't just a speed rating, it's basically time travel on its own. Just from the one I played, if he was Immeasurable, DQV's protagonist could easily just go back in time and save his father, or at least his mother. I imagine to give Immeasurable to the entire verse causes a million of plot holes. I'm not saying that can't be overruled, ultimately fiction isn't super consistent about this, but I'd require a bit more personally.
Winter said:
How come you disagree with WoL containing half of cosmology.
Click to expand...
I've detailed that in my first post on the topic but the scans posted on the blog on the topic are, essentially, "WoL and WoD once used to be one and the same" and some guy referring to a realm and that being interpreted as the whole multiverse. I don't think either really implies that.
Winter said:
The resurrection page legitimately says it overlaps with regeneration at times. I’m arguing they’d have both. It doesn’t matter when it activates, so I don’t know what you’re arguing here. It’s blatantly regen.
Click to expand...
Regen is active at all time, res only when you die, it's a pretty obvious difference.
Winter said:
Why are the statements not enough?
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Same reasons for the Immeasurable stuff, I just don't think it's reliable to take one arguably contradicted statement as holy gospel.

More straight-forwardly though, the scan is just sending me to a Discord link that doesn't work, and I'd at least like to see it to get the full picture.
 
Armorchompy said:
More straight-forwardly though, the scan is just sending me to a Discord link that doesn't work, and I'd at least like to see it to get the full picture.
Click to expand...
I’ll respond to everything else later. I’ll send the scans here:



I’m not sure what Neo’s scans say, but I presume he talked about these ones
 
Armorchompy said:
I think possibly 2-C is fair, but I would at least acknowledge the possibility that he can't absorb both at once.

I mean yeah, but those statements typically need to be pretty specific.

If you wanna really get into it, Immeasurable isn't just a speed rating, it's basically time travel on its own. Just from the one I played, if he was Immeasurable, DQV's protagonist could easily just go back in time and save his father, or at least his mother. I imagine to give Immeasurable to the entire verse causes a million of plot holes. I'm not saying that can't be overruled, ultimately fiction isn't super consistent about this, but I'd require a bit more personally.

I've detailed that in my first post on the topic but the scans posted on the blog on the topic are, essentially, "WoL and WoD once used to be one and the same" and some guy referring to a realm and that being interpreted as the whole multiverse. I don't think either really implies that.

Regen is active at all time, res only when you die, it's a pretty obvious difference.

Same reasons for the Immeasurable stuff, I just don't think it's reliable to take one arguably contradicted statement as holy gospel.

More straight-forwardly though, the scan is just sending me to a Discord link that doesn't work, and I'd at least like to see it to get the full picture.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I didn’t reply sooner, I forgor


Yea. He’s still be 2-C though via scaling to Rhapthorne (who actually affected two universes at once)

The statements are pretty specific, I sent it in a previous reply

That’s saying he doesn’t have it because he hasn’t shown the speed’s full potential. If anything, character induced stupidity pretty much sums this up. Not to mention, there’s no reason for him to travel this fast, given this is speed, not the ability itself.

I mean, the blog doesn’t even show the countless worlds statement. Ramia states that she’s a traveler between realms and she’s travelled through countless worlds. In the same game, Velasco is feeding off the energy of other worlds with darkness and was using this to purge the entire realm, which includes the one in DQ Heroes, as well as the worlds of DQ 4, 5, 6, and 8 (the former 3 being in the same world across different points in time). There’s a realm/multiverse which contains various universes that may have countless worlds (given Ramia mentions she travels in-between realms, not worlds). Chances are there is a multiverse of some sort, whether it’s the world of light or not, there are multiple realms in the verse with countless worlds in them.

Regen can also be activated rather than passive, which in this case, when they lose their body. Nothing really shows that Orgodemir dies (given he comes back in the story not too far later). Calasmos just reincarnates, which in that case, he did die.


Your only point for it being contradicted is “the hero didn’t go back in time” which is not really a counter to the statement itself, it’s just saying he didn’t use immeasurable speed at one point so he doesn’t have it. It’s a pretty straightforward statement, so I don’t get why it’s supposedly contradicted.
 
On another note, we should probably discuss missing powers from the profiles. Estark is missing more than half of the spells he uses in the series

To name a few, Mortamor is missing Time Manipulation (He traps Gallows Moor in a time loop if the Player fails to beat a minion there to save one of the great sages), Electricity Manipulation (Kills Eldress Isnomor after granting Ashlynn Magic Burst), and a few other combat abilities
 
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Winter said:
On another note, we should probably discuss missing powers from the profiles. Estark is missing more than half of the spells he uses in the series

To name a few, Mortamor is missing Time Manipulation (He traps Gallows Moor in a time loop if the Player fails to beat a minion there to save one of the great sages), Electricity Manipulation (Kills Eldress Isnomor after granting Ashlynn Magic Burst), and a few other combat abilities
Click to expand...
A lot of characters are missing their basic elemental resistances/Weaknesses and status effect resistances too
 
Abysswalker2126 said:
A lot of characters are missing their basic elemental resistances/Weaknesses and status effect resistances too
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Yea. Pretty much all of the bosses are resistant to status effects and Nokturnus gets layered sleep resistance (since Lullab-Eye negates resistance)
 
I think generally here the assumption would just be that the surroundings are already collapsing and he's just shaking them down.
 
could just be he chews them overtime too, or maybe swallows them and lets his stomach acids melt them, unless we see him do it prob not
 
Any idea on a consensus for Early game DQ9 speed? The best I have is the protagonist and co being able to block and smoothly dodge A Lunatick’s Paralaser
 
Abysswalker2126 said:
Any idea on a consensus for Early game DQ9 speed? The best I have is the protagonist and co being able to block and smoothly dodge A Lunatick’s Paralaser
Click to expand...
I mean, most of early and mid-game Dragon Quest isn’t really separated in terms of feats and can just flat out be considered one key. If you wanted, you could pull feats from the mid-game unless there is a distinction between the two.
 
I’m trying to see if I can find anyway to get Dragon Quest to 2-B. Most of the feats I can’t find anything 2-B. The best is Rhapthorne merging 2 universes, Mort engulfing two (which could be one at a time), and Velasco gathering enough darkness to engulf a realm (of unknown size, at least affected Zenith trilogy worlds (Real and Dream), DQ8 world, and the world DQH takes place in.

Im desperate to find 2-B feats, since the god tiers currently don’t scale to cosmology. I mostly disagree with SBN’s stuff, so I don’t plan on taking anything 2-B from his blogs.
 
Winter said:
I mean, most of early and mid-game Dragon Quest isn’t really separated in terms of feats and can just flat out be considered one key. If you wanted, you could pull feats from the mid-game unless there is a distinction between the two.
Click to expand...
So would I use the Troll monster entry of being able to level mountains? Even for bosses like the Hexagoon? Or should I do a At least 9-B, Possibly 7-C
 
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Abysswalker2126 said:
So would I use the Troll monster entry of being able to level mountains? Even for bosses like the Hexagoon? Or should I do a At least 9-B, Possibly 7-C
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Enemies and stuff probably wouldn’t scale to the mid-game Hero (of course unless they’re fought in the mid-game), so the rating would just apply to him. Hexagoon would scale to whatever early game rating there is
 
Winter said:
Enemies and stuff probably wouldn’t scale to the mid-game Hero (of course unless they’re fought in the mid-game), so the rating would just apply to him. Hexagoon would scale to whatever early game rating there is
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If that’s the case then why’d you say I could scale it? So far early game is at 9-B
 
Abysswalker2126 said:
If that’s the case then why’d you say I could scale it? So far early game is at 9-B
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I was talking about the main hero having early and mid-game as one key, so if you wanted, you could pull mid-game feats to scale him speed wise. Monsters would have their ratings depending on when they’re fought (Such as Hexagoon being 9-B)

This is of course unless the Hero has distinction between early and mid-game, but for most of DQ, they don’t.
 
Winter said:
I was talking about the main hero having early and mid-game as one key, so if you wanted, you could pull mid-game feats to scale him speed wise. Monsters would have their ratings depending on when they’re fought (Such as Hexagoon being 9-B)

This is of course unless the Hero has distinction between early and mid-game, but for most of DQ, they don’t.
Click to expand...
What counts as a distinction? There’s a bunch of differences between mid and early game

The main distinction is the hero gains access to various vocations most notably the Paladin vocation which they can then do a few side quests and gain access to the ability Solar Flair which we have at tier 4 on the wiki
 
Abysswalker2126 said:
What counts as a distinction? There’s a bunch of differences between mid and early game

The main distinction is the hero gains access to various vocations most notably the Paladin vocation which they can then do a few side quests and gain access to the ability Solar Flair which we have at tier 4 on the wiki
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Plenty of things. Includes growths of power, different forms (worthy enough for a different key), different time periods, different abilities (as result of power boost, or other means), a feat that points out the character got stronger, etc. Sometimes there’s no distinction (such as Early and Mid-Game Erdrick, who just grows more powerful as the game goes on and there’s no notable event or feat to separate parts of the game up. At that point, you would merge early and mid-game).

Different vocations wouldn’t separate early and mid-game. Is there a feat in particular in the mid-game that makes note-worthy distinction between Early and Mid-Game? Otherwise, I imagine both would probably be merged.
 
Winter said:
Plenty of things. Includes growths of power, different forms (worthy enough for a different key), different time periods, different abilities (as result of power boost, or other means), a feat that points out the character got stronger, etc. Sometimes there’s no distinction (such as Early and Mid-Game Erdrick, who just grows more powerful as the game goes on and there’s no notable event or feat to separate parts of the game up. At that point, you would merge early and mid-game).

Different vocations wouldn’t separate early and mid-game. Is there a feat in particular in the mid-game that makes note-worthy distinction between Early and Mid-Game? Otherwise, I imagine both would probably be merged.
Click to expand...

I mean Midgame has trolls which are tier 7 and Solar Flair which is tier 4 and early game everything is 9-B with the possible exception of the Ragin’ Contagion as he could scale to King Godfrey who he kept at bay and the Hero only being able to keep him busy allowing Dr. Phlegming to repair the pot resealing him instead of the hero killing him
 
Abysswalker2126 said:
I mean Midgame has trolls which are tier 7 and Solar Flair which is tier 4 and early game everything is 9-B with the possible exception of the Ragin’ Contagion as he could scale to King Godfrey who he kept at bay and the Hero only being able to keep him busy allowing Dr. Phlegming to repair the pot resealing him instead of the hero killing him
Click to expand...
Ok. I haven’t played the whole way through DQ9, so I can’t speak entirely for some of it, but I’m helping the best I can. All of the end-game heroes scale to 2-C (or whatever the multiversal rating is) via DQ11 variants (who supposedly inherit their power). I’d have to double check with that game for a fact or cap, but yea. Early or Mid-game being split or not is up to you if you figure there’d be a key split.
 
After looking at the stability page, we can scale Mortamor’s world swallowing feat to physicals (since I’ve seen some people disagree with this scaling to physicals, I might as well post this). Right as he dies, the dimension falls apart, meaning his existence stabilizes the dimension. Using some simple logic, he should be able to stabilize such after absorbing another world. It should also be worth noting that he plans to absorb all other worlds too. With the cosmology being 2-B, this should also promote him to the tier, along with the rest of the verse.
 
Winter said:
After looking at the stability page, we can scale Mortamor’s world swallowing feat to physicals (since I’ve seen some people disagree with this scaling to physicals, I might as well post this). Right as he dies, the dimension falls apart, meaning his existence stabilizes the dimension. Using some simple logic, he should be able to stabilize such after absorbing another world. It should also be worth noting that he plans to absorb all other worlds too. With the cosmology being 2-B, this should also promote him to the tier, along with the rest of the verse.
Click to expand...
So for speed would it be ok to Put early game bosses at Relativistic since the hero can block/dodge a Lunaticks Paralaser?
 
Abysswalker2126 said:
So for speed would it be ok to Put early game bosses at Relativistic since the hero can block/dodge a Lunaticks Paralaser?
Click to expand...
They would scale, problem is, the laser would probably need calced. I’m not sure if lasers are default Relativistic since you can get wildly different ratings with certain lasers
 
Winter said:
After looking at the stability page, we can scale Mortamor’s world swallowing feat to physicals (since I’ve seen some people disagree with this scaling to physicals, I might as well post this). Right as he dies, the dimension falls apart, meaning his existence stabilizes the dimension. Using some simple logic, he should be able to stabilize such after absorbing another world. It should also be worth noting that he plans to absorb all other worlds too. With the cosmology being 2-B, this should also promote him to the tier, along with the rest of the verse.
Click to expand...
Eh, what? I dunno if absorbing other worlds means he'd also be sustaining them. Let alone that you'd have to make an argument as to why sustainment is scaling to physicals to begin with.
 
Armorchompy said:
Eh, what? I dunno if absorbing other worlds means he'd also be sustaining them. Let alone that you'd have to make an argument as to why sustainment is scaling to physicals to begin with.
Click to expand...
It would. He’s absorbing other worlds into the Dread Realm, something he both created and has direct control over. It makes sense he’d be able to sustain it and whatever realm he plans to absorb. Sustainment page says it scales to statistics.
 
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