Dragon Quest Revival Discussion Thread

[Winter]

Look I hate to do this but look at literally any other RPG with a confusion status that we have indexed, none of them list it as Mind Manip. Without going into my own profiles (which for the record got CRTs accepting them, obviously) FF does Madness Manip out of I presume some dumb verse shit (D&D also lists Confusion as Madness Manip but that's due to specific context), Pokemon lists it as Status Effect Inducement, Persona/SMT list it as Status Effect Inducement, Earthbound lists Feeling Strange (which is just the series' term for Confusion) as Status Effect Inducement, Kingdom Hearts lists it as Status Effect Inducement, Fire Emblem lists it as Status Effect Inducement, the only RPG I've found using Mind Manip for Confusion are Octopath Traveler and Xenoblade and the latter is specifically for afflicting machines with it which... I don't know why that'd even be mind manipulation, it sounds like tech manip, but whatever.

It's just not how we (usually, there's some confusion) treat it.

So not only are most of these examples listed as mind manipulation or some other hax in the verses you mentioned (those being the ones that do something somewhat different like FF and DND), but the status effect page literally mentions confusion as mind manipulation. The problem with some of these is that they aren’t listed on some profiles for whatever reason, but I’ve consistently seen Mind Manipulation shown for confusion statuses at least once in those verses. Pokémon also consistently showed confusion as mind manipulation in the profiles. I’m not sure what your point is here, and I don’t know what else to say. You haven’t once given a direct reason that it isn’t mind manipulation.

 

[Armorchompy]

So not only are most of these examples listed as mind manipulation or some other hax in the verses you mentioned (those being the ones that do something somewhat different like FF and DND), but the status effect page literally mentions confusion as mind manipulation.

Most of them definitely don't, I checked (granted I only checked one or two profiles per verse), they basically all list it as status effect inducement. That said I guess it is listed as Mind Manipulation in Status Effect Inducement and I... don't really have a counter to that I guess, I still don't think that's what it should be considered but there is official precedent, so I'll concede, apologies for not being aware of that.

 

[Winter]

Most of them definitely don't, I checked (granted I only checked one or two profiles per verse), they basically all list it as status effect inducement. That said I guess it is listed as Mind Manipulation in Status Effect Inducement and I... don't really have a counter to that I guess, I still don't think that's what it should be considered but there is official precedent, so I'll concede, apologies for not being aware of that.

We must’ve looked at differences profiles. Earthbound, Pokemon, and Kingdom Hearts listed it as mind manipulation (though only on certain profiles for Earth and Hearts for whatever reason). FF, DND, and Persona had it as something different due to different effects (Iirc, FF had it as madness manip, Persona had it as Empath, and I think the same was for DND). The one I didn’t check is Fire Emblems. No need to apologize tho, your good

 

[Armorchompy]

We must’ve looked at differences profiles. Earthbound, Pokemon, and Kingdom Hearts listed it as mind manipulation (though only on certain profiles for Earth and Hearts for whatever reason). FF, DND, and Persona had it as something different due to different effects (Iirc, FF had it as madness manip, Persona had it as Empath, and I think the same was for DND). The one I didn’t check is Fire Emblems. No need to apologize tho, your good

When it came to Pokemon i looked at Crobat's profile (My reasoning being that he's probably the pokemon most associated with confusion)

 

[Winter]

When it came to Pokemon i looked at Crobat's profile (My reasoning being that he's probably the pokemon most associated with confusion)

I looked at Alakazam’s since he was psychic boy (and probably one of the most broken standard Pokémon for vs matches)

 

[Abysswalker2126]

You misunderstood me. I said the sitting out part of the statement is wrong, not the unable to tell friend from foe. They don’t sit out of battle when confused, which is why I said the guidebook was wrong on that part. To answer that first part, the guidebook would be a secondary source while the main game is the primary source.

No you misunderstood I never said the enemies sat out of battle the entry basically said that the caster could simply sit back and relax as your enemies killed each other

 

[Winter]

No you misunderstood I never said the enemies sat out of battle the entry basically said that the caster could simply sit back and relax as your enemies killed each other

Oh, that’s mb

 

[Winter]

Tiering here is definitely not making as much progress.

The strongest characters of each game are no matter what scaling to a 4-D rating (via DQ11 hall of remembrance bosses), most of them lean to Low 2-C (Mortamor absorbing a world, Rhapthorne’s space-time contortion, and the potential feat of Timewyrm taking its timeline over, which I need to look into), with Mortamor having a 2-C, likely 2-B feat (at least where I rate it, this seems pretty likely he’d be able to stabilize something of this level). Rhapthorne’s world merging feat is unusable now since this was achieved by a portal, stated by several books and said process started on-screen after he gets fat.

Low tiers are looking to be 9-C to 9-B (9-C via standard weapon scaling and 9-B via sheer size of some monsters and via upscaling). Tiers may vary depending on feats, but this sticks for now. I’m debating on whether I want to count builders towards monster scaling of other games since it’s sheer difference compared to other games. Golem’s have the most notable feat in Builders since it can bust massive holes in stone and other hard materials.

Mid tiers look like they vary. Previous 7-B feats Neo came up with aren’t consistent with gameplay. Troll feat said earlier might work for some 7-B feat (given Larvitar is Low 7-B for a similar feat). Otherwise, it would probably be High 6-A via Magma Staff (monsters would probably upscale from this)

Speed-wise, I’m genuinely not sure for the most part. Terry feat might be still be applicable since he dodged lightning. Late game I’m confident is Immeasurable via Estark.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd say low tiers can be solidly 9-B, in DQV you can destroy barrels even as a completely untrained child.

I dunno how many monsters would get to scale off High 6-A, the only bosses you fight after that are people from the Order of Zugzwang and the Staff itself is a pretty powerful artifact.

I... still don't really think Estark is really worth anything.

 

[Winter]

I'd say low tiers can be solidly 9-B, in DQV you can destroy barrels even as a completely untrained child.

I dunno how many monsters would get to scale off High 6-A, the only bosses you fight after that are people from the Order of Zugzwang and the Staff itself is a pretty powerful artifact.

I... still don't really think Estark is really worth anything.

I forgot most of them can break barrels

The magma staff is a relatively weak weapon in combat though. Actually using it as an item does a low damage explosion which most monsters at that point survive pretty casually. Order of Zugzwang members (minus Slon and Kon, since they’re the fodder of the group) would probably scale to the Zenithian equipment given the point in the game you fight them at.

I figured you’d say that

 

[Armorchompy]

The magma staff is a relatively weak weapon in combat though. Actually using it as an item does a low damage explosion which most monsters at that point survive pretty casually.

That's definitely a game mechanics thing, it's straight-up required for the party to be able to blow their way into the mountain, it'd make no sense if they were much stronger than it.

Order of Zugzwang members (minus Slon and Kon, since they’re the fodder of the group) would probably scale to the Zenithian equipment given the point in the game you fight them at.

I would question if just having the Zenithian Equipment means you're tier 2 given that the male child starts with it and he still has to grow in power a lot to match any of them. If it is then there's no reason for having a High 6-A key given that he has the sword way before you get the rod.

 

[Winter]

That's definitely a game mechanics thing, it's straight-up required for the party to be able to blow their way into the mountain, it'd make no sense if they were much stronger than it.

I would question if just having the Zenithian Equipment means you're tier 2 given that the male child starts with it and he still has to grow in power a lot to match any of them. If it is then there's no reason for having a High 6-A key given that he has the sword way before you get the rod.

That is not how game mechanics work. It’s literally a weak weapon compared to others, it doesn’t matter what feat it has.

I don’t really know what to say here, I’ll need some time to think on it. High 6-A is still applicable to Madason’s Era 2 key since he can kill Kon, who should be equal to Slon, who’s fought in Era 3 (where you get the Magma Staff). He also fights monsters that are fought in DQ4 at the point where you get the Magma Staff (which busts a volcano in that game iirc)

 

[Armorchompy]

That is not how game mechanics work. It’s literally a weak weapon compared to others, it doesn’t matter what feat it has.

Statistics in a videogame aren't canon. Normally I'm fine with considering them as supporting evidence but they make it pretty explicit that it's a really powerful artifact that is necessary to perform a feat they'd otherwise really struggle with, it makes no sense for it to be weaker than a weapon they found in a random chest three dungeons before.

High 6-A is still applicable to Madason’s Era 2 key since he can kill Kon, who should be equal to Slon, who’s fought in Era 3 (where you get the Magma Staff). He also fights monsters that are fought in DQ4 at the point where you get the Magma Staff (which busts a volcano in that game iirc)

Maybe yeah, wasn't aware it was in 4 too.

 

[Winter]

Statistics in a videogame aren't canon. Normally I'm fine with considering them as supporting evidence but they make it pretty explicit that it's a really powerful artifact that is necessary to perform a feat they'd otherwise really struggle with, it makes no sense for it to be weaker than a weapon they found in a random chest three dungeons before.

Maybe yeah, wasn't aware it was in 4 too.

They aren’t, but that doesn’t mean you can’t use them to scale weapons from each other. They don’t make it explicit at all, it’s just a weapon they need to gain access to a cave, it isn’t really stated or shown otherwise to be super powerful. This also doesn’t make sense, as things like this do happen in RPGs. It’s like saying some pokémon did this feat and some other higher evo pokemon encountered later is weaker because the feat is crazy powerful. Even some late game high evo pokemon are way weaker than others shown earlier.

Btw, did you finish DQ5 yet?

 

[Armorchompy]

They aren’t, but that doesn’t mean you can’t use them to scale weapons from each other. They don’t make it explicit at all, it’s just a weapon they need to gain access to a cave, it isn’t really stated or shown otherwise to be super powerful.

Gain access to a cave by destroying an obstacle that they could otherwise not break through. I don't see how that doesn't imply that it isn't at least briefly the strongest thing in their possession (With the exception of the Zenithian Sword but I don't think the child can use its full power yet).

Also as a note, the Magma Rod is actually pretty powerful if you use it as an item to cast spells, and that also means that its power depends on the person casting through it, so I just really wouldn't say that random monsters scale to the output shown at all.

This also doesn’t make sense, as things like this do happen in RPGs. It’s like saying some pokémon did this feat and some other higher evo pokemon encountered later is weaker because the feat is crazy powerful. Even some late game high evo pokemon are way weaker than others shown earlier.

No it's like saying that just because you can catch Giratina before the 8th gym in Platinum that means the Gravelers you find in Victory Road scale to it, because they're found later into the game.

Btw, did you finish DQ5 yet?

Yeah, a while ago, forgot to mention it here I think.

 

[Winter]

Gain access to a cave by destroying an obstacle that they could otherwise not break through. I don't see how that doesn't imply that it isn't at least briefly the strongest thing in their possession (With the exception of the Zenithian Sword but I don't think the child can use its full power yet).

Also as a note, the Magma Rod is actually pretty powerful if you use it as an item to cast spells, and that also means that its power depends on the person casting through it, so I just really wouldn't say that random monsters scale to the output shown at all.

No it's like saying that just because you can catch Giratina before the 8th gym in Platinum that means the Gravelers you find in Victory Road scale to it, because they're found later into the game.

Yeah, a while ago, forgot to mention it here I think.

Your contradicting your own point here. If this is the absolute strongest thing in their arsenal at this point in the game, with them being incapable of destroying a mountain otherwise, then what’s the point of scaling them to the staff if it is stronger than what they are currently? You’d be saying they don’t scale to it since this is stronger than what they can do. In this case for them to scale to it, It’d be plot-based stupidity for them being incapable of destroying the mountain, despite being comparable, if not stronger than the staff itself.

The magma staff isn’t even the strongest staff. You get the dragon staff two dungeons later, which is the strongest staff in the game. That is not true, all staffs and mage based weaponry amplify magic potency. The staff’s ability is the staff’s own magic, not the user casting a spell through the staff. The magma staff is basically a standard staff with the magical power of causing a big boom. At this point, I feel we’ve slightly derailed from talking about whether monsters actually scale to the magma staff and instead whether the magma staff is the strongest weapon they have. You haven’t really given a reason for why they don’t scale and said the staff is really strong instead (which it isn’t even the strongest of its weapon category).

Using the same comparison, nothing really shows the staff is a Giratina. The former is capable of a big feat with monsters showing no real comparison that makes the staff stronger, while the latter is evidently shown to be above the Pokémon with the Pokémon showing no comparison because the latter is way stronger. In simpler terms, others aren’t weaker compared to the staff’s feat out of lack of showing, while Giratina is evidently stronger compared to what a Graveler can do.

You do any of the post-game yet? There’s a secret dungeon and more recruitable monsters

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Don't mind me I'm just enjoying the show of seeing Winter argue with a staff member over a staff.

 

[Winter]

Don't mind me I'm just enjoying the show of seeing Winter argue with a staff member over a staff.

I shouldn’t have contested with a member of the staff himself, there’s no way I win, he knows the staff better than anyone

Anyways, welcome to the discussion. You should probably scroll through the thread to figure out what was discussed. I also made a spell list for the profiles

Spell List:

There’s also a possibility of DQ scaling to 2-B via Mortamor planning to absorb the cosmology and stabilizing it

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I shouldn’t have contested with a member of the staff himself, there’s no way I win, he knows the staff better than anyone

Anyways, welcome to the discussion. You should probably scroll through the thread to figure out what was discussed. I also made a spell list for the profiles.

Yet I'm reminded that Whack spells are usually useless or unreliable when the party uses them but when the opponents uses them, it's nearly always instant death.

There’s also a possibility of DQ scaling to 2-B via Mortamor planning to absorb the cosmology and stabilizing it

And naturally swore chad demon (aka Nokturnus) will scale above this no? Also I'm guessing DQ peaks at DQ6 in terms of power with DQ9 and DQ10 (albeit I know little about the MMO) directly scaling to it, there's also the spin-off games too (I believe one of them takes place in a bad timeline where Alef actually joins the Dragonlord).

 

[Winter]

Yet I'm reminded that Whack spells are usually useless or unreliable when the party uses them but when the opponents uses them, it's nearly always instant death.

And naturally swore chad demon (aka Nokturnus) will scale above this no? Also I'm guessing DQ peaks at DQ6 in terms of power with DQ9 and DQ10 (albeit I know little about the MMO) directly scaling to it, there's also the spin-off games too (I believe one of them takes place in a bad timeline where Alef actually joins the Dragonlord).

Rip

No, Nokturnus is the bottom of the verse and Prince Charmles is the god tier

Actually though, verse peaks with Nokturnus and Calasmos, with maybe Shadroth and the Goddess being up there too. DQ 11 Hall of Remembrance basically makes every final boss have some sort of scaling to each other, outside of spin offs like Builders since they both are in an alternate universe and not really connected to the main games. Erdrick Trilogy, 7, and 9 have an unknown place in the scaling chain due to lack of direct connection to the other games, while Rhapthorne is at the bottom of the Zenithian final boss chain via scaling with Estark, then somewhere along the line, there’s Nimzo, Psaro, and Mort.

 

[Armorchompy]

Your contradicting your own point here. If this is the absolute strongest thing in their arsenal at this point in the game, with them being incapable of destroying a mountain otherwise, then what’s the point of scaling them to the staff if it is stronger than what they are currently? You’d be saying they don’t scale to it since this is stronger than what they can do. In this case for them to scale to it, It’d be plot-based stupidity for them being incapable of destroying the mountain, despite being comparable, if not stronger than the staff itself.

I'd say they're weaker than the staff, but comparable, and eventually surpass it.

The magma staff isn’t even the strongest staff. You get the dragon staff two dungeons later, which is the strongest staff in the game.

Ok? It's the strongest staff at that point of the game, what does it matter if there's an even stronger one later on?

At this point, I feel we’ve slightly derailed from talking about whether monsters actually scale to the magma staff and instead whether the magma staff is the strongest weapon they have. You haven’t really given a reason for why they don’t scale and said the staff is really strong instead (which it isn’t even the strongest of its weapon category).

Using the same comparison, nothing really shows the staff is a Giratina. The former is capable of a big feat with monsters showing no real comparison that makes the staff stronger, while the latter is evidently shown to be above the Pokémon with the Pokémon showing no comparison because the latter is way stronger. In simpler terms, others aren’t weaker compared to the staff’s feat out of lack of showing, while Giratina is evidently stronger compared to what a Graveler can do.

I don't need to give a reason, you do. By default we assume that random fodder enemies don't scale to the protagonist or their equipment unless there's reason to believe the opposite. I would say that the staff is "evidently stronger" anyways given that it's a weapon wielded by the protagonists and needed for plot progression due to its sheer destructive ability.

You do any of the post-game yet? There’s a secret dungeon and more recruitable monsters

Nah, I liked the ending and thought it was a good point to stop at.

 

[Winter]

I'd say they're weaker than the staff, but comparable, and eventually surpass it.

Ok? It's the strongest staff at that point of the game, what does it matter if there's an even stronger one later on?

I don't need to give a reason, you do. By default we assume that random fodder enemies don't scale to the protagonist or their equipment unless there's reason to believe the opposite. I would say that the staff is "evidently stronger" anyways given that it's a weapon wielded by the protagonists and needed for plot progression due to its sheer destructive ability.

Nah, I liked the ending and thought it was a good point to stop at.

My point with the Dragon Staff comes in here, since the Magma Staff would just a regular staff, with the Dragon Staff coming in not too much further into the game, there’s no point in making it scale above everything else at that point if they already surpass it moments later. In general, I think they have scaled to it since act 2 since Madason already scales above Kon, who’s comparable to Slon, who is fought in the same dungeon as the Dragon Staff.

Fair enough. The mountain being an obstacle that’s only able to be handled by the Magma staff would be plot-induced stupidity. They’re already comparable to it, and it’s a plot necessary weapon to do something they are stronger than. Not to mention, destroying the mountain themselves would be way of a weaker feat compared to how the staff explicitly did it, so there’s that.

The post-game doesn’t really add much plot wise, so I feel you could go through without ruining your view on the story. To each their own though. You have plans on getting any other DQ games? I heavily recommend 4 (as a prequel in ways), and DQ8 (Awesome game in general).

 

[Armorchompy]

My point with the Dragon Staff comes in here, since the Magma Staff would just a regular staff, with the Dragon Staff coming in not too much further into the game, there’s no point in making it scale above everything else at that point if they already surpass it moments later.

The second most powerful staff in the entire country is "just a regular staff"? Honestly I'd doubt the fact that it isn't stronger anyways. There's five whole weapons in DQV that are stronger than the Zenithian Sword but we wouldn't assume them to be stronger than it in gameplay.

In general, I think they have scaled to it since act 2 since Madason already scales above Kon, who’s comparable to Slon, who is fought in the same dungeon as the Dragon Staff.

Why is he comparable? They just kinda stand side by side in most of the scenes they're in, nothing implies that.

They’re already comparable to it, and it’s a plot necessary weapon to do something they are stronger than

Why are you just randomly assuming they're stronger when the only piece of evidence implies the opposite?

The post-game doesn’t really add much plot wise, so I feel you could go through without ruining your view on the story. To each their own though. You have plans on getting any other DQ games? I heavily recommend 4 (as a prequel in ways), and DQ8 (Awesome game in general).

Not immediately, I've got a massive backlog. How are the other games on the DS? I feel like trips are a good opportunity to start playing.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Not immediately, I've got a massive backlog. How are the other games on the DS? I feel like trips are a good opportunity to start playing.

For the DS games/remakes:

*Like Winter said you can't go wrong with DQ4, it's a classic and easily among the most popular entries in the series mostly due to introducing a fan favourite protagonist and a fan favourite antagonist as well as a few memorable set pieces. There's also a well known story from years ago of a Japanese salaryman attempting to kill his colleague for not agreeing DQ4 was the best DQ game (If there was any doubt about the cultural impact of DQ in Japan).

*DQ6 is my personal favourite outta the Zenithian trilogy but it's also the most difficult, with the early to mid game having a notorious difficulty spike so I would only recommend it if you don't mind a more archaic JRPG. Also some choices really do matter and I think it's the first game where the DQ cosmology actually gets alluded to, so it's a pretty big game overall that does ask a lot from the player but personally I find DQ6 very rewarding to play.

*DQ9 is a oddball since pretty much all the characters in your party (including the MC) are fully customisable which means each cartridge of DQ9 will have different looking party members plus this was the first mainline DQ game to have true multiplayer (local co-op) where you could hop into each other's worlds. Unfortunately outside the MC, the party members are complete blank slates in terms of personality and don't even appear in the cutscenes (iirc) so it's up to the player to characterize them also a ton of postgame content/free DLC is no longer available due to being tied to dead Nintendo Wi-Fi (including additional missions and lore), honestly DQ9 is probably the DQ game that needs a remake the most with online co-op and the DLC being restored but that's just my take, it's a inoffensive fun casual JRPG overall (in it's current state).

3DS games/remakes:

*DQ7 is considered by some to be the black sheep of the franchise as it marked an end of DQ games coming in a trilogy, that shared a world and overarching themes and instead was the first truly standalone mainline title (iirc). DQ7 is a much more slow paced and methodical game that introduces more puzzle elements into the gameplay where the purpose is not to explore the world but to actually have a world to explore, as a result the early to mid game can be off-putting for some but the game does very much come through in the end imo. DQ7 is kinda an experimental JRPG that might appeal to some more than others.


*DQ8 was pretty much the most beginner friendly entry before DQ11 came out, keeping the traditional spirit of the franchise while introducing some much needed quality of a life improvements also this was the last mainline entry to have recruitable Monsters, so if you enjoyed that feature take full advantage of it here. DQ8 was also the first mainline entry to have voice acting which was a major deal back when it was originally released, so it may help with narrative immersion more also it has the among the most popular soundtracks in the franchise, an overall great JRPG.

 

[Winter]

For the DS games/remakes:

*Like Winter said you can't go wrong with DQ4, it's a classic and easily among the most popular entries in the series mostly due to introducing a fan favourite protagonist and a fan favourite antagonist as well as a few memorable set pieces. There's also a well known story from years ago of a Japanese salaryman attempting to kill his colleague for not agreeing DQ4 was the best DQ game (If there was any doubt about the cultural impact of DQ in Japan).

*DQ6 is my personal favourite outta the Zenithian trilogy but it's also the most difficult, with the early to mid game having a notorious difficulty spike so I would only recommend it if you don't mind a more archaic JRPG. Also some choices really do matter and I think it's the first game where the DQ cosmology actually gets alluded to, so it's a pretty big game overall that does ask a lot from the player but personally I find DQ6 very rewarding to play.

*DQ9 is a oddball since pretty much all the characters in your party (including the MC) are fully customisable which means each cartridge of DQ9 will have different looking party members plus this was the first mainline DQ game to have true multiplayer (local co-op) where you could hop into each other's worlds. Unfortunately outside the MC, the party members are complete blank slates in terms of personality and don't even appear in the cutscenes (iirc) so it's up to the player to characterize them also a ton of postgame content/free DLC is no longer available due to being tied to dead Nintendo Wi-Fi (including additional missions and lore), honestly DQ9 is probably the DQ game that needs a remake the most with online co-op and the DLC being restored but that's just my take, it's a inoffensive fun casual JRPG overall (in it's current state).

3DS games/remakes:

*DQ7 is considered by some to be the black sheep of the franchise as it marked an end of DQ games coming in a trilogy, that shared a world and overarching themes and instead was the first truly standalone mainline title (iirc). DQ7 is a much more slow paced and methodical game that introduces more puzzle elements into the gameplay where the purpose is not to explore the world but to actually have a world to explore, as a result the early to mid game can be off-putting for some but the game does very much come through in the end imo. DQ7 is kinda an experimental JRPG that might appeal to some more than others.


*DQ8 was pretty much the most beginner friendly entry before DQ11 came out, keeping the traditional spirit of the franchise while introducing some much needed quality of a life improvements also this was the last mainline entry to have recruitable Monsters, so if you enjoyed that feature take full advantage of it here. DQ8 was also the first mainline entry to have voice acting which was a major deal back when it was originally released, so it may help with narrative immersion more also it has the among the most popular soundtracks in the franchise, an overall great JRPG.

I remember being like level 35ish going to the final boss in DQ4 and genuinely didn’t think I was going to beat him but I lucked out anyways lol. But yea, characters are great and their personalities even moreso in DQ Heroes. The post-game is also the technical canon ending to the game, so definitely recommend doing that.

DQ6 is pretty good, but the class system makes you have to grind way more than in the other games. I have not beat this one yet.

I haven’t gotten too far in DQ9 due to not actually owning it and using an emulator. I’ve seen some people figure out how to get the post-game dungeons on the emulated version, so I’ll probably have to do something there.

DQ7 I had a hard time getting into. Not to mention, half the fanbase hates it for being too long.

DQ8 like I said is great. It’s grown on me as my favorite DQ game. Characters are very memorable, voice acting is great, so many other things. I genuinely like the PS2 version more, but the 3DS has more content.

 

[Winter]

The second most powerful staff in the entire country is "just a regular staff"? Honestly I'd doubt the fact that it isn't stronger anyways. There's five whole weapons in DQV that are stronger than the Zenithian Sword but we wouldn't assume them to be stronger than it in gameplay.

Why is he comparable? They just kinda stand side by side in most of the scenes they're in, nothing implies that.

Why are you just randomly assuming they're stronger when the only piece of evidence implies the opposite?

Not immediately, I've got a massive backlog. How are the other games on the DS? I feel like trips are a good opportunity to start playing.

Yes, that’s how it acts as a weapon and the only major use for it was to remove an obstacle. It’s linear scaling based on staff strength. Magma Staff > Staff of Resurrection > Dragon Staff. Zenithian Sword is different, since it’s the plot necessary item to defeat Nimzo. Magma staff is just an event item.


Because both fought and lost to Pankraz, and both can harm him and slowly cripple him. Both being able to trade blows with the same person logically makes them comparable.

I’ve explained why already lol. Your “evidence” is plot stupidity. Just because the game requires you to use the staff doesn’t automatically demote their comparison to the staff (which is treated as a standard combat weapon among others). You assume he can’t destroy the mountain because the game requires you to grab a staff. Nothing implied they’re weaker than it, with your evidence being “they can’t do it themselves,” which isn’t implied by the feat, only “the magma staff is used to destroy a mountain”.

Me and Axiom already talked about this, but they’re all good (with the maybe exception of 7, but don’t let that stop you from getting it). Besides, 7 and 10 are the games we lack the most info on, with the former being accessible, we need someone with knowledge on said game.

 

[Winter]

Also, anyone else I could invite to the thread?

 

[Armorchompy]

Because both fought and lost to Pankraz, and both can harm him and slowly cripple him. Both being able to trade blows with the same person logically makes them comparable.

Fair enough. I wouldn't really say they scale to Pankraz given he's willingly letting them kill him and it still takes like five minutes to wear him down but yeah, I'd say that implies they're comparable.

I’ve explained why already lol. Your “evidence” is plot stupidity. Just because the game requires you to use the staff doesn’t automatically demote their comparison to the staff (which is treated as a standard combat weapon among others). You assume he can’t destroy the mountain because the game requires you to grab a staff. Nothing implied they’re weaker than it, with your evidence being “they can’t do it themselves,” which isn’t implied by the feat, only “the magma staff is used to destroy a mountain”.

You can't just claim "it's plot stupidity" without actual reasoning. They're specifically given the thing to access the place, if you try to get there before it's an impassable obstacle, there's no argument to "they can just do it anyways", obviously there's a degree of PIS involved no matter what because even if they were just tier 8 they could hack their way through pretty quickly but the scenario unequivocally portrays the staff as stronger than they are anyways.

 

[Winter]

Fair enough. I wouldn't really say they scale to Pankraz given he's willingly letting them kill him and it still takes like five minutes to wear him down but yeah, I'd say that implies they're comparable.

You can't just claim "it's plot stupidity" without actual reasoning. They're specifically given the thing to access the place, if you try to get there before it's an impassable obstacle, there's no argument to "they can just do it anyways", obviously there's a degree of PIS involved no matter what because even if they were just tier 8 they could hack their way through pretty quickly but the scenario unequivocally portrays the staff as stronger than they are anyways.

I said why earlier, but to say again, them being comparable to the staff since Gen 2 (Since Madason beat Kon), it would make him comparable to Slon, who was fought after the Magma Staff was obtained. Thus they would already be superior to it before obtaining it, making the staff being superior irrelevant. Meaning they would already be strong enough to destroy the mountain, making it plot induced stupidity for them needing the staff. Explain how the staff is portrayed stronger. I’ll say this again, it is shown to be apart of their equipment set, making it a pretty standard weapon among their use, before and after it blows up the mountain.

Looking at the DQ wiki, the Magma Staff appears in every mainline game after 4, so we’ll have some scaling for the rest of the games too, though it can only be alchemised starting with 8. Not sure if this affects it becomparable to its Zenithian showings or not.

 

[Armorchompy]

I said why earlier, but to say again, them being comparable to the staff since Gen 2 (Since Madason beat Kon), it would make him comparable to Slon, who was fought after the Magma Staff was obtained. Thus they would already be superior to it before obtaining it, making the staff being superior irrelevant. Meaning they would already be strong enough to destroy the mountain, making it plot induced stupidity for them needing the staff. Explain how the staff is portrayed stronger. I’ll say this again, it is shown to be apart of their equipment set, making it a pretty standard weapon among their use, before and after it blows up the mountain.

Nothing's saying Madason = Kon = Slon < Magma Staff, there's a fuckton of wiggle room. If I had to guess, they were weaker, but comparable to Kon (given that they 4v1d him), who we know is comparable to Slon, but is likely inferior, given that he's fought earlier in the game, and then they grow in power until they're closer to Slon than before.

Listen man none of this would mean it'd actually scale to fodder enemies, anyways, we've gotten sidetracked.

 

[Winter]

Nothing's saying Madason = Kon = Slon < Magma Staff, there's a fuckton of wiggle room. If I had to guess, they were weaker, but comparable to Kon (given that they 4v1d him), who we know is comparable to Slon, but is likely inferior, given that he's fought earlier in the game, and then they grow in power until they're closer to Slon than before.

Listen man none of this would mean it'd actually scale to fodder enemies, anyways, we've gotten sidetracked.

Not necessarily that, but rather Madason > Kon = Slon > Magma Staff. Either way, Kon being stronger is very slight, if not at all, given it’s matter of him handling numbers rather than being flat out stronger. They could all be roughly equal to Kon and he could still logically handle them (which is probably the case since they can take blows from him and kill him). Slon is probably slightly stronger out of sheer physical strength (given he’s a physical attacker while Kon is more magic based) but the stat growth is not extremely notable for him to be far superior.

As a side note, would you agree to Queen Ferz and King Koral scaling to 4-D rating? At this point, the hero gets all of the Zenithian equipment and this is right before Nadiria. Not to mention, Koral is implied to have been given some degree of power from Nimzo as described in his dialogue, which ends up being gifted to Ladja after his fight (given he can suddenly fight the end-game party later).

I already conceded to this point a bit ago.

 

[Armorchompy]

As a side note, would you agree to Queen Ferz and King Koral scaling to 4-D rating? At this point, the hero gets all of the Zenithian equipment and this is right before Nadiria. Not to mention, Koral is implied to have been given some degree of power from Nimzo as described in his dialogue, which ends up being gifted to Ladja after his fight (given he can suddenly fight the end-game party later).

Not sure. For me it mainly depends on how we treat Zenithian equipment's tiering.

I already conceded to this point a bit ago.

Which point

 

[Winter]

Not sure. For me it mainly depends on how we treat Zenithian equipment's tiering.

Which point

I mean, it would be 4-D rating anyway no matter what, but it’s a matter of whether the son scales to it. You brought up he wouldn’t initially scale to it, so I’m not sure how we scale him to said equipment.

The one about monsters scaling to the staff.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, it would be 4-D rating anyway no matter what, but it’s a matter of whether the son scales to it. You brought up he wouldn’t initially scale to it, so I’m not sure how we scale him to said equipment.

Probably, but I dunno if it'd depends on the wielder's own power, I haven't played the other game.

 

[Winter]

Probably, but I dunno if it'd depends on the wielder's own power, I haven't played the other game.

The sword’s power doesn’t really depend on the wielder. I get what you mean by him not scaling to it since it’s not like he has 4-D strength yet. But I feel like he could scale to such by the time he gets the armor since he can still get harmed by said monsters after equipping it and so on.


Also no one replied to this, so I’m just gonna ask, how are we differentiating frizz and Sizz attacks? They’re treated as different damage types with one being capable of immunity to one while the other can damage them and vice versa. The main difference I can see is sizz spells being hellfire (though in this case it isn’t stronger than regular fire, it’s just flat out a different type of fire), as shown with spell descriptions. What you think? Same goes for anyone who sees this

 

[Armorchompy]

The sword’s power doesn’t really depend on the wielder. I get what you mean by him not scaling to it since it’s not like he has 4-D strength yet. But I feel like he could scale to such by the time he gets the armor since he can still get harmed by said monsters after equipping it and so on.

I guess that makes sense. So he'd be like, High 6-A, Low 2-C with sword | Low 2-C?

Also no one replied to this, so I’m just gonna ask, how are we differentiating frizz and Sizz attacks? They’re treated as different damage types with one being capable of immunity to one while the other can damage them and vice versa. The main difference I can see is sizz spells being hellfire (though in this case it isn’t stronger than regular fire, it’s just flat out a different type of fire), as shown with spell descriptions. What you think? Same goes for anyone who sees this

I think there's an argument for fire resistance negation if it's just its own special element, i'd list both as fire manip though.

 

[Winter]

I guess that makes sense. So he'd be like, High 6-A, Low 2-C with sword | Low 2-C?

I think there's an argument for fire resistance negation if it's just its own special element, i'd list both as fire manip though.

If he were 4-D rating with the sword before he got to that level of strength, that would cause some inconsistencies since they can fight on par with Slon, Pre-Buff Ladja, and Bjorn before he physically scales to it (though Bjorn could debatably scale to said rating since you go to Crocodilopolis right after). The son and daughter would probably have 2 keys like you said, with a pre-nadiria and post/end of game key. I think it would be High 6-A | 4-D rating. I’m pretty sure the Son could have 4-D durability with the shield though since it’s something he doesn’t have to scale to.

I could see it but it wouldn’t be resistance negation if they’re two different types of fire, it would just have to be specified that they are different on the profiles.

 

[Armorchompy]

If he were 4-D rating with the sword before he got to that level of strength, that would cause some inconsistencies since they can fight on par with Slon, Pre-Buff Ladja, and Bjorn before he physically scales to it (though Bjorn could debatably scale to said rating since you go to Crocodilopolis right after). The son and daughter would probably have 2 keys like you said, with a pre-nadiria and post/end of game key. I think it would be High 6-A | 4-D rating. I’m pretty sure the Son could have 4-D durability with the shield though since it’s something he doesn’t have to scale to.

I could see it but it wouldn’t be resistance negation if they’re two different types of fire, it would just have to be specified that they are different on the profiles.

yeah, fair. i guess just fire manip on both

 

[Winter]

yeah, fair. i guess just fire manip on both

Ok. I’ll add to the spell list + a few more spells later, along with an abilities list.

 

[Winter]

For the DS games/remakes:

*Like Winter said you can't go wrong with DQ4, it's a classic and easily among the most popular entries in the series mostly due to introducing a fan favourite protagonist and a fan favourite antagonist as well as a few memorable set pieces. There's also a well known story from years ago of a Japanese salaryman attempting to kill his colleague for not agreeing DQ4 was the best DQ game (If there was any doubt about the cultural impact of DQ in Japan).

*DQ6 is my personal favourite outta the Zenithian trilogy but it's also the most difficult, with the early to mid game having a notorious difficulty spike so I would only recommend it if you don't mind a more archaic JRPG. Also some choices really do matter and I think it's the first game where the DQ cosmology actually gets alluded to, so it's a pretty big game overall that does ask a lot from the player but personally I find DQ6 very rewarding to play.

*DQ9 is a oddball since pretty much all the characters in your party (including the MC) are fully customisable which means each cartridge of DQ9 will have different looking party members plus this was the first mainline DQ game to have true multiplayer (local co-op) where you could hop into each other's worlds. Unfortunately outside the MC, the party members are complete blank slates in terms of personality and don't even appear in the cutscenes (iirc) so it's up to the player to characterize them also a ton of postgame content/free DLC is no longer available due to being tied to dead Nintendo Wi-Fi (including additional missions and lore), honestly DQ9 is probably the DQ game that needs a remake the most with online co-op and the DLC being restored but that's just my take, it's a inoffensive fun casual JRPG overall (in it's current state).

3DS games/remakes:

*DQ7 is considered by some to be the black sheep of the franchise as it marked an end of DQ games coming in a trilogy, that shared a world and overarching themes and instead was the first truly standalone mainline title (iirc). DQ7 is a much more slow paced and methodical game that introduces more puzzle elements into the gameplay where the purpose is not to explore the world but to actually have a world to explore, as a result the early to mid game can be off-putting for some but the game does very much come through in the end imo. DQ7 is kinda an experimental JRPG that might appeal to some more than others.


*DQ8 was pretty much the most beginner friendly entry before DQ11 came out, keeping the traditional spirit of the franchise while introducing some much needed quality of a life improvements also this was the last mainline entry to have recruitable Monsters, so if you enjoyed that feature take full advantage of it here. DQ8 was also the first mainline entry to have voice acting which was a major deal back when it was originally released, so it may help with narrative immersion more also it has the among the most popular soundtracks in the franchise, an overall great JRPG.

How you feeling overall on what’s been proposed? You agree with the Mortamor thing? You agree on the frizz/sizz distinction?