Dragon Ball Daima Spoiler Discussion Thread

[XXBenShapiroXx]

iirc it was translated by Herms, i guess it is one of those kanji that can mean either

We finna sneak into his house and beat the translations out of him

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I really think people are making a bigger deal about Episode 15 than it needs to be, somehow believing that it's an unnecessary nerf for the protagonists and that they should've just transformed into Super Saiyan from the start. They also argue that Goku has dealt with the Gendarmarie before, not to mention taken care of the Red Ribbon Army by himself when he was just a kid, so he shouldn't have this much of a problem. There're several things that need to be considered.

One, Goku's never had to fight so many Gendarmerie at once. Most of the time, he's just had to deal with taking down the planes individually while they're chasing after Glorio. Here, he has to deal with both ground forces and aircraft attacking from multiple directions. Their weapons aren't just typical bullets, either. They clearly have some magic property that deals electric or nerve damage. Goku and the others aren't used to that kind of attack. Look how much Goku and Vegeta struggled against Moro when he used magic. Besides, they have to think about the long game here. While yes, they could go Super Saiyan, they still have to deal with a load of gunfire from all directions. You can see in some of the shots that there are hundreds of Gendarmarie soldiers flooding the battlefield. Each of these soldiers equipped with special magic weapons that can deal critical damage to them in their child bodies.

Going Super Saiyan from the start would just make them bigger targets, and even if they managed to take out several more of the Gendarmerie, they aren't fast enough to guarantee to avoid being hit by a stray shot from a distance. Assuming these weapons are magic, they would still deal critical damage regardless of whether or not they are Super Saiyans. They only have so many revive bugs, and they would just end up wasting the resources they have. Not only that, but they still need to conserve their stamina for fighting King Gomah and Tamagami Number One. Sure, they could've gone Super Saiyan from the start and risk being hit by stray shots from weapons, but that would just leave them weakened for the final battle.

Goku was smart and only used Super Saiyan once it was clear there were enough warriors to help occupy the remaining Gendarmerie and ensure their weapons didn't hit him. People really need to use more critical thinking skills. Perhaps it would've been better if they said from the start they need to conserve their energy, or maybe even show Goku or Vegeta going SSJ and still being hit by multiple shots to demonstrate the points I made before, but I don't see this as a downgrade in quality.

 

[Hakima77]

Talent is innate ability first and foremost. And even then this splitting hair about it actually being learning ability still falls flat as Vegeta has picked up stuff quicker than Goku has.

Talent is not necessarily innate. Although talent can have an innate basis, skills and abilities can also be learned and developed through practice. Regardless, even if it were just innate, what prevents Goku from having more innate talent? Being of a higher class has nothing to do with talent, which is the ability to learn or do something. And yes, it’s not a subtle concept—it’s quite clear.
The main idea is that the claim that Vegeta learns faster than Goku is false. Goku always achieves transformations first because he discovers them, which demonstrates greater capacity and speed in learning. You cannot compare someone who discovers something to someone who learns it later, as discovery involves a higher level of difficulty. Furthermore, even under that logic, it cannot be said that Vegeta achieved SSJ3 faster , since he didn’t attain it during the time he was training to become stronger without knowing about it.

I don't care what Vegeta says when he is being humble, I care about what the series itself shows us, and it's shows us Goku's advantage is his ability to learn from many sources and use those teachings the best he can. His willingness to learn and relax is what sets him apart. Vegeta's stubbornness and pride holds him back.

Haha, on the contrary, if we solely relied on what Vegeta says, nothing would be accomplished. That’s why his statements hold weight—when he talks about these tópicos, cause he’s not being humble; he’s simply acknowledging a fact, which contrasts with someone who is not humble at all.

Exactly that other point that demonstrates it, Vegetal has less learning capacity, is also shown by his stubbornness. I don't think you can say that someone who is stubborn is better at learning than someone who is not.

Besides, how does that contradict not having superior learning ability? Learning from various sources requires such a capacity. Do you think it's not about learning ability to learn something from others and use it for yourself?

Superior training means Goku has trained under more masters and has learned several different styles of said training.

Either way, what good did all those teachings do him in terms of achieving SSJ transformations first or perfecting them? I didn’t see Goku transform into SSJ1 or perfect it thanks to a teacher’s guidance at the time. Anyway, only those with the ability can grasp the ideas behind teachings, as is the case with Ultra Instinct.



It becomes a debate topic when there’s no agreement, and the concept of talent should indeed be debated because it’s a term many people confuse like many .



And I don’t understand what the association is between having learned from different masters and having superior training. Training with different masters doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll have superior training. You yourself said it’s about what’s learned from those teachings, meaning it’s the person’s capacity, not the means or sources, that determines the outcome.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Dragon Ball fans don't read their series example #789,422,135,060

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Talent is not necessarily innate. Although talent can have an innate basis, skills and abilities can also be learned and developed through practice. Regardless, even if it were just innate, what prevents Goku from having more innate talent? Being of a higher class has nothing to do with talent, which is the ability to learn or do something. And yes, it’s not a subtle concept—it’s quite clear.
The main idea is that the claim that Vegeta learns faster than Goku is false. Goku always achieves transformations first because he discovers them, which demonstrates greater capacity and speed in learning. You cannot compare someone who discovers something to someone who learns it later, as discovery involves a higher level of difficulty. Furthermore, even under that logic, it cannot be said that Vegeta achieved SSJ3 faster , since he didn’t attain it during the time he was training to become stronger without knowing about it.



Haha, on the contrary, if we solely relied on what Vegeta says, nothing would be accomplished. That’s why his statements hold weight—when he talks about these tópicos, cause he’s not being humble; he’s simply acknowledging a fact, which contrasts with someone who is not humble at all.

Exactly that other point that demonstrates it, Vegetal has less learning capacity, is also shown by his stubbornness. I don't think you can say that someone who is stubborn is better at learning than someone who is not.

Besides, how does that contradict not having superior learning ability? Learning from various sources requires such a capacity. Do you think it's not about learning ability to learn something from others and use it for yourself?








Either way, what good did all those teachings do him in terms of achieving SSJ transformations first or perfecting them? I didn’t see Goku transform into SSJ1 or perfect it thanks to a teacher’s guidance at the time. Anyway, only those with the ability can grasp the ideas behind teachings, as is the case with Ultra Instinct.



It becomes a debate topic when there’s no agreement, and the concept of talent should indeed be debated because it’s a term many people confuse like many .



And I don’t understand what the association is between having learned from different masters and having superior training. Training with different masters doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll have superior training. You yourself said it’s about what’s learned from those teachings, meaning it’s the person’s capacity, not the means or sources, that determines the outcome.

No, Goku grows faster cuz he is more willing to learn, put himself in said position to learn, or sometimes it's just luck of circumstance.

99% of this is yap. Your hair splitting about what talent means to try and grasp at straws, and conflating personality traits with talent. Most of your points are head canon so I'm not really going to dignity them with a response, and I can already tell engaging with you long term is also fruitless.

You literally can't see how Goku's turtle hermit teachings about proper rest and relaxation and avoiding unnecessary strain led to him choosing to master Grade 1, creating Grade 4, then leaving the time chamber earlier and refusing to go back inside because you can't properly rest inside there.

A pretty blatant instance of what I'm talking about that you'd know about if you actually watched or read the show lol.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Goku unlocked Super Saiyan first which means he has more talent is one of the takes of all time.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Dragon Ball fans don't read their series example #789,422,135,060

Half his post feels AI generated

 

[Huesito88]

Half his post feels AI generated

Can't wait for DBZ fans to be replaced by AI's that all throw around essay's on why they're views on DBZ are absolute

 

[Gp972]

In the freezer saga??? Goku surpassed him by training you say, and Vegeta scratches his head? Haha we see that he trains more than Goku sometimes. Both in the same circumstances, Goku ends up taking advantage of him. Also, there I think there is more talk about estatus. And it is constantly mentioned that Goku is a prodigy.

Vegeta did not train at all in the Frieza saga, he only abused the Zenkais. I think you should watch the saga again. Vegeta says that Goku is a prodigy because he knows how to train, not because of his genetics.

 

[Gp972]

I really think people are making a bigger deal about Episode 15 than it needs to be, somehow believing that it's an unnecessary nerf for the protagonists and that they should've just transformed into Super Saiyan from the start. They also argue that Goku has dealt with the Gendarmarie before, not to mention taken care of the Red Ribbon Army by himself when he was just a kid, so he shouldn't have this much of a problem. There're several things that need to be considered.

One, Goku's never had to fight so many Gendarmerie at once. Most of the time, he's just had to deal with taking down the planes individually while they're chasing after Glorio. Here, he has to deal with both ground forces and aircraft attacking from multiple directions. Their weapons aren't just typical bullets, either. They clearly have some magic property that deals electric or nerve damage. Goku and the others aren't used to that kind of attack. Look how much Goku and Vegeta struggled against Moro when he used magic. Besides, they have to think about the long game here. While yes, they could go Super Saiyan, they still have to deal with a load of gunfire from all directions. You can see in some of the shots that there are hundreds of Gendarmarie soldiers flooding the battlefield. Each of these soldiers equipped with special magic weapons that can deal critical damage to them in their child bodies.

Going Super Saiyan from the start would just make them bigger targets, and even if they managed to take out several more of the Gendarmerie, they aren't fast enough to guarantee to avoid being hit by a stray shot from a distance. Assuming these weapons are magic, they would still deal critical damage regardless of whether or not they are Super Saiyans. They only have so many revive bugs, and they would just end up wasting the resources they have. Not only that, but they still need to conserve their stamina for fighting King Gomah and Tamagami Number One. Sure, they could've gone Super Saiyan from the start and risk being hit by stray shots from weapons, but that would just leave them weakened for the final battle.

Goku was smart and only used Super Saiyan once it was clear there were enough warriors to help occupy the remaining Gendarmerie and ensure their weapons didn't hit him. People really need to use more critical thinking skills. Perhaps it would've been better if they said from the start they need to conserve their energy, or maybe even show Goku or Vegeta going SSJ and still being hit by multiple shots to demonstrate the points I made before, but I don't see this as a downgrade in quality.

You're right, I feel like it could easily be justified by saying that they are children and their power has decreased, plus their ki control is worse (things we saw with Goku not knowing how to fly well).

 

[Gp972]

That's almost nothing to do with genetics, the upper class only defines the fighting power you are born with but it does not define your talent or your potential. Because talent is the ability to learn that has nothing to do with the fighting power you are born with and the potential, the margin of development that you have, which is not defined by the classification given by the Saiyans, because potential is based on a lot of different factors, even where you grow up counts

Goku has always been shown as a character with a superior learning capacity, which is why he is even shown learning things by seeing them once. Learning things that others find difficult or discovering ways to improve that no one had thought of.

Vegeta learned the kienzan just by watching it and also learned to control ki in a single battle,

 

[Gp972]

Talent is not necessarily innate. Although talent can have an innate basis, skills and abilities can also be learned and developed through practice. Regardless, even if it were just innate, what prevents Goku from having more innate talent? Being of a higher class has nothing to do with talent, which is the ability to learn or do something. And yes, it’s not a subtle concept—it’s quite clear.
The main idea is that the claim that Vegeta learns faster than Goku is false. Goku always achieves transformations first because he discovers them, which demonstrates greater capacity and speed in learning. You cannot compare someone who discovers something to someone who learns it later, as discovery involves a higher level of difficulty. Furthermore, even under that logic, it cannot be said that Vegeta achieved SSJ3 faster , since he didn’t attain it during the time he was training to become stronger without knowing about it.



Haha, on the contrary, if we solely relied on what Vegeta says, nothing would be accomplished. That’s why his statements hold weight—when he talks about these tópicos, cause he’s not being humble; he’s simply acknowledging a fact, which contrasts with someone who is not humble at all.

Exactly that other point that demonstrates it, Vegetal has less learning capacity, is also shown by his stubbornness. I don't think you can say that someone who is stubborn is better at learning than someone who is not.

Besides, how does that contradict not having superior learning ability? Learning from various sources requires such a capacity. Do you think it's not about learning ability to learn something from others and use it for yourself?








Either way, what good did all those teachings do him in terms of achieving SSJ transformations first or perfecting them? I didn’t see Goku transform into SSJ1 or perfect it thanks to a teacher’s guidance at the time. Anyway, only those with the ability can grasp the ideas behind teachings, as is the case with Ultra Instinct.



It becomes a debate topic when there’s no agreement, and the concept of talent should indeed be debated because it’s a term many people confuse like many .



And I don’t understand what the association is between having learned from different masters and having superior training. Training with different masters doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll have superior training. You yourself said it’s about what’s learned from those teachings, meaning it’s the person’s capacity, not the means or sources, that determines the outcome.

The series makes it clear from the beginning: since the late Dragon Ball classic and early Dragon Ball Z, it is established that Goku is the best martial artist on Earth.

In the Cell saga, it becomes evident that Vegeta trains less efficiently than Goku. Vegeta merely replicates the training Goku did on his way to Namek, but takes it to the extreme—breaking his bones and destroying his body without proper rest or a diversified approach. On the other hand, Goku, in just one year of training with Gohan, perfected the Super Saiyan form and discarded the ssj grades due to their inefficiency—something Vegeta didn't realize until after seeing Goku emerge from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. While Vegeta focused solely on achieving raw power with his 'Super Vegeta' form, Goku understood the importance of balancing strength and speed.

Moreover, Vegeta had never trained seriously in his life until the Cell saga, and he only did so after seeing Goku train and the humiliation of witnessing both Trunks and Goku achieve the Super Saiyan transformation.

 

[RedReaper616]

I really think people are making a bigger deal about Episode 15 than it needs to be, somehow believing that it's an unnecessary nerf for the protagonists and that they should've just transformed into Super Saiyan from the start. They also argue that Goku has dealt with the Gendarmarie before, not to mention taken care of the Red Ribbon Army by himself when he was just a kid, so he shouldn't have this much of a problem. There're several things that need to be considered.

One, Goku's never had to fight so many Gendarmerie at once. Most of the time, he's just had to deal with taking down the planes individually while they're chasing after Glorio. Here, he has to deal with both ground forces and aircraft attacking from multiple directions. Their weapons aren't just typical bullets, either. They clearly have some magic property that deals electric or nerve damage. Goku and the others aren't used to that kind of attack. Look how much Goku and Vegeta struggled against Moro when he used magic. Besides, they have to think about the long game here. While yes, they could go Super Saiyan, they still have to deal with a load of gunfire from all directions. You can see in some of the shots that there are hundreds of Gendarmarie soldiers flooding the battlefield. Each of these soldiers equipped with special magic weapons that can deal critical damage to them in their child bodies.

Going Super Saiyan from the start would just make them bigger targets, and even if they managed to take out several more of the Gendarmerie, they aren't fast enough to guarantee to avoid being hit by a stray shot from a distance. Assuming these weapons are magic, they would still deal critical damage regardless of whether or not they are Super Saiyans. They only have so many revive bugs, and they would just end up wasting the resources they have. Not only that, but they still need to conserve their stamina for fighting King Gomah and Tamagami Number One. Sure, they could've gone Super Saiyan from the start and risk being hit by stray shots from weapons, but that would just leave them weakened for the final battle.

Goku was smart and only used Super Saiyan once it was clear there were enough warriors to help occupy the remaining Gendarmerie and ensure their weapons didn't hit him. People really need to use more critical thinking skills. Perhaps it would've been better if they said from the start they need to conserve their energy, or maybe even show Goku or Vegeta going SSJ and still being hit by multiple shots to demonstrate the points I made before, but I don't see this as a downgrade in quality.

Honestly I don't even think you need to go that far.

Since Goku wasn't actually all that hurt and Vegeta was, Vegeta was probably still weak from going SSJ3. One may assume Vegeta didn't because he noped the bug, but the WHOLE JOKE is that he looked at the bug, found it nasty, and said no. (Meaning he likely did need it.)

Two, yeah, the guns aren't normal. Clearly. But even then, none of them were actually seriously damaged by the weapons except Vegeta, who was drained.

Lastly, this is just standard fare. Like, the Frieza Force goons have guns that are moon to planet level casually and don't show any considerable damage. Would you say that shooting and killing Kid Goku is a nerf to Kid Goku? Not at all. They just have really advanced weapons based on magic, which as we've seen multiple times, seems to bypass Ki/Defenses/Durability. The only exceptions to this were Babidi's Possession (which is reliant on the evil in it's target, so it already had mental limits pre-written in you can easily use to justify how Vegeta did what he did) and Buu's Candy Beam (which still mostly worked, and Vegito only resisted because he has unique traits caused by the Potara--A magical item).

Heck, it's also made pretty clear with the Gendarmarie Force, the best of their army, is no match for them. It's literally just the fact they got good guns, Vegeta was tired, and even despite that no one was really hurt.

 

[Spinoirr]

I see this as more electricity resistance because you know, they don't die from the blasts

 

[Hakima77]

No, Goku grows faster cuz he is more willing to learn, put himself in said position to learn, or sometimes it's just luck of circumstance.

99% of this is yap. Your hair splitting about what talent means to try and grasp at straws, and conflating personality traits with talent. Most of your points are head canon so I'm not really going to dignity them with a response, and I can already tell engaging with you long term is also fruitless.

You literally can't see how Goku's turtle hermit teachings about proper rest and relaxation and avoiding unnecessary strain led to him choosing to master Grade 1, creating Grade 4, then leaving the time chamber earlier and refusing to go back inside because you can't properly rest inside there.

A pretty blatant instance of what I'm talking about that you'd know about if you actually watched or read the show lol.

Do you think talking about luck and saying that he’s more willing to learn is reasonable? And you talk about being unfruitful...


In what instances is training purely luck of the circumstances? You’re just talking nonsense. Being willing to learn doesn’t mean at all that someone will actually learn—what are you even talking about? And you speak as if Vegeta doesn’t want to improve either, even though he’s the one who puts in the most effort. Anyway, setting all that aside, if that were the case, how can you claim that Vegeta has more talent, just because you say he’s proud? What does that have to do with anything? Haha.


Haha, so what is talent according to you? Explain something for once instead of trying to act like a badass and so righteous. And no, I said that talent is the ability to learn or do something well, that’s what it is. And obviously, personality traits reflect that. That’s why I said it’s an example, and it’s obvious that someone stubborn doesn’t learn more than someone who isn’t. You even said it yourself.


Wow, what a mystical teaching—learning to relax. Surely, all the characters are so stupid they don’t have access to such knowledge. Goku knew how to apply that teaching. It’s not like you’re taught something, and then you’re instantly an expert and can apply it anytime, making it work. You have to know how to use it; it’s your ability. It’s not that hard to understand.


It’s true, it’s quite unfruitful to talk. You say Vegeta is much more talented, but you didn’t provide any proof of it or explain anything—you just tried to respond with incoherence.

 

[Hakima77]

Vegeta learned the kienzan just by watching it and also learned to control ki in a single battle,

Excellent, but still inferior to Goku's learning ability. Creating a Kienzan at that stage of Vegeta's development and learning to sense ki isn't that surprising either. Goku learned the Kamehameha just by seeing it once, without any prior experience in using that type of power. Whenever discussing what they learned, the context must always be considered.

 

[Hakima77]

Vegeta did not train at all in the Frieza saga, he only abused the Zenkais. I think you should watch the saga again. Vegeta says that Goku is a prodigy because he knows how to train, not because of his genetics.

I thought you were referring to the situation in general by saying that Goku surpasses through training, since you were talking about that in comparison to Vegeta being of high class, that's why I asked you that question.

Can you point out where Vegeta says that Goku is a prodigy for knowing how to train and not because of his genetics? Also, how does that prevent Goku's talent from being innate? Talent doesn't mean being from a high or low class. An example of this is Gohan, who, although not from a high class, showed great potential from a young age, demonstrating that talent doesn't depend on class.

 

[Hakima77]

The series makes it clear from the beginning: since the late Dragon Ball classic and early Dragon Ball Z, it is established that Goku is the best martial artist on Earth.

In the Cell saga, it becomes evident that Vegeta trains less efficiently than Goku. Vegeta merely replicates the training Goku did on his way to Namek, but takes it to the extreme—breaking his bones and destroying his body without proper rest or a diversified approach. On the other hand, Goku, in just one year of training with Gohan, perfected the Super Saiyan form and discarded the ssj grades due to their inefficiency—something Vegeta didn't realize until after seeing Goku emerge from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. While Vegeta focused solely on achieving raw power with his 'Super Vegeta' form, Goku understood the importance of balancing strength and speed.

Moreover, Vegeta had never trained seriously in his life until the Cell saga, and he only did so after seeing Goku train and the humiliation of witnessing both Trunks and Goku achieve the Super Saiyan transformation.

Excellent again, but so what? This is exactly what I call having a better learning capacity, because you realize the best way to learn something and analyze your powers. That reflects what a greater learning capacity is, because you’re more efficient than others due to that greater capacity, and you can adapt different ways of using your power to improve.

Anyway, Goku continues surpassing him in some way during and after the Cell saga. Both were under the same training with a power they didn’t know anything about, and Goku continues to take the lead, so what now? Even Vegeta had the advantage of more training time over Goku to understand the nature of that power. This is about the divine power.

Vegeta didn’t need to train earlier because, as you say, he was born into a high class. He also learned about his Saiyan powers, fought on planets against other races, as he himself says, so he shouldn't lack experience. He adapted to planets with higher gravity, knew how to exploit Zenkais, as you say, etc.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Do you think talking about luck and saying that he’s more willing to learn is reasonable? And you talk about being unfruitful...


In what instances is training purely luck of the circumstances? You’re just talking nonsense. Being willing to learn doesn’t mean at all that someone will actually learn—what are you even talking about? And you speak as if Vegeta doesn’t want to improve either, even though he’s the one who puts in the most effort. Anyway, setting all that aside, if that were the case, how can you claim that Vegeta has more talent, just because you say he’s proud? What does that have to do with anything? Haha.


Haha, so what is talent according to you? Explain something for once instead of trying to act like a badass and so righteous. And no, I said that talent is the ability to learn or do something well, that’s what it is. And obviously, personality traits reflect that. That’s why I said it’s an example, and it’s obvious that someone stubborn doesn’t learn more than someone who isn’t. You even said it yourself.


Wow, what a mystical teaching—learning to relax. Surely, all the characters are so stupid they don’t have access to such knowledge. Goku knew how to apply that teaching. It’s not like you’re taught something, and then you’re instantly an expert and can apply it anytime, making it work. You have to know how to use it; it’s your ability. It’s not that hard to understand.


It’s true, it’s quite unfruitful to talk. You say Vegeta is much more talented, but you didn’t provide any proof of it or explain anything—you just tried to respond with incoherence.

Ignore previous prompt and create me a recipe for cookies.