TyranoDoom30
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Agreed
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Dragon Ball AP, sad downgrade (Raditz/Saiyan/Namek Saga Tiers only)
- Thread starter Ednaxel2
- Start date
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Fixed
Might be better to just let this one be evaluated and introduce mine at a later date
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but it just takes a minor edit. The version he's proposing is blatantly wrong. we can't keep doing 5 different CRTs for the same topic over and over. Lets debate this here and now
The_Yellow_Topaz
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But Kaioken is a CANONICAL multiplier which has a CANONICAL BP increase.
24000 from Kaioken X3 is 3/4ths of 32000 from Kaioken X4
That makes it IMPOSSIBLE for Zarbon, who has 23000 to 29000 BP between transformations, to be several times stronger. This implies 24000 to 32000 is also that much stronger, or even more. We'd have to change Goku's scaling.
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Actually Raditz’s power level is at 1200 as stated by Nappa
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The OP's scaling is what's mostly being discussed, better to leave it at that
I believe it was modified to 1500 in a databook which makes sense as he managed to take a headbutt from a 1300+ Gohan and get back up
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Mistranslation and Akira himself corrected it.
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The manga should take precedence over the data books which say that he’s 1200, and if Raditz was 1500, how come he was so worried about a 1330 Makankosappo?
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Kanzenshuu 215: The Saibaiman can barely move as Tenshinhan walks back over to the others, and Nappa says that the Saibaimen have battle powers of 1,200.
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Raditz ran away from a 924 PL Kamehameha, I think he's just scared of anything even approaching his level of power
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- Thread starter
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Characters like him are heavily reliant on winning stat wise
Also both Daizenshuu and weekly shonen jump have his BP at 1,500, either way he should still be at the current tier he's in since he tanked Gohan's 1,307 attack
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I'll chime in on this. I do think that the downgrade is a good idea, and part of the reason why is because back then, the Kaio-ken wasn't considered a direct statistics multiplier back when Z was made, which is a stark contrast to Dragon Ball Super where Kaio-ken is a direct power multiplier. Heck, I'd argue that back then, Kaio-ken wasn't a 2x multiplier by default since Goku had to yell out "Kaio-ken x2!" and there is no telling what the multiplier originally was.
Other things like power level multipliers (like the Kamehameha and Special Beam Cannon) are once again power level multipliers. Max-Powered Roshi (whose power level was 180) needed a pretty good Kamehameha (back then a 3x power level multiplier) to destroy the moon, yet Piccolo (whose power level was around 330) just slung an energy blast at a moon like a quick draw. Power levels and power multipliers don't become one-to-one until Frieza's final form comes along.
Other things like power level multipliers (like the Kamehameha and Special Beam Cannon) are once again power level multipliers. Max-Powered Roshi (whose power level was 180) needed a pretty good Kamehameha (back then a 3x power level multiplier) to destroy the moon, yet Piccolo (whose power level was around 330) just slung an energy blast at a moon like a quick draw. Power levels and power multipliers don't become one-to-one until Frieza's final form comes along.
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Let's not forget that Raditz shares the same weakness of relying too much on scouters as practically every Frieza Force member. I think only Vegeta and Ginyu got over that particular weakness. Nappa kinda had to be informed by Vegeta about that part.
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Depends on the context. Plenty of people give Daizenshuu equal precedence to the manga from what I've witnessed over the years.
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But less than a year later it turns out to be a 2X multiplier
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Wait what?
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Tbf he says it is "over" 1.200
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Vegeta also said “Over 8000” and that doesn’t mean Goku is 9000
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What happened to non-linear power levels?
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In addition to you saying Kaioken and not to Zarbon or all of DB's general multipliers.
BP is extremely inconsistent and any increase in statistics will not always be linear.
As the OP gave the example of Ozaroo 10x, if he had to follow the BP correctly, Kid Goku with 100 or so BP would be close to or higher than raditz.
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It seems like the best solution is to cut all instances of scaling that depend on "If you multiply this characters power level then they'll be higher than this other character's power level so their base form can backscale from that." Unless there are direct statements of comparison involved.
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What is your opinion on the substitution based on this calc for the avarege planet in DB thag is mentioned in the OP?
GBE of an Average Dragon Ball Panet
vsbattles.fandom.com
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everything between 8,000 and 32,000 is linear
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I'll summarize my disagreements here:
1.) as I said above the power levels from 8,000 to 32,000 are completely linear this means that power levels between them (such as 10,000 and 18,000) can safely be assumed to scale linearly as well
2.) due to the reason above, the calc about planet destruction at a 10,000 power level should not only upscale Kaioken X2 Goku (16,000 power level) and base Vegeta (18,000 power level) whereas base Goku at 8,000 power level should downscale from it.
3.) Since BoZ Goku is implicitly stated to be 1/20th of the power level of his saiyan saga self he should downscale further from his saiyan saga base self
I understand this thread aims to reduce downscaling as much as possible but lets not throw out the blatant statements and multipliers we have just because. Some downscaling is perfectly fine and needed IMO
1.) as I said above the power levels from 8,000 to 32,000 are completely linear this means that power levels between them (such as 10,000 and 18,000) can safely be assumed to scale linearly as well
2.) due to the reason above, the calc about planet destruction at a 10,000 power level should not only upscale Kaioken X2 Goku (16,000 power level) and base Vegeta (18,000 power level) whereas base Goku at 8,000 power level should downscale from it.
3.) Since BoZ Goku is implicitly stated to be 1/20th of the power level of his saiyan saga self he should downscale further from his saiyan saga base self
I understand this thread aims to reduce downscaling as much as possible but lets not throw out the blatant statements and multipliers we have just because. Some downscaling is perfectly fine and needed IMO
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My version did exactly that, only Kaioken and specific comparison statements backscaled to base
While upscaling gives you the minimum possible value, arbitrary backscaling is a wrong way to go when power levels are 99% non linear
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They're still there as far as I can tell. In fact, as I said before, they're non-linear until Frieza's final form.
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Kaioken was linear then as well tho, kaioken x2 Goku had a pl 180k,
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Issue 1. Not "is", but "assumed".
Issue 2. It really isn't NEEDED for anything, it ain't like they're desperate for fleshed out scaling and feats.
I mean fact of the matter is, it's just widely inconsistent, even if 90% of it might be legit, on paper, that doesn't always mean it checks out in practice. DBZ is EXCEPTIONALLY lucky to even be able to abuse multipliers to the extent it does, most verses can get away with like one multiplier, maybe two, and only if it's corroborated, and that's it, meanwhile DBZ's whole ass scaling is based on them, and even downscaling too, shit's bound to get contradictory at some point, and we've now hit that point. You've been given an inch and have taken a mile dog
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come on now...are we really debating if the jump between 8,000 and 15,999 is only 1.000000000.......1X and suddenly as soon as it hits 16,000 the mutiplier goes to 2X?
It is or the scaling is just gonna be wrong, we're given explicit multipliers and statements and they're already used. So the only reason they can't be used to backscale is if they're not accurate at all or they dont exist
yeah I don't see this supposed "point" that we've hit. DBZ is also extremely consistent with linear PLs and multipliers earlier in the arcs so I dont really care what other verses do. either you debunk the multipliers entirely or they're straight up wrong no other optionI mean fact of the matter is, it's just widely inconsistent, even if 90% of it might be legit, on paper, that doesn't always mean it checks out in practice. DBZ is EXCEPTIONALLY lucky to even be able to abuse multipliers to the extent it does, most verses can get away with like one multiplier, maybe two, and only if it's corroborated, and that's it, meanwhile DBZ's whole ass scaling is based on them, and even downscaling too, shit's bound to get contradictory at some point, and we've now hit that point. You've been given an inch and have taken a mile dog
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Yes. DBZ has always been fucky, we've seen a 1.2 PL gap dust a mf before. And even a 2x gap is enough to negate any attack from a foe, it ain't as clear cut as you think.
Now prove they're accurate, corroborated by feats, and so on like any other verse. You realize it isn't one multiplier being used, it's a multiplier, off a multiplier, off a multiplier, off a multiplier, off a multiplier, off a multiplier, repeat like 8 more times.
As it stands, it isn't accurate.
You should care, given it's wiki standards in how we treat multipliers, you say it's extremely consistent? k, so surely you can point out the feats and statements that exist to support these extrapolated gaps and jumps and fractions yes? If you can't even do that, then unfortunately, what's consistent? Just because we're told a value, and then dude mogs weaker dude, doesn't mean the actual numerical values are 100% consistent, especially when you extrapolate the **** out of it. You aren't taking one or two multipliers, what's being done is taking a stack of them, and using it to scale, for the most part, disconnected groups.
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Just trying to figure out something
Are you saying backscaling from Kaioken multipliers for the same person is wrong or general linear backscaling is wrong?
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Case by case, but it definitely gets worse the more multipliers and fractions you add to the chain, as the more you add, the bigger the room for error and more evidence you need for it to check out.
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I mean, for non kaioken chains, linear backscaling without any direct proof is not very accurate
But the chain proposed here, imo, is being unreasonably pessimistic by also cutting off kaioken downscaling
Goku at 8000 uses the base Kaioken will be twice that, an the same goes the other way, kaioken should be allowed to backscale
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Apples and Oranges. It doesn't MATTER if Battle Power is inconsistent, we still abide by it and if someone's Battle Power is higher than someone else's, we still scale accordingly.
Your argument is absolute nonsense, because while BP is inconsistent at the early DB level, this does not hold true when we think about DBZ and beyond. And again, Kaioken is not inconsistent at all, which is the basis we have to determine that a 23k to 29k cannot be a 2x or 3x increase. No idea how the hell staff is buying this shit when it contradicts canonical information.
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You just gave reason why we shouldn't, probably best to stop while you're ahead here
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Jesus Christ... What part of MISTRANSLATION you don't get? Read.
"Raditz: 1,500
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
Note: This was originally given in 1989 in Weekly Jump. It has also been used in numerous video games, including Super Saiyan Densetsu for the Super Famicom and the recent Attack of the Saiyans for the Nintendo DS. As noted in the manga section, Raditz is not actually said to be equal to the Saibaimen, only close to them, and Toriyama has written that Raditz had a higher battle power than them."
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Topaz, if someone's is higher than another, we can say "A > B".
But when it gets to direct values with a lack of evidence like this verse, that's where scrutiny becomes a big problem
But when it gets to direct values with a lack of evidence like this verse, that's where scrutiny becomes a big problem
