Devil May Plot: Venturer to the Neverland

[RedReaper616]

Also, to reiterate, I disagree. Pan is specifically controlling the Dream and the World of Dreams.

Even if he’s controlling the NARRATIVE of that Dream, all that extends to is being a POWERFUL Dream Manipulator, NOT any form, shape, or ITERATION, of Plothax.

 

[Palito266]

Even if he’s controlling the NARRATIVE of that Dream, all that extends to is being a POWERFUL Dream Manipulator, NOT any form, shape, or ITERATION, of Plothax.

If you control a narrative, even if it's a dream one, it's still a narrative and is plot hax, albeit limited (though doesn't stop Dante from resisting it)

 

[RedReaper616]

If you control a narrative, even if it's a dream one, it's still a narrative and is plot hax, albeit limited (though doesn't stop Dante from resisting it)

Yes, but the Wiki recognizes that Dreamhax varies and can range into full reality control:

“…completely control the world of dreams as another plane of reality, toying with it and altering dreams according to their whims, with some even being capable of dragging others into the world of dreams to kill or imprison them within its boundaries.”

And even then, there’s no support of him directing the narrative here. All he does is admit he’s NOT the MC, and try to force people to do things they don’t want to (which Dreamhax can do).

 

[Palito266]

And even then, there’s no support of him directing the narrative here. All he does is admit he’s NOT the MC, and try to force people to do things they don’t want to (which Dreamhax can do).

Yet there's other metafictional aspects that confirm the existence of a plot inside the dream...

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

limited range (though doesn't stop Dante from resisting it)

ftfy

 

[RedReaper616]

Yet there's other metafictional aspects that confirm the existence of a plot inside the dream...

What metafictional aspects? Because I listed all he does (outside of “writing in his head,” which doesn’t give any actual metafictional reference outside of saying his powers are mental).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, after seeing some more back and forth, I'm fully disagreeing with plot hax as well.

 

[FeebasExE]

Actually him saying you have to follow his rules is meaningless. The context is about people not listening to him, it had nothing to do with Peter's power to control the world. You just took the word "rules" as a buzzword

Ahh, my bad. Law hax doesn't hold then. My stance on plot hax remains unchanged

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Nothing metafic here.

Calls staff.

 

[Palito266]

At the very least, all of the scans presented on this thread and the context would grant:

- Dream Manipulation
- Subjective Reality and Text Manipulation
- Reality Warping
- Law Manipulation

Ahh, my bad. Law hax doesn't hold then. My stance on plot hax remains unchanged

Nope, it's blatantly implied that Dante doesn't give a **** about the world's rules and just doesn't follow them, unlike everything else there.

 

[Fixxed]

Put me in neutral leaning to disagreement

I found some proof that can be a metafiction proof, but if i read that again it like just a word and not to be taken literally. Like the "main character's" proof, it seems like it just being use for describe that he is the "core" of that world, not literally a main character in some narrative

 

[Georredannea15]

At the very least, all of the scans presented on this thread and the context would grant:

- Dream Manipulation
- Subjective Reality and Text Manipulation
- Reality Warping
- Law Manipulation

Yeah, that's what I was proposing in the first place.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yeah, that's what I was proposing in the first place.

It is Plot hax anyways ;v

 

[Georredannea15]

It is Plot hax anyways ;v

Actually not all, plot hax contains a little more by default

 

[Palito266]

Bump.
Anyway methinks someone should call staff to review this thread when the time comes, i don't really know any of em' so can someone else please do it?

 

[Theglassman12]

reading through the scans, nothing here really indicates its plot hax, the most it goes is mention how he writes in privacy or how he's the main character, it doesn't get elaborated upon any further to have some meta context stuff that's needed for Plot hax to be legit, at best this looks like Law hax with some reality warping stuff.

 

[Random-Helper323]

reading through the scans, nothing here really indicates its plot hax, the most it goes is mention how he writes in privacy or how he's the main character, it doesn't get elaborated upon any further to have some meta context stuff that's needed for Plot hax to be legit, at best this looks like Law hax with some reality warping stuff.

I don't know about plot hax, but I think you're being a bit harsh implying it's nothing, when it's plainly stated that everyone is forced to abide by his rules, and he clearly warped people's clothes.

 

[Palito266]

reading through the scans, nothing here really indicates its plot hax, the most it goes is mention how he writes in privacy or how he's the main character, it doesn't get elaborated upon any further to have some meta context stuff that's needed for Plot hax to be legit, at best this looks like Law hax with some reality warping stuff.

And about Text Hax?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Random-Helper323 Did you read what I said? I said nothing here looks like plot hax, and that it’s reality warping and law hax, not that it’s literally nothing.

@Palito266 is it stemmed from the “writes in his mind” part? That needs more elaboration, without any elaboration that sounds like subjective reality at best.

 

[Palito266]

@Palito266 is it stemmed from the “writes in his mind” part? That needs more elaboration, without any elaboration that sounds like subjective reality at best.

It's also said that he's allowed to reign in the world thanks to what's inside of his head, and in the other translation is implied that he writes inside his head. But i have a hitch about this since these are things said by both translations, and only one of these is present on each translation.

 

[Theglassman12]

that still sounds like subjective reality to me.

 

[Random-Helper323]

@Random-Helper323 Did you read what I said? I said nothing here looks like plot hax, and that it’s reality warping and law hax, not that it’s literally nothing.

You said it's law and reality warping "at best", implying it's less than that, which in this case implies nothing. And now you're saying it's subjective reality, which seems to suggest not even law hax or reality warping.

You are a staff member, so the implications of your wording can heavily impact outcomes. You are surely aware that some highly powerful staff on this Wiki tend to literally only read the comments from staff and only pretend to read what normal members have to say. After the major DMC revisions in the past, you should be, given that it happened a lot of times throughout those revisions.

 

[RedReaper616]

You said it'slaw and reality warping "at best", implying it's less than that, which in this case implies nothing. You are a staff member, so the implications of your wording can heavily impact outcomes. You are aware that some highly powerful staff on this Wiki tend to literally only read the comments from staff and only pretend to read what normal members have to say, right? After the major DMC revisions in the past, you should be, given that it happened a lot of times throughout those revisions.

Sure, but fearmongering is no excuse to give it a superior rating than it actually deserves. Besides, he likely only said that because it’s just high end dream hax, which the Wiki treats as “reality warping,” (as in, not actual reality warping and instead high end dream control) of the dream world, able to bend it to their whims.

Which is exactly what Pan is doing.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Sure, but fearmongering is no excuse to give it a superior rating than it actually deserves. Besides, he likely only said that because it’s just high end dream hax.

I'm not arguing for plot hax, I'm saying that everyone being forced to follow his rules and someone's clothes altered is clearly law manipulation and some form of warping. Implying it's nothing isn't good. And yeah, having literally been cyber-bullied off the Wiki by a staff member in the past, maybe I have some leftover distrust of staff, and I am aware it isn't Glassman's fault.

Look, all I was saying is that suggesting it's those two things at best is basically implying it's not anything at all.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Sure, but fearmongering is no excuse to give it a superior rating than it actually deserves.

Not fearmongering, just a bit touchy. It's something I still need to work on. I'll relax.

Besides, he likely only said that because it’s just high end dream hax, which the Wiki treats as “reality warping,” (as in, not actual reality warping and instead high end dream control) of the dream world, able to bend it to their whims.

Which is exactly what Pan is doing.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference in regards to resisting it.

Also, I'd like to point out, that if you're arguing that it's essentially just lucid dreaming under the influence of some funny substances, then my earlier wording of it being disregarded as nothing kind of rings true.

 

[chosen]

Following to see the madnesx

 

[RedReaper616]

Not fearmongering, just a bit touchy. It's something I still need to work on. I'll relax.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference in regards to resisting it.

Also, I'd like to point out, that if you're arguing that it's essentially just lucid dreaming under the influence of some funny substances, then my earlier wording of it being disregarded as nothing kind of rings true.

No? Somehow me acknowledging it as just dreamhax seems to create this illusion that I’m not calling it a powerful manipulation of that reality—But that’s exactly what I’m doing when I call it high end dream hax.

To quote the Wiki:

“The greatest users of this power {Dream Manipulation} can completely control the world of dreams as another plane of reality,”

As in, reality warping…

“..toying with it and altering dreams according to their whims,”

…Subjective reality…

“…with some even being capable of dragging others into the world of dreams to kill or imprison them within its boundaries.”

…Or killing/BFR/Imprisonment/Forced Sleep (plus, obviously, more.)

All of these describe various things Pan does—So while YES, he is using it to warp the world…even assuming this is the PLOT of the dream world (of which there’s no proof)...this doesn’t give Pan Plot manip. Just high end dream powers, controlling the flow of the dream’s story.

If he’s warping reality in the dream, by definition he’s not a legitimate reality warper—He’s only using supreme control/authority over the World of Dreams to alter the world as if he is warping reality.

And while he does do this mentally, this isn’t him altering literal reality—It’s him altering the Dream to his whims.

Also note, considering he was trapping kids to kill and eat them, he also can totally use his dreams to unalive them.

It’s not me down talking it to being Lucid Dreaming—That’d be like calling Freddy Kruger nothing more than a Lucid Dreamer.

It’s me acknowledging the mechanics of his ability and giving it the correct label based on the Wiki and how it’s treated in story.

Pan’s powers are specifically high end dream manipulation. It allows him to achieve various effects in that dream world, but it’s still Dream manipulation none the less.

 

[Random-Helper323]

No? Somehow me acknowledging it as just dreamhax seems to create this illusion that I’m not calling it a powerful manipulation of that reality—But that’s exactly what I’m doing when I call it high end dream hax.

To quote the Wiki:

“The greatest users of this power {Dream Manipulation} can completely control the world of dreams as another plane of reality,”

As in, reality warping…

“..toying with it and altering dreams according to their whims,”

…Subjective reality…

“…with some even being capable of dragging others into the world of dreams to kill or imprison them within its boundaries.”

…Or killing/BFR/Imprisonment/Forced Sleep (plus, obviously, more.)

All of these describe various things Pan does—So while YES, he is using it to warp the world…even assuming this is the PLOT of the dream world (of which there’s no proof)...this doesn’t give Pan Plot manip. Just high end dream powers, controlling the flow of the dream’s story.

If he’s warping reality in the dream, by definition he’s not a legitimate reality warper—He’s only using supreme control/authority over the World of Dreams to alter the world as if he is warping reality.

And while he does do this mentally, this isn’t him altering literal reality—It’s him altering the Dream to his whims.

Also note, considering he was trapping kids to kill and eat them, he also can totally use his dreams to unalive them.

It’s not me down talking it to being Lucid Dreaming—That’d be like calling Freddy Kruger nothing more than a Lucid Dreamer.

It’s me acknowledging the mechanics of his ability and giving it the correct label based on the Wiki and how it’s treated in story.

Pan’s powers are specifically high end dream manipulation. It allows him to achieve various effects in that dream world, but it’s still Dream manipulation none the less.

I meant a distinction without a difference compared to reality warping, not plot manipulation, and only in regards to resisting it.

And honestly, a lucid dreamer and astral projector is exactly what Freddy Krueger is, in a manner of speaking. A lucid dreamer can control their dream, and he just does the same with his own and other people's.

 

[FeebasExE]

I didn't read the full story earlier.My bad

It's Dream Manipulation and resistances to dream manipulation.

There's no subjective reality because he's not manipulating the boundary between dreams and reality. They're all asleep

Everything that Peter says he says as someone who can control dreams. No law hax or plot. He's just controlling a dream which a ton of characters on the wiki can do far better and no one decided to use the highest interpretation and go with plot hax or law

Gengar about to end Peter Pan's career by using Dream Eater

 

[Random-Helper323]

I didn't read the full story earlier.My bad

It's Dream Manipulation and resistances to dream manipulation.

There's no subjective reality because he's not manipulating the boundary between dreams and reality. They're all asleep

Everything that Peter says he says as someone who can control dreams. No law hax or plot. He's just controlling a dream which a ton of characters on the wiki can do far better and no one decided to use the highest interpretation and go with plot hax or law

We all know Pan might as well just be some old bald pervert dreaming about all the things he wants to do to kids and make them do for him. Still, Dante was able to enter without sleeping and ignore all the rules of the dream world. It's the resisting process that people are looking at here, not the weird guy and his fetishes. Anyway, let's see what anyone else has to say about this interaction between a terrifyingly typical rich turd and the arresting officer Pan and Dante.

 

[FeebasExE]

So resistance to dream manipulation.

Basically what I said.

 

[Random-Helper323]

So resistance to dream manipulation.

Basically what I said.

Seems kind of similar to resistance to reality warping. I'd also need to check what suggests it's a dimension and what suggests it's just a pervert's wet dream.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Random-Helper323 stop putting words into my mouth, I didn’t say it’s nothing, otherwise I would’ve said it’s literally nothing as opposed to it being Reality warping and law hax.

 

[Random-Helper323]

@Random-Helper323 stop putting words into my mouth, I didn’t say it’s nothing, otherwise I would’ve said it’s literally nothing as opposed to it being Reality warping and law hax.

That's fine. And yeah, I apologise for getting snappy. I have some left over issues with dishonesty and abuse from authority figures, but it's not even remotely your fault; you didn't do it. I sincerely apologise for that momentary lapse of judgement. I still need to work on my trust issues, obviously. I hope we can move past it.

Law hax and reality warping is fine. Some others were arguing it's basically nothing. Someone even implied it was just intimidation.