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Devil May Plot: Venturer to the Neverland

Palito266

Palito266

He/Him
236
147
Welcome to this thread that was unexpected by all of you! I'm here to give the DMC Cast Resistance to Plot Hax, as well as Plot Hax to a very unknown character, even amongst the DMC Fandom.
Let's start shall we?
This thread will be about the DMC CD Drama, specifically the second one where Dante travels to the Neverland to fight against Peter Pan (i know, it sounds funny) and rescue some kids from the orphanage, one of which is Patty.


But... Is it even canon?


First of all, they're written by Bingo Morihashi, same guy who wrote Deadly Fortune novels as well as DMC 2, 3 and 5. It's important to note that characters only exclusive to the anime also appear here, acting as some sort of "follow-up" to the anime, and answering various questions from the fandom like Dante and Trish's possible Oedipus Complex thing going on, or if Dante sells his weapons.
Further more, we already have the CD Dramas listed in the Devil May Cry as canon, so i shouldn't extend myself into this section either way.


Plot Hax Argument


Resistance to Plot Manipulation: Peter Pan was unable to make Dante move as he wants and obey his rules, being for Dante, someone weaker than a low rank demon and being able to get out of his character. Peter Pan is able to control his world, imagining everything that happens and being the owner of it and being the main character of it, granting any wish to the people of that place and can change the attitude of other background characters such as animals, changing the rules of the world as well as having a place in his mind where he can "write". He can impose a role on other people, like Dante, by putting him in certain clothes as soon as he enters the Dream World.

Resistance to Sealing (Plot-Based): Dante was able to enter Peter Pan's kingdom without permission, and it is not possible to enter or leave this kingdom.


Why two translations?


First of all and if you're observative, you might've seen that the English Translation isn't at all that great, and has some major mistakes on grammar and continuity, some points going "nowhere" and others not making sense at that. The Spanish Translation makes more sense and is better all together, and it is also said to be a commission toward a Native Japanese Person, as well as it being made by a popular youtuber (as you can see at the start of the spanish document), Kalina Ann, whose entire channel is based around DMC.
Thing is, the English translation and Spanish translation both have differences, the English translation also mentions the actions of the character and what they're thinking, like a novel, but the spanish translation only covers what they're saying. This is why i decided to use both, but the same result for Plot Hax should be achieved if you use only one.


Isn't that just Dream Hax?


The context of Peter Pan's ability goes beyond of just normal Dream Hax and seems to function very differently.
First of all, not only is he stated to be able to make people "move as he wishes", but he's able to change the rules of his world, be the main character, write stuff in his mind and change the attitude of background characters. Now isn't familiar? Let's check Plot Manipulation's possible uses:
  • Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
  • Users may be able transform things into other things by altering their description in the plot.
  • Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.
  • Users may be able to control the action and/or thoughts of others by writing what they do or think into the plot.
  • Users may create things by writing that they are present into the plot.
  • Users may erase things by erasing any mention of them from the plot.
Those three bolded possible uses seem to fit perfectly in the context of how Peter Pan uses his ability in the Dream World, now, either this is an EXTREMELY EXTREMELY Advanced Dream Hax + Some other abilities, or it should be enough to fit in the description of Plot Manipulation, the latter being the most likely.
Further more, there's the fact that multiple meta-fictional aspects appear as in the form of:
So not only is he able to control the plot, but he's writing it on his head, while being the main character of it and functioning similarly to Plot Hax


Where can i read the CD Dramas?


The Spanish Version can be found here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/16SaJ4vWKthzCVaGbTfPCncQt-RwobMEL/view?fbclid=IwAR1CVTg5VoaBD_beFB9VawQLSfxvr_Jz69sOnUcE7j8pTYeq4T94r5pp2Dw
While the English Version can be seen here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IVlfTLX0KlaiuNDjGV1lYCHTr9MUwKtZ/view
The RAWs in Japanese can be downloaded here as well: https://originaldmc.github.io/DivinityStatue/Downloads.html (just go down a little, it's in the Miscellaneous section)


Tally

Agree: @GilverTheProtoAngelo, @Tanin_iver, @Robo432343 (To a possibly rating), @Asdtgh @Oliver_de_jesus
Disagree: @Georredannea15, @FeebasExE,@Rakih_Elyan, @RedReaper, @Hypertornado099, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
Neutral: @Galens (Leaning to agree), @Fixxed (Leaning to disagree)
 
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Frankly, I have no idea how this a Plot hax. This is more like text manipulation and subjective reality via text manipulation.


In other words, being able to create, change and manipulate something by writing something. Yes, it looks more like reality warping or subjective reality via text manipulation than plot hax.( Can manipulate rules, reality, history and other things via text manipulation. Yes, I'm sure now.)
 
Georredannea15 said:
Frankly, I have no idea how this a Plot hax. This is more like text manipulation and subjective reality via text manipulation.


In other words, being able to create, change and manipulate something by writing something. Yes, it looks more like reality warping or subjective reality via text manipulation than plot hax.
Click to expand...
I dunno why would this be Text Manipulation out of all the hax's there are, but okay.
The thing is, i think it is Plot Manip because the context of the ability seems to fit the possible uses of Plot Manip (Creating and controlling the world and it's rules, being the main character, changing other characters and their role in the Neverland)
 
Palito266 said:
I dunno why would this be Text Manipulation out of all the hax's there are, but okay.
The thing is, i think it is Plot Manip because the context of the ability seems to fit the possible uses of Plot Manip (Creating and controlling the world and it's rules, being the main character, changing other characters and their role in the Neverland)
Click to expand...
The reason I say text manipulation is because all of this is done through text manipulation.

Other than that, what he does seems more like subjective reality or reality warping than a plot hax. And it does this through text manipulation.


Everything12 had an article about this subject, but I don't remember which thread it was in.


So... considering the two options, instead of text manip and plot hax, it looks like text manip and subjective reality(or reality warping)

The reason for this is that he turns his subjective wishes into reality through text.
 
Honestly I just don't think the context for this being plot hax is as strong as I'd like, but I think a possibly rating works? I don't have much to add tbh, although I do disagree with it just being text manipulation.
 
Even if the Plot Hax doesn't get accepted or something, this at least would be a lot of resistances for granted lol.
 
Palito266 said:
Most Plot Manipulation users write changes to reality or reality itself, i dunno why that's an issue.
Click to expand...
It's different in context. This is more about writing every possible story and scenario than manipulating and changing things the way you want(permanently from start to finish.) Changing and manipulating the things in a verse as you wish is a reality warping or subjective reality ,but writing a story from start to finish (all of story) with your own script is different.( It's plot hax)


The situation here therefore looks more like subjective reality than plot manipulation.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Honestly I just don't think the context for this being plot hax is as strong as I'd like, but I think a possibly rating works? I don't have much to add tbh, although I do disagree with it just being text manipulation.
Click to expand...
No, there is not just text manipulation here. Don't worry, I didn't say it's the only one I have, so there's nothing to worry about.

As for the resistance, it also seems healthier and more prioritized than plot hax.
 
Georredannea15 said:
It's different in context. This is more about writing every possible story and scenario than manipulating and changing things the way you want(permanently from start to finish.) Changing and manipulating the things in a verse as you wish is a reality warping or subjective reality ,but writing a story from start to finish (all of story) with your own script is different.( It's plot hax)
Click to expand...
...Wait, are you implying that plot hax is only valid if it spans the entire narrative all at once?

Georredannea15 said:
No, there is not just text manipulation here. Don't worry, I didn't say it's the only one I have, so there's nothing to worry about.
Click to expand...
I'm just not seeing text manipulation being a thing at all lol
 
Georredannea15 said:
It's different in context. This is more about writing every possible story and scenario than manipulating and changing things the way you want(permanently from start to finish.) Changing and manipulating the things in a verse as you wish is a reality warping or subjective reality ,but writing a story from start to finish (all of story) with your own script is different.( It's plot hax)


The situation here therefore looks more like subjective reality than plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
You don't need to manipulate a whole narrative to be able to qualify for Plot Hax.
BTW, i do not think it's Subjective Reality, it literally says he's able to make others move as he wishes, change the rules of the world, be the main character and create other worlds like Neverland.
 
I don't know much about plot hax, but given that the demon sets not only the rules of the world I create, but also the role of each person and certain events, I might consider remaining "neutral" to agree with the argument.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
...Wait, are you implying that plot hax is only valid if it spans the entire narrative all at once?
Click to expand...
yeah( Not always, but usually like this)
Palito266 said:
You don't need to manipulate a whole narrative to be able to qualify for Plot Hax.
BTW, i do not think it's Subjective Reality, it literally says he's able to make others move as he wishes, change the rules of the world, be the main character and create other worlds like Neverland.
Click to expand...
Let me explain with an example.


Let's say we have people X and Y, X is writing a book from beginning to end with the script and story he wants, while Y manages only a single page contained in the book or only a certain path contained in it. In this case, character X has the right to the plot, and character Y has the right to subjective reality, because he changes only the current part of the story contained in this verse (or book) at will.


It is similar to the difference between a screenwriter who writes the story and script of a film from beginning to end the way he wants, and a director who Decrees the actors and other things in the film the way he wants

I likened the situation here a bit to this.
 
Georredannea15 said:
yeah( Not always, but usually like this)

Let me explain with an example.


Let's say we have people X and Y, X is writing a book from beginning to end with the script and story he wants, while Y manages only a single page contained in the book or only a certain path contained in it. In this case, character X has the right to the plot, and character Y has the right to subjective reality, because he changes only the current part of the story contained in this verse (or book) at will.


It is similar to the difference between a screenwriter who writes the story and script of a film from beginning to end the way he wants, and a director who Decrees the actors and other things in the film the way he wants
Click to expand...
Both seem like Plot Hax to me, but it still wouldn't apply to Peter Pan's case since he's stated to create worlds like these and being the owner of these.
 
Palito266 said:
Both seem like Plot Hax to me, but it still wouldn't apply to Peter Pan's case since he's stated to create worlds like these and being the owner of these.
Click to expand...
Actually, it's just that someone is plotting against hax. But as for the other situation, I don't think it's a conspiracy manipulation, I saw more in the operation. It's more like controlling the specific thing you have than writing the whole Story and the script the way you want it.


But if you necessarily think it's Plot hax, I think something like "limited plot manip" or "possibly plot manip" or "possibly limited plot manip" would be healthier here, man
 
Yes, after rereading the scans, he says that he only checks the rules and those who follow the rules(a person, an object or whatever) in his reality as he wants.

He's not talking about changing the course of the story and the story itself. Yes, I'm sure that's not a plot hax, but I'll read it again to see if there's anything I missed
 
Georredannea15 said:
yeah( Not always, but usually like this)

Let me explain with an example.


Let's say we have people X and Y, X is writing a book from beginning to end with the script and story he wants, while Y manages only a single page contained in the book or only a certain path contained in it. In this case, character X has the right to the plot, and character Y has the right to subjective reality, because he changes only the current part of the story contained in this verse (or book) at will.


It is similar to the difference between a screenwriter who writes the story and script of a film from beginning to end the way he wants, and a director who Decrees the actors and other things in the film the way he wants

I likened the situation here a bit to this.
Click to expand...
They're both plot hax, you're basing your disagreement on a standard that doesn't exist.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Actually, it's just that someone is plotting against hax. But as for the other situation, I don't think it's a conspiracy manipulation, I saw more in the operation. It's more like controlling the specific thing you have than writing the whole Story and the script the way you want it.


But if you necessarily think it's Plot hax, I think something like "limited plot manip" or "possibly plot manip" or "possibly limited plot manip" would be healthier here, man
Click to expand...
Would be nice if you checked Spanish Scans now since they're fully translated.
Anyway, my insight is still standing, you can see that Peter Pan's powers affect not only the rules of his world, but the world itself, being the main character of the Land of Nevermore as well as controlling the roles of the characters, how they move. Furthermore, the world he created is made by his own Demon Power and he can control it inside his head, being his head the place where he "writes" stuff.
 
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
They're both plot hax, you're basing your disagreement on a standard that doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
We have some things called limited plot manipulation and subjective reality and more... The reason they happen is because of situations like this.
Palito266 said:
Would be nice if you checked Spanish Scans now since they're fully translated.
Anyway, my insight is still standing, you can see that Peter Pan's powers affect not only the rules of his world, but the world itself, being the main character of the Land of Nevermore as well as controlling the roles of the characters, how they move. Furthermore, the world he created is made by his own Demon Power and he can control it inside his head, being his head the place where he "writes" stuff.
Click to expand...
I don't think that this still controls the whole story and the course of the story, seems just the rules and everything that depends on the rules.

I think it's "possibly limited plot manipulation" at best.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I don't think that this still controls the whole story and the course of the story, seems just the rules and everything that depends on the rules.

I think it's "possibly limited plot manipulation" at best.
Click to expand...
It's literally just him writing stuff in his head to control the world as well as it's laws and how everyone and everything acts and moves, i don't think it can get more blatant than this.
 
Palito266 said:
It's literally just him writing stuff in his head to control the world as well as it's laws and how everyone and everything acts and moves, i don't think it can get more blatant than this.
Click to expand...
I don't think that this still controls the whole story and the course of the story, seems just the rules and everything that "depends on the rules".
Click to expand...
 
Georredannea15 said:
We have some things called limited plot manipulation and subjective reality and more... The reason they happen is because of situations like this.

I don't think that this still controls the whole story and the course of the story, seems just the rules and everything that depends on the rules.
Click to expand...
Right, so it's still manipulating the plot. So it;s still plot manipulation; You can't deny it on the basis of not rewriting the entire story at the same time (otherwise, I don't think anybody would get plot hax).

Do characters who have RW without universal range only get "limited reality warping"? Think about this for a second.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Right, so it's still manipulating the plot. So it;s still plot manipulation; You can't deny it on the basis of not rewriting the entire story at the same time (otherwise, I don't think anybody would get plot hax).
Click to expand...
Subjective reality and others are not plot hax. The most important thing that distinguishes the two from each other is that in Plot hax you are just like a screenwriter. It is that you can control the course of the story and the story in any way you want.
Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories,
Click to expand...
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Do characters who have RW without universal range only get "limited reality warping"? Think about this for a second.
Click to expand...
If you change the entire story and scenario (or reality) of a certain or spesicif reality", it will be limited yes.
 
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Palito266 said:
Welcome to this thread that was unexpected by all of you! I'm here to give the DMC Cast Resistance to Plot Hax, as well as Plot Hax to a very unknown character, even amongst the DMC Fandom.
Click to expand...
Indeed it was, and I couldn't control my excitement after learning of it. As you already know, I agree.

Also, another thing I'd like to point out that it may qualify for another use case of Plot Manip, that being:
Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
 
Weird you brought plot hax possible uses to justify it not being dream hax because you can replicate all that without the plot hax.

The key here is whether the feats are happening on a metafictional level, and to prove that you need strong metafictional elements within the fiction. I'm not seeing any of that here.

I stand in disagreement with this proposal.
 
FeebasExE said:
Weird you brought plot hax possible uses to justify it not being dream hax because you can replicate all that without the plot hax.

The key here is whether the feats are happening on a metafictional level, and to prove that you need strong metafictional elements within the fiction. I'm not seeing any of that here.

I stand in disagreement with this proposal.
Click to expand...
He writes everything in his head and makes it to the world but sure ig
 
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