Devil May Plot: Venturer to the Neverland

[Palito266]

Anyway, if more metafictional aspects or context needs to be shared, i'll gladly provide those.

• Peter Pan is able to control his world inside of his head, which is the same place where he writes.
• Upon entering the Dream World, Dante's clothes get automatically changed to that of Captain Hook, which is implied to be Peter Pan's doing.
• Multiple possible uses for Plot Manip are fulfilled, as explained in the thread.
• Dante can go "out of character", and we know this is more than him simply acting normally because other animals and living beings get affected by Peter Pan's power, he's also stated to make Dante "unable to move as he wishes".
• Peter Pan is said to be the main character of the Neverland and everything should go according to what he says.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I still don't see the metafictional aspect here eh?

Still feel like a reality warping than plot manip.

Disagree.

 

[Palito266]

I still don't see the metafictional aspect here eh?

Still feel like a reality warping than plot manip.

Disagree.

He writes stuff into reality and fulfills the possible uses of Plot Manip, that should already be enough.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

He writes stuff into reality and fulfills the possible uses of Plot Manip, that should already be enough.

You see, the thing is -plot manipulation directly interacts with the plot itself. What you listed above are the possible uses of plot manip.

Not the requirement.

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality.

What is a plot? Here is the description of plot by our wiki.

the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional.

The thing is, peter is not interacting with a plot or story or any metafictional equivalent.

Peter interacted with his dream world via writing with his brain, he altered the law of the world, determining ones fate.

So tldr.

Peter is writing into the world, not to plot. Peter is not touching plot.

 

[Palito266]

You see, the thing is -plot manipulation directly interacts with the plot itself. What you listed above are the possible uses of plot manip.

Not the requirement.



What is a plot? Here is the description of plot by our wiki.


The thing is, peter is not interacting with a plot or story or any metafictional equivalent.

Peter interacted with his dream world via writing with his brain, he altered the law of the world, determining ones fate.

So tldr.

Peter is writing into the world, not to plot. Peter is not touching plot.

This is funny, because other characters with Plot Hax such as Emperor Joker or Castlevania seem to (correct me here since i don't know much about these characters) have Plot Hax because of the same reason for Peter, even less actually.
Dreams and other unconscious aspects in DMC are said to be transcendental and metaphysical, so there's also context for the world on which Peter is applying the changes. Thus, wouldn't it be Text Manipulation within your proposal?

 

[Robo432343]

yeah ngl emperor joker has the same shit

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

This is funny, because other characters with Plot Hax such as Emperor Joker or Castlevania seem to (correct me here since i don't know much about these characters) have Plot Hax because of the same reason for Peter, even less actually.
Dreams and other unconscious aspects in DMC are said to be transcendental and metaphysical, so there's also context for the world on which Peter is applying the changes. Thus, wouldn't it be Text Manipulation within your proposal?

Emperor Joker plot manip is outdated.

And shit you not, Castlevania plot manip into a story of an individual -thus changing their narrative.

Scan for dream to be transcendental.

 

[Sevil Natas]

i just want to say. if this gets accepted, characters like vergil & nero should also get the resistance, because 1-this is an innate resistance and thus should be shared with all holders of sparda blood. 2- dante refers to this as "weak demonic power". and since DMC demons have a universal energy system. higher tier demons should resist it as they use the exact same energy peter pan is using to manipulate his world. if that makes sense

 

[Palito266]

Emperor Joker plot manip is outdated.

And shit you not, Castlevania plot manip into a story of an individual -thus changing their narrative.

Scan for dream to be transcendental.

Sure. Sargasso's exist in dreams, and in this state they're said to be "transcendental" and cannot be attacked, these dreams/nightmares have no form and coexist with memories in the same realm. alongside this, you have other unconscious aspects like memories being stated as metaphysical.
Further more, unconscious aspects like desires are capable of changing reality, like how Credo envisioned his death to be, how demons mutate their physical form. It can also be said to be the source of power of the verse from where all da demon juice comes from.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

i just want to say. if this gets accepted, characters like vergil & nero should also get the resistance, because 1-this is an innate resistance and thus should be shared with all holders of sparda blood. 2- dante refers to this as "weak demonic power". and since DMC demons have a universal energy system. higher tier demons should resist it as they use the exact same energy peter pan is using to manipulate his world. if that makes sense

Where is it stated that it's an innate resistance?

Also, I really don't think there's any precedent for "stronger UES users can resist whatever weaker UES users do", unless DMC explicitly confirms that to be the case?

EDIT: To be clear I think only Dante would get the resistance, nobody else should scale. That's not how resistances work.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Sure. Sargasso's exist in dreams, and in this state they're said to be "transcendental" and cannot be attacked, these dreams/nightmares have no form and coexist with memories in the same realm. alongside this, you have other unconscious aspects like memories being stated as metaphysical.
Further more, unconscious aspects like desires are capable of changing reality, like how Credo envisioned his death to be, how demons mutate their physical form. It can also be said to be the source of power of the verse from where all da demon juice comes from.

No plot, story and narrative-changing abilities tho.

So still not qualify for plot manip. I only see subjective reality and reality warping tho.

 

[Palito266]

No plot, story and narrative-changing abilities tho.

So still not qualify for plot manip.

You haven't answered the question i asked previously, though.
Making the effects of Plot Manip via writing and also changing the placing of the characters in his world already strongly implies a Plot Manip, or Text Manip.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Making the effects of Plot Manip via writing and also changing the placing of the characters in his world already strongly implies a Plot Manip, or Text Manip.

It is not if its lack mention of plot or narrative interaction, it just reality warping via text manip.

He is interacting with the world, not the narrative or the plot.

You can ask a staff for sure tho.

I'm going to sleep, tomorrow work.

 

[Palito266]

It is not if its lack mention of plot or narrative interaction, it just reality warping via text manip.

He is interacting with the world, not the narrative or the plot.

You can ask a staff for sure tho.

I'm going to sleep, tomorrow work.

Aight man have a good day.
I heard in this wiki you have to get staff votes or something so i'll wait for that ig.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Where is it stated that it's an innate resistance?

Also, I really don't think there's any precedent for "stronger UES users can resist whatever weaker UES users do", unless DMC explicitly confirms that to be the case?

EDIT: To be clear I think only Dante would get the resistance, nobody else should scale. That's not how resistances work.

better question. where is it stated that it isnt an innate resistance?
for something to be not innate, it would have to come from an outside source, like if dante was using a magical object to resist it, then it wouldnt be innate. but this isnt the case here, he just resists it naturally by himself, therefore its an innate ability that he has. one that can only be explained by his demonic heritage. and Arkham states that the twins have the exact same powers because of that. this is all accepted btw. its the reason the sparda inheritance section exists in the physiology page

as for your second remark. what you're saying here, disregards the whole hierarchy of the verse. this is some random demon using "weak demonic power" to control a pocket dimension and its not a special thing, dante explicitly remarks that. literally every demon in the series has control of demonic power. they too should be capable of the same thing

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

better question. where is it stated that it isnt an innate resistance?
for something to be not innate, it would have to come from an outside source, like if dante was using a magical object to resist it, then it wouldnt be innate. but this isnt the case here, he just resists it naturally by himself, therefore its an innate ability that he has. one that can only be explained by his demonic heritage. and Arkham states that the twins have the exact same powers because of that. this is all accepted btw. its the reason the sparda inheritance section exists in the physiology page

"One that can only be explained by his demonic heritage" Literally where does it say that. You can't just say "they share resistances because Yes" and then not elaborate.

as for your second remark. what you're saying here, disregards the whole hierarchy of the verse. this is some random demon using "weak demonic power" to control a pocket dimension and its not a special thing, dante explicitly remarks that. literally every demon in the series has control of demonic power. they too should be capable of the same thing

Okay, but why does that mean they resist it? Is there a mechanic where high tier demons automatically resist everything from low tier demons? If not, then this point still doesn't make any sense. Also if you're implying that every demon should also get plot hax then I'm switching my stance to hard disagree, there is 0 evidence for that.

 

[Sevil Natas]

"One that can only be explained by his demonic heritage" Literally where does it say that. You can't just say "they share resistances because Yes" and then not elaborate.

premise 1: the only innate power source dante has at that point, or really at any point in the series actually, is his sparda blood
premise 2: dante resists a demons world manipulation, that works on regular people, without external tools or help.
conclusion: dante resisted it due to his innate power as a half demon sparda twin.
that wasnt so hard to rationalize now was it?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

premise 1: the only innate power source dante has at that point, or really at any point in the series actually, is his sparda blood
premise 2: dante resists a demons world manipulation, that works on regular people, without external tools or help.
conclusion: dante resisted it due to his innate power as a half demon sparda twin.
that wasnt so hard to rationalize now was it?

....................................What. Yeah, premise 2 is a lot more reasonable, because there is no indication that his physiology is what grants him these resistances.

 

[Sevil Natas]

....................................What. Yeah, premise 2 is a lot more reasonable, because there is no indication that his physiology is what grants him these resistances.

okay explain it then. where else could dante resist this shit if not for his demonic physiology?

 

[Asdtgh]

Agreed. It seems quite point-blank stated Dante can resist Peter Pan's story telling of his Neverland.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

okay explain it then. where else could dante resist this shit if not for his demonic physiology?

That doesn't need an explanation, jfc. Sometimes fictional characters simply resist things because they just do, and there doesn't need to be any particularly deep lore tying that resistance back to a verse mechanic. Like, my own verse does this all the damn time, doesn't mean I'm just gonna slap resistance to everything under the sun on every profile just because "well one guy resisted it, therefore everyone does".

How many resistances on the demon physiology page are based on this logic, out of curiosity?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That doesn't need an explanation, jfc. Sometimes fictional characters simply resist things because they just do, and there doesn't need to be any particularly deep lore tying that resistance back to a verse mechanic. Like, my own verse does this all the damn time, doesn't mean I'm just gonna slap resistance to everything under the sun on every profile just because "well one guy resisted it, therefore everyone does".

Not in DMC.

There's mechanisms for everything. Even for the most asspull powers ever.
Nothing is random or for sake of it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not in DMC.

There's mechanisms for everything. Even for the most asspull powers ever.
Nothing is random or for sake of it.

Okay, then explain it. Why do characters scale to each others' individual resistances?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Okay, then explain it. Why do characters scale to each others' individual resistances?

Depends on instance.
What power? Which characters? What reason? What mechanics? Does it make sense for anything to scale in heirarchy or does it not?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Depends on instance.
What power? Which characters? What reason? What mechanics? Does it make sense for anything to scale in heirarchy or does it not?

Why should other characters have a resistance that only Dante has shown?

 

[Sevil Natas]

That doesn't need an explanation, jfc. Sometimes fictional characters simply resist things because they just do, and there doesn't need to be any particularly deep lore tying that resistance back to a verse mechanic. Like, my own verse does this all the damn time, doesn't mean I'm just gonna slap resistance to everything under the sun on every profile just because "well one guy resisted it, therefore everyone does".

so. you're saying that he doesnt resist it by the fact that he's a half demon, a fact that you know, grants him pretty much all his powers in the verse, and makes him what he is. no. he resists it just because he resists it, yeah that makes total sense!

listen i know writers do stupid nonsensical shit all the time like giving a normal ass humans 9-B feats for no reason we do compensate for those & grant characters the ability anyways. but this case, is not one of them. dante gets all his innate powers like regen, soul manip, DT etc from his demonic heritage, it stands to reason that his resistances also come from his only power source as well, as there's literally no other explanation that would make a lick of sense.

Why should other characters have a resistance that only Dante has shown?

and if you're looking for statements. here you go

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

and if you're looking for statements. here you go

This seems to be reliant on them sharing Sparda's heritage, and therefore they should share everything falling under that heritage (like their hybrid physiology). I don't think it justifies Dante and Vergil having identical powers in every possible context.

so. you're saying that he doesnt resist it by the fact that he's a half demon, a fact that you know, grants him pretty much all his powers in the verse, and makes him what he is. no. he resists it just because he resists it, yeah that makes total sense!

listen i know writers do stupid nonsensical shit all the time like giving a normal ass humans 9-B feats for no reason we do compensate for those & grant characters the ability anyways. but this case, is not one of them. dante gets all his innate powers like regen, soul manip, DT etc from his demonic heritage, it stands to reason that his resistances also come from his only power source as well, as there's literally no other explanation that would make a lick of sense.

If you can't prove that he resists it because he's a half demon, then we have no reason to assume that. Burden of proof is on you here.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

so. you're saying that he doesnt resist it by the fact that he's a half demon, a fact that you know, grants him pretty much all his powers in the verse, and makes him what he is. no. he resists it just because he resists it, yeah that makes total sense!

listen i know writers do stupid nonsensical shit all the time like giving a normal ass humans 9-B feats for no reason we do compensate for those & grant characters the ability anyways. but this case, is not one of them. dante gets all his innate powers like regen, soul manip, DT etc from his demonic heritage, it stands to reason that his resistances also come from his only power source as well, as there's literally no other explanation that would make a lick of sense.

and if you're looking for statements. here you go

Vergil doesn't scale to Dante post DMC 3, we already talked about this

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

If you can't prove that he resists it because he's a half demon, then we have no reason to assume that. Burden of proof is on you here.

Tf? Everything he does is because he is a half demon, that's literally the premise of the whole damn series.


Like, what stoopid ass logic is that.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

so. you're saying that he doesnt resist it by the fact that he's a half demon, a fact that you know, grants him pretty much all his powers in the verse, and makes him what he is. no. he resists it just because he resists it, yeah that makes total sense!

listen i know writers do stupid nonsensical shit all the time like giving a normal ass humans 9-B feats for no reason we do compensate for those & grant characters the ability anyways. but this case, is not one of them. dante gets all his innate powers like regen, soul manip, DT etc from his demonic heritage, it stands to reason that his resistances also come from his only power source as well, as there's literally no other explanation that would make a lick of sense.

That's a whole lot of words to say simply Occam's Razor.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Vergil doesn't scale to Dante post DMC 3, we already talked about this

Post DMC2.

Even that's case by case.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Vergil doesn't scale to Dante post DMC 3, we already talked about this

no we didnt & you're wrong. we agreed its past DMC2 as thats where they surpass sparda

If you can't prove that he resists it because he's a half demon, then we have no reason to assume that. Burden of proof is on you here.

if you can't prove that gravity exists because of general relativity, then we have no reason to assume that. Burden of proof is in on you here

This seems to be reliant on them sharing Sparda's heritage, and therefore they should share everything falling under that heritage (like their hybrid physiology). I don't think it justifies Dante and Vergil having identical powers in every possible context.

it justifies them having the same innate powers, which is what we care about here

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Tf? Everything he does is because he is a half demon, that's literally the premise of the whole damn series.


Like, what stoopid ass logic is that.

That's some backwards ass logic that wouldn't fly anywhere else. If a character resists something without explanation, then nobody else scales to it. If there is an explanation, just give it already. But until that happens, I'm changing my vote to disagree.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

if you can't prove that gravity exists because of general relativity, then we have no reason to assume that. Burden of proof is in on you here

What?

it justifies them having the same innate powers, which is what we care about here

Just because they share the same physiology doesn't mean they share every single power. They share their physiology-based powers, of course, but where is it stated that the resistance in this case is physiology-based?

 

[Asdtgh]

Didn't Dante explicitly stated that it's because of Peter's weak demonic power, keyword being power, he can resist against his plot manipulation? It works on human children, but not him. And like how every demon in DMC2 can resist Argosax's casual time-stop, but will be affected by the stronger time manipulation powers like the Chrono Heart/Quicksilver/Cronus' Key/Bangle of Time, it has to be dependent on the demon's power level to be able to resist stronger hax like so?



Plus, even DMC 1 and 5 follow up on this rule with how Bangle of Time does not affect stronger bosses like Nelo Angelo at his peak and Mundus, with Nero and Dante using DT to resist being caught under Vergil's JCE's time-stop.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That's some backwards ass logic that wouldn't fly anywhere else. If a character resists something without explanation, then nobody else scales to it. If there is an explanation, just give it already. But until that happens, I'm changing my vote to disagree.

So every instance of any magical ability you want the verse to include a sentence to say the same shit over and over and over that Sparda bloodline share/develop abilities/resistance?

 

[Sevil Natas]

What?

you're basically saying that i should prove the only possible explanation that makes logical sense to be the true one. if that was the case, everything and i mean everything that we know about the world would be "cant assume anything, burden of proof is on you here"

Just because they share the same physiology doesn't mean they share every single power. They share their physiology-based powers, of course, but where is it stated that the resistance in this case is physiology-based?

every single innate power they have comes from physiology from DMC 3 to 2. there's literally nothing else they could be using to gain it. burden of proof is on you to prove it otherwise. i'm not claiming the positive here, you are the one asserting that these abilities come from... pretty much no where and not their only proven power source

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Didn't Dante explicitly stated that it's because of Peter's weak demonic power, keyword being power, he can resist against his plot manipulation? It works on human children, but not him. And like how every demon in DMC2 can resist Argosax's casual time-stop, but will be affected by the stronger time manipulation powers like the Chrono Heart/Quicksilver/Cronus' Key/Bangle of Time, it has to be dependent on the demon's power level to be able to resist stronger hax like so?



Plus, even DMC 1 and 5 follow up on this rule with how Bangle of Time does not affect stronger bosses like Nelo Angelo at his peak and Mundus, with Nero and Dante using DT to resist being caught under Vergil's JCE's time-stop.

If it's power-level based then I disagree with it even being a resistance to begin with lmao

So every instance of any magical ability you want the verse to include a sentence to say the same shit over and over and over that Sparda bloodline share/develop abilities/resistance?

Not really, but anything that confirms that their bloodline is why they resist those things would work. That, or anything that is clearly shared by a majority of users, like the pain tolerance and heat resistance.

you're basically saying that i should prove the only possible explanation that makes logical sense to be the true one. if that was the case, everything and i mean everything that we know about the world would be "cant assume anything, burden of proof is on you here"

...It's not the only possible explanation though?

every single innate power they have comes from physiology from DMC 3 to 2. there's literally nothing else they could be using to gain it. burden of proof is on you to prove it otherwise. i'm not claiming the positive here, you are the one asserting that these abilities come from... pretty much no where and not their only proven power source

And what is the source of this claim? You keep saying that every power they have is based on their physiology, but you haven't proven that....

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Not really, but anything that confirms that their bloodline is why they resist those things would work. That, or anything that is clearly shared by a majority of users, like the pain tolerance and heat resistance.

Their bloodline is why they have their power in the first place. All of it.

Without it they are just regular ass civilians who will literally eat their own eye balls at the first sight of demon due to madness hax or become corrupted in body or soul due to demonic energy.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Their bloodline is why they have their power in the first place. All of it.

Without it they are just regular ass civilians who will literally eat their own eye balls at the first sight of demon due to madness hax or become corrupted in body or soul due to demonic energy.

I didn't disagree with that, but that doesn't mean everyone with their physiology is identical. People within the same species can develop their own unique traits and abilities, so you'd have to prove that any given resistance is either A. common enough that it's likely due to their shared traits (ie; physiology) or B. something that is explicitly due to their physiology.