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Devil May Cry massive revisions (NO, NOT FROM KAMIYA'S TWITTER)

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I still find this revision to be very reliable. As I've mentioned earlier, the DMC writers have shown concern over consistency between the novels and the games, which they wouldn't need to bother with if they were not canonical. On top of that, there are plenty of references to the novels in the games. Other people have already mentioned the DMC2 novel specifically, but even the DMC1 novel, which has the most debatable canonicity due to inconsistencies, has in-game evidence. In the games, his guns are ingraved with "For Tony Redgrave" on the side, an alias which he only ever used in the DMC1 novel. One of the trailers for DMC5 also confirms that the new character, Nico, is Nell Goldstein's granddaughter (Nell only ever appeared in the DMC1 novel). Mix that with the entire episode of the animated series that's all about his Tony Redgrave alias, and it's quite clear that the novels are meant to be canon. In fact, the comparison made to the Dark Souls comics are so unbelievably dubious compared to the rest of the evidence so far that I would be more inclined to believe Kamiya's tweets over that comparison for evidence. Mix the canonicity of the DMC2 novel where he fought Void Mundus with the barely even remotely contested Nightmare feat (Where the best counter argument I've found boils down to "it doesn't feel real"), and we now have multiple examples of at least Universal feats.
 
Well regarding canonicity, Enzo is a pretty important character that appears in DMC 1 and 2 novels, the canon DMC3 manga and the CD Dramas which are heavily tied to the anime and features characters from the anime, same voice actors, written by Bingo Morihashi and explains "retcons" like why "Devil May Cry"(the shop) was called "Devil Never Cry" after 1 and why it changed back.The point is the DMC3 manga treated a character from the DMC 1 and 2 novels as canon, DMC3 even referenced a weapon from the DMC2 novel which was Beryl's anti-tank rifle in the form of Spiral,Bingo being the writer of DMC 3,4,5,DMC 4 and 5 novel, CD Dramas and contributing to the writing of the anime, Itsuno backing up Bingo and implementing references to his works and DMC novels in the game, and Bingo referencing the DMC novels in his novels and DMC related material he put out, needing a statement to prove the DMC2 novel's canonicity via a statement or in game reference is ridiculous at this point.It is also even more ridiculous considering the only reason DMC1 novel is considered noncanon is because the DMC3 manga and game contradict it in a major way, not because it was stated non-canon and so the same should be applied to the DMC2 novel.
 
Fair enough, I can agree with that as well. I would still like to see more people add their opinions on for this, since it is quite a major revision, but I do agree that whatever the result is, we should wait until after DMC5's release.
 
Inb4 Zimatorn makes another rant video which Matt has to send him this video on his YouTube channel again.

Anyway, with all seriousness; I still agree with Matt. "Dreams" or "Nightmares" do give the impression that they're illusions. Mundus's name meaning universe doesn't make him universe level. There does exist a celebrity whose last name is galaxy, but he's not galaxy level. And Matt already addressed the canonicity stuff.

I also do agree to wait for DMC 5.
 
I do want to specify, I agree with the point about Mundus meaning Universe not proving he is universe level, but the comparison you made about a celebrity who's last name is Galaxy isn't comparable here. It's stated in the DMC3 manga that a demon's name is representative of their true self (slight paraphrasing, but still essentially the same point). This indicates that demons specifically (certainly not humans) are in some way affected by their name. Again, I do still disagree with this automatically meaning Mundus is Universe level, since his name is allegorical. But mixed alongside evidence from the DMC2 novel of Void Mundus, Universe level Mundus is still certainly not impossible.
 
"Anyway, with all seriousness; I still agree with Matt. "Dreams" or "Nightmares" do give the impression that they're illusions. Mundus's name meaning universe doesn't make him universe level. There does exist a celebrity whose last name is galaxy, but he's not galaxy level. And Matt already addressed the canonicity stuff."

This is completely contradictory. You are on one hand claiming that "nightmare" has to be illusions due to name (despite the hard confirmed evidence that this isn't the case), yet for some reason call foul when other people attempt to use demon names to make inferences of their power?

You guys still have yet to offer up any evidence outside "his name is nightmare!" or counter the evidence given. His name being nightmare has nothing to do with whether or not his power creates an actual dimension or not, and is in reference to what he fills his dimension with (spirits based on the victims unconscious).
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Leaving a comment here for popcorn fest.
Click to expand...
You know, as much as I love this debate, that's fair.
 
I will never understand how that Nightmare could be interpreted as a mental feat or illusions.The game explicitly shows Nightmare physically teleporting Dante to the Evil Dimension, the lore states that the evil spirits that exist in the dimension takes the form of Dante's trauma, the evil spirits turning into Dante's trauma is an ability of said evil spirits as the description of Nightmare implies.
 
I fully agree, Dr. whiteee. If you're just joining in to this debate, and you haven't seen the previous discussion about Nightmare, do look through it very carefully. It's pretty clear, from the evidence provided, that the world you enter when you fight Nightmare is literal and existent, and that only the demons inside the world are not real (since Nelo Angelo appearing after his death in Nightmare's world is pretty non-sensical). The fact that Nightmare can create a dimension is, all around, pretty solid evidence for a tier upgrade.

EDIT: Just to be more specific, I mean that the demons in the evil dimension like Nelo Angelo are not literally those specific demons (so, the Nelo Angelo you See is not actually Nelo Angelo). Obviously the fact that they can attack and deal damage to you means they must physically exist in some way, adding further credence to the idea that the world inside Nightmare does truly exist.
 
Dienomite22 said:
I will never understand how that Nightmare could be interpreted as a mental feat or illusions.The game explicitly shows Nightmare physically teleporting Dante to the Evil Dimension, the lore states that the evil spirits that exist in the dimension takes the form of Dante's trauma, the evil spirits turning into Dante's trauma is an ability of said evil spirits as the description of Nightmare implies.
Click to expand...
Because his name is Nightmare! It's like how the fighter from Soul Claiber isn't even real
 
"The fact that Nightmare can create a dimension is, all around, pretty solid evidence for a tier upgrade." not necessarily since no size is given but it is proof of spatial creation for Mundus.
 
The mirrDienomite22 said:
"The fact that Nightmare can create a dimension is, all around, pretty solid evidence for a tier upgrade." not necessarily since no size is given but it is proof of spatial creation for Mundus.
Click to expand...
The mirror world houses it's own sun
 
Dienomite22 said:
"The fact that Nightmare can create a dimension is, all around, pretty solid evidence for a tier upgrade." not necessarily since no size is given but it is proof of spatial creation for Mundus.
Click to expand...
To add on to what Dr. whiteee has said, it must be noted that, when it comes to physical spaces outside of our own universe, the terms "dimension" and "universe" are almost completely interchangeable. That may seem like a stretch, but if you take any good look at other examples of the terms being used, unless "dimension" is being used to describe some kind of special measurement (which it most certainly is not in this scenario), it's almost always just used as an alternative to universe. In fact, the word "dimension" is technically not actually a word to describe some kind of separate area, all I can find on it seems to suggest that in the context, it's always used interchangeably with universe.
 
Nah dimension is just simply a space time that is a subsect of our current spacetime. It can be used interchangeably, but it is not inherent. Even if a dimension is it's own "universe" there still has to be sufficient evidence of it being comparable to our observable universe to get the scaling.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
Nah dimension is just simply a space time that is a subsect of our current spacetime. It can be used interchangeably, but it is not inherent. Even if a dimension is it's own "universe" there still has to be sufficient evidence of it being comparable to our observable universe to get the scaling.
Click to expand...
Alright, fair enough. I suppose I was jumping ahead a bit with my conclusion. I'll retract that part of my argument.

I do still think Mundus could potentially be considered Universe level due to the Void Mundus feat. This lines up quite nicely with the Nightmare feat, actually. If the Nightmare feat and the fact that Mundus can create multiple Nightmares, mixed with what appears to be him creating stars in the Mundus boss fight (I can get more into that later) means he'd be around the range of High 4-A to 3-C, then Void Mundus (who is stated to be more powerful) could most certainly be 3-A under the given evidence. It's possible, if this change goes through, that his character page might need a divider (to seperate the 4-A/3-C Mundus feat from the 3-A Void Mundus feat).
 
Would that make the count so far 5-2-1?
 
Actually, there was also Kepekley and me in the disagreements list. DragonMasterxyz and WeeklyBattles also gave Matt kudos as signs of agreement with him; meaning they too disagree with the OP. But that may or may not count.

So more like 5-4(6)-1
 
That makes 5-4(possibly 6 if clarified)-2
 
I'll be perfectly honest, looking through these replies, I have yet to see anything that debunks the main two feats here. The Nightmare feat, which would put Mundus at around High 4-A, and the Void Mundus feat, which would put Void Mundus at 3-A. The only claims I've seen about Nightmare being false have been easily disproven, especially considering how the guide for the game itself states that it is a literal dimension. The only genuine claims I've seen so far are along the lines of "it doesn't quite feel right for it to be real", which is far outweighed by the claim made by the game manual itself along with other smaller pieces of evidence here and there mentioned. The Void Mundus feat is extremely important here, yet practically nobody is contesting it.

Some of the claims made so far are a bit dubious. Most of what has been claimed falls around "Certainly possible, but a bit iffy" to "Plausible, but a stretch". But the Nightmare and Void Mundus feats so far are both the most important, and they have very little to no evidence against them (and for the last time, the DMC2 novel is canon. It has always been canon. That is a very obvious point that has always been accepted. You can't decide otherwise now without proof just to fit your argument.)

I don't mean this from a condescending standpoint. I just genuinely want the people who disagree with this revision to look back through the replies and tell me exactly why they still disagree. I want to hear any arguments. I may very strongly agree with this revision, but in the end I just want it to be changed in ways that are correct. And so far, I've seen almost nothing reliable that tells me this revision is not correct.
 
What backs up these "evil dimensions" being universe in size?. Going by word of God, Mundus is the supposed universe sized one but did her create these evil dimensions as well?.

Also who says the Savior's Pocket Dimensions are full on universes in size?.
 
I do not believe the evil dimensions to be universal in size. We haven't been claiming that. I make a specific point about the Nightmare feat making Mundus 4-A (Multi-Solar System). This is because in these "evil dimensions" we see that you appear to be on a celestial body (in an area that is quite visibly not our universe), with a clearly distinct star in the backdrop very far away. This suggests that these evil dimensions are at least Solar System in size (and certainly possibly higher, but we're going with the conservative estimate here). Given that Mundus created all the demons, and he's made it very clear that he can make many more, this means he's capable of creating multiple Nightmares, therefore multiple solar systems. This is further backed up in the Mundus boss fight. While it is infamously difficult to tell what exactly goes on in that fight, he does very clearly seem to be creating stars during the fight. My full justification for why I believe this is too long to list in this one post (it's already getting too long, I'll write it below this one), but if it is the case that he is 4-A due to the Nightmare feat, it perfectly explains how he's creating large clusters of stars all at once (since such a feat would require them to be 4-A. Probably even higher than that, but as optimistic as I am I'm still going off of conservative estimates here).
 
So, here's a detailed explanation as to why I believe stars are being created in the Mundus boss fight.

First of all, despite all of the claims about it, the area you are in is very clearly not any regular stretch of space. When Mundus first teleports you, it looks relatively normal, with a stereotypical night sky background used. But when the fight actually begins, you are in a completely different environment. There appears to be some kind of... vortex? (Probably not the best description for it, but you get the idea) while what looks like clouds on the top and bottom of you zipping past. I don't care what area of space you look at, it won't look anything like that. So whatever this place is, it's clearly not space.

Second of all, Mundus' attitude. Even with Mundus' depicted confidence, he's acting ridiculously confident in the battle with you. He knows that he was once defeated by Sparda, and going off of the claims made by Griffon that Mundus seems to have witnessed (note how Mundus appears the moment Griffon calls for him, meaning he was within earshot), apparently Dante is even greater in power than Sparda (not necessarily a reliable feat, by the way). Regardless, Mundus would have heard this and known that Dante is no small threat on his own. But then, when Dante goes up against him with his own power, plus that of Sparda, Mundus still acts completely unphased despite this clearly being a battle that he should know he can't win. It's only when Dante activates the Sparda Devil Trigger that Mundus finally shows himself and opens the portal to... wherever. Yet once they both go inside, Mundus continues to act unphased towards Dante. You see what's happening here, right? There was no reason for Mundus to have opened up a portal to nowhere to fight, that's just a waste of energy and gives him no advantage, which even he would know he needs. The only possible reason he would have opened up the portal, bringing Dante inside and then proceeding to act the way he does is if he has brought them to an area where he has a massive upper hand. The only possible upper hand he could get from teleporting to somewhere outside of our own universe (which I showed earlier) is if it's a place where he has control over everything. It is almost certainly a dimension that he created, if not an entire universe (although again, I'm going with conservative estimates here). At the most, in the battle we see large clusters of stars (both very clearly before the battle, and what appears to be stars during the battle). I'd be more inclined to call this a 3-C feat (and it could even be possibly used to justify 3-A), but for the sake of consistency this is also quite well explained as a 4-A feat, which is perfectly consistent with what we saw earlier with the Nightmare feat.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I think this is enough for my point to be clear: Mundus is shown to be at least 4-A.
 
The saviours pocket dimensions are a bit iffy in my opinion. As I stare in my earlier post, the truly important feats here are the Nightmare feat and the Void Mundus feat. I'm honestly not so sure about the reliability of the Saviours pocket dimension feat, but in the end it's not the main point here as it has nothing to do with the Nightmare and Void Mundus feats (which are by far the main ones that will affect tiering).
 
Also not taking a side, but in the Mundus fight it's clearly not a teleportation because we see him teleport later and there's clearly a very different way of teleporting (using seals and the breaking of reality and all that) We also know that in the Mundus fight you're not in the demon realm because it doesn't have a sky with stars and you're not in the Human realm because when you do fight in the Human realm Mundus himself comments that both he and you are weaker.
 
I honestly would suggest waiting till Devil May Cry 5 comes out and see what feats happen in that because something might come up that could make all this invalid.

So far tho I only see the 4-A stuff being possible. I'm not in agreement with the 3-A things so far.
 
Don't worry, I agree with the idea of waiting until Devil May Cry 5 before concluding this thread. It would just be absurd if something in DMC5 contradicted all this information so far, but it's possible, so it's worth waiting. Still, I think it's still a good time to discuss this revision, while all of this info is still fresh in our minds.
 
About the canonicity, let's wait until DMC5 too, but again, as I said earlier, we have a lot of evidence to say that is canon

> It explains a lot of plot details that are only explained by this novel alone, like Dante's personality in DMC2, why he knew how to find Lucia and DMC5 showing the dagger and the map that Lucia used to give Dante her location in cutscenes, it's literally there

> Also, like Dienomite said, the Novel came years before the manga and already showed Enzo. The manga, which is canon, literally took this character to show his relation with Dante years before the main events of the series.

> Bingo Morihashi is a writer that were present in many DMC stuff that is canon, the only one that is semi-canon is the first Novel and is only because it have some contraditions with the manga, the new Novel "Before the Nightmare" will be canon and Bingo is also writing it

About any Tier 4&3 feats, they are outlier since the verse is consistent with Tier 8/7/6 feats

And calling the novel feats High 3-A or even 4-A (considering a finite Universe shaking feat) is just a exaggeration, they were at Earth, and while they do "shook the world", that would first mean that they shook the planet, which is a Tier 6 feat, 6-B I believe
 
What does the nightmare dimension thing look like? I know the mundus thingy does have some stuff resembling stars in the background at some points during the fight.
 
no we could-- holy shetto that's an awesome pic OVO

>but in seriousness just wait
 
There is a major problem with the outlier argument. While many feats accomplished by some of the more powerful demons (like Mundus, Argosax, Abigail and of course Dante) are consistently around High 6-A, it's clear that their limits are far beyond that. This has been brought up time and time again, the fact that these characters are "At least High 6-A" Because they have been shown performing High 6-A feats, yet their limits are an indeterminate amount above that. The main feat this is scaled to is Abigail's continental cloud feat. However, that feat is often considered very causal on Abigail's part. That's where the problem comes in.

Note that this is an entirely theoretical situation I'm using as an example, I'm not even remotely claiming this is true. Let's say a character is tier 7-B, and because of that they very casually perform a feat that would be considered 10-B, but they are never shown to have done anything higher. They would probably be considered "At least 10-B, likely higher". Let's say there is another character, who is tier 4-C. In the same situation as the 7-B character, they perform a feat that is 10-B very casually, and they are never depicted doing anything else even though they are capable of doing far more. They would also be considered "At least 10-B, likely higher". Do you see the problem, and how it connects to this issue? Major demons in Devil May Cry have been depicted performing what would at least be considered High 6-A feats very casually, implying that they are much stronger than we see by an indeterminate amount. While there is obviously a point where this gets absolutely ridiculous, this does mean that demons like Mundus can be very far beyond High 6-A at their limits without it necessarily being an outlier. If there's evidence to back it up, these feats are reliable because it wouldn't be outside their limits to be a far higher tier.
 
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