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Devil May Cry massive revisions (NO, NOT FROM KAMIYA'S TWITTER)

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Normally I'd probably consider Matthew to be the be all end all of Devil May Cry revisions, but I've honestly got to agree with the OP here. So far, I've not seen any conclusive evidence that would suggest the Nightmare world is not real. And on the topic of canonicity, the only Devil May Cry novel I've ever heard as Having debatable canonicity is the DMC1 novel (and that's because of how it contradicts DMC3). Even then, the writer for DMC3 apparently stated that he and other people he was working with were worried about the contradiction at first, suggesting that the novels are in fact canonical. Gotta agree with OP here, even though I'm a little bit inconclusive on what his exact tiering would be.

Oh, and just to give Matthew some credit (since he does work his ass off on here, so he need credit where credit is due) he is correct about Mundus' name. It is explicitly stated to be allegorical, so unlike some of the names of other characters in the series, it's not reliable in itself. I still agree with the OP's overall point, but not that detail.
 
The novel has no proof of being canonical, and even if it was we have no idea how big Mundus' void dimension in it is. The idea of it being Tier 2 is purely randomly taken. Likewise, the Savior Dimensions even if legit are 100% unquantifiable, and the Nightmare, as a result of being a mental world of the subconscious, is also questionable and unquantifiable.
 
Matt, pretty much everything you're saying is just repeating ad infinitum, and you've done nothing to actually defend your claims.
 
Normally, I would agree with the size of Mundus' void being vague, but once again, the true form of a demon comes from their name, his name means universe, the novel even states that Mundus is the void itself, and after the battle, Dante believed he had a leg up because he had already faced Mundus in his personal world before. (Which helps out two feats)

Again, why are we wrong about canon?

Why is the Savior unquantifiable?

Where is the evidence saying they are solely not real? You arent directly countering the presented points.

These questions should be answered in order for the conversation to proceed. Im not saying the burden of proof is on you, but this is how debating works since misconceptions on either side should be cleared up.
 
Mundus' name is allegorical as stated by Kamiya himself on the Prima Guide, the point of the name is absolutely moot. So you should stop bringing it up.

Secondly, Positive Affirmations require Proof. This is how Burden of Proof works, telling me that it should be the opposite isn't an argument, it is just showing a complete disregard for how arguing works in general. You say it is canon, so show me why it is canon. Without evidence that it is, it isn't.

The Savior is unquantifiable because theres nothing to define his dimensions or even prove they are real dimensions whatsoever.

Finally, a demon called Nightmare which takes you to a Nightmare World where you fight demons born of your subconcious... Mmmmmmm, I wonder why it is more likely that it is an illusion / mental feat. You tell me.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The novel has no proof of being canonical,
Click to expand...
I just... What? I just provided you with some proof. Why would the writers of Devil May Cry be worried about inconsistencies with the novel unless the novel was supposed to be canonical? You do nothing to disprove my argument, simply tossing it aside without a second thought. Isn't that the same line of logic used by people who defended Kamiya's tweets as 3-A a few years back?

Matt, c'mon. You're extremely reliable on this wiki. I love all the work you put in, but right now you aren't giving us anything.
 
Ive already said that the name is already inherently allegorical if its name means something else, and what that "something else" is is his true form. Im not disregarding that at all, if anything, this EXPANDS upon it. The two ideas can coexist.

Evidence was posted above. Even then, Im kind of iffy of canon requiring to be compliant with universal debating standards for the reasons I said above.

Thats not really the same as being unquantifiable so it was kind of misleading, thats just more like it being wrong Id think. Not sure what to say otherwise.

We were deconstructing an enemy file (as well as what happens ingame) that explains what and who Nightmare is, which suggests otherwise. This kind of avoids that.
 
Neutral about this [through i disagree with the Nightmare and Saviour stuff], but the DMC profiles mentions about Void Mundus and the Bethesdad, so it was accepted as canon if not such informations would be not in their profiles [Through if this will be rejected then said stuff will be likely removed from their profiles], Kep also said that the Void where Dante and Mundus fought was infinite and both were able to easily shake it as a High 3-A feat [Through i need more info. about this]. The Ocean feat or maybe Mundus lasers might make their speed higher, but i'm aware that this might will be brought up for their speeds if Mundus will be upgraded.

If Ant or other Users passes here the OP wants to make the DMC1 char., including Base Dante from Nightmare feat as at least High 4-C and Low 2-C for the Mundus level char from the Novels and Saviour stuff, also upgrade their speeds via the grabbing Ocean feat.
 
Grath, what proof exactly? The Inconsistencies things would exist be the novel canon or not. Even if non-canon, nobody would like if Dante suddenly had a cannon that shot rainbows and rode a unicorn to battle. Maintaining the feel and atmosphere and storyline of the games is important for that. That in by itself isn't proof in the slightest that it should be considered canon, I am sorry.

As for Nekroz, the True Form of Mundus as seen in the games insi't a universe, but a grotesque monstrosity which you kill at the end of DMC1. So I dunno why you bring up a clear allegory as a literal feat.

As for Nightmare, all of his lore suggests the feat isn't literal.
 
I can't believe I'm saying this but honestly, DarkGrath and Nekros (If that's how I can say his name shortly) seem to make sense
 
I read the novel and Im not sure where the evidence is where it claims it is infinite in size. (Thats why I said above Id agree otherwise with the void being unquantifiable if it werent for some other stuff)

Can someone post evidence suggesting that?
 
"Secondly, Positive Affirmations require Proof. This is how Burden of Proof works, telling me that it should be the opposite isn't an argument, it is just showing a complete disregard for how arguing works in general. You say it is canon, so show me why it is canon. Without evidence that it is, it isn't."

You clearly didn't correctly read my argument. It's a liscened product. By the same company. Using the same story as a basis for the extensions of canon. This position inherently has more evidence in it's favor then YOUR positive claim that "they aren't canon" which you have done jack to prove. Please don't play these games when you don't even know the rules.

"Finally, a demon called Nightmare which takes you to a Nightmare World where you fight demons born of your subconcious... Mmmmmmm, I wonder why it is more likely that it is an illusion / mental feat. You tell me."

This is legit not even an argument and just shows you are coming at this from a purely pathos standpoint. No subtatnial arguments, no counters to the evidence given and a roundabout non sequitur about the name as if that does anything towards the notion that it isn't a dimension as stated. Real low tier debating here.
 
So what if it's licensed?Dark Souls has licensed comics published by the same people and they are non-canon. That in by itself means jack and doesn't prove your point. And telling me to just stop playing Devil May Cry as if you had some authority over what is or isn't is pretty insulting.

And yes, it is, you are just going by the personal belief that it must be real while providing no substantied evidence other than "It is, prove it isn't".

The inversion of the burden of proof is strong in this thread.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Grath, what proof exactly? The Inconsistencies things would exist be the novel canon or not. Even if non-canon, nobody would like if Dante suddenly had a cannon that shot rainbows and rode a unicorn to battle. Maintaining the feel and atmosphere and storyline of the games is important for that. That in by itself isn't proof in the slightest that it should be considered canon, I am sorry.
Click to expand...
dude you are strawmanning a point that wasn't even made
 
Seeing as nothing in the novels is brought up at any point in any of the games or the anime and there is nothing stating that the novels are actually canon, we have no reason to just assume that they are. This is true for any game, hell Dark Souls has a series of comics that was licensed by the same company but they arent considered canon. You would need explicit proof that the novels are canon before we considered them as such.

As for nightmare, i agree that there isnt anything suggesting his feat is literal, that would be like making Freddy Krueger Low 2-C because he controls the dream world.
 
> ignoring evidence still.

"So what if it's licensed?Dark Souls has licensed comics published by the same people and they are non-canon. That in by itself means jack and doesn't prove your point. And telling me to just stop playing Devil May Cry as if you had some authority over what is or isn't is pretty insulting."

Yes, and you are completely skipping over the context. The content was released as supplementary material to the game universe, by the same company. Most of this coming directly with or around the same time as DMC game launches. Wonder why they would bundle the content together that has interelated canon to each other? Such canon status is only non canon when given direct discrepncies with the original source material, or outright stated to be seperate. I didn't tell you to stop playing DMC, I told you to stop trying to play this "logic game" as you are making no sense.

Lmao are you serious? There is no personal belief. It is outright observable as a phenonemona. Check. The guide strictly tells us it involves teleportation into another dimension. Check.

Remind me again what you have brought as counter evidence to support your notion it's all an illusion? Let's check back and see.

"Finally, a demon called Nightmare which takes you to a Nightmare World where you fight demons born of your subconcious... Mmmmmmm, I wonder why it is more likely that it is an illusion / mental feat. You tell me."

> No counter argument to specific evidence.

> Literal argument from personal perception "What does this look like? His name is nightmare? Automatically fake!". Don't need to explain how that argument is trash.

> Still have not provided a link argument which makes your positive claim (that it is an illusion and not real) .

> Still not acknowledged his external consistency being null if he accepts shit like Persona being real. (I can legit pull up quotes from you arguing with someone else claiming persona shit isn't real because "cognitive stuff" and you claiming it didn't matter as it was a clear analogue to a cognitive reality).

You are trying to pass this off as some sort of Hebi Sasuke vs Itachi genjutsu fight and it's not only nonevidenced, but quite dishonest.

So only your positive claims don't need substantiating? Got it.
 
Well, we do consider the novel canon here since a CRT some time ago

> The novel explains why Dante is so serious in DMC2

> It explains how Dante knew where to find Lucia and that she used a map and a dagger for her location in his shop, which appears in his shop in DMC5 trailers

Literally canon details would go vague without this novel

The High 3-A feat is just a Outlier and we don't even know the size of that dimension
 
Yeah, I can agree to Killah's approach. But once again, no tier 4 or 3 feats much less 2-C like OP is suggesting, lol.
 
If the stuff from the novels is not considered, should they be removed from the profiles? [The Resistances, DMC2 Dante's Ap justification].
 
that's for another CRT thread

also i mean let's not debate canonicity because matt agreed with peter. that's a done deal, so we're moving on to the other points.
 
Nightmare world being an illusion only explains one phenomena in there, while interaction and the DMC file remain untouched. Its essentially an ad hoc argument.

Also, reason why I said the allegorical names and names being literal can fit together is because of what allegory means.

"a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one" or "a symbol"

Being symbolic of what they are does not inherently contradict demon names giving them form or meaning, like the canonical manga suggests. (And the now established canon novels also suggest with their alternative Mundus)

If it was just the one thing, then I would agree with the void being an outlier/unusable, but as I have been trying to say, its more than just that contextually. There are multiple things within this tier, Im not sure what the site would actually consider them to be, though.
 
Peter's link doesn't confirm you, Zephyros, the only thing from the first novel that comes forward is the Tony Redgrave name, and a lot of it is retconned by the manga and DMC3. Meanwhile, we have absolutely nothing about the DMC2 novel in terms of canonicity.
 
It hasn't been conceded at all, the name argument is primarily rejected and the Nightmare Feat is still a point of heavy contention.
 
That canonicity is outdated, actually, I talked with LegionZero, the wiki's adm, about the novel some time ago, and he also agree that it's canon, by the same arguments I posted here

Also, they were fighting on Earth, shaking our planet is a nice Tier 6 supporting feat tho
 
Hardly anyone has actually talked about the name argument though, Id hardly consider that heavily rejected, especially when the conversation on it has not ended.
 
It really seems like you're trying to close this preemptively rather than warrant further discussion @matt
 
They never said that Deadly Fortune, for example, is canon, but Dante gave Nero a Blue Neon in it, and this neon is on his Van in DMC5

In the end of Devil May Cry Volume 2, Lucia throws on Dante's shop a map with a dagger pointing a location, this map with the dagger is on Dante's shop in DMC5 cutscenes

That's not the only evidence but the other one is a spoiler
 
The nightmare feat is not heavily contested. No one against it has offered any evidence to support their claim or ovverride the description of his powers given.

Nothing has been said of Mundus dimension feat either.

Those are the feats that should be talked about. The multiversal stuff doesn't work as no idea how to tell how big the dimensions are.
 
If we go by that interpretation then the demon world + the real world = the original universe. Which would just be universal level at best (also backed up by word of God Mundus feat, but that's another can of worms altogether).


I was more reffering to the heaven realms thing being discussed about the statue.
 
I hadnt thought of the savior as low multiversal or whatever, (that was kind of an error in translation i think) more just that the whole sunset thing was significant rather than each heaven being its own straight up universe.

Otherwise, I guess I get that? I'm not sure if I would say that the DMC universe would only be half of ours because hell and the real world were split apart, but I dont think there is evidence otherwise. Worth noting that, again, what keeps the two dimensions apart is a seal with a lesser demon's body being the material.
 
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