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Demonbane Mythos Ultimate Revision - Return of the Strongest Mecha of All Time
- Thread starter Mugen_no_Setsuna
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PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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I will look at it and stop wherever I can since it cannot be done at once
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Here's an important point for the cosmology you should look at by the way : https://vsbattles.com/threads/demon...rongest-mecha-of-all-time.150473/post-5785452
I still strongly advocate for this thread to be remade with all info in one place.
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Well, if @Mugen_no_Setsuna is not willing to cooperate, or has lost interest, I do not know what we can do here.
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We are still waiting for @Ultima_Reality's response, so there is not much we can do aside from waiting for him.
As for a remake of this thread with all information gathered in one place, sadly we do not have the time to make one, and since we are very close to finishing the revision with Ultima (he's the only who is updated with all the information provided by us), making a different thread/blog is kinda unnecessary for us. Of course, we will have a different blog explaining Demonbane's Cosmology after this thread is accepted(I'm currently writing one, but again, we do not have enough time to make another blog).
Well if there is no reply from Ultima for about two more weeks, i will proceed to continue writing a summary blog.
As for a remake of this thread with all information gathered in one place, sadly we do not have the time to make one, and since we are very close to finishing the revision with Ultima (he's the only who is updated with all the information provided by us), making a different thread/blog is kinda unnecessary for us. Of course, we will have a different blog explaining Demonbane's Cosmology after this thread is accepted(I'm currently writing one, but again, we do not have enough time to make another blog).
Well if there is no reply from Ultima for about two more weeks, i will proceed to continue writing a summary blog.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
- 5,999
This is a high tier revision, Ultima alone is not enough to pass the revision.
You need at least 3 or 4 knowledgeable staffs.
Also the thread should honestly be broken down into parts and remade.
Do the universe/multiverse first and then break the rest down tier by tier
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Not that I don't trust you, but I don't like all this 'behind the scenes' revising. Other staff need to know what's going on and to weigh in on the process too, there should be transparency regarding this. I'm not sure why this is all going on on discord and not on this thread itself, it seems a quite backwards. And forgive my imposing, but I find it hard to believe you don't have the time when all it takes is just copy-pasting the info you have already written and simply segmenting them into posts, or simply just doing it one at a time with the Mainstream multiverse as the focus first as Pein suggested. This isn't a long process, unless you have more information that wasn't placed in this or the other threads already?
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Yes, there are some new information and scaling for high-level characters involving in upgrading the Cosmology that has not been mentioned and explained in the original thread/blog.
Anyway, @Mugen_no_Setsuna just told me that if Ultima does not reply by the end of this weekend, this thread can be closed.
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Hi, sorry for not replying. You guys have to understand that I also have real life problems to deal with and I'm in constant stress due to works. It is one of the main reason why I'm started losing interest with this verse, my patience has a limit and I don't like the fact that this is getting nowhere, and it has been going on months now.
Anyway, some explanation:
1) Why we have to wait for Ultima's reply on Discord?
Answer: Because Ultima is the only person that actually bother reading my RT as a whole, meanwhile other staffs avoided Tier 1, verses like a plague, and Demonbane Mythos being one of the verses that have most shitload of information doesn't help much either. As for why we have to discuss on Discord, well it's easier to get his attention by pinging him than here. He actually active more on Discord than VBW Forum.
2) Why you don't put them into a blog?
Answer: Okay, first of all, anyone who said that "it's just a simple copy-and-paste" apparently doesn't know how fandom coding works. If it is so simple then I wouldn't put my RT in the forum format to begin with. Copy-and-paste is just one thing, the problem is, whenever I copy scans into my blog, it will just copied as plain text, and i have to redo highlight-ed parts all over again. Secondly, Japanese writers use this kind of mark "ーー" to extend their sentence, in English we will convert it into "----", and that's the problem, if you put "----" in the beginning of your sentence the code will misunderstood it as underline and ruined all of your paragraph. So the only way is to turn "----" into "---" and trust me, you seriously DON'T want to do it, just look at the sheer amount of texts and you guys will understand why.
Finally, this one is a major personal problem. My laptop is an old ass Dell Vostro 1014 which is still using Windows 7 32 Bit, and it suffered a huge lagging issue. Whenever I opened fandom editing, holy shit, if I copied too much texts, my browser will become frozen and immediately crashed. Rn I don't have enough money to even buy a new laptop, this one is too old to upgrade to Win 10. I did ask Dread to help me putting my RT into a blog but she probably dropped it or st, idk, there is no update from her so far. My friend ZwartD currently is working on the blog but as you can see, even he is struggling and did I mention that he still has college problem yet?
I hope you guys now understand why I'm sticking with forum format and totally against the idea of making a blog.
Regarding Ultima, I already gave my ultimatum in Discord, if by the end of this weekend he still refused to show up then I will leave the group chat. Feel free to close the thread then because I'm too tired of this shit already, both mentally and physically.
Anyway, some explanation:
1) Why we have to wait for Ultima's reply on Discord?
Answer: Because Ultima is the only person that actually bother reading my RT as a whole, meanwhile other staffs avoided Tier 1, verses like a plague, and Demonbane Mythos being one of the verses that have most shitload of information doesn't help much either. As for why we have to discuss on Discord, well it's easier to get his attention by pinging him than here. He actually active more on Discord than VBW Forum.
2) Why you don't put them into a blog?
Answer: Okay, first of all, anyone who said that "it's just a simple copy-and-paste" apparently doesn't know how fandom coding works. If it is so simple then I wouldn't put my RT in the forum format to begin with. Copy-and-paste is just one thing, the problem is, whenever I copy scans into my blog, it will just copied as plain text, and i have to redo highlight-ed parts all over again. Secondly, Japanese writers use this kind of mark "ーー" to extend their sentence, in English we will convert it into "----", and that's the problem, if you put "----" in the beginning of your sentence the code will misunderstood it as underline and ruined all of your paragraph. So the only way is to turn "----" into "---" and trust me, you seriously DON'T want to do it, just look at the sheer amount of texts and you guys will understand why.
Finally, this one is a major personal problem. My laptop is an old ass Dell Vostro 1014 which is still using Windows 7 32 Bit, and it suffered a huge lagging issue. Whenever I opened fandom editing, holy shit, if I copied too much texts, my browser will become frozen and immediately crashed. Rn I don't have enough money to even buy a new laptop, this one is too old to upgrade to Win 10. I did ask Dread to help me putting my RT into a blog but she probably dropped it or st, idk, there is no update from her so far. My friend ZwartD currently is working on the blog but as you can see, even he is struggling and did I mention that he still has college problem yet?
I hope you guys now understand why I'm sticking with forum format and totally against the idea of making a blog.
Regarding Ultima, I already gave my ultimatum in Discord, if by the end of this weekend he still refused to show up then I will leave the group chat. Feel free to close the thread then because I'm too tired of this shit already, both mentally and physically.
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Understandable , take care man. It seems alot of people arent too interested in a deep analysis of the verse
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If anyone can chat privately with Ultima in this forum, please let him know.
We are not gonna waste our time waiting for him any longer.
We are not gonna waste our time waiting for him any longer.
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Understandable, sounds like a lot of busy work. If that's how it has to be then just take your time.
MrKerf
He/Him- 2,089
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Amen to this one in particular.
Take care of yourself.
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Like I said before, I think it's about time you guys adapt RT in forum format. I mean, it isn't that much different from Spacebattles anyway, so why not?
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2 days left. I'm gonna start packing my stuffs and prepare to gtfo of this shitty revision thread.
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Based from Ultima post with Outerverse starting at High 1-A and original tiering conclusion, I could see things until layer stages/Sea of Ether being High 1-A
It is probable that Mugen (and above) would be Tier 0 for seemingly being above the possible extension layer of stages or a layers near them like sea of ether.
If Mugen's case is accepted, Sea of Chaos and above could be Tier 0 in higher layer
Even without Mugen, I could see the Sea of Chaos and above could be Tier 0, similar to the past reason from High 1-A from lower 1-A transcendence.
The throne could be a higher layer of tier 0.
ダイン・フリークス SS said:
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Thank you Elizhaa-san.
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This makes sense to me.
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Wdym not very soon? Like even on Discord?
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So he can't even reply on Discord as well?
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Alright, this took a while, so gonna make a summary of what I see here, both for myself and for whoever else comes into this thread to chime in. From what I gather, Demonbane's cosmology starts with:
This is High 1-B.
Then after this hierarchy of universes, there is the Hyperdimension, and directly ontop of it, there's a "hyper-hyper-timespace."
From this viewpoint, the entire nest of universes can be viewed from an outside perspective. We know this because the text states that Demonbane is fighting "across the entirety of a moment of an eternity, across the next eternity beyond the eternity, across the infinite chains of eternities." "An eternity beyond eternity" referring to how a single moment of a higher universe can contain infinite spacetime of a lower universe.
And, given how the first excerpt I've posted is written, it seems that the nested universes are the only universes which the Demonbane multiverse consists of (So the universe only has hierarchical worlds at this level, not parallel ones). Here we see Demonbane and Liber Legis fighting through a few of these universes, going higher and higher up until they reach the Hyper-hypertimespace:
So, the Hyperdimension and the Hyper-Hypertimespace (Dumbass name) are Low 1-A and 1-A, respectively.
In this same scene, though, it seems that Nyarlathotep gets sick of watching Demonbane and Liber Legis fighting and decides to rewind the whole thing:
The translation renders her initial comment as "it's getting a repetitive pattern," which is a bit vague on its own. That said, the respect thread also gave us the raws for the statement, and in those, the exact term used is "千日手", which to my understanding is a rule in shogi deeming that, if two players become stuck in a position where their moves can repeat infinitely with no winner, the match ends in a draw.
So it seems the point being made is that, even once they reached the Hyper-hypertimespace, Demonbane and Liber Legis would continue to go higher and higher, forever. If that's the case, then the verse has 1-A+ structures, as well.
Beyond all of these structures is the Outerverse, which is the innards of Yog-Sothoth, and to it, it seems, the VN attributes a few quotes pulled verbatim from Lovecraft's original stories, namely:
Given that, I'd say High 1-A is an appropriate tier. That said, there is also this tidbit:
The respect thread attributes this description to the Sea of Ether, which it purports encompasses the whole cosmology, including the Outerverse and the like, so this gives off the impression that those realms aren't so far above the 1-A+ structures that they reach High 1-A (Since by then they're still bound by dimensions, and as such their transcendence over lesser worlds isn't that fundamental, just one higher infinity). However, there's also this:
So, I guess that's... "nonexistent spacetime"? And by extension nonexistent dimensions. That may solve the issue, since by then those wouldn't be conventional dimensional spaces at all.
So, separately from all the above, I should mention that Demonbane also includes this:
That is to say, a hierarchy of fiction within fiction. There is a backstage serving as the universe, and even if you were to destroy this stage, beyond it there is just yet another stage. Other quotes seem to reiterate this:
That said, I'm not exactly sure what the baseline layer of this hierarchy is supposed to be here. Given the proposals of the OP, it seems that the argument being made is that the stages are stacked infinitely ontop of the realms mentioned above (The Outerverse and etc), but I'm not exactly sure what makes that so.
There's the stuff with the Lotus Throne, too, but I'm not sure what exactly is it that makes it above all the other parts of the cosmology, either. I guess the supporters can clarify that part for me, but, for now, the above is what I gathered from reading the RT.
This is High 1-B.
Then after this hierarchy of universes, there is the Hyperdimension, and directly ontop of it, there's a "hyper-hyper-timespace."
From this viewpoint, the entire nest of universes can be viewed from an outside perspective. We know this because the text states that Demonbane is fighting "across the entirety of a moment of an eternity, across the next eternity beyond the eternity, across the infinite chains of eternities." "An eternity beyond eternity" referring to how a single moment of a higher universe can contain infinite spacetime of a lower universe.
And, given how the first excerpt I've posted is written, it seems that the nested universes are the only universes which the Demonbane multiverse consists of (So the universe only has hierarchical worlds at this level, not parallel ones). Here we see Demonbane and Liber Legis fighting through a few of these universes, going higher and higher up until they reach the Hyper-hypertimespace:
So, the Hyperdimension and the Hyper-Hypertimespace (Dumbass name) are Low 1-A and 1-A, respectively.
In this same scene, though, it seems that Nyarlathotep gets sick of watching Demonbane and Liber Legis fighting and decides to rewind the whole thing:
The translation renders her initial comment as "it's getting a repetitive pattern," which is a bit vague on its own. That said, the respect thread also gave us the raws for the statement, and in those, the exact term used is "千日手", which to my understanding is a rule in shogi deeming that, if two players become stuck in a position where their moves can repeat infinitely with no winner, the match ends in a draw.
So it seems the point being made is that, even once they reached the Hyper-hypertimespace, Demonbane and Liber Legis would continue to go higher and higher, forever. If that's the case, then the verse has 1-A+ structures, as well.
Beyond all of these structures is the Outerverse, which is the innards of Yog-Sothoth, and to it, it seems, the VN attributes a few quotes pulled verbatim from Lovecraft's original stories, namely:
Given that, I'd say High 1-A is an appropriate tier. That said, there is also this tidbit:
The respect thread attributes this description to the Sea of Ether, which it purports encompasses the whole cosmology, including the Outerverse and the like, so this gives off the impression that those realms aren't so far above the 1-A+ structures that they reach High 1-A (Since by then they're still bound by dimensions, and as such their transcendence over lesser worlds isn't that fundamental, just one higher infinity). However, there's also this:
So, I guess that's... "nonexistent spacetime"? And by extension nonexistent dimensions. That may solve the issue, since by then those wouldn't be conventional dimensional spaces at all.
So, separately from all the above, I should mention that Demonbane also includes this:
That is to say, a hierarchy of fiction within fiction. There is a backstage serving as the universe, and even if you were to destroy this stage, beyond it there is just yet another stage. Other quotes seem to reiterate this:
That said, I'm not exactly sure what the baseline layer of this hierarchy is supposed to be here. Given the proposals of the OP, it seems that the argument being made is that the stages are stacked infinitely ontop of the realms mentioned above (The Outerverse and etc), but I'm not exactly sure what makes that so.
There's the stuff with the Lotus Throne, too, but I'm not sure what exactly is it that makes it above all the other parts of the cosmology, either. I guess the supporters can clarify that part for me, but, for now, the above is what I gathered from reading the RT.
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Thank you Ultima for your comment, really appreciated it. That makes everyone happy.
Currently we are still discussing in Discord, but it's close to the end.
Currently we are still discussing in Discord, but it's close to the end.
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Thanks for clarifying on the High 1-A stuff, I'm fine with this.
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We still need to go through the True Cosmos/Infinite Spiral, which encompasses the endless aeons and Outerverse, described as something beyond the Ultimate Gate, and the ending and beginning point of an eternity and the linkpoint of eternities, before entering the Games and Stages,
The Outerverse has its own set of multiverse, although the hierarchy of universes are not clear-cut as, and more into exotic nature than Gunshin Kyoshuu. the fight in Strange Aeons is still the precursor of the Cosmic Fight in the aforementioned novel. Both Master Therion and Daijuuji Kurou did confirm they would and will fight forever, destroying and creating everything on their path as both sides cannot end another without the Shining Trapezohedron,
On a sidenote, we have the ten emanations of Sephiroth consitutes the universe and the Tree of Life spans to even Outerverse, as seen from how Al Azif uses the ten emanations in Outerverse to draw power into Demonbane,
It is unlikely the multiverse within Outerverse can push the structure to at least a layer to H1A, but the Sephiroth is definitely the more fundamental level of reality from its description that constitutes the whole structure, contrast to the Outerverse being the highest end of the whole structure.
We need to go through loop-worlds (aka a singular cyclic world that is one amongst endless aeons) in the Ring of Yog-Sothoth because it is not an infinite repitition, but a neverending cyclic series of worlds after worlds, with similar people being seperate individuals,
Is there a significance for these loop-worlds? Throughout the first game, it was confirmed a cycle or a loop-world is always built on the foundation of previous ones, and the contents of the latter will be carried to the next one. An example is the event of Sector 13 destroyed by Zs-a-wia in Taidou was carried into Zanma Taisei/Kishin Houkou, despite the Al never came across Hadou Zaibatsu or Arkham City until Aeon was destroyed in the prologue of Zanma Taisei,
In many ways, both metaphorically and literally, the loop-worlds were piling and accumulating for every iteration, with the last iteration exists and contributes as a subset to the next iteration, yet this arbitrary number of accumulations does not affect the functionality of Ouroboros Rondo and the looping mechanism of Infinite Spiral in any sense, and moreover, there is this,
(2:00 - 5:02)
(1:44 -6:30)
Whenever Demonbane was near and after its defeat, the Ouroboros Rondo or the looping mechanism will come, restart and begin a new world, it goes without a Cycle/an Eternity encompasses even the Outerverse as that is the final battlefield in each loop-world for Demonbane and Liber Legis. Yet, the mechanism still enroaches to that, resets everything with Demonbane is sent back its starting point, on a wasteland of countless crosses that hang the corpse of each defeated Demonbane - each failed cycle where Daijuuji Kurou and Al Azif was defeated.
(An example for this accumulation and piling of worlds upon worlds, or at least respective contents and events, can be found on the damaged eye of Liber Legis, caused by a punch of Demonbane in the second part of Ouroboros Rondo. Furthermore, the ending sequence of the PS2 Version also shows the corpse of many Demonbanes)
A Cycle/an Eternity surpasses the Outerverse, akin to a greater structure to the highest end of a lesser structure.
EDIT:
Nevermind, it seems my idea of loop-worlds are more akin to ordinal number than cardinal number, so I'm not sure if this can warrant for a tier-up.
The second part of Ouroboros Rondo shows the climax where both Demonbane and Liber Legis ended in mutual destruction, and the Ouroboros Rondo functioned differently than normal looping, because an entirely new beginning has to be created as the lynchpin that is Master Therion was destroyed, hence, the existing neverending series of loop-worlds cannot continue on anymore,
Ruri Route's True Ending
Leica Route's Ending
The example from Ruri Route and Leica Route prompts me to bring up Ring of Yog-Sothoth/Garden of Nyarlathotep and whatever is beyond again, more context can be found here,
https://vsbattles.com/threads/demonbane-mythos-official-respect-thread.138905/post-4893849
The idea is, there are categorizations or collections of loop-worlds - the Ring of Yog-Sothoth is a neverending series of worlds that will continue for endless aeons until Master Therion was destroyed (hence, the world Ruri Route's Normal Ending is still trapped within its own Ring of Yog-Sothoth). Under the circumstance if Master Therion was destroyed, a new beginning or a new Ring of Yog-Sothoth has to be created, and that was too, still a subset of a larger structure within Nyarlathotep's domination.
Regardless of any world freed from their respective Ring of Yog-Sothoth, is still trapped within the Infinite Spiral (such as the worlds after Ruri Route's True Ending and Leica Route's Ending), and likewise, the multitudes of Rings of Yog-Sothoth (evidently from the difference of events in Taidou and Gunshin, respective events in Ruri Route and Leica Route, and Ouroboros Rondo) are also a part of Infinite Spiral, described to go on infinitely that shows the Infinite Spiral's qualititve difference to the next structure below on the hierarchy,
The Ring of Yog-Sothoth will continue to exist and contain an endless and arbitrary accumulation of loop-worlds or Cycles or Eternities until Master Therion is destroyed so it is a possible candidates for more levels into H1A.
Naturally, the Infinite Spiral/True Cosmos should be at least more levels into H1A for being the foundation and fundamental structure for the mechanism, the Ring of Yog-Sothoth and what-else to exist, function and accumulate forever without ever able to exit the boundary of a True Cosmos, which hopefully should fit this type of transcendence to Outerverse and its larger structures,
[Blood Other]
Then an inadequate [Game Keeper] like Another Blood recreates the Infinite Spiral when she extracts the memories of Al Azif as infinite stories into a part of her universe or stage - [Blood Other] that views that recreate of Infinite Spiral as fiction or dream, and a scenario on a stagetheater,
To solidfy Another Blood's Universe or [Blood Other], you can go check on this post to have some idea on Memories of Al Azif, but essentially, it is the stories (which are geniune universes and worlds in the context of Demonbane, alongside its metafictional usage) of all that was and had transpired in the Infinite Spiral as dream and fiction also,
[Mechanical Nightmare]
The same Memories of Al Azif, and the Stage of [Blood Other] was trivialized into insigificance and dream by Clockwork Phantom's Automataverse, which is a higher Stage that encompasses [Blood Other], where the difference between reality and dream in Demonbane as ∞ and 0, akin to how Father Ny (an avatar of Nyarlathotep) views the events in Infinite Spiral in Al Azif Route as a mere dream, or non-existent and inconsequential to him,
Father Ny also repeats the same dialogue as Another Blood, to show off the superiority of the his Stage to the girl's Stage being trivialized into infinestimal by the sea of mechanical parts,
Interestingly, when Clockwork Phantom emerges from Demonbane Two-Sword, its parts were said to come from the farthest ends of infinity and further beyond and even further beyond (if the definition of 尚も indicates anything). We have a massive repetition of Clockwork Phantom's gears, which highly implies the gears are continuing to emanate from deeper levels of infinities, until all that was is a massive repetition of the word "Chaos" as the actual substance of Clockwork Phantom is coming out to form its Chaos essence as an an avatar of Nyarlathotep.
尚も(ナオモ)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク
デジタル大辞泉 - 尚もの用語解説 - ［副］その上まだ。あいかわらず。「深更、尚も議論が続く」[類語]未だ・矢張り・なお・いまだ・いまだに・今なお・今もって・依然・未然・未発・相変わらず・やっぱり・なおかつ・まだまだ・いまだ嘗て・終ついぞ・今のところ・今に至るも
尚も（なおも）とは？ 意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書
尚も（なおも）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。［副］その上まだ。あいかわらず。「深更、—議論が続く」 - goo国語辞書は30万9千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。
dictionary.goo.ne.jp
「尚も」で始まる言葉 - 辞書すべて - goo辞書
尚もで始まる言葉の辞書すべての検索結果。なおも【尚も】,なおもって【尚以て】,なおも【尚も】 - goo辞書は無料で使える辞書・辞典の検索サービスです。
dictionary.goo.ne.jp
The fact that from the perspective of Daijuuji Kurou that the gears are still emanating endlessly and Nyarlathotep called Laban to come here after transcending space and time, despite still affirm they are still within this world are highly suggesting the [Mechanical Nightmare] (that has encompassed or became the True Cosmos) houses uncountable layers of infinities beyond [Blood Other] upon its emergence, hence, many, many layers layers H1A.
Yet, when Clockwork Phantom was about to engage Demonbane, Nyarlathotep speaks of an unending hierarchy of Stages and Games that even if the trio manages to shatter one Gameboard, there will be always a bigger and greater Game and Stage beyond for them for them to be unable to escape, and the trio was unfazed as they will shatter everything Nyarlathotep can throw on them on the "final act" of [Mechanical Nightmare].
As we can see from [Blood Other], the greater Stage and Game will always trivializes the last to insignifance or as dreams (nonexistent) to the next. It is worth to mention again eternal battle is a common theme and occurrence in Demonbane Mythos, so both sides are ready for an eternal battle where Demonbane will continue to transcend the unending hierarchy of Stage and Game, and in response, Nyarlathotep will arrange and fight harder in the greater Stage and Game until there was a clear victor in [Mechanical Nightmare].
Although the battle was rapidly hastened due to Kuzaku, Another Blood and Two-Sword's awakening as Elder Gods, the fact both sides are going for an eternal battle in which both sides will ascend to higher and higher levels of Stage and Game makes [Mechanical Nightmare] is not only soild on infinite layers H1A, with this hierarchy can never go beyond the bound of [Mechanical Nightmare] or True Cosmos, this is should be Baseline 0.
I will mention again this battle takes place only in a single world as Nyarlathotep desires for one decisive battle against Demonbane, Al and Kurou in Kishin Hishou, for only one Demonbane can exist in a universe, so the unending hierarchy of Games and Stages will never go beyond the bound of [Mechanical Nightmare] to set the foundation for [Mechanical Nightmare] and likewise, a True Cosmos to be Baseline 0.
The Trichiliocosm is the transcendent structure beyond True Cosmos, where the Evil Gods and Good Gods are waging wars across all of creation. There are at least infinite x infinite True Cosmoses in Trichiliocosm - as Athleta Aeternum summons infinite Demonbanes and Lemuria Impact 000 is infinite x infinite Lemuria Impact on Clockwork Phantom, a fact is Demonbane only uses its right arm for Lemuria Impact, so for any number of Lemuria Impact must be a corresponding number of Demonbanes, and each hails from a respective universe.
Lemuria Impact 000
(35:09 - 35:22)
As much this sounds like a higher layer 0, there are good reasons for Trichiliocosm to be far beyond than a glance. Because aside from the known unending hierarchy of Stages and Games in [Mechanical Nightmare], Nyarlathotep also has countless more Games and Stages for the newest trio of Elder Gods to fight in the eternal battle of Good and Evil that will continue forever, and it is likely to expect this larger set of Games and Stages are transcending to another like [Blood Other] and [Mechanical Nightmare].
And from afar, Nyarlathotep was watching of all that were transpiring in the [Game of Chaos] that he set up, hence, this [Game of Chaos] that is the collective whole of countless Games and Stages beyond the world of Kishin Hishou should be many, many layers 0.
Regardless how far-reaching Nyarlathotep's [Game of Chaos], it is unlikely to encompass all of Trichiliocosm even if other Elder Gods and Evil Gods were not introduced yet, due to the battlefield between Elder God Kurou and Elder God Al was somewhere does not belong to World of Human, as can seen here when the two Elder Gods assigned Demonbane and Dunsany to send Kuzaku to the World of Human away from the endless battle between gods. Since that world was in ruined, I will call it the Ruined World for sake of distinction.
(3:20 - 7:33)
With the introduction of other Elder Gods and Evil Gods, it is clear only a small number of Elder Gods were fighting Nyarlathotep, and there are more Elder Gods in Dreamland or Glyu-Vho and fighting elsewhere, such as Nodens, Carter and Voyagers versus Mediushia and her sisters that are evil counterparts to the former, so ∞ x ∞ True Cosmoses is far from being the entirety, or at least that is only the World of Human part of the Trichiliocosm.
In any case, I will place Trichiliocosm to be many, many layers 0 for the time being.
As for what is next, I made a thread about the three protagonists in DYN Freaks, where Yoguruma Mugen was used as a prominent example of powerscaling, due to her nature as (I), the creator of DYN World that is a replica of the former Trichiliocosm destroyed by Deadend and what-else
In short, Yoguruma Mugen should be even more layers Tier 0, for her qualitative superiority to Trichiliocosm, and this would be scaled to Azana Hatsumi, and Narukami Chikage. Likewise, the scaling will be applied to Nero (Ennea), Master Therion, Daijuuji Kurou, Al Azif, Neo Demonbane, Neo Liber Legis, Great Old Ones, Star Warriors, etc and to anyone, anything comparable or stronger than them.
I'm afraid this is the endpoint for now, will continue on once we get these done,
TLDR Tier Proposal;
- The Multiverse in Outerverse = H1A (A hierarchy of universes in Outerverse, serving as the battlefield for a precursor of Cosmic Fight)
- Tree of Life and Ten Emanations = H1A (The fundamental domain that constitutes the cosmos and reaches to even the Outerverse)
- The Unending Cycles/Eternities/Loop-Worlds = Baseline H1A (A cycle or a loop-world encompasses the Outerverse, and continues to accumulate the contents from last loop-world)
- Ring of Yog-Sothoth/Garden of Nyarlathotep = Higher Layer H1A (The unending accumulation of worlds upon worlds as subset to the next will never have any meaningful on the structure until Master Therion is dead somehow)
- Infinite Spiral = Higher Layer H1A (The structure for all multitudes of failed and ongoing Rings of Yog-Sothoth, the underlying mechanism of Ouroboros Rondo to function and exist within as a part of)
- Memories of Al Azif = Higher Layer H1A (The content of Infinite Spiral exist as memories and stories within herself, which can emanate countless things ceaselessly given the circumstance)
- Another Blood's Cosmos - [Blood Other] = Higher Layer H1A (A stage encompasses a recreation of Infinite Spiral as a backdrop akin to a script can be altered by the whim of the author or Another Blood)
- Clockwork Phantom's Emergence = Many Layers or Possible Infinite Layers H1A (It encompasses and trivializes [Blood Other] as fiction and dream, and the parts of Clockwork Phantom were emanating from uncountable deeper and further reaches of infinities until forming into Clockwork Phantom and the Automataverse)
- True Cosmos = Many Layers H1A or Possible Baseline 0 (The universe that was assimilated by Clockwork Phantom only after the Deus Machina finished its emergence, so the uncountable reaches of infinities should be within a True Cosmos)
- Hierarchy of Games and Stages = Infinite Layers H1A (An unlimited layers where the next encompasses and trivializes the last to insignficane that will persist for eternity for an eternal battle between Demonbane and Clockwork Phantom)
- Clockwork Phantom's Automataverse - [Mechanical Nightmare] = Baseline 0 (The large Stage that serves as the battlefield for the said eternal battle, with Nyarlathotep deadset on defeating Demonbane, that only one can exist in a universe so the Hierarchy of Games and Stages will on forever only within a [Mechanical Nightmare])
- Game of Chaos = 0 (The collective of countless Games and Stages beyond a True Cosmos, where Kuzaku, Another Blood and Two-Sword fight ceaselessly to undo the scheme of Nyarlathotep for threatening the world)
- Trichiliocosm = 0 (The battlefield between Good Gods and Evil Gods, where the Game of Chaos and ∞ x ∞ True Cosmoses are but a part of the larger entirety)
- Mugen's Innervere = 0 (A minor realm of Mugen where a replica of Trichiliocosm or DYN World is being seen as screen, chessboard and display on this world)
- Sphinx (Base Form) = 0 (He nonchalantly enters Mugen's Innerverse and plays chess on a board that represents the DYN World with Mugen)
- Yoguruma Mugen's "Classroom" Realm = 0 (It traps even Sphinx as Thousand Faces, and contains the corpse of countless dead Sphinx to signify the cyclic destruction and creation by Mugen)
- The End of the World = 0 (Where Mugen exists as the identity-less and pronoun-less (I), who defines the logical framework that defines another logical framework until the formation of the Yoguruma Mugen we know until the creation of DYN World)
Yoguruma Mugen/Azana Hatsumi/Narukami Chikage = 0 (Throne of Azathoth is described as "the end of the end of the world", a hint to its fundamentality to the "End of the Word")
Lastly, a small glimpe into the next part of the hierarchy far above even Yoguruma Mugen,
More on Evil Gods in Demonbane Mythos confirmed to be similar to Plato's Theory of Forms, whose countless forms are unique to each living beings as phantom projections to fragmented aspect of the incomprehensible entirety impossible to be perceived by humans or magicians.
Yet, even Cthulhu, whose a single avatar was unfathomably beyond the most powerful mortal magicians, was barely able to perceive his cousins - other Great Old Ones, let alone the Outer Gods.
Yet, even Cthulhu, whose a single avatar was unfathomably beyond the most powerful mortal magicians, was barely able to perceive his cousins - other Great Old Ones, let alone the Outer Gods.
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For clarification, do we not consider the Throne of Azathoth and the Lotus Throne to be the same or different concepts? I was under the impression Azathoth's Throne was just name-changed to the Lotus Throne in Zanma Taisen to fit with the Buddhist themeing of the novel.
As for the proposals themselves, I'm not too knowledgeable on Tier 0's layering logic but everything up to Ring of Yog seems fine, and the Trilchilocosm + Throne being Tier 0 and up makes sense with what I'm reading and know. I'm neutral on the rest but they seem sound.
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Throne of Azathoth # Lotus Throne. Lotus Throne is the super-reality domain of Vortex Blaster Demonbane, i.e the Anantah Mandala, being the highest and above all things in existence, even higher than the Throne of Azathoth.
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Okay, thanks for clarifying. I was always a little confused between the two but it stands to reason it'd be higher considering Deadend's feat of doing away with Azahoth.
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They are different entities. Throne of Azahoth is the symbol of authority and power of Azathoth. The Lotus Throne is the core of Deadend and its Anantah Mandala, as Deadend is described as the Enlightened One in the novel.
I am as clueless as the layering logic in Tier 0, but Another Blood's [Blood Other] views a recreation of Infinite Spiral as dream and script, Clockwork Phantom's [Mechanical Nightmare] also trivializes [Blood Other] in a similar manner while still encompassing [Blood Other]. In Demonbane, the difference of hierarchical relation or reality and dream is ∞ and 0 (or nonexistent as dreaming foams), so I guess this should fit the bills for layers Tier 0.
In any case, I fixed and changed a few thing in my proposal so it is now like this,
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