What would be Demonbane's tier based on this?

[NIK_FARIS]

Was asked to comment here, and based on my discussions with OP and his friends in discord, here is the tiering for the structures IMO:

• Universe: A Low 2-C structure being Infinite and Eternal.

Infinite size universe is high 3-A so does universe here also include time?

• Multiverse: A High 1-B structure containing infinite levels of transcending hierarchial Universes, with each containing an infinite number of lower Universes.

Universe embedded in another universe continues endless. Yeah, high 1-B check out

• 
  
• Hyper Dimension: A Low 1-A structure beyond the Multiverse from where all Universes are seen simultaneously as bubbles.

Okay

• Outer Universe: A 1-A structure outside the Hyper Dimension and being beyond Space and Time while being Undimensioned and housing all Great Old Ones.

Okay

• Cycle/Loop/Eternity: A 1-A structure beyond the Outer Universe and containing the latter as part of the Cycle.
• Ring of Yog-Sothoth: A 1-A structure beyond the Cycle/Loop/Eternity and containing an indefinite number of all previous and current Cycles/Loops/Eternities.
• Garden of Nyarlathotep: A 1-A structure beyond the Ring of Yog-Sothoth and containing an Infinite Number of Rings.
• Infinite Spiral: A 1-A structure beyond the Garden of Nyarlathotep where even the Garden is just a mere aspect/fraction of it.
• Game: A 1-A structure beyond the Infinite Spiral, which can contain structures on a Larger Scale than the Infinite Spiral.

I can see 1-A here though I am a bit confuse.

• Games: A 1-A+ structure containing Indefinite layers of Games, with each Game being beyond another Game.
• Stage: A 1-A+ structure beyond the Games and containing all layers of them.
• Stages: A 1-A+ structure containing Indefinite layers of Stages, with each Stage being beyond another Stage.
• Gameboard: A 1-A+ structure beyond the stages and containing all layers of them.

So, kind like high degree of 1-A+ here which make sense

• Sea of Chaos: A High 1-A structure due to being stated as the True Infinity in relation to which all of the Cosmology is just a mere dream while itself being a completely inaccessible realm of Pure Nothingness beyond Duality and Distinction where everything is one and same and from where everything emerged from and where everything will return to eventually.

It is inaccessible and complete predate every logical hierarchy of 1-A+. I guess that check out

 

[RM97]

Infinite size universe is high 3-A so does universe here also include time?

Yes (which is why I mentioned Eternal since every Universe is an Eternity in the Verse), on top of the fact that there is a Non-Euclidean Spiritual Dimension in the Universe that is unbound by 3-D laws and where the true forms of Deus Machina (Such as Ambrose) reside as a Mass of Superlogic while its 3-D manifestation is just a Shallow Reflection of its true self from the Dimension.

I can see 1-A here though I am a bit confuse.

It's kinda like the same as the Multiverse part but now in 1-A level.

 

[zero0031]

seems pretty good but i have some questions rn

• Outer Universe: A 1-A structure outside the Hyper Dimension and being beyond Space and Time while being Undimensioned and housing all Great Old Ones.

if Outer Universe is entitled to 1a, i mean it needs 1a level to reach the baseline universe of Outer Universe

• Cycle/Loop/Eternity: A 1-A structure beyond the Outer Universe and containing the latter as part of the Cycle.

then why a cycle, which encompasses all infinite higher hierarchical universes above the Outer Universe as a whole is still at 1a ? i think it should be 1a+ right away from here

• Infinite Spiral: A 1-A structure beyond the Garden of Nyarlathotep where even the Garden is just a mere aspect/fraction of it.
• Game: A 1-A structure beyond the Infinite Spiral, which can contain structures on a Larger Scale than the Infinite Spiral.
• Games: A 1-A+ structure containing Indefinite layers of Games, with each Game being beyond another Game.
• Stage: A 1-A+ structure beyond the Games and containing all layers of them.
• Stages: A 1-A+ structure containing Indefinite layers of Stages, with each Stage being beyond another Stage.
• Gameboard: An 1-A+ structure beyond the stages and containing all layers of them.

What? structure beyond what? as far as i could remember a whole Klen bottle (or infinte spiral whatsoever) is a game, a gameboard or a stage, and the different is vague, it looks more like theyre same shit. In Kishin Hishou didnt Nya comeback and make a stage/gameboard out of her broken Klein bottle ? her game can involve more than just a Klein bottle but i dont think this will add up a shitload of layers that could raise the cosmology from 1a to 1a+, at the end of the day theyre pretty much the same. As for the "What lies beyond Game (Board) is also another Game (Board). What lies beyond the Stage is also another Stage.", i think it just simply implies that the Nya will always come back with new games as Kurou and AI challenged her, and will be got beaten again, its just like a never ending cycle.

• Sea of Chaos: A High 1-A structure due to being stated as the True Infinity in relation to which all of the Cosmology is just a mere dream while itself being a completely inaccessible realm of Pure Nothingness beyond Duality and Distinction where everything is one and same and from where everything emerged from and where everything will return to eventually.

"Chaos is the True Infinity and it is the very essence of Nyarlathotep as well as being the Court of Azathoth – the True Universe of Evil Outer Gods."
Does that mean all creation, the cosmology, and all Outer Gods are the same ? that would be a mess since Nya is already the chaos itself.

I think we need to make this clear that all things in Demonbane-verse including creation, Outer Gods and even Garden of Azathoth/Chaos where Outer gods can twist the everything at will, is just fantasy in Azathoth's dream. And let's not forget that Nya itself already transcend the Klein Bottles, which has its own infinitely-loopedly infinitely-hierarchical universes and dimensions, or any kind of extensions of the stage or whatever, she can just dismiss them like nothing, i remembered when 2 Elder Gods showed up before Kurou and AI who was floating between worlds, it describes something like this

"Even surrounded by the light that threatens to obliterate everything, even surrounded by darkness that that threatens to consume everything, her warmth and softness are with me"

The light and darkness here is obviously the aura given off from the energy (or something like that, the same with those of Shining Trapezohedron) of Elder gods, and their aura could already erase the world from existence, "everything" here most likely implies the Klein Bottle or so, and Nya could fight against them (despite not in her strongest form), though scared and would always lose to them but it's still the fact that she could fight back, so i think Klein bottles doesnt mean SHIT to beings like Outer gods in general. That should be H1a for Outer Gods like Nya, as for Azathoth, everything including Outer Gods is nothing but fantasy to his dream which is big af so... likely tier 0 ?

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

The light and darkness here is obviously the aura given off from the energy (or something like that, the same with those of Shining Trapezohedron) of Elder gods, and their aura could already erase the world from existence, "everything" here most likely implies the Klein Bottle or so, and Nya could fight against them (despite not in her strongest form), though scared and would always lose to them but it's still the fact that she could fight back, so i think Klein bottles doesnt mean SHIT to beings like Outer gods in general. That should be H1a for Outer Gods like Nya, as for Azathoth, everything including Outer Gods is nothing but fantasy to his dream which is big af so... likely tier 0 ?

How can Azathoth likely Tier 0 if he couldn't even erase the Elder Gods?

 

[zero0031]

How can Azathoth likely Tier 0 if he couldn't even erase the Elder Gods?

forgot about that, ok no tier 0

 

[ZwartD]

seems pretty good but i have some questions rn

if Outer Universe is entitled to 1a, i mean it needs 1a level to reach the baseline universe of Outer Universe

then why a cycle, which encompasses all infinite higher hierarchical universes above the Outer Universe as a whole is still at 1a ? i think it should be 1a+ right away from here

Well i forgot about this part, i thought being infinitely-layered into 1A wasn't enough for 1A+
In that case we can put the cycle at 1A+ IMO

What? structure beyond what? as far as i could remember a whole Klen bottle (or infinte spiral whatsoever) is a game, a gameboard or a stage, and the different is vague, it looks more like theyre same shit. In Kishin Hishou didnt Nya comeback and make a stage/gameboard out of her broken Klein bottle ? her game can involve more than just a Klein bottle but i dont think this will add up a shitload of layers that could raise the cosmology from 1a to 1a+, at the end of the day theyre pretty much the same. As for the "What lies beyond Game (Board) is also another Game (Board). What lies beyond the Stage is also another Stage.", i think it just simply implies that the Nya will always come back with new games as Kurou and AI challenged her, and will be got beaten again, its just like a never ending cycle.

The Stage and GameBoards will stay at least 1A+ for the reason you gave above though, with the entire universe being only a "backstage"

"Chaos is the True Infinity and it is the very essence of Nyarlathotep as well as being the Court of Azathoth – the True Universe of Evil Outer Gods."
Does that mean all creation, the cosmology, and all Outer Gods are the same ? that would be a mess since Nya is already the chaos itself.

I think we need to make this clear that all things in Demonbane-verse including creation, Outer Gods and even Garden of Azathoth/Chaos where Outer gods can twist the everything at will, is just fantasy in Azathoth's dream. And let's not forget that Nya itself already transcend the Klein Bottles, which has its own infinitely-loopedly infinitely-hierarchical universes and dimensions, or any kind of extensions of the stage or whatever, she can just dismiss them like nothing, i remembered when 2 Elder Gods showed up before Kurou and AI who was floating between worlds, it describes something like this

The light and darkness here is obviously the aura given off from the energy (or something like that, the same with those of Shining Trapezohedron) of Elder gods, and their aura could already erase the world from existence, "everything" here most likely implies the Klein Bottle or so, and Nya could fight against them (despite not in her strongest form), though scared and would always lose to them but it's still the fact that she could fight back, so i think Klein bottles doesnt mean SHIT to beings like Outer gods in general. That should be H1a for Outer Gods like Nya, as for Azathoth, everything including Outer Gods is nothing but fantasy to his dream which is big af so... likely tier 0 ?

Okay I (or we) didn't notice this part, yeah putting Azathoth on the same level with his children aka other Outer Gods was wrong, the Sea Of Chaos or Garden of Universe stays H1A for the same reason.
Azathoth's dream includes the Garden of Universe, thus it is at least H1A, if not very high into H1A

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Anyway, based on what i have read, this is my draft:
Nyarlathotep: H1A
Azathoth: At least H1A
Elder Gods: H1A due to being the same existence as Nyarlathotep and sealed the Court of Azathoth. However Kuzaku and Another Blood should be weaker than their parents because they just awakened (FYI Clockwork Phantom was still messing around with them in its first form and only went SERIOUS against original Demonbane Trio)
Great Old Ones: 1A
Demonbane (Kishin Houkou - Al's Route) : H1A (Kurou should also H1A because he stopped Nya's Chaos from ever corrupting the universe and fused 2 Trapezohedrons into one by his sheer will alone)
Liber Legis (Kishin Houkou): 1A+ due to transcending the Great Old Ones in Outer Universe

I'm not very good at making tier so please help me re-evaluate if possible. Will cover them in my RT soon though.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It is best to ask someone who is a expert of the tiering system to formulate a opinion.
@Ultima_Reality comes to mind

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well i forgot about this part, i thought being infinitely-layered into 1A wasn't enough for 1A+
In that case we can put the cycle at 1A+ IMO

Not sure on this if the structure of the cosmology is being treated as Tier High 1B and not necessarily 1A+

 

[RM97]

then why a cycle, which encompasses all infinite higher hierarchical universes above the Outer Universe as a whole is still at 1a ? i think it should be 1a+ right away from here

Here is the thing. The Outer Universe is just a part of the Cycle, specifically the end/beginning of the loop, since it is the place for the Final Showdown between Kurou and Therion. There are no "infinite higher hierarchical universes above the Outer Universe" in a cycle. It's Outer Universe -> Cycle/Loop, and not Outer Universe -> infinite higher hierarchical universes -> Cycle/Loop. Those "infinite higher hierarchical universes" are the Multiverse itself, beyond which lies the Hyper Dimension, and beyond which lies the Outer Universe. Unless there is any evidence of the Outer Universe having "infinite higher hierarchical universes" which was not shown to me during my discussion with OP.

What? structure beyond what? as far as i could remember a whole Klen bottle (or infinte spiral whatsoever) is a game, a gameboard or a stage, and the different is vague, it looks more like theyre same shit. In Kishin Hishou didnt Nya comeback and make a stage/gameboard out of her broken Klein bottle ? her game can involve more than just a Klein bottle but i dont think this will add up a shitload of layers that could raise the cosmology from 1a to 1a+, at the end of the day theyre pretty much the same. As for the "What lies beyond Game (Board) is also another Game (Board). What lies beyond the Stage is also another Stage.", i think it just simply implies that the Nya will always come back with new games as Kurou and AI challenged her, and will be got beaten again, its just like a never ending cycle.

I discussed this stuff with OP, and if you notice, I placed the Game, and the Stage at the same level, aka 1-A, stating a Game can contain stuff on a larger scale than the Infinite Spiral. I don't think a game, a gameboard, or a stage are the same, but I can say that a game and gameboard are the same given the quote, but then again, a Stage is different from a Game/Gameboard given the quote from the "The final act of the play [Clockwork Phantom (Mechanical Nightmare)]" as well as the fact that they specify how Game is a Gameboard in the quote [Game (Board)], but they differentiated Stages from a Game/Gameboard. As for "What lies beyond Game (Board) is also another Game (Board). What lies beyond the Stage is also another Stage.", it does imply that Nya will come back, however, from D2, we already find that there are already multiple Games in existence, but yet Kurou and Al beat the bloody crap out of every Game and Stage just to reach and beat the Gamekeeper Nya. Not to mention and this might seem like a reach, but we have already seen from Gunshin novel that "Beyond" refers to being transcendental to each other. Though I have yet to play Kishin Hishou myself so I cannot say much about this Games/Stages part and I think it'll just be higher levels into 1-A.

That should be H1a for Outer Gods like Nya, as for Azathoth, everything including Outer Gods is nothing but fantasy to his dream which is big af so... likely tier 0 ?

Nah, since he himself cannot do jack to Elder Gods and was sealed by them (I think Azathoth Dreaming is just Subject Reality in verse)

 

[Rabbit2002]

Question : Can Demobane reach Tier 0? Since Tier 0 has nothing to do with Omnipotent, and the strongest tier 0 Verses are even above baseline 0, including layers into (Manifold before downgrade, SCP, Wod, Twin Peaks,..)

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Question : Can Demobane reach Tier 0? Since Tier 0 has nothing to do with Omnipotent, and the strongest tier 0 Verses are even above baseline 0, including layers into (Manifold before downgrade, SCP, Wod, Twin Peaks,..)

Don't think so, but it's not that important anyway.

 

[zero0031]

Here is the thing. The Outer Universe is just a part of the Cycle, specifically the end/beginning of the loop, since it is the place for the Final Showdown between Kurou and Therion. There are no "infinite higher hierarchical universes above the Outer Universe" in a cycle. It's Outer Universe -> Cycle/Loop, and not Outer Universe -> infinite higher hierarchical universes -> Cycle/Loop. Those "infinite higher hierarchical universes" are the Multiverse itself, beyond which lies the Hyper Dimension, and beyond which lies the Outer Universe. Unless there is any evidence of the Outer Universe having "infinite higher hierarchical universes" which was not shown to me during my discussion with OP.

That's, quite opposite of what's said in OP's thread isnt it ? -10 legitimacy
Would have been much easier and better if you guys just use the "universe outside universe and shit" to further detail the Outer Universe, since the Multiverse is already has its own hierarchical of worlds and stuff, but it cant be helped turned out to be like this

I discussed this stuff with OP, and if you notice, I placed the Game, and the Stage at the same level, aka 1-A, stating a Game can contain stuff on a larger scale than the Infinite Spiral. I don't think a game, a gameboard, or a stage are the same, but I can say that a game and gameboard are the same given the quote, but then again, a Stage is different from a Game/Gameboard given the quote from the "The final act of the play [Clockwork Phantom (Mechanical Nightmare)]" as well as the fact that they specify how Game is a Gameboard in the quote [Game (Board)], but they differentiated Stages from a Game/Gameboard. As for "What lies beyond Game (Board) is also another Game (Board). What lies beyond the Stage is also another Stage.", it does imply that Nya will come back, however, from D2, we already find that there are already multiple Games in existence, but yet Kurou and Al beat the bloody crap out of every Game and Stage just to reach and beat the Gamekeeper Nya. Not to mention and this might seem like a reach, but we have already seen from Gunshin novel that "Beyond" refers to being transcendental to each other. Though I have yet to play Kishin Hishou myself so I cannot say much about this Games/Stages part and I think it'll just be higher levels into 1-A.

just high levels into 1A, yeah, better stay like this

Nah, since he himself cannot do jack to Elder Gods and was sealed by them (I think Azathoth Dreaming is just Subject Reality in verse)

quite confused, since Nya itself is just a fantasy in Azathoth's dream, but i forgot that Elder Gods and Outer Gods once had an intense battle before Elder Gods finally become much stronger than them, even able to turn the whole dream upside down and modify it into a sacred weapon that could make all Outer Gods pale, even Azz couldnt do shit to them

 

[RM97]

That's, quite opposite of what's said in OP's thread isnt it ?

Nah OP's thread provides all the information perfectly. It's just the structuring in the post which makes it confusing to people. However, it is not much of an issue if one knows the context from just playing Zanma.

quite confused, since Nya itself is just a fantasy in Azathoth's dream, but i forgot that Elder Gods and Outer Gods once had an intense battle before Elder Gods finally become much stronger than them, even able to turn the whole dream upside down and modify it into a sacred weapon that could make all Outer Gods pale, even Azz couldnt do shit to them

Yeah, it's likely just Azathoth using his Subject Reality to bring stuff into existence.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Anyway, it would still take a long time to revive Demonbane Mythos because i still need to write RTs for the characters.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Update: Finally i have finished Terminology, please go check it out.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Update: Finished post about gods in Demonbane verse.

 

[Megaraptor149]

When you make official profile for this?

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

When you make official profile for this?

When i have finished making RT for the characters and mechas first.
Also a revision thread for Demonbane verse.

 

[zero0031]

Spoiler: idk where to discuss this so i would leave it here

1, about the cosmology
Sufficient already, just some minor things i wanna bring up
Remember when Hadou Kouzou activated the Heart of Infinity and called forth some weird "images", "bubbles" of another worlds ? this caused the space of the current universe/dimension to collapse and thus allowed the "murky outer world" to pour in, threatening to destroy all things. Or when Hadou once talked about the wall between the real world (our universes) and the nirvana was about to collapse or sth likethat ? (it's all because Raal Rovdy gang and some unknown magicians or someone exceedingly abused magic ritual or magic-related stuff, this gradually distorted the natural laws and reality of the world as well as the balance between reality, spirituality and space time and shit).
What im trying to say is, the "outer world" outside the human world here is higher world/dimension or something like that around there,kept away from our universes by dimensional wall, exists by otherworldly laws (monsters and lower gods stated to come from worlds with different laws from our worlds come from there, and we need Deus Machina to handle them) and can destroy the lower world just by its presence (in Demonbane weaker laws or worlds cant stand the existence of stronger ones, thats what i think, for example, in ZanmaTaisei, Kurou once created a small pendulum (a small and portable spell) to trace Leica (or someone, i dont remember), and that weak spell couldnt stand the powerful presence of Nero from distance and uncontrollably explode, or when Anticross tried their hardest to control fake Cthulhu with numerous spells and got "nullified" like nothing just by a shrug or sth like that ?, etc), if it's fine for spell to spell and magic power then the same goes to world to world, like when the bubbles (other worlds) of the gates come to this world all things just got wiped out and the gate has to manifest itself in a form that universes can put up with
Btw theres a thing called world of soul mentioned a lot in ZanmaTaisei, not so important, i think it exists somewhere in spititual dimension.

2, about the terminology and shit
There's the use and control of spiritual thingy or spiritual flow or sth like that right, not totally magic (since magic is the art of controlling Azathoth, which is everything not only spiritual thingy) but some thing close to. Humans in ancient times already knew about this and spiritual shit has been creeping in to their life in many ways, for ex: feng shui geomancy that Hadou once used is able to ward off or somewhat protect the mansion from the monsters or even the instability of reality, or the ritual (religious stuff) that Raal Rovdy conducted (he cant do magic so it must've been a spiritual thingy, ritual, or something like that) which somewhat gave him abnormal abilities and even magic, even the summoning scene of Dagon was describe to have flows of spiritual energies, etc. I mean, i think spiritual stuff, ritual and religious stuff are REAl in Demonbane, those things even involved in summoning gods and stuff, so, just my guess, the religious gods and related stuff in Demonbane also exists.
More about spiritual and magic shit, sorcerers in their fight always have to hold themself and carefully handle spells: when a spell is being formed, high density casuality particles concentrates, spiritual power inside the spell increasingly rises until it reaches the level needed and hence the spell will materializes in physical/real world (ofc all previous phase like how it concentrates or how the spiritual flow rises can only be seen in spiritual dimension/by the eyes having magic power), that is, when the sorcerer is calm and can control themself, they would just focus on making spells and fight their foe. Then what happens if one lost his shit and started to rampage without caring anything else ? that's what happened in Leica's route when Kurou used Cthugha spells against Nameless One, in the first time Kurous Cthugha Beast collided with Nameless One's Cannon Spell, both destroyed/canceled out each other but also "leaked" a tiny bit of spiritual power to the real world, blow Demonbane away, in the 2nd time, Kurou was mad and just lost to making a furious Cthugha Spell, hence spiritual power rises to critical point, almost LEAKED to the real world and ensued destruction on the whole reality.
Anyone in Demonbane could of been able to pull out magic or spiritual attack, further detailed in Leica's Route, that emotional responsibility can interfere with magical occurrence and give the person ability to control and use magic which would normally have to changed into spells and used with logic, no need for a grimoires, just psychic powers. Some have psychic power and their will so strong, such as Therion once used simply telepathy and almost killed Tiberius. Idk what this serves and if we should just ignore this.
There's also some small feats like grimoires give off dense and powerful energy that can put great pressure on anyone near it, making them fall to the floor gasping for breath, Deus Machina's aura (or miasma or sth like that) can annihilate any normal person's soul, or sorcerers is dead only when their spirit breaks, "nothing is absolute for sorcerers. " , etc is it too insignificant to add or sth?

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Spoiler: idk where to discuss this so i would leave it here

1, about the cosmology
Sufficient already, just some minor things i wanna bring up
Remember when Hadou Kouzou activated the Heart of Infinity and called forth some weird "images", "bubbles" of another worlds ? this caused the space of the current universe/dimension to collapse and thus allowed the "murky outer world" to pour in, threatening to destroy all things. Or when Hadou once talked about the wall between the real world (our universes) and the nirvana was about to collapse or sth likethat ? (it's all because Raal Rovdy gang and some unknown magicians or someone exceedingly abused magic ritual or magic-related stuff, this gradually distorted the natural laws and reality of the world as well as the balance between reality, spirituality and space time and shit).
What im trying to say is, the "outer world" outside the human world here is higher world/dimension or something like that around there,kept away from our universes by dimensional wall, exists by otherworldly laws (monsters and lower gods stated to come from worlds with different laws from our worlds come from there, and we need Deus Machina to handle them) and can destroy the lower world just by its presence (in Demonbane weaker laws or worlds cant stand the existence of stronger ones, thats what i think, for example, in ZanmaTaisei, Kurou once created a small pendulum (a small and portable spell) to trace Leica (or someone, i dont remember), and that weak spell couldnt stand the powerful presence of Nero from distance and uncontrollably explode, or when Anticross tried their hardest to control fake Cthulhu with numerous spells and got "nullified" like nothing just by a shrug or sth like that ?, etc), if it's fine for spell to spell and magic power then the same goes to world to world, like when the bubbles (other worlds) of the gates come to this world all things just got wiped out and the gate has to manifest itself in a form that universes can put up with
Btw theres a thing called world of soul mentioned a lot in ZanmaTaisei, not so important, i think it exists somewhere in spititual dimension.

2, about the terminology and shit
There's the use and control of spiritual thingy or spiritual flow or sth like that right, not totally magic (since magic is the art of controlling Azathoth, which is everything not only spiritual thingy) but some thing close to. Humans in ancient times already knew about this and spiritual shit has been creeping in to their life in many ways, for ex: feng shui geomancy that Hadou once used is able to ward off or somewhat protect the mansion from the monsters or even the instability of reality, or the ritual (religious stuff) that Raal Rovdy conducted (he cant do magic so it must've been a spiritual thingy, ritual, or something like that) which somewhat gave him abnormal abilities and even magic, even the summoning scene of Dagon was describe to have flows of spiritual energies, etc. I mean, i think spiritual stuff, ritual and religious stuff are REAl in Demonbane, those things even involved in summoning gods and stuff, so, just my guess, the religious gods and related stuff in Demonbane also exists.
More about spiritual and magic shit, sorcerers in their fight always have to hold themself and carefully handle spells: when a spell is being formed, high density casuality particles concentrates, spiritual power inside the spell increasingly rises until it reaches the level needed and hence the spell will materializes in physical/real world (ofc all previous phase like how it concentrates or how the spiritual flow rises can only be seen in spiritual dimension/by the eyes having magic power), that is, when the sorcerer is calm and can control themself, they would just focus on making spells and fight their foe. Then what happens if one lost his shit and started to rampage without caring anything else ? that's what happened in Leica's route when Kurou used Cthugha spells against Nameless One, in the first time Kurous Cthugha Beast collided with Nameless One's Cannon Spell, both destroyed/canceled out each other but also "leaked" a tiny bit of spiritual power to the real world, blow Demonbane away, in the 2nd time, Kurou was mad and just lost to making a furious Cthugha Spell, hence spiritual power rises to critical point, almost LEAKED to the real world and ensued destruction on the whole reality.
Anyone in Demonbane could of been able to pull out magic or spiritual attack, further detailed in Leica's Route, that emotional responsibility can interfere with magical occurrence and give the person ability to control and use magic which would normally have to changed into spells and used with logic, no need for a grimoires, just psychic powers. Some have psychic power and their will so strong, such as Therion once used simply telepathy and almost killed Tiberius. Idk what this serves and if we should just ignore this.
There's also some small feats like grimoires give off dense and powerful energy that can put great pressure on anyone near it, making them fall to the floor gasping for breath, Deus Machina's aura (or miasma or sth like that) can annihilate any normal person's soul, or sorcerers is dead only when their spirit breaks, "nothing is absolute for sorcerers. " , etc is it too insignificant to add or sth?

Thanks for your input, though however it still gonna take a long time since i'm just started listing feats of Kurou from Houkou. And i have to re-translate shit tons of scans from the Light Novels.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Currently i'm still working on writting character's RT, so far i have finished the feats of Kurou in Common and Al's route, if anyone interested feel free to check what i wrote on SB (will post them here soon):

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/demonbane-mythos-official-respect-thread.957864/#post-86144738

Also i have updated the Terminology and Cosmology's post abit, fixing some scans and translations.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Whew, this sure took lots of strengh from me, but it's definitely worth it.

So basically i just did a massive fix for all posts, including re-translated and added some stuffs, especially in the cosmology section.

We have scan that in Outer Universe even time is stopped as well, and both Demonbane and Liber Legis can fight across this universe while ignoring every kind of cosmic bullshitery that assaults them. In addition, Chaos is described as "eternal being that dwarfs even the boundless", which further supported Demonbane's cosmology as H1A, i will wait for the opinions from you guys.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ok so this is my final opinion on such;

The Mainstream Multiverse is Low 1-A alongside The Cycle - Each Universe contains Infinite Possibilities and is a part of an Infinite Hierarchy which would lead to an Uncountably Infinite Structure Infinity ^ Infinity instead of a countable Infinity which is High 1-B.

Hyper Dimension is 1-A - Existing outside of time and space, beyond the extent of transcending into the higher and higher universes.

The Outer Universe is a layer further into 1-A - Couldn't be reached even while Super Demonbane was transcending even further beyond the Hyper-Dimension.

Chaos is another layer into 1-A - As a place that contains entities that dwarf the boundless outside of them and is infinite.

The Games & Stages are likely 1-A+ to High 1-A - Depending on how Games and Stages are related to one another.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Ok so this is my final opinion on such;

The Mainstream Multiverse is Low 1-A alongside The Cycle - Each Universe contains Infinite Possibilities and is a part of an Infinite Hierarchy which would lead to an Uncountably Infinite Structure Infinity ^ Infinity instead of a countable Infinity which is High 1-B.

The location Nya was at is 1-A - Existing outside of time and space, beyond the extent of Demonbane's fight which involved transcending into higher and higher universes yet they still never reached the Hyperdiemnsion and were bound by the time it was outside of.

The Outeruniverse is either Low 1-A or potentially 1-A if it contains wherever Nya was - An interesting place but it doesn't have any sense of transcendence from what I can tell.

Chaos is 1-A as it holds the True Forms of Nya and the court resides

The Games & Stages are likely 1-A+ to High 1-A - Depending on how Games and Stages are related to one another.

Correction for the 2nd one, both Super Demonbane and Super Liber Legis have transcended TO the Hyperdimension, and they can keep doing that infinitely yet Super Demonbane could never hope to reach the Outer Universe, you can do the math. Also the place where Nya observing the fight between two Super Deus Machinas doesn't affect her much though, since Nyar is the creator of Infinite Spiral so she can be anywhere she wants.

Outer Universe = Domain of Gods aka Great Old Ones, and based on the feat of Necronomicon, they are stated to be primal and undimensioned. Neo Demonbane and Neo Liber Legis upon exchanging their first strikes, they transcended the gods and the limit of the world as well, of course, each time they fought, they shifted into another otherworldly universe that transcended the former, with most notable feat in Al' route is their clashed formed the Final Universe, a nothing yet infinite, a momentary yet eternal universe. The feats from Gunshin sounds fancy, but compared to Houkou it's pretty much child play. Let's not forget that fighting in Outer Universe = fighting inside Yog-Sothoth himself.

As for Chaos, well:

総ては融けて還る。
糜爛する快楽と嫌悪と安堵と苦痛の混沌の庭へ。
沸騰する神々の宇宙へ。
茫漠に圧倒する悠久の存在へ。
ヒトの存在など、この無限の中に在って、どれほどの価値があるのだろうか。
私もまた、帰還する。
帰還して、滅びる。
滅びて、消失する。
消えて、融合する。
ただ、それだけ。それだけのこと――
――ライカさんっ!
その無限をも超えて、届く聲が在る。
それは小さな……世界の濁流に簡単に呑み込まれ、砕け散ってしまいそうな程に、ちっぽけな聲に過ぎない。
そんな儚い聲が、圧倒的な絶望を裂いて、私の魂に強く響く。
大事な何かを、力の限り訴えかける。
私の存在を訴えかける。
私は、砕けた意識の破片を拾い集める。

Everything melts and returns.
To the decomposing garden of chaos of ecstasy, hatred, relief, and pain.
To the boiling cosmos of the gods.
To the eternal being that dwarfs the boundless.
What significance, in this infinity, does the existence of humans have?
I, too, return.
I return, and am destroyed.
I am destroyed, and disappear.
I disappear, and become a part.
That's all. That's all it is----
----Leica-san!
There is a voice that reaches beyond even that infinity.
It's so faint... A merely insignificant voice that can be easily swallowed by the muddy stream of the world, and shattered to pieces.
Such a fragile voice tears through unsurmountable despair, and resonates in my soul vividly.
With all its might, it tries to tell me of what is important.
It tries to tell me of my existence.
I begin gathering the shattered fragments of my consciousness.

 

[Arkenis]

Pretty cool.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Correction for the 2nd one, both Super Demonbane and Super Liber Legis have transcended TO the Hyperdimension, and they can keep doing that infinitely yet Super Demonbane could never hope to reach the Outer Universe, you can do the math. Also the place where Nya observing the fight between two Super Deus Machinas doesn't affect her much though, since Nyar is the creator of Infinite Spiral so she can be anywhere she wants.

Outer Universe = Domain of Gods aka Great Old Ones, and based on the feat of Necronomicon, they are stated to be primal and undimensioned. Neo Demonbane and Neo Liber Legis upon exchanging their first strikes, they transcended the gods and the limit of the world as well, of course, each time they fought, they shifted into another otherworldly universe that transcended the former, with most notable feat in Al' route is their clashed formed the Final Universe, a nothing yet infinite, a momentary yet eternal universe. The feats from Gunshin sounds fancy, but compared to Houkou it's pretty much child play. Let's not forget that fighting in Outer Universe = fighting inside Yog-Sothoth himself.

As for Chaos, well:

Oh in that case changed tiering up then.

 

[zero0031]

We have scan that in Outer Universe even time is stopped as well

just asking, does this even mean anything ?

In addition, Chaos is described as "eternal being that dwarfs even the boundless", which further supported Demonbane's cosmology as H1A, i will wait for the opinions from you guys.

i wonder if "dwarfs even the boundless" can make it skyrocket from 1a to h1a

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

just asking, does this even mean anything ?

The feat is there, so why not? The more information the better.
Of course, this time-stop thingy is not your average za warudo anyway, considering how space and time eats shit in Outer Universe.

 

[Arkenis]

just asking, does this even mean anything ?

they resist time stop.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Tbh, Demonbane already have time haxx from Atlantis Strike and De Marigny's Clock, it's just that the Outer Universe one is in an infinitely larger scale, and more complicated.
Heck, Clockwork Phantom can stop the time in its own universe, and our Demonbane trio dgaf.

 

[zero0031]

they resist time stop.

well even things like Super Demonbane can alrealy shit on hie of worlds, transcend layers of layers of time-space, such and such and so
in Outer Universe it doesnt mean shit anymore, step into the gate you already ignore all concepts of time space and such, layer of worlds here have their concept of time but it doesnt matter since they have high level time hax and stuff

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Like i said, the more information, the better.
And in case you guys don't know, the feat is from Leica's rotue, where the Demonbane trio is WEAKEST of all routes. In that part, a heavily-injured Kurou controlled Demonbane from the outside and beat the shit out of Sandalphon.

 

[RM97]

We have scan that in Outer Universe even time is stopped as well, and both Demonbane and Liber Legis can fight across this universe while ignoring every kind of cosmic bullshitery that assaults them. In addition, Chaos is described as "eternal being that dwarfs even the boundless", which further supported Demonbane's cosmology as H1A, i will wait for the opinions from you guys.

Yeah agreed with this.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

So i have updated another scans for cosmology and the gods section, these are WoG confirmation and the hidden contents from Kishin Houkou itself.
It's available in the section of "Mainstream Multiverse and Infinity", "Outer Universe" and "Evil Gods".
The Japanese tweets from Jin-sensei have brought some game-changer for this verse, i think some of you guys will be interested.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

If you went thoroughly, then all things in this world are infinite x infinite from one way to another.

Although this doesn't change the Tier of the Mainstream Multiverse it still makes it massive as all hell.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Although this doesn't change the Tier of the Mainstream Multiverse it still makes it massive as all hell.

Not that, check the "tweets" of Jin Haganeya in "Mainstream Multiverse" and "Evil Gods" section.
That feat is from Kishin Hishou btw, which i already added long ago.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Okay so these are new informations that i updated, my apologies for not bringing these up for the sake of convenience since my thread is damn long. Most are these are confirmation from Jin-sensei in Japanese. I have discussed with my friend RM97 about this matter. First, is the Mainstream Multiverse and Infinity in Demonbane verse.

Jin-sensei does say that he used [Infinity] in the series vaguely and in a way that signifies god, the latter part is applicable for The Outer Gods/Sea of Chaos/ Reason because in game, we get the statement as how "Sea of Chaos is the True Infinity" which goes hand in hand with Jin-sensei's comment and furthermore, there's even a set of Infinity called "Cantor's Infinity" which George Cantor discovered and called it the Ultimate Infinity that signifies God.

The other part of Infinity, aka Infinity as in sets and alephs (although Jin-sensei said that the Aleph number would be too overwhelming for his understanding if he use it) in cosmology structures. For example, how an infinite and eternal universe is embedded in an infinitesimal aspect of a higher universe. Another one is the Ouroboros Rondo, which pretty obvious here. So there you have it, the concept of infinity in Demonbane Mythos is related with the infinity in philosophy and likely even more.

Original tweet:

i.imgur.com/X5oKFt5.png
i.imgur.com/X5oKFt5.png
i.imgur.com/LdUBC3V.png
i.imgur.com/ibWsVtp.png

OP: 先生の作品の中によく出てくる無限という概念に関する問題です。
現代のクトゥルフ神話に関しての作品は時々アレフ数という概念に係っている。
たとえば、私が見た日本漫画とゲームの中、ヨグ＝ソトースはアレフ∞だという説もある。
OP: 昔の無限はただ神の象徴かも知れないが、現代の無限は数学家のゲームですね。私の問題は
先生作品の無限がそのようなものか（アレフ数）？あるいはまったく別のもの（神の象徴など）？
Jin Haganeya: 私が無限という言葉を使うときは、曖昧で詩的な表現として用いることが多いです。正直な話をすると、アレフ数のような数学の概念を用いると、いずれ私の理解が追いつかなくなるからです。
Jin Haganeya: だから、どちらかというと神の象徴に近いかもしれません。神だけではなく色々な要素を含む、ロマンがある言葉として使っています。

OP: “This is a question about the concept of [infinity], which often appears in Jin-sensei’s works.
It is related to the concept of [Aleph numbers], which often appeared in modern works featuring Cthulhu Mythos.
As an example, from the Japanese mangas and games I’ve seen, there are theories about Yog-Sothoth being the [Aleph-infinity] itself.”
OP: “Though the olden [infinity] was known as a symbol of God, modern [infinity] are tools of mathematicians. My question is, was the [infinity] in your works are that sort of concept (Aleph numbers) or a different concept (such as the symbol of God)?”
Jin Haganeya: “When I use the word of [infinity], they were often to be vague and poetic. To be honest, my understanding would be overwhelmed sooner or later, using mathematical concepts like [Aleph number].”
Jin Haganeya: “Which is why, if anything else, it may be closer to the symbol of God. It is used as a romantic word that includes not only God, but also various elements.”

Now moving on, about the higher universes in Hyperdimension. So basically Hyperdimension is a Low 1-A structure. However, it'll be Infinite above baseline Low 1-A due to the fact that it's infinitely layered in itself with higher universes above it. That's my interpretation of it because to my knowledge, infinitely above Low 1-A is still Low 1-A as in order to reach the next aleph, aka 1-A, you'd have to either go beyond the boundaries of Space, Time, and Dimensions (Something the Outer Universe did), or you'd have to go Uncountably Infinite above it. Jin-sensei made a commentary about the difference between "larger universe" and "higher universe", as he got the references from Multi-World Interpertation and the Cosmic Inflation, a larger universe is likely contained smaller universe, but a larger universe is not necessary a higher universe, since they are just larger, same level of existence, but difference in terms of size. For example: C > A > B > C, this is directly taken from the concept of Trilemma, which you can find in Rock - Paper - Scissor. Considering how a mortal universe is infinite and eternal, you can get the idea how large Demonbane verse is.

Original tweet:

i.imgur.com/A3QarFy.png
i.imgur.com/l6ryQlz.png
i.imgur.com/e5Cxaim.png
i.imgur.com/QQjgrvl.png
i.imgur.com/0Z2BpAq.png
i.imgur.com/BGjp9j5.png

OP: 先生こんばんは、今日は多元宇宙について、いくつの質問があります。
私は様々な多元宇宙理論に興味あるんです。なので、先生の作品の多元宇宙の仕組みを知りたいです。
先生の多元宇宙はどのようなものか？多世界解釈、インフレーションの泡などに似ていますか？
Jin Haganeya: 少なくとも多世界解釈は参考にしています。宇宙のインフレーションもイメージに近いです。
OP: なお、先生の作品から見ると多元宇宙の外にも時空があるよね、超空間とか、超超空間とか、これは全部同じの時空連続体にあるのか？それも知りたいです。
Jin Haganeya: 多元宇宙と超時空の関係はおそらく複雑なものです。ある宇宙の外側にある、より大きい宇宙が、必ずしも高位の宇宙であるとは限らないでしょう。
Jin Haganeya: たとえば宇宙Ａを内包する宇宙Ｂが存在し、その宇宙Ｂの外側に、さらに巨大な宇宙Ｃが存在すると仮定します。ですがその宇宙Ｃは宇宙Ａよりも小さいことがあり得る、というのが私の考えです。何とも不思議で不可解で、そして魅力的なことでしょう！
OP (His reply is liked by Jin-sensei himself, so it counts): 実に面白い、先生の世界は私の貧弱な想像をはるかに超えているようだ。小さな物は小さい、大きな物は大きい、誰にとってこれも常識だ。小さなものは大きなものより大きいなんて、想像もつかないじゃないか。これはウロボロスみたいな感じ、世界そのものはひとつの環になるんだ。

OP: “Greetings, Sensei. I have some questions about the multiverse for today.
I am curious about the various models of the multiverse. So I wish to know about the structure of the multiverse in Sensei’s works.
What kind of multiverse you used in your works? It is similar to Many-Worlds Interpretation or bubbles in Cosmic Inflation model?”
Jin: “At least the reference I got is from the Many-Worlds Interpretation. The Cosmic Inflation also has a close image to that.”
OP: “Moreover, I saw that there are space-time beyond the multiverse in Sensei’s works, such as Hyperspace or Hyper-hyperspace. I want to know if they are all parts of the same space-time continuum.”
Jin Haganeya: “The relationship between the multiverse and hyperdimension is sort of a complicated one. The larger universe outside another universe does not have to be a higher universe.”
Jin: “For example, assuming there is a Universe B that contains Universe A and the larger Universe C exists outside Universe B. But that Universe C can be smaller than Universe A, is what I believe. How mysterious, incomprehensible and fascinating it is!”
OP: “This is really interesting, Sensei’s world is far surpassing my meager imagination. Everyone’s common sense would dictate that small is small and big is big. They could not even imagine that a small object can be larger than a big object. This is like the Ouroboros, where the world itself is one big ring.”

Next is regarding the gods in Demonbane Mythos, as confirmed by Jin-sensei, all gods in Demonbane Mythos are comparable to archetypes from Theory of Forms, which supported the idea that the Lovecraftian gods of Demonbane Mythos are abstract higher dimensional beings. For example, Yog-Sothoth's manifestion to the PoV of Kurou and others varies, from countless spheres to a Gate or a pillar. Another is Cthulhu with Illusionary Heart Mother acted as a vessel, or its endlessly growing cancerous tumors, they are simply different forms of the real Cthulhu that beyond the perception of mortals (Note: The Cthulhu that has been summoned is just a vessel form, while the true Great Old Ones resides in Outer Universe). Basically, the image of these gods that we “saw” is just a fraction of their form among countless in our very perception (Note: This is pretty much consistent with the fact that Deus Machina is a mass of Azathoth particles, their physical form is just a reflection from their higher existence in spiritual dimension. And Deus Machinas are just modeled after the gods). A reminder, that even Cthulhu, a god cannot even perceive the true form of his cousins, whom are also Great Old Ones and Great Old Ones are less than mortals before the Outer Gods. In addition, since they are comparable to archetypes, so by default, they should be beyond space and time.

(I copied and paste from my own RT but whatever, basically what i said anyway)

Original tweet:

i.imgur.com/KHqLSfz.png
i.imgur.com/ehhjjgS.png
i.imgur.com/EuUQHcu.png
i.imgur.com/axscPlz.png

OP: 先生、こんばんは
今日はね、もうひとつ哲学的な問題を聞きたいです。
概念的な存在はどこにあるのか？この問題に対しては先生はどう思う？
時空の外に存在するのか（プラトンのイデアみたいに）
あるいは人の頭の中だけにあるのか、それともある高次元の中に存在する？
Jin Haganeya: 概念の話は私には難しい問題です。その上でデモンベイン内での神々はどういう存在なのかをお答えします。作中でヨグ＝ソトースが召喚された時、九郎たちの目にはそれが巨大な扉のように見えました。しかしある時は無数の球体に見え、ある時は巨大な柱に見えました。
OP: なお、この問題に関して、先生の作品に登場する神々はどのような存在ですか
物理的？概念的？それも教えてほしい。
Jin Haganeya: これは人間には神の真実の姿をとらえることは決して出来ず、個人個人の感覚や精神、魂のかたちに合わせて、別々の神を幻として見ているに過ぎないからです。なのでイデア論に少し似ているかも知れません。

OP: “Good evening, Jin-sensei.
Today, I wanted to ask for another philosophical question.
Where do conceptual existences belong? What do you think about this question?
Do they exist beyond time and space (like Plato’s Realm of Ideas)?
Or they are simply something within a human’s mind, or do they exist in a higher dimension?”
Jin Haganeya: “A conversation about concepts is a difficult one to me. On top of that, I will tell what kind of gods in Demonbane. When Yog-Sothoth was summoned in my work, he manifested as a gigantic gate to Kurou and others. Yet, at times, he manifested as countless spheres or at other times, he manifested as a gigantic pillar.”
OP: “Furthermore, concerning this question, what kind of being are the gods in your works? Are they physical gods or conceptual gods? I would like hear your opinion.”
Jin Haganeya: “This is because humans are never able to perceive the true form of the gods, they merely see a god in different forms as illusions according to an individual’s sense, mind and soul. Hence, it might a bit similar to the Theory of Forms.”

Okay this should be it. Appreciated for more inputs.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

bump

 

[zero0031]

Why do u decide to use Jin's tweet ? A lot of his tweet even raises more question and contracdiction