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What would be Demonbane's tier based on this?

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Update: Fixed grammar for Gunshin Kyoushuu's afterwords.
So there's another tthing i want to brought up. Demonbane Mythos used lots of quotes from Lovecraft's works, which is including the Dunwich Horror, one of the main work that influenced the setting of Demonbane verse. Jin Haganeya quoted the Necronomicon in Kishin Hishou, which is like this:

また、その人以来存  在するどのうちのほとん  どはそうです、見える(腕、それ、老化する。がそれを精神的に翻訳した一方、テキストが実行されました)、あるいは、最も(それ)古い(それら)ものがそうです、グローバルマスター、あるいはその、最後、生命、また、共通の物質は独立して歩きます。悪霊がありました。悪霊があります。さらに、悪霊はそのように現われて、あるものとして得られます。スペースで、私たちはどれを知っていますか、そのとき何もありません、それ、■■■■■する(■■)そしてそれらがそうである、静か、また初期で、それらの中で歩く、また、どれが目で私たちに見えないかはゲートを知っています。用門的鑰匙守護者はゲートです。用門的鑰匙守護者はゲートのキーおよび保護者です。それは用門的鑰匙守護者のうちの一です、過去、今、そして将来[すべて]で。彼は、悪霊が古いためにそれがどこに前進したか、あるいは、それらがどこに再び前進することができるか知っています。地球のフィールドに沿ってそれらがどこに歩いたか彼が知っている一方、あるいはどこで、■■■■とそれらは、まだそれらに沿って歩くでしょう、また、それらは歩きます、誰もそれらを見ることができません、なぜ? 彼らの匂いで、人々はそれらを時々緊密に知ることができます。それらは類似の中で、類似で人間の人々を退屈させますが、
(しかしながら)、それは光景か物質のない人々の中で最も真実の理想的イメージと異なります、どれがありますか;どれは特徴の中でのみ保存せず知ることができずそれら、それら、形式に、また、それらはそこで多くの種類です。目に、それは目に見えません。彼は歩きます。単語は話されます。また、それらはそれらの季節ごろ、式が通り抜けたただ一つの場所および遠ぼえ(■■)に汚くなります。風は話します、急速に、の中で、それら、音声。さらに、地球はそうです、ささやく、で、それら、意識。それらは森林、および都市を壊し、それはまだ実行されてはならない森林か、都市を曲げます、手が衝突するのを見る、で。どの人[既知の寒い不必要な蓮の中の上凍的荒野、それら、そして]上凍的荒野を知っている? 南部の氷砂漠および海洋が沈む島は、それの上の石およびそれらのシールが彫刻師であると考えます――しかしながら、凍った都市、誰、■■、また、深淵、あるいは密封したタワーは海草と硝子でリースで長い間飾られた■■■■■を見ます――大きな鬼歹老海は弱く秘密に単に調査します、彼、そしてそれら、どれ、それらのいとこである、そしてそれはまだある、汚いものとして実行するべきイア! 懐一千仔的人山人海綿羊! それらの手は、まだあなたの喉(それは■を視る)にどれを持ちそれら、そしてそれはない、そしてそれら、
居住、保護された閾値を装備した一つの技術です。用門的鑰匙守護者はゲート(球体はそばに会います)のキーです。それ。それらは、場所に直ちに指定されるでしょう、どれ;人々が今管理する人は、今それらが以前に指定した場所に管理します。夏に、冬夏の後に、冬です。それらは患者を待つべきであり、主要なの目的をここで作るべきです――それらは再び広がります。

Nor is it to be thought...that man is either the oldest or the last of earth's masters, or that the common bulk of life and substance walks alone. The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, they walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They had trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men sometimes know Them near, but of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man's truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath? The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold stones whereon Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and barnacles? Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly. Iä! Shub-Niggurath! As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where man rules now. After summer is winter, after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.

Jin Haganeya switched some sentences in purpose, however i managed to get the reference. Based on that quote, do you guys think that the Great Old Ones are dimensionless?
 
So I think that at Outer Universe should be baseline 1a and Nyarlathotep will be h1a for that
your thought about this one?
Update: Fixed grammar for Gunshin Kyoushuu's afterwords.
So there's another tthing i want to brought up. Demonbane Mythos used lots of quotes from Lovecraft's works, which is including the Dunwich Horror, one of the main work that influenced the setting of Demonbane verse. Jin Haganeya quoted the Necronomicon in Kishin Hishou, which is like this:

また、その人以来存  在するどのうちのほとん  どはそうです、見える(腕、それ、老化する。がそれを精神的に翻訳した一方、テキストが実行されました)、あるいは、最も(それ)古い(それら)ものがそうです、グローバルマスター、あるいはその、最後、生命、また、共通の物質は独立して歩きます。悪霊がありました。悪霊があります。さらに、悪霊はそのように現われて、あるものとして得られます。スペースで、私たちはどれを知っていますか、そのとき何もありません、それ、■■■■■する(■■)そしてそれらがそうである、静か、また初期で、それらの中で歩く、また、どれが目で私たちに見えないかはゲートを知っています。用門的鑰匙守護者はゲートです。用門的鑰匙守護者はゲートのキーおよび保護者です。それは用門的鑰匙守護者のうちの一です、過去、今、そして将来[すべて]で。彼は、悪霊が古いためにそれがどこに前進したか、あるいは、それらがどこに再び前進することができるか知っています。地球のフィールドに沿ってそれらがどこに歩いたか彼が知っている一方、あるいはどこで、■■■■とそれらは、まだそれらに沿って歩くでしょう、また、それらは歩きます、誰もそれらを見ることができません、なぜ? 彼らの匂いで、人々はそれらを時々緊密に知ることができます。それらは類似の中で、類似で人間の人々を退屈させますが、
(しかしながら)、それは光景か物質のない人々の中で最も真実の理想的イメージと異なります、どれがありますか;どれは特徴の中でのみ保存せず知ることができずそれら、それら、形式に、また、それらはそこで多くの種類です。目に、それは目に見えません。彼は歩きます。単語は話されます。また、それらはそれらの季節ごろ、式が通り抜けたただ一つの場所および遠ぼえ(■■)に汚くなります。風は話します、急速に、の中で、それら、音声。さらに、地球はそうです、ささやく、で、それら、意識。それらは森林、および都市を壊し、それはまだ実行されてはならない森林か、都市を曲げます、手が衝突するのを見る、で。どの人[既知の寒い不必要な蓮の中の上凍的荒野、それら、そして]上凍的荒野を知っている? 南部の氷砂漠および海洋が沈む島は、それの上の石およびそれらのシールが彫刻師であると考えます――しかしながら、凍った都市、誰、■■、また、深淵、あるいは密封したタワーは海草と硝子でリースで長い間飾られた■■■■■を見ます――大きな鬼歹老海は弱く秘密に単に調査します、彼、そしてそれら、どれ、それらのいとこである、そしてそれはまだある、汚いものとして実行するべきイア! 懐一千仔的人山人海綿羊! それらの手は、まだあなたの喉(それは■を視る)にどれを持ちそれら、そしてそれはない、そしてそれら、
居住、保護された閾値を装備した一つの技術です。用門的鑰匙守護者はゲート(球体はそばに会います)のキーです。それ。それらは、場所に直ちに指定されるでしょう、どれ;人々が今管理する人は、今それらが以前に指定した場所に管理します。夏に、冬夏の後に、冬です。それらは患者を待つべきであり、主要なの目的をここで作るべきです――それらは再び広がります。

Nor is it to be thought...that man is either the oldest or the last of earth's masters, or that the common bulk of life and substance walks alone. The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, they walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They had trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men sometimes know Them near, but of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man's truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath? The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold stones whereon Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and barnacles? Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly. Iä! Shub-Niggurath! As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where man rules now. After summer is winter, after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.

Jin Haganeya switched some sentences in purpose, however i managed to get the reference. Based on that quote, do you guys think that the Great Old Ones are dimensionless?
 
I have seen some old posts about demonbane having transcend dimension statement and Euclid stuff and just noticed you updated your respect thread. If euclid geometry is meaningless in higher dimension/universe in demonbane then we can settle it at 1A.
But i prefer a safer bet on the HyperDimension, given that Mars Demonbane couldnt reach the Outer Universe and where Nyar was standing.
 
I have seen some old posts about demonbane having transcend dimension statement and Euclid stuff and just noticed you updated your respect thread. If euclid geometry is meaningless in higher dimension/universe in demonbane then we can settle it at 1A.
But i prefer a safer bet on the HyperDimension, given that Mars Demonbane couldnt reach the Outer Universe and where Nyar was standing.
Yeah Euclidean Geometry is just the baseline in Demonbane universe, they held no significant meaning to the magicians, let alone the Great Old Ones or any kind of eldritch beings/cosmic horrors - beings that exists in Outer Universe.
As for Super Demonbane, it is summoned as a God, which in context here is Great Old One. We can scale Super Demonbane to them.
What about the infinite branching of infinite stories then?
 
Yeah Euclidean Geometry is just the baseline in Demonbane universe, they held no significant meaning to the magicians, let alone the Great Old Ones or any kind of eldritch beings/cosmic horrors - beings that exists in Outer Universe.
As for Super Demonbane, it is summoned as a God, which in context here is Great Old One. We can scale Super Demonbane to them.
What about the infinite branching of infinite stories then?
H1b or l1a I guess
 
Super Demonbane fight revealed an infinite hierarchy of worlds across an infinite number of time-spaces or eternities. (Infinite Baseline High 1-B) with Demonbane and Legis themselves becoming Low 1-A being beyond it all.

It was heavily implied that a repeat of their previous infinite degrees of transcendence wouldn't have been enough to reach the level Nyarlarthotep needed. (1-A+)

Yog Sothoth's gate avatar transcend this as a universe embodiment of nonexistent space-time (Demonbane and Liber later destroyed this world). (Baseline High 1-A)

Demonbane and Liber Legis transcend this level as they exist on the plane of the Outer Universe (1 degree of transcendence in High 1-A)

Sealed! Yog Sothoth, and Nyarlothotep don't transcend this per se but can manipulate the universe on their own level of existence (2 degrees of transcendence in High 1-A)

Chaos, the original state of the universe, deemed unknowable to any other state revealed before (3 degrees of transcendence in High 1-A)

NB 1: The only reason why they're not higher is because there was no real evidence of superiority or transcendence in demonbane's true battle except for the end unlike in regards to Super Demonbane despite both of them resulting in the destruction of the universe.

NB 2: I don't think the happy end transcends the Outerverse, it would just scale to its full dimensions as the universe formed is just a byproduct of the former loop breaking and thus not inherently transcendent to it.

Well, that's what I thought about the tiers while reading the respect thread. Thank you for all your hard work.
 
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Super Demonbane fight revealed an infinite hierarchy of worlds across an infinite number of time-spaces or eternities. (Infinite Baseline High 1-B) with Demonbane and Legis themselves becoming Low 1-A being beyond it all.

It was heavily implied that a repeat of their previous infinite degrees of transcendence wouldn't have been enough to reach the level Nyarlarthotep needed. (1-A+)

Yog Sothoth's gate avatar transcend this as a universe embodiment of nonexistent space-time (Demonbane and Liber later destroyed this world). (Baseline High 1-A)

Demonbane and Liber Legis transcend this level as they exist on the plane of the Outer Universe (1 degree of transcendence in High 1-A)

Sealed! Yog Sothoth, and Nyarlothotep don't transcend this per se but can manipulate the universe on their own level of existence (2 degrees of transcendence in High 1-A)

Chaos, the original state of the universe, deemed unknowable to any other state revealed before (3 degrees of transcendence in High 1-A)

NB 1: The only reason why they're not higher is because there was no real evidence of superiority or transcendence in demonbane's true battle except for the end unlike in regards to Super Demonbane despite both of them resulting in the destruction of the universe.

NB 2: I don't think the happy end transcends the Outerverse, it would just scale to its full dimensions as the universe formed is just a byproduct of the former loop breaking and thus not inherently transcendent to it.

Well, that's what I thought about the tiers while reading the respect thread. Thank you for all your hard work.
So Demonbane Mythos finally can reach 1a-h1a now? With proper edvidences, of course.

Edit: Super Demonbane is still weaker than Demonbane from Al's Route or Ruri's Route in Kishin Houkou, because the Demonbane Trio fought the full-powered Master Therion along with Etheldreda, while in Gunshin Kyoushuu Master Therion never bother to call her and Edgar is just too weak compared to Kurou. Of all the Masters of Al, only Kurou is the one that shared the best connection with her. In Demonbane universe Trinity is the most important factor (Magius - Grimoire - Deus Machina), if one of them is missing then you will not be able to reach your full potential or just deemed not worthy to face the Beast. This is shown in Kishin Hishou, Master Therion easily curbstomped Kuzaku's Demonbane Two-Sword and called his Demonbane a useless piece of crap.

Another thing here is, Super Demonbane is said comparable to a god, which in context here is Great Old One, not Outer God obviously.

And Demonbane from Al's Route + Ruri's Route when fighting against Liber Legis/Master Therion, they TRANSCENDED the gods right in their first battle in the Clock Universe.

In case someone need clarification.
 
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Another thing here is, Super Demonbane is said comparable to a god, which in context here is Great Old One, not Outer God obviously.

And Demonbane from Al's Route + Ruri's Route when fighting against Liber Legis/Master Therion, they TRANSCENDED the gods right in their first battle in the Clock Universe.

In case someone need clarification.
Okay let's get this straight, every Great Old One have their own domain in the Outer Universe, which means their world spreads across entire infinite higher worlds of the OU, which shows that their power has never been the same since their dimensions were already higher or lower than the other. Andas you already know theyare just kinda weak, lowlife Great old Ones created by Nyarlathotep. The True Great Old Ones are said to have been sealed inside the Shining Trapezohedron along with the other Outer Gods, and "this Great Old Ones" can change, destroy, devour or do whatever tf theywant with creation (which at least implies the Klein Bottle in the context).
With that we can pretty much conclude this, Super Demonbane/Liber Legis (low 1a)< Outer Universe or the place where Nya stands (pretty much solid 1A) < infinite higher worlds in Outer Universe + some higher layers above that = Klein Bottle< True Great Old Ones who totally transcended the Klein Bottle and could warp it only by observing, i believe just True Great Old Ones alone can be qualified for h1a
About the text you give above, i think it should be used to further solidify the True Great Old Ones, that can make the scaling more sense
 
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I'm gonna re-check the Elder God's ending, Nero's fairy tales said in ancient time the Great Old Ones invaded earth and wrecked havoc everywhere, they prayed for Elder Gods to vanquish them.
Which might be a hint to say that the Great Old Ones like Cthulhu or even Outer God like Yog-Sothoth that we saw are just product of Infinite Spiral, because the true versions of them has been locked away in the Shining Trapezohedron.
But yeah, still need some confirmation.
 
I'm gonna re-check the Elder God's ending, Nero's fairy tales said in ancient time the Great Old Ones invaded earth and wrecked havoc everywhere, they prayed for Elder Gods to vanquish them.
Which might be a hint to say that the Great Old Ones like Cthulhu or even Outer God like Yog-Sothoth that we saw are just product of Infinite Spiral, because the true versions of them has been locked away in the Shining Trapezohedron.
But yeah, still need some confirmation.
I make this thread for another verse, but the description is similar and also works for Demonbane's Multiverse and makes a Multiverse 1-A+

Anything that transcends the Multiverses or whatever would be High 1-A.
 
Okay here's my conclusion:
  • Great Old Ones are real deal, however, they are exiled from Earth by the Elder Gods. The Great Old Ones live in the Outer Universe, that's a fact for sure. I already explained how Super Demonbane can scale with Great Old Ones above, though of course i will cover their feats in my RT.
  • About the Outer Gods, all of them sans for Nya are sealed in the Shining Trapezohedron, because Master Therion is just a product of Infinite Spiral hence his Father are no exception. But to avoid brain ****, let's just treat those that already have their own feats.
  • There are Great Old Ones in every universe/world, for example, in the story Lost World from Project D2, Demonbane used Big Bang Impact to destroy every Great Old Ones and avatars of Yog-Sothoh + Nyarlathotep in its world.
 
Great Old Ones are real deal
meh, still
The Great Old Ones live in the Outer Universe, that's a fact for sure. I already explained how Super Demonbane can scale with Great Old Ones above, though of course i will cover their feats in my RT.
You said Super Demonbane can scale with the power of gods, Great Old ones who live in Outer Universe to be specific
If so then why he cant ever reach Outer Universe ? its just me or your feats being a tad inconsistent ?
There are Great Old Ones in every universe/world, for example, in the story Lost World from Project D2, Demonbane used Big Bang Impact to destroy every Great Old Ones and avatars of Yog-Sothoh + Nyarlathotep in its world.
Great Old Ones, Gods, Worms, Ancient Ones, Rapper or whatever they are, early on in the series it's already said that every single creature lurking beyond the gate is no less powerful than Cthulhu, which is a Great Old One ( the hairy ******** summoned in the series is just a bad version of real Cthulhu tho )
Idk but i guess we could ignore this issue
 
meh, still

You said Super Demonbane can scale with the power of gods, Great Old ones who live in Outer Universe to be specific
If so then why he cant ever reach Outer Universe ? its just me or your feats being a tad inconsistent ?

Great Old Ones, Gods, Worms, Ancient Ones, Rapper or whatever they are, early on in the series it's already said that every single creature lurking beyond the gate is no less powerful than Cthulhu, which is a Great Old One ( the hairy ******** summoned in the series is just a bad version of real Cthulhu tho )
Idk but i guess we could ignore this issue
Great Old Ones cannot trapped inside the Shining Trapezohedron because if so, then Laban Shrewsbury couldn't use the power of Hastur, Vespasianus couldn't use the power of Tsathoggua or Caligula couldn't use the power of Othuum. Unless you want to say that the Great Old Ones here are also a product of Infinite Spiral. Also, in order to summon a Great Old One you need a vessel and shitload of high-ranking Grimoires, magicians. The form that you saw is just the form in mortal's eyes..
Super Demonbane COULD have reached the Outer Universe, however because Nya already bored with the fight being repetitive so she decided to erase Edgar's timeline from existence. Btw, there are eldritch beings/cosmic horrors hailed from Outer Universe but they are much, much weaker than Great Old One, Whateley/Dunwich Horror is one of the example.
But i'm thinking that while Super Demonbane have power of a GOO, it might not be able to reach the level of an GOO's existence, which should be logical for why it couldn't reach the Outer Universe.
 
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damn bro?
Great Old Ones cannot trapped inside the Shining Trapezohedron because if so, then Laban Shrewsbury couldn't use the power of Hastur, Vespasianus couldn't use the power of Tsathoggua or Caligula couldn't use the power of Othuum.
They were, for sure, just like i said in the previous comment there are this GOO and that GOO, small pp GOO are babies we saw in the Outer Universe, a product of infinite spiral created by Nyarlathotep
And big time GOO (or are the True GOO like i call them above ), and they are sealed inside the Shining Trapezohedron, and it's just like what i said in the previous comment
Unless you want to say that the Great Old Ones here are also a product of Infinite Spiral. Also, in order to summon a Great Old One you need a vessel and shitload of high-ranking Grimoires, magicians. The form that you saw is just the form in mortal's eyes..
I guess u must have misunderstood something about Demonbane verse, so, just to clarify things
As far as i know, The act of summoning (or creating to be accurate) anything in Demonbane, from items to gods, even Deus Machina or something like that, is the progress of creating, brewing, combining and structuring various Spells to make up a substance, a kind of otherworldly material, and magic user(s) can summon them into a vessel or not at their will. This is the basic thing about magic that people can learn in Miskatonic University's occult studies department, even AI has repeated this multiple times in ZanmaTaisei Demonbane.
A single spell can be casted for summoning (creating) the item, if that spell breaks and the items disappear, then they just have to recreate it with spells in Spiritual Form (ofc in Spiritual Dimension) , and finally materialize it in a form that can exist in the real world. I dont wanna write more about this since it's shown too many times in the series. And the reason why the weapons have the power of gods is just simply because theyre structured by the mages like that, base off on what they're described in the Grimorie
The same goes to Deus Machina, they are in fact just numerous Spells combined up by the mage, following a set pattern described (you should know what it means to be described in the Grimoire) in the Grimoire about a specific god, thats why theyre called "the imitations of gods", even in the Visual FanBook, in the Official website,... also describe about them like that. You can look up the Aeon summoning scenes in Kishin Taidou to get a proper illustration. About this, you may wonder if Deus Machina is just a thing that mage create based on the description in the Grimoire, then there should be more than 1 Deus Machina that 1 mage can summon, yes ? i guess ? Shrewsbury once talked about this problem
「『機神招喚』もまた魔術――」
「同じ魔導書から招喚された鬼械神でも、それを扱うもの
の属性、位階、能力によって、変化が生じるものなのだ」
We know that in a Grimoire, lots of Gods and thingy (including related weapons or such that the mage owning that Grimoire uses), Deus Machina = Immitation of God so there must be multiple robos can be called, but ofc which Deus Machina is called depends on the mage's rank and power, hope you get the drift here. In shrewsbury's situation, with a pretty much same Grimoire, Claudius and Shrewsbury both summon different Deus Machina, thats because their rank, their power is hugely different, Lord Byakhee is just a third-rate wind god wannabe just like Hazuki once called it in Kishin Hishou Demonbane, to structure Ambrose is much more complex, that's the different in power between Shrewsbury and virgin Claudius. If you noticed it's once said Aeon is the strongest evil god in Necronomicon/AI Azif, that's why it's always chosen and used by all the owners of AI.
And lastly, the same goes to Great Old Ones and such, they are, too, the description in a certain Grimoire, Cthulhu is described in R'lyeh Text, but it seems that Cthulhu is strong af and summoning the entirety of it alone is impossible for anyone , let alone use it as Deus Machina, so all of Anticross had to gather their power and finally summoned it into some arcane vessel and make it in a way that it can materialize in the real world. The same thing happening to Dagon (ofc he's described in R'lyeh Text), it's once summoned into a huge statue in some temple by Vespasianus (to test the R'lyeh Text he just found earlier) in Chapter VII : The Shadow over Innsmouth. To put it simply, using a vessel is equal to give the God summoned a material form instantly.
Just like that, i think the summoned beings are pretty much fake vesion of the real, God's real form must be somewhere out there in the Outer Universe, be killed, or be sealed ? whatever, as long as there are information about them in Grimoire, they can be summoned, so mages being able to use power of gods does not necessarily means the gods have to be here, it's just not so related. About Super Demonbane can scale with the gods/Great Old Ones, seriously idk if this refer to the summoned, or the real one. Take your time
Super Demonbane COULD have reached the Outer Universe, however because Nya already bored with the fight being repetitive so she decided to erase Edgar's timeline from existence.

But i'm thinking that while Super Demonbane have power of a GOO, it might not be able to reach the level of an GOO's existence, which should be logical for why it couldn't reach the Outer Universe.
be more consistent and careful with your words
Btw, there are eldritch beings/cosmic horrors hailed from Outer Universe but they are much, much weaker than Great Old One, Whateley/Dunwich Horror is one of the example.
You really have some nerves for saying this
If Whateley were actually born in the Outer Universe, then it must be 1a or even abit higher, how tf it can live in gap of dimensions and space-time and can be killed by something really trivial like Demonbane piloted by AI alone, which is weaker than Mars Demonbane, or even Aeon ? think about it, dont you see what you said sounds pretty unreasonable ?
Talking about this, we all know that Gods cant exist in the human world since their presence will instantly destroy the world (for example, Nyarlathotep and her avatars) , so what about the idea that this Whateley is, too, an avatar of the real one ? meh, you must think of a logical way to explain this.
 
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They were, for sure, just like i said in the previous comment there are this GOO and that GOO, small pp GOO are babies we saw in the Outer Universe, a product of infinite spiral created by Nyarlathotep
And big time GOO (or are the True GOO like i call them above ), and they are sealed inside the Shining Trapezohedron, and it's just like what i said in the previous comment
Assuming the "real" GOO are trapped inside Shining Trapezohedron, but this bugged me one thing: If the Infinite Spiral has been shattered, then shouldn't be those fake GOO aka its product gone for good?

I guess u must have misunderstood something about Demonbane verse, so, just to clarify things
As far as i know, The act of summoning (or creating to be accurate) anything in Demonbane, from items to gods, even Deus Machina or something like that, is the progress of creating, brewing, combining and structuring various Spells to make up a substance, a kind of otherworldly material, and magic user(s) can summon them into a vessel or not at their will. This is the basic thing about magic that people can learn in Miskatonic University's occult studies department, even AI has repeated this multiple times in ZanmaTaisei Demonbane.
A single spell can be casted for summoning (creating) the item, if that spell breaks and the items disappear, then they just have to recreate it with spells in Spiritual Form (ofc in Spiritual Dimension) , and finally materialize it in a form that can exist in the real world. I dont wanna write more about this since it's shown too many times in the series. And the reason why the weapons have the power of gods is just simply because theyre structured by the mages like that, base off on what they're described in the Grimorie
The same goes to Deus Machina, they are in fact just numerous Spells combined up by the mage, following a set pattern described (you should know what it means to be described in the Grimoire) in the Grimoire about a specific god, thats why theyre called "the imitations of gods", even in the Visual FanBook, in the Official website,... also describe about them like that. You can look up the Aeon summoning scenes in Kishin Taidou to get a proper illustration. About this, you may wonder if Deus Machina is just a thing that mage create based on the description in the Grimoire, then there should be more than 1 Deus Machina that 1 mage can summon, yes ? i guess ? Shrewsbury once talked about this problem

「『機神招喚』もまた魔術――」
「同じ魔導書から招喚された鬼械神でも、それを扱うもの
の属性、位階、能力によって、変化が生じるものなのだ」


We know that in a Grimoire, lots of Gods and thingy (including related weapons or such that the mage owning that Grimoire uses), Deus Machina = Immitation of God so there must be multiple robos can be called, but ofc which Deus Machina is called depends on the mage's rank and power, hope you get the drift here. In shrewsbury's situation, with a pretty much same Grimoire, Claudius and Shrewsbury both summon different Deus Machina, thats because their rank, their power is hugely different, Lord Byakhee is just a third-rate wind god wannabe just like Hazuki once called it in Kishin Hishou Demonbane, to structure Ambrose is much more complex, that's the different in power between Shrewsbury and virgin Claudius. If you noticed it's once said Aeon is the strongest evil god in Necronomicon/AI Azif, that's why it's always chosen and used by all the owners of AI.
And lastly, the same goes to Great Old Ones and such, they are, too, the description in a certain Grimoire, Cthulhu is described in R'lyeh Text, but it seems that Cthulhu is strong af and summoning the entirety of it alone is impossible for anyone , let alone use it as Deus Machina, so all of Anticross had to gather their power and finally summoned it into some arcane vessel and make it in a way that it can materialize in the real world. The same thing happening to Dagon (ofc he's described in R'lyeh Text), it's once summoned into a huge statue in some temple by Vespasianus (to test the R'lyeh Text he just found earlier) in Chapter VII : The Shadow over Innsmouth. To put it simply, using a vessel is equal to give the God summoned a material form instantly.
Just like that, i think the summoned beings are pretty much fake vesion of the real, God's real form must be somewhere out there in the Outer Universe, be killed, or be sealed ? whatever, as long as there are information about them in Grimoire, they can be summoned, so mages being able to use power of gods does not necessarily means the gods have to be here, it's just not so related. About Super Demonbane can scale with the gods/Great Old Ones, seriously idk if this refer to the summoned, or the real one. Take your time
I always thought that magicians have to connect with the real Evil Gods because they borrowed power from otherworldly gods themselves. But whatever, currently i'm considering either Super Demonbane can scale with Great Old Ones manifested/summoned in the mortal world like Cthulhu or Super Demonbane while possessing power akin to gods but it couldn't reach the same level of their existence. Another thing is Super Demonbane in Gunshin Kyuoushuu is summoned as a God, so there would be some sort of connection to Cthulhu's summoning.

I already read every work of Demonbane, including Gaiden Novels and Kishin Hishou, thanks for your advice.
You really have some nerves for saying this
If Whateley were actually born in the Outer Universe, then it must be 1a or even abit higher, how tf it can live in gap of dimensions and space-time and can be killed by something really trivial like Demonbane piloted by AI alone, which is weaker than Mars Demonbane, or even Aeon ? think about it, dont you see what you said sounds pretty unreasonable ?
Talking about this, we all know that Gods cant exist in the human world since their presence will instantly destroy the world (for example, Nyarlathotep and her avatars) , so what about the idea that this Whateley is, too, an avatar of the real one ? meh, you must think of a logical way to explain this.
Here's some clarification: Whateley is a cosmic horror being, not a legit god like Great Old One. Aeon killed it in the past, not Demonbane piloted by Al or anything, and it's unclear that Al at that point in time still have a Master or not. In Kishin Hishou however, Another Blood brought that thing back and even nastier, which now required Demonbane Trio (albeit Al is being weakened by Another Blood's spell) to defeat him, and he is much, much weaker than Zs-awia (I think you already knew what Zs-awia is). And in Kishin Houkou's Side Story we have Aeon piloted by Al and an unknown Master defeated a planetary level cosmic horror, which also described as hailing from Outer Universe.

What i'm trying to say here: Outer Universe also have other eldritchs abomination dwelled in there, however just because so doesn't mean they are as powerful as a Great Old One, let alone an Outer God. Best i can give is some sort of higher-dimensional existence, but that's all about it.

And please just calm your tone down, i'm not trying to start a fight.
 
. About Super Demonbane can scale with the gods/Great Old Ones, seriously idk if this refer to the summoned, or the real one. Take your time
I'm leaning toward the opinion that Super Demonbane and Liber Legis are comparable to the vessel of Great Old One, since Liber Legis said that he could open the Gate to destroy the world

Hmm... With this form and power, I won’t need to summon Father. Shall I try to open the “Gate” here and destroy this world then?
This would show how ridiculously strong is the real GOO residing in the Outer Universe
damn bro?

They were, for sure, just like i said in the previous comment there are this GOO and that GOO, small pp GOO are babies we saw in the Outer Universe, a product of infinite spiral created by Nyarlathotep
And big time GOO (or are the True GOO like i call them above ), and they are sealed inside the Shining Trapezohedron, and it's just like what i said in the previous comment
So we assume that there are two version of GOO:
The "fake" ones created by the Infinite Spiral
The "real" ones sealed in the ST
Setsuna's concern is that why the "fake" GOOs are still around after the destruction of the Infinite Spiral, the best answer is, there is no true or fake GOO. According to the fairy tale told by Nero, The GOOs once rampaged the Earth until the Elder God arrived the bet the shit out of them, exiling from the earth and sealed them in the "very end of the universe", aka the Outer Universe.
As for the Outer Gods they are sealed forever inside the ST for good.
So there are two keys for the GOO's tiering:
Their vessel and the real one residing in the Outer Universe.
 
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Nero's fairy tale also matched up with the lores of Elder Gods from August Derleth, which one of the main author that influenced Jin Haganyea to write Demonbane. The Great Old Ones are exiled from Earth, while the Outer Gods are forever trapped inside Shining Trapezohedron.
I agree with what ZwartD said.
 
Assuming the "real" GOO are trapped inside Shining Trapezohedron, but this bugged me one thing: If the Infinite Spiral has been shattered, then shouldn't be those fake GOO aka its product gone for good?
i think so but im not sure about this
Aeon killed it in the past, not Demonbane piloted by Al or anything, and it's unclear that Al at that point in time still have a Master or not.
oops sorry i remember it wrong, my memories on this is a bit hazy
And in Kishin Houkou's Side Story we have Aeon piloted by Al and an unknown Master defeated a planetary level cosmic horror, which also described as hailing from Outer Universe.
I dont know what to say, just checked the side story and it really is Outer Universe
An 1A-dimension being with planet level, i guess i would ignore this to avoid further confusion
What i'm trying to say here: Outer Universe also have other eldritchs abomination dwelled in there, however just because so doesn't mean they are as powerful as a Great Old One, let alone an Outer God. Best i can give is some sort of higher-dimensional existence, but that's all about it.
Okay, point taken
 
Nero's fairy tale also matched up with the lores of Elder Gods from August Derleth, which one of the main author that influenced Jin Haganyea to write Demonbane. The Great Old Ones are exiled from Earth, while the Outer Gods are forever trapped inside Shining Trapezohedron.
I agree with what ZwartD said.
just checked that part

「輝くトラペゾヘドロンには、僕達の宇宙が封ぜられていた――あれに射抜かれた者が引きずり込まれる異界の正体がそれだ」
English version: "Our Universe was sealed inside the Shining Trapezohedron. that is the world to which those pierced by it are taken"

いつか悪い神様たちは想うでしょう。
宇宙の果ての寒い場所に閉じ込められながら、悩むでしょう。
English version: "Oneday, surely, the evil gods will look back and wonder
Trapped in their cold prison at the far end of the World, they will wrack their brains for the answer"
Bro i dont find the part saying that only Great Old Ones were exiled nor only Outer Gods were sealed, it's just generally mentioned in Demonbane like the quotes above, so it's still...
Dont say you think this part is reference to the original lores so you think Demonbane, too, has the same setting though it didnt show anything like that
That sounds pretty reasonable but, just a reference, so i think there's still a possibility like the one i said
 
What Nya said is refering to the Court of Azathoth, aka Original Universe of the Outer Gods.

As for second quote, it said the Evil Gods are trapped by at the end of the Universe.

And before that, we have Nero's fairy tale said Great Old Ones ravaged the Earth, humanity cried for help and the Elder Gods appeared.

では次に――御伽噺をしよう。
とおい、とおい、むかし。
はるか昔のおはなし。
最初の人間が生まれるよりも、さらに前のお話です。
冥い星々の向こうから、生まれたばかりの地球に、『ぐれーと・おーるど・わん』と呼ばれる悪い神様たちがやって来ました。
悪い神様たちは海に空に大地に押し寄せて、お城を築き神殿を築き、地球を我が物にしてしまいました。
悪い神様たちは好き勝手に暴れて、地球に生きるみんなを苦しめました。
みんなみんな、泣きました。
地球も、痛い痛いと泣きました。
だけど神様たちはとても強くて、誰もどうすることも出来ませんでした。
みんなみんな、祈ることしか出来ませんでした。
だけど悪いことをしているのは神様なのです。
――ではいったい、誰に祈れば良いのでしょう?

Elder Gods being the antithesis of Great Old Ones is literally taken from Derleth's Mythos.
 
Update: I just added a new one called Gameboard, it's in the Part 3, you guys should check them out.
With this, Demonbane's Cosmology is finally done.
 
Having read the cosmology thread in full:

Multiverse: High 1-B
Hyperdimension: Low 1-A
Outer Universe: Dunno but at least Low 1-A. Maybe 1-A but I didn't see much evidence.
Chaos: 1-A
 
Having read the cosmology thread in full:

Multiverse: High 1-B
Hyperdimension: Low 1-A
Outer Universe: Dunno but at least Low 1-A. Maybe 1-A but I didn't see much evidence.
okay
Chaos: 1-A
How
To reach the Outer Universe you need to be 1A, that means the lowest layer of Outer Universe is 1A, from here there's infinite inter-stacked higher worlds and dimensions and whatnots, should be much higher than 1A, but cant be H1A imo
 
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To reach the Outer Universe you need to be 1A, that means the lowest layer of Outer Universe is 1A, from here there's infinite inter-stacked higher worlds and dimensions and whatnots, should be much higher than 1A, but cant be H1A imo
I didn't get this at all from reading the cosmology thread and I read every quote.
 
I didn't get this at all from reading the cosmology thread and I read every quote.
i think i will quote some of it here
For 1A Outer Universe
「それは単に一つの時空連続ではなく、実存という概念が持つ最も包括的で無制約な領域のうちの、真に死活を握る要素と結び付いた、あらゆる束縛を遁れ、空想も数字も遥かに超越した窮極的でしかも最後の領域だった」

"Not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep -- the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike."
Plus Super Demonbane who eternally enlarged and went beyond H1B structure, beyond HyperDimension and still showed no signs of giving up, still cant ever reach the Outer Universe
About Outer Universe's structure, you should check it over, maybe i would just quote some important points of OP here you can look over the scans in the original thread if needed
"The Outer Universe encompasses solely otherworldly universes of incomprehensible laws and different principles of reality."
Hastur’s domain, also known as the Great Libary, is where Demonbane and Liber Legis were sent after destroying the previous universe. Master Therion explained that they would fly across the past, the present, and the future, wandering through space-time and destroying all universes they encountered on their way. There is one thing worth noting that, while fighting across the Outer Universe, the two Deus Machine kept transcending space-time, dimensions, and causality, warping the law of every universe and going beyond the world per sec.
(Note: This fight followed a similar pattern to what Super Demonbane and Liber Legis have done in the previous light novel but, of course, on a far larger scale since the battle took place in the Outer universe where Liber Legis can go all out with full power against Kurou's Demonbane, and where Super Demonbane can never hope to reach)
^ If the fight between Super Demonbane and Super Liber Legis rampage through H1B structure and eventually destroyed and went beyond it, then so did this one, but this time it's with Outer Universe

Not to mention that Outer Universe is just one cycle, it's an infinitude of cycles out there bounded in the Ring of Yog Sothoth, and there's infinitude of Ring of Yog sothoth too. Lastly all of those is counted as 1 Klein Botte, and again there's infinte Klein Bottles
 
Don't forget about Games beyond Games, Stages beyond Stages.

Anyway i asked a friend of mine, my bad, Super Demonbane never have any hope to reach Outer Universe. He also agree about the difference between gods being summoned and their true form that exists in Outer Universe. This applied to Cthugha and Ithaqua as well, they are fragments based on the real thing and summoned via the records in Al Azif's manuscript.

In conclusion, we can divide Great Old Ones into two keys: vessel and true form. I can see Super Demonbane being scaled with vessel's GOO due to being summoned as a god.
 
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I would suggest doing what the Animal Man CRT is doing, making a TL;DR of scans for each part of the Demon Bane Universe and then working with staff and others to assign tiers to each one.
 
I would suggest doing what the Animal Man CRT is doing, making a TL;DR of scans for each part of the Demon Bane Universe and then working with staff and others to assign tiers to each one.
Will doing that once i finish with terminology post of Demonbane Mythos.
Though while Ant already tagged the staffs here, but we barely have any new comment.
 
Was asked to comment here, and based on my discussions with OP and his friends in discord, here is the tiering for the structures IMO:
  • Universe: A Low 2-C structure being Infinite and Eternal.
  • Multiverse: A High 1-B structure containing infinite levels of transcending hierarchial Universes, with each containing an infinite number of lower Universes.
  • Hyper Dimension: A Low 1-A structure beyond the Multiverse from where all Universes are seen simultaneously as bubbles.
  • Outer Universe: A 1-A structure outside the Hyper Dimension and being beyond Space and Time while being Undimensioned and housing all Great Old Ones.
  • Cycle/Loop/Eternity: A 1-A structure beyond the Outer Universe and containing the latter as part of the Cycle.
  • Ring of Yog-Sothoth: A 1-A structure beyond the Cycle/Loop/Eternity and containing an indefinite number of all previous and current Cycles/Loops/Eternities.
  • Garden of Nyarlathotep: A 1-A structure beyond the Ring of Yog-Sothoth and containing an Infinite Number of Rings.
  • Infinite Spiral: A 1-A structure beyond the Garden of Nyarlathotep where even the Garden is just a mere aspect/fraction of it.
  • Game/Gameboard: A 1-A structure beyond the Infinite Spiral, which can contain structures on a Larger Scale than the Infinite Spiral and are present in numerous numbers.
  • Stage: A 1-A structure beyond the Games and containing all of them.
  • Stages: A 1-A structure containing numerous layers of Stages, with each Stage being beyond another Stage.
  • Sea of Chaos: A High 1-A structure due to being stated as the True Infinity in relation to which all of the Cosmology is just a mere dream while itself being a completely inaccessible realm of Pure Nothingness beyond Duality and Distinction where everything is one and same and from where everything emerged from and where everything will return to eventually.
EDIT: Fixed some stuffs
 
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