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Death Battle Season Nine Discussion Thread (2) (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

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TartaChocholate said:
Odd question, but Silver was considered considerably stronger than Sonic was in his fight against Wally correct? Just wondering, it's pretty common that the updated analysis puts the same character or those of the same verse much stronger down the line. I recall Archie Sonic having an universal feat was kind of his big deal in the post Mario vs Sonic 2 Q&A.
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I feel that it is more like they failed to explain "Flash is stronger" in FlashSonic.
 
So after rereading the QnA again because I hate myself, a lot of the results came from interpretation of just a few people, so that just confirms that this battle is a lot closer.

I stick with Trunks' wincons being a bit more convincing to me, but it's been narrowed down to 55/45 split imo. I'm not surprised Silver won.
 
Ok maybe hot take for next time.



I looked into the context and Spongebob doesn't himself actually destroy the uni properly. He finds a weak string and abuses that to do it.

That said, Patrick once traveled to sun, so he'll likely get other shenanigans like that. Hell, Patrick survived the uni unraveling in that clip so maybe that is the real factor here lol
 
Imagine if we get Sakuya vs Hit and Piccolo vs Magus next season and Dragon Ball loses both episodes. I think that would be the most nightmarish losing streak for any verse on the show.

It's unlikely, like a near 0 chance, but it's not a non-zero chance.
 
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Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Imagine if we get Sakuya vs Hit and Piccolo vs Magus next season and Dragon Ball loses both episodes. I think that would be the most nightmarish losing streak for any verse on the show.

It's unlikely, like a near 0 chance, but it's not a non-zero chance.
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Depends on if Ultra is in charge of Dragon Ball scaling or not

Jk

Or am I?
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Imagine if we get Sakuya vs Hit and Piccolo vs Magus next season and Dragon Ball loses both episodes. I think that would be the most nightmarish losing streak for any verse on the show.

It's unlikely, like a near 0 chance, but it's not a non-zero chance.
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I’m gonna have a Joker arc if Dragon Ball keeps getting good fights but also keeps losing. Please, just something to break this L streak.
 
greymerlion2 said:
I’m gonna have a Joker arc if Dragon Ball keeps getting good fights but also keeps losing. Please, just something to break this L streak.
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As funny in a nightmarish way DB catching a 5 fight L streak would be, you're due to get some Ws in time. Especially with Gohan and Freiza's fights eventually.

Anyways I think Magus vs Piccolo or Gohan's next MU is most likely to be a DB dub, though I wouldn't completely count on Magus on having something under his coat. He's an RPG character, and if I learned one thing while researching Yuffie, it's to never, ever underestimate the RPG character. He probably has an argument for completely negating most of Piccolo's arsenal or some shit.



It'll probably come down to speed though, unless out profiles are missing something, Magus being a lightning timer at best would spell his L in the end.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
HERE'S MY ******* MEGA POST ABOUT THIS EPISODE, NEATLY SEPARATED FOR WHAT YOU CARE TO SEE ME TALK ABOUT

This ******* episode dude, holy shit, I have spent the entire day stressing about and being excited for it, ever since I woke up. I've had to dodge this forum, dodge several discords I'm a part of, I had to stop using Twitter cause spoiler posts and stop using Youtube cause spoiler thumbnails started cropping up, and all my friends were spoiling themselves, but despite it all, I managed to go into this episode with no spoilers, at all. I got to group watch it with a group of fellow Sonic & Dragon Ball fan friends, and we had a complete blast, I'm glad I waited for it.

I'm going to say this up front, as I am going to say a hell of a lot from here on out. This episode is incredible, I loved it, through and through. This is my favorite fight all season hands down, and likely my favorite episode, it honestly might even surpass several of S8's heaviest hitters for me. That might be a bold claim, especially for someone who was so critical of the episode going forward, but get ready cause I have to fully analyze this episode and fight.

The analysis segments were very solid! I'm not the biggest fan of Jocelyn's character, her jokes and way of delivery typically don't hit for me, but her segments on here weren't ultimately that bad and serve their purpose well. They do a very good job of discussing both character's stories, from what I can tell, I can't comment on Heroes' as well as I can Archie, but most of my DB familiar friends in the call seemed to be pretty happy with the rundown in terms of coverage. For what I can really talk about though, I enjoyed the rundown for Archie Silver, they did a good job covering his backstory, the plotlines he would be involved with, and a very good job covering his stats, scaling, and abilities. While I don't think either of these analysis segments hit me quite as well as HercKong or BondWick's, which I think were the best two analysis' this season, this one was around the same tier as Magnetsuo or Excaliden, if not even better imo. Just a very fun coverage of both characters.

Now for the part everyone actually cares about. I have a lot to say. It is almost all good, I am vibrating in my seat faster than Wally West could ever hope to.

I believe I've already talked about the fight opening plenty since I watched the preview like 20 something odd times. But it's a very good fight setup, the general best they could have given. Trunks getting on Silver's case for Time Travelling and trying to alter his future is the most sensical way for a fight between the two to start out.

The fight start is very solid as well, good character expression work, the backgrounds look nice, and so do the visual effects. While Trunks has some very minor jank, its pretty dismissible and not that big a deal. Both characters make good usage of their base abilities, Trunks' sword and ki blasts, Silver's TK, warp ring, and attack redirection, the fight flows very well, if being a little low on impact up until Silver reflects Trunks' Masenko (?), which is the point I think the fight's impact kicks up a lot more.

From here on out things start to get really crazy. Trunks immediately goes Super Saiyan to counter Silver's giant boulder, and its pretty impactful. What I didn't expect was for SILVER to IMMEDIATELY activate his Super Form in retaliation, though. While watching the fight everyone thought that it felt just a little too early for Silver to pull it out, but frankly in hindsight, it allowed for them to start going buckwild with the scale from here on out. I will admit, Silver's super transformation did feel a little less visually interesting / impactful than I would've liked, but Silver immediately no-selling the reflected attack with the loud ass SFX saves it. The dialogue here was pretty fun, Silver's dorky ass trying to seem cool just for Trunks to call him out for his copying.

This is where the fight just starts to get really good. The ******* moon exploding this early into the fight was not expected (they've really been having fun fuckign the moon up lately, huh?) and feels appropriately impactful, and the scale of Silver immediately hucking all the rocks at Trunks is palpable. All my DB friends absolutely loved the little joke with him hoping for a good pull to help him deal with it, so I'm assuming that's just a nice injoke about Xenoverse/Heroes gacha mechanics, I chuckled in the moment myself though. I liked the difference in power between some of Trunks' lower level summons being shown through the fight, where they immediately fail to counter Silver's reflected blast while Trunks is the only one who can handle it. The ******* pig immediately dying in the background was a pretty good in joke too, I wouldn't have noticed that if someone here didn't point that out, btw.

Next up might just be my favorite scene in the fight though. Silver using his TK to ******* redirect his ALREADY redirected ki blasts from Trunks' summon, JUST to pull them into his redirection of Trunks' galick gun to increase it's power even further to shatter Trunks' sword and force him to go all out before completely overpowering the attack and knocking Silver back was ******* incredible. Absolutely insane scale, impact, and it looks visually ******* awesome, and is a perfect showcase of Silver's craftiness with his TK and Attack Reflection in battle, and a good showcase of Trunks' power. People generally thought that Silver's reliance on AR & TK could spell for boring choreo, but creativity like this refutes that idea quite well. This one ******* scene is better than anything in the entirety of Archie vs Wally, and we're only halfway through the fight.

Trunks then gets to wail on Silver a bit to show how he generally dominates the fight in hand to hand combat, before he gets off an absolutely insane beam attack, visually this was on the tier of Vegeta's ******* Final Flash. My one complaint is that Silver kind of pathetically falls out of the attack with little impact. It looks like he just flopped over and fell out instead of being launched away with incredible force. This lack of impact is IMMEDIATELY made up for afterwards, with Trunks slashing Silver with the Keysword and just, all of reality and time beginning to bug the **** out. It feels like Silver's super form working against the affects of the Keysword as they both try to overpower one another, with time jittering and stopping and rewinding and continuing like wild as the visual effects and sound go ******* crazy. All while this happens Silver goes to cast Chronos Control, and gives my favorite vocal delivery in the ep, and Trunks goes to entrap him in the Eternal Time Labyrinth. I think Trunks' VA could've given this line a bit more gusto like Silver's did, but then again, Silver is the one being slashed here, not Trunks LOL. THIS could also be my favorite shot in the episode too, it's just so ******* good.

Now we get to the fight finale, which is incredible too. The backdrop of the ETL is striking, the music building up to a crazy finale, Trunks rushing forward and turning into a blue line due to the Keysword's glow, as Silver delivers a reprisal of his it's no use line in a much more triumphant, powerful way, only for Silver to utilize his Chronos & Chaos powers to override Trunks, snatching the Keysword from him and launching it right back at him, but Trunks CATCHES the sword and holds it back even as Silver's TK pushes it towards him, which forces Silver to use his TK and to grab Trunks and the sword at the same time, holding Trunks still as he forces the blade through his chest, killing Trunks as he's completely oblitherated from reality & the timeline, his death scream glitching and bugging out as he goes. I'm not sure if his death is due to Silver wiping him from existence as he's stabbed, or the effects of the Keysword ******* Trunks over, but it's still an incredibly impactful and well built up kill.

Overall, this fight was ******* incredible, everything I could have asked for. When I bitch about and complain about Archie v Wally, this is generally more of what I had in mind for what I wanted out of the fight. Fast pace, utilizing much more of the character's arsenal, more crazy scale, interesting, inventive choreography, more notable setpieces, some more character interactions, a kill that is generally a lot more comprehensible than whatever the hell happened at the end of ASonic v Wally.

My complaints with this fight are just, so minimal, they're all nitpicks, but I'll just name them off/restate them. The fight's opening, as well paced and fun as it is, is a little lacking in impact up until the first attack reflection. Silver's super transformation could've looked a bit more impactful/visually impressive, Silver being launched out of Trunks' massive **** off laser beam needed more impact/velocity, and Silver DOES kind of start to do a bit less in the fight after Trunks activates his God Ki and starts beating on him, outside of his major moments with the Keysword clash and final kill.

Also, Hedge of Tomorrow is ******* incredible, I've had it on loop the past two days, and its fighting for my favorite track this season alongside Metal Lotus honestly. I also appreciated them seemingly getting Silver's official VA on the show, it feels pretty wild to look back on the Shadow vs Mewtwo days where they intentionally had the VA sound as shitty as possible for Shadow, to going out of their way to hire the official voice actor for the character. Doubly so considering Silver was ragged on so heavily back then.

All in all, I finally have it. I finally ******* got what I've wanted for so long. I have a single, genuinely fantastic Sonic episode. An episode with a good analysis, with a ******* phenomenal fight that realizes its potential and is visually good, has no major flaws, treats its characters well, has a great battle track, it was everything I could've asked for. Easy ******* 10/10 for me, the best episode this season easily and it's probably gonna rank among my favorite episodes on the show ever. You have no ******* idea how good that feels to say, as someone who's always felt Sonic has had a bad history on the show, and as someone who probably went into this episode more critical than most others here did. I am esctatic.

So one thing I've noticed while I was scrolling this thread to catch up, is that a lot of people are discussing the verdict/outcome, and there seems to be a pretty prevailing opinion that DBH was downplayed. I have no idea what anyone is talking about here, and this seems to be due to a lot of misinformation since the episode isn't officially out yet. Before I really tackled anything anyone is saying here though, I went and read Ultra's QnA just to be sure of EVERYTHING they utilized beforehand, and it's honestly pretty extensive and covers things pretty well, it might honestly be one of the best QnA's they've ever dropped, it feels like it covers everything, considering I'm seeing it cover shit that I haven't seen a single person in this thread EVER mention, it even has those graphs that people like so much.

Trunks was put at Multiversal+ absolute minimum, and even scaled to 5D as they allowed the Crack of Time to be a higher dimensional existence. That means they had L1C Trunks, that's higher than we have here. I'm also not sure why people were shocked about the Immeasurable speed feats being put into contention, when in the BlackFlash QnA Ultra literally said the feats had contention to them. He still accounted for Immeasurable speed Trunks regardless though in the Silver v Trunks QnA though. He still got insanely high MFTL+, more than enough to shit on basically any other verse, and they acknowledged Immeasurable in the QnA meaning they'll likely get it in any future episodes. Based on what I read in the QnA and what I've seen in this thread though, is that apparently it might have been due to Immeasurable speed DBH not quite being popular knowledge at the time that the episode began development, which would explain a lot.

If you're wondering why they said Trunks could probably still take a victory or two despite the stats gap, well, they emphasized he thoroughly stat-stomped base Silver, and to my knowledge they don't scale base Silver to immeasurable, so he could probably get a few wins via killing Silver before he goes Super or a lucky Keysword slash. Honestly though they probably did throw that line in for a little bit of damage control.

ALSO NO, SONIC'S COSMOLOGY IS NOT SAID TO BE EQUAL TO DC'S, THEY SIMPLY USED IT AS AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE THE CASUAL AUDIENCE IS FAMILIAR WITH DC, IN FACT DC COSMOLOGY BEING BIGGER IS EXACTLY WHY THEY SAID ARCHIE SONIC LOST TO WALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE, WHERE DID ANYONE GET THIS ******* IDEA FROM????

Not to mention, if we wanna talk about wanking Silver, they didn't even go as far as they could've, they generally said he was comparable and should have the abilities of any other version correct? That means they could've totally brought up IDW's Biological/Cellular Manip in Super State and that definitely could've played as a wincon too.

NO ******* idea why they brought up Spawn or his multiverse potentially scaling to Archie though, even I thought that was pretty excessive / unnecessary, since its just kind of a one off gag in the comics itself, but ultimately it didn't really make a difference in the verdict since he still had scaling to higher dimensional structures and other multiverses like Archie Mega Man and Sabrina the Teenage Witch etc etc. They also emphasize in the QnA that even if Trunks had Immeasurable and even with 5D, Silver's statistics were just more impressive due to Archie's wider cosmology. Glad this seems to pretty solidly secure Archie Knux's win against Juggs unless he decides to finally stop jobbing and get some ******* insane shit soon, Archiebros going 2/3 would be nice.

OUTSIDE OF THE STATISTICAL STUFF, WHAT DID I THINK OF THIER REASONING?:

The rest is pretty solid, though. He can resist basically all of Trunks' major haxx, could redirect and turn most of his attacks against him, he could resist the Keysword's main sealing abilities, he could probably hang in for long enough against Trunks in Base Form to get his Super Transformation off, Silver was massively too skilled with Chaos Force usage and was incredibly versatile,

The QnA also goes even further in depth, it explains how Silver could counter if you allowed Trunks to call in other Time Patrol members, his counters to the stamina reduction/manip, talks about probability manip (which honestly makes it seem like even less of a factor in the fight than I expected, I probably should've looked into this more before I started saying it was one of Trunks' biggest factors in his favor, scaling chains for Heroes being too speculative and not helping in the end, Trunks not being able to time travel without his machine (which Silver could short circuit), and some other things.

The Keysword section is also pretty decent, it covers why sealing his powers would be unlikely, and why Silver could counter/escape the Eternal Time Labyrinth (and pointed out something I didn't even think of, with him ALSO having his own Sealing options), and him resisting it's other haxx just fine. The only thing I think it should have covered it the Keysword's supposed duranegging, invulnerability negging, immortality negging, and low godly regen negging abilities, they're all on this wiki so I assume there's some legitimacy to them, and they were basically the only factor for Trunks' favor that I couldn't find Silver having an explicit resistance to, unless using the argument of resisting the SGW's effects being far beyond what the Keysword's haxx/negation would be capable of is the main argument there, in which case, then yeah, I guess that covers just about everything.

So I just want to say that I think it's incredibly funny a lot of what I said throughout this board ended up being true. Silver having the advantage through dimensional tiering (can't believe they finally touched on it officially, wow) and some general statistical/haxx related things I called, having a scene where Silver and Trunks clash one another's power with devastating effects, he'd probably use the Keysword against Trunks for the kill, how he'd use it's no use against Trunks in a more triumphant way for the final kill, and it looks like he used a combination of his psychic hold alongside stabbing trunks with the Keysword for the final blow? I obviously didn't get everything right and am not trying to claim anything silly, I just think it's funny how much I ended up getting right.

I also just want to bring up some other personal things with this MU for me, that logistically shouldn't really play into any review for this episode or anything, but I still wanna just dump these thoughts in general. For one, seeing Silver, finally, FINALLY triumph in a major Vs Fight, after so many years of being a proverbial punching bag in so many communities across so many years, disrespected constantly and frequently considered to lose nearly all his MUs and having lost to Trunks in literally every single Vs Animation with the two (EXCEPT YOU ANIMATION REWIND), having him finally get his major win on the most major Vs Platform of them all, DB, is an awesome ******* feeling. My boy finally got his hard fought ******* win and he ******* deserves it. Against literally every odd, it's the most appropriate thing possible. Seeing Silver be treated with so much respect in this episode was honestly a shell shock coming from someone who grew up in the era of classic DB and witnessed the Shadow vs Mewtwo Chart the day it was posted.

Another major thing, I believe I mentioned it here, but recently, a couple months ago, a friend of mine named Gadiel passed away, he was like a little brother to me and I miss him dearly. He was a huge Sonic fan and we frequently talked about the series, and Silver was his favorite character. While he wasn't really as experienced in the comics as I was, he still loved him from the games. I think he just liked his ability set and kind of related to his awkward nature. As weird as it sounds, I've started to associate a lot of things that he loved, with him in general. His favorite cartoon was Ben 10 (he wasn't happy about BenHal LOL), his favorite game was TWEWY, he was a massive fan of the TMNT, loved Jackie Chan, etc etc. All those things are just things I associate with him strongly now. You can probably see where I'm going with this, I gained a slight personal investment in this MU of not really wanting to see Silver die again, because of how strongly I've started to associate him with that friend. So seeing him ultimately triumph in a fight everyone thought he stood no chance in, it gave a really nice feeling, and reminded me of some personal experiences of this friend pushing through a lot of things himself. This is 100% me being far too sentimental and making meaning where there isn't any, but that's just how it is for me. I'm a silly guy.

THE NEXT EPISODE IS ******* HILARIOUS. THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO ******* WAY THAT OUR FIRST DC HERALD L IS GONNA BE THIS. I FORGIVE ARCHIE SONIC BEING DENIED BEING THE FIRST DC KILLER. I FORGIVE SIMON NOT GETTING THE CHANCE TO BE THE FIRST. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY BETTER ******* TIMELINE THAN SPONGEBOB BEING THE ONE TO KILL A DC HERALD FIRST, THAT IS ASCENDANTLY FUNNY.

Jokes aside though, I'm looking forward to seeing Spongebob on the show again, this could end up being one of the most fun analysis segments they ever do, and this whole fight could be a complete blast. Supposedly Liam put his heart and soul into this one so this could end up being another sleeper ******* banger episode this season. I'm all ******* for it, lets go. I'm fine with having a nice, tame, fun episode after such an insanely close debate as this episode.

Also as an aside, I truly did enjoy debating this episode with you all over the past two weeks, this was the most fun I've had on the boards in a while, I hope future matches can be similarly close, and if not close, at least similarly fun to discuss!

Yes mucho texto I'm aware, but you all wanted it. I appreciate anyone who actually bothers to read all this word soup. Or those who only read sections of it, this is a LOT of text after all!
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Can I hire you to write my essays for me 🤣
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
As funny in a nightmarish way DB catching a 5 fight L streak would be, you're due to get some Ws in time. Especially with Gohan and Freiza's fights eventually.

Anyways I think Magus vs Piccolo or Gohan's next MU is most likely to be a DB dub, though I wouldn't completely count on Magus on having something under his coat. He's an RPG character, and if I learned one thing while researching Yuffie, it's to never, ever underestimate the RPG character. He probably has an argument for completely negating most of Piccolo's arsenal or some shit.



It'll probably come down to speed though, unless out profiles are missing something, Magus being a lightning timer at best would spell his L in the end.
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The worst thing would be Dragonball doing nothing but losing from here on out. Hit, Frieza, Piccolo, Gohan, Goku again, 17, etc. I honestly think the odds of that are negative though. Having them go on such a wide losing streak would stop being funny even for the trolls after awhile, and have people wondering if DB isn't on some spite streak suddenly with DB for some reason, lol.
 
Tipper17 said:
Piccolo and Gohan are the biggest hope for a DB W and that's praying to God DB ain't DC for them

Hit vs Sakuya boils to what they buy for Touhou side

Freiza is stomping MegaTron
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With the shoddy ass throw-in of Spawn in the latest episode, I would not be shocked if they were super-generous to Mark at this point, if they pit him against Gohan, and have him scale to Spawn, since they apparently fought in a crossover.

Though now that I say that, the reaction to them doing something like that would probably be far more apocalyptic than whatever's about to happen after Silver vs Trunks releases on YouTube, and I don't just mean from the Dragonball fans either. The clowning that might take place from allowing such scaling could end up being biblical, if they go that route, lol.
 
Derpmaster9000 said:

With the shoddy ass throw-in of Spawn in the latest episode, I would not be shocked if they were super-generous to Mark at this point, if they pit him against Gohan, and have him scale to Spawn, since they apparently fought in a crossover.

Though now that I say that, the reaction to them doing something like that would probably be far more apocalyptic than whatever's about to happen after Silver vs Trunks releases on YouTube, and I don't just mean from the Dragonball fans either. The clowning that might take place from allowing such scaling could end up being biblical, if they go that route, lol.
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My man if you wonder wats this "Spawn scailing" is it's the most nothing burger shit you ever seen and frankly does nothing at all
 
TMaakkonen said:
Ok maybe hot take for next time.



I looked into the context and Spongebob doesn't himself actually destroy the uni properly. He finds a weak string and abuses that to do it.

That said, Patrick once traveled to sun, so he'll likely get other shenanigans like that. Hell, Patrick survived the uni unraveling in that clip so maybe that is the real factor here lol
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I've been saying I don't think this feat is as impressive as people claim. It doesn't at all seem like an actual AP attack. It's basically just potent toon hax and I'm not sure if SpongeBob's durability scales to any of that higher stuff. Planet is definitely more consistent for the higher feats.

I think this comes down to how the interpret it though. If they think SpongeBob genuinely scales to those kinds of feats in physicality then he wins easily. And if he's faster in general he can just erase Aquaman.
 
Tipper17 said:
My man if you wonder wats this "Spawn scailing" is it's the most nothing burger shit you ever seen and frankly does nothing at all
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Why bother even emphasize it the way they did then? I watched the same episode as you, lad, it was a little more than a 'nothing burger'.

Again, I don't think they will scale Mark to Spawn based off the crossover, if they do him vs Gohan, as that would be ridiculous. Then again, I have seen some dolts do exactly that, so if Ultra plugs his head in his ass for that one(which I'd like to think he won't), if he's put in charge of research for it, then he needs to be retired from the research staff.
 

Feeding Magus to Piccolo shouldn't necessarily be that bad right?

Magus still fought an universal threat, he ain't a chump.

Hell, without DBS buffs Piccolo would be toast if they had done it 10+ years ago lol
 
Derpmaster9000 said:
Why bother even emphasize it the way they did then? I watched the same episode as you, lad, it was a little more than a 'nothing burger'.

Again, I don't think they will scale Mark to Spawn based off the crossover, if they do him vs Gohan, as that would be ridiculous. Then again, I have seen some dolts do exactly that, so if Ultra plugs his head in his ass for that one(which I'd like to think he won't), if he's put in charge of research for it, then he needs to be retired from the research staff.
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They won't m8 the shit will just get black box
 
@TMaakkonen doesn't Piccolo scale quite a bit into Universal by the time of the Tournament of Power? And that's ignoring Ultimate Piccolo and Orange beefy as f Piccolo.
Of course I'm not Chrono Trigger fan so perhaps Magnus has something up his sleeve, but otherwise Piccolo should solidly take the dub
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
@TMaakkonen doesn't Piccolo scale quite a bit into Universal by the time of the Tournament of Power? And that's ignoring Ultimate Piccolo and Orange beefy as f Piccolo.
Of course I'm not Chrono Trigger fan so perhaps Magnus has something up his sleeve, but otherwise Piccolo should solidly take the dub
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Before SuperHero he could but many would dubious on it given Super consistency in the base form fiasco
 
Does that mean Princess Zelda can actually win against Lucina or the other way round?

Also does that affect any future fights with Flash characters?
 
Tipper17 said:
Before SuperHero he could but many would dubious on it given Super consistency in the base form fiasco
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I mean tbf, when fighting those U6 Namekians, you could say Piccolo was decently comparable to Ultimate Gohan who did competitively fight against SSB Goku before the tournament started and was directly compared to Goku by the narrator.
So there is something there
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
HERE'S MY ******* MEGA POST ABOUT THIS EPISODE, NEATLY SEPARATED FOR WHAT YOU CARE TO SEE ME TALK ABOUT

This ******* episode dude, holy shit, I have spent the entire day stressing about and being excited for it, ever since I woke up. I've had to dodge this forum, dodge several discords I'm a part of, I had to stop using Twitter cause spoiler posts and stop using Youtube cause spoiler thumbnails started cropping up, and all my friends were spoiling themselves, but despite it all, I managed to go into this episode with no spoilers, at all. I got to group watch it with a group of fellow Sonic & Dragon Ball fan friends, and we had a complete blast, I'm glad I waited for it.

I'm going to say this up front, as I am going to say a hell of a lot from here on out. This episode is incredible, I loved it, through and through. This is my favorite fight all season hands down, and likely my favorite episode, it honestly might even surpass several of S8's heaviest hitters for me. That might be a bold claim, especially for someone who was so critical of the episode going forward, but get ready cause I have to fully analyze this episode and fight.

The analysis segments were very solid! I'm not the biggest fan of Jocelyn's character, her jokes and way of delivery typically don't hit for me, but her segments on here weren't ultimately that bad and serve their purpose well. They do a very good job of discussing both character's stories, from what I can tell, I can't comment on Heroes' as well as I can Archie, but most of my DB familiar friends in the call seemed to be pretty happy with the rundown in terms of coverage. For what I can really talk about though, I enjoyed the rundown for Archie Silver, they did a good job covering his backstory, the plotlines he would be involved with, and a very good job covering his stats, scaling, and abilities. While I don't think either of these analysis segments hit me quite as well as HercKong or BondWick's, which I think were the best two analysis' this season, this one was around the same tier as Magnetsuo or Excaliden, if not even better imo. Just a very fun coverage of both characters.

Now for the part everyone actually cares about. I have a lot to say. It is almost all good, I am vibrating in my seat faster than Wally West could ever hope to.

I believe I've already talked about the fight opening plenty since I watched the preview like 20 something odd times. But it's a very good fight setup, the general best they could have given. Trunks getting on Silver's case for Time Travelling and trying to alter his future is the most sensical way for a fight between the two to start out.

The fight start is very solid as well, good character expression work, the backgrounds look nice, and so do the visual effects. While Trunks has some very minor jank, its pretty dismissible and not that big a deal. Both characters make good usage of their base abilities, Trunks' sword and ki blasts, Silver's TK, warp ring, and attack redirection, the fight flows very well, if being a little low on impact up until Silver reflects Trunks' Masenko (?), which is the point I think the fight's impact kicks up a lot more.

From here on out things start to get really crazy. Trunks immediately goes Super Saiyan to counter Silver's giant boulder, and its pretty impactful. What I didn't expect was for SILVER to IMMEDIATELY activate his Super Form in retaliation, though. While watching the fight everyone thought that it felt just a little too early for Silver to pull it out, but frankly in hindsight, it allowed for them to start going buckwild with the scale from here on out. I will admit, Silver's super transformation did feel a little less visually interesting / impactful than I would've liked, but Silver immediately no-selling the reflected attack with the loud ass SFX saves it. The dialogue here was pretty fun, Silver's dorky ass trying to seem cool just for Trunks to call him out for his copying.

This is where the fight just starts to get really good. The ******* moon exploding this early into the fight was not expected (they've really been having fun fuckign the moon up lately, huh?) and feels appropriately impactful, and the scale of Silver immediately hucking all the rocks at Trunks is palpable. All my DB friends absolutely loved the little joke with him hoping for a good pull to help him deal with it, so I'm assuming that's just a nice injoke about Xenoverse/Heroes gacha mechanics, I chuckled in the moment myself though. I liked the difference in power between some of Trunks' lower level summons being shown through the fight, where they immediately fail to counter Silver's reflected blast while Trunks is the only one who can handle it. The ******* pig immediately dying in the background was a pretty good in joke too, I wouldn't have noticed that if someone here didn't point that out, btw.

Next up might just be my favorite scene in the fight though. Silver using his TK to ******* redirect his ALREADY redirected ki blasts from Trunks' summon, JUST to pull them into his redirection of Trunks' galick gun to increase it's power even further to shatter Trunks' sword and force him to go all out before completely overpowering the attack and knocking Silver back was ******* incredible. Absolutely insane scale, impact, and it looks visually ******* awesome, and is a perfect showcase of Silver's craftiness with his TK and Attack Reflection in battle, and a good showcase of Trunks' power. People generally thought that Silver's reliance on AR & TK could spell for boring choreo, but creativity like this refutes that idea quite well. This one ******* scene is better than anything in the entirety of Archie vs Wally, and we're only halfway through the fight.

Trunks then gets to wail on Silver a bit to show how he generally dominates the fight in hand to hand combat, before he gets off an absolutely insane beam attack, visually this was on the tier of Vegeta's ******* Final Flash. My one complaint is that Silver kind of pathetically falls out of the attack with little impact. It looks like he just flopped over and fell out instead of being launched away with incredible force. This lack of impact is IMMEDIATELY made up for afterwards, with Trunks slashing Silver with the Keysword and just, all of reality and time beginning to bug the **** out. It feels like Silver's super form working against the affects of the Keysword as they both try to overpower one another, with time jittering and stopping and rewinding and continuing like wild as the visual effects and sound go ******* crazy. All while this happens Silver goes to cast Chronos Control, and gives my favorite vocal delivery in the ep, and Trunks goes to entrap him in the Eternal Time Labyrinth. I think Trunks' VA could've given this line a bit more gusto like Silver's did, but then again, Silver is the one being slashed here, not Trunks LOL. THIS could also be my favorite shot in the episode too, it's just so ******* good.

Now we get to the fight finale, which is incredible too. The backdrop of the ETL is striking, the music building up to a crazy finale, Trunks rushing forward and turning into a blue line due to the Keysword's glow, as Silver delivers a reprisal of his it's no use line in a much more triumphant, powerful way, only for Silver to utilize his Chronos & Chaos powers to override Trunks, snatching the Keysword from him and launching it right back at him, but Trunks CATCHES the sword and holds it back even as Silver's TK pushes it towards him, which forces Silver to use his TK and to grab Trunks and the sword at the same time, holding Trunks still as he forces the blade through his chest, killing Trunks as he's completely oblitherated from reality & the timeline, his death scream glitching and bugging out as he goes. I'm not sure if his death is due to Silver wiping him from existence as he's stabbed, or the effects of the Keysword ******* Trunks over, but it's still an incredibly impactful and well built up kill.

Overall, this fight was ******* incredible, everything I could have asked for. When I bitch about and complain about Archie v Wally, this is generally more of what I had in mind for what I wanted out of the fight. Fast pace, utilizing much more of the character's arsenal, more crazy scale, interesting, inventive choreography, more notable setpieces, some more character interactions, a kill that is generally a lot more comprehensible than whatever the hell happened at the end of ASonic v Wally.

My complaints with this fight are just, so minimal, they're all nitpicks, but I'll just name them off/restate them. The fight's opening, as well paced and fun as it is, is a little lacking in impact up until the first attack reflection. Silver's super transformation could've looked a bit more impactful/visually impressive, Silver being launched out of Trunks' massive **** off laser beam needed more impact/velocity, and Silver DOES kind of start to do a bit less in the fight after Trunks activates his God Ki and starts beating on him, outside of his major moments with the Keysword clash and final kill.

Also, Hedge of Tomorrow is ******* incredible, I've had it on loop the past two days, and its fighting for my favorite track this season alongside Metal Lotus honestly. I also appreciated them seemingly getting Silver's official VA on the show, it feels pretty wild to look back on the Shadow vs Mewtwo days where they intentionally had the VA sound as shitty as possible for Shadow, to going out of their way to hire the official voice actor for the character. Doubly so considering Silver was ragged on so heavily back then.

All in all, I finally have it. I finally ******* got what I've wanted for so long. I have a single, genuinely fantastic Sonic episode. An episode with a good analysis, with a ******* phenomenal fight that realizes its potential and is visually good, has no major flaws, treats its characters well, has a great battle track, it was everything I could've asked for. Easy ******* 10/10 for me, the best episode this season easily and it's probably gonna rank among my favorite episodes on the show ever. You have no ******* idea how good that feels to say, as someone who's always felt Sonic has had a bad history on the show, and as someone who probably went into this episode more critical than most others here did. I am esctatic.

So one thing I've noticed while I was scrolling this thread to catch up, is that a lot of people are discussing the verdict/outcome, and there seems to be a pretty prevailing opinion that DBH was downplayed. I have no idea what anyone is talking about here, and this seems to be due to a lot of misinformation since the episode isn't officially out yet. Before I really tackled anything anyone is saying here though, I went and read Ultra's QnA just to be sure of EVERYTHING they utilized beforehand, and it's honestly pretty extensive and covers things pretty well, it might honestly be one of the best QnA's they've ever dropped, it feels like it covers everything, considering I'm seeing it cover shit that I haven't seen a single person in this thread EVER mention, it even has those graphs that people like so much.

Trunks was put at Multiversal+ absolute minimum, and even scaled to 5D as they allowed the Crack of Time to be a higher dimensional existence. That means they had L1C Trunks, that's higher than we have here. I'm also not sure why people were shocked about the Immeasurable speed feats being put into contention, when in the BlackFlash QnA Ultra literally said the feats had contention to them. He still accounted for Immeasurable speed Trunks regardless though in the Silver v Trunks QnA though. He still got insanely high MFTL+, more than enough to shit on basically any other verse, and they acknowledged Immeasurable in the QnA meaning they'll likely get it in any future episodes. Based on what I read in the QnA and what I've seen in this thread though, is that apparently it might have been due to Immeasurable speed DBH not quite being popular knowledge at the time that the episode began development, which would explain a lot.

If you're wondering why they said Trunks could probably still take a victory or two despite the stats gap, well, they emphasized he thoroughly stat-stomped base Silver, and to my knowledge they don't scale base Silver to immeasurable, so he could probably get a few wins via killing Silver before he goes Super or a lucky Keysword slash. Honestly though they probably did throw that line in for a little bit of damage control.

ALSO NO, SONIC'S COSMOLOGY IS NOT SAID TO BE EQUAL TO DC'S, THEY SIMPLY USED IT AS AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE THE CASUAL AUDIENCE IS FAMILIAR WITH DC, IN FACT DC COSMOLOGY BEING BIGGER IS EXACTLY WHY THEY SAID ARCHIE SONIC LOST TO WALLY IN THE FIRST PLACE, WHERE DID ANYONE GET THIS ******* IDEA FROM????

Not to mention, if we wanna talk about wanking Silver, they didn't even go as far as they could've, they generally said he was comparable and should have the abilities of any other version correct? That means they could've totally brought up IDW's Biological/Cellular Manip in Super State and that definitely could've played as a wincon too.

NO ******* idea why they brought up Spawn or his multiverse potentially scaling to Archie though, even I thought that was pretty excessive / unnecessary, since its just kind of a one off gag in the comics itself, but ultimately it didn't really make a difference in the verdict since he still had scaling to higher dimensional structures and other multiverses like Archie Mega Man and Sabrina the Teenage Witch etc etc. They also emphasize in the QnA that even if Trunks had Immeasurable and even with 5D, Silver's statistics were just more impressive due to Archie's wider cosmology. Glad this seems to pretty solidly secure Archie Knux's win against Juggs unless he decides to finally stop jobbing and get some ******* insane shit soon, Archiebros going 2/3 would be nice.

OUTSIDE OF THE STATISTICAL STUFF, WHAT DID I THINK OF THIER REASONING?:

The rest is pretty solid, though. He can resist basically all of Trunks' major haxx, could redirect and turn most of his attacks against him, he could resist the Keysword's main sealing abilities, he could probably hang in for long enough against Trunks in Base Form to get his Super Transformation off, Silver was massively too skilled with Chaos Force usage and was incredibly versatile,

The QnA also goes even further in depth, it explains how Silver could counter if you allowed Trunks to call in other Time Patrol members, his counters to the stamina reduction/manip, talks about probability manip (which honestly makes it seem like even less of a factor in the fight than I expected, I probably should've looked into this more before I started saying it was one of Trunks' biggest factors in his favor, scaling chains for Heroes being too speculative and not helping in the end, Trunks not being able to time travel without his machine (which Silver could short circuit), and some other things.

The Keysword section is also pretty decent, it covers why sealing his powers would be unlikely, and why Silver could counter/escape the Eternal Time Labyrinth (and pointed out something I didn't even think of, with him ALSO having his own Sealing options), and him resisting it's other haxx just fine. The only thing I think it should have covered it the Keysword's supposed duranegging, invulnerability negging, immortality negging, and low godly regen negging abilities, they're all on this wiki so I assume there's some legitimacy to them, and they were basically the only factor for Trunks' favor that I couldn't find Silver having an explicit resistance to, unless using the argument of resisting the SGW's effects being far beyond what the Keysword's haxx/negation would be capable of is the main argument there, in which case, then yeah, I guess that covers just about everything.

So I just want to say that I think it's incredibly funny a lot of what I said throughout this board ended up being true. Silver having the advantage through dimensional tiering (can't believe they finally touched on it officially, wow) and some general statistical/haxx related things I called, having a scene where Silver and Trunks clash one another's power with devastating effects, he'd probably use the Keysword against Trunks for the kill, how he'd use it's no use against Trunks in a more triumphant way for the final kill, and it looks like he used a combination of his psychic hold alongside stabbing trunks with the Keysword for the final blow? I obviously didn't get everything right and am not trying to claim anything silly, I just think it's funny how much I ended up getting right.

I also just want to bring up some other personal things with this MU for me, that logistically shouldn't really play into any review for this episode or anything, but I still wanna just dump these thoughts in general. For one, seeing Silver, finally, FINALLY triumph in a major Vs Fight, after so many years of being a proverbial punching bag in so many communities across so many years, disrespected constantly and frequently considered to lose nearly all his MUs and having lost to Trunks in literally every single Vs Animation with the two (EXCEPT YOU ANIMATION REWIND), having him finally get his major win on the most major Vs Platform of them all, DB, is an awesome ******* feeling. My boy finally got his hard fought ******* win and he ******* deserves it. Against literally every odd, it's the most appropriate thing possible. Seeing Silver be treated with so much respect in this episode was honestly a shell shock coming from someone who grew up in the era of classic DB and witnessed the Shadow vs Mewtwo Chart the day it was posted.

Another major thing, I believe I mentioned it here, but recently, a couple months ago, a friend of mine named Gadiel passed away, he was like a little brother to me and I miss him dearly. He was a huge Sonic fan and we frequently talked about the series, and Silver was his favorite character. While he wasn't really as experienced in the comics as I was, he still loved him from the games. I think he just liked his ability set and kind of related to his awkward nature. As weird as it sounds, I've started to associate a lot of things that he loved, with him in general. His favorite cartoon was Ben 10 (he wasn't happy about BenHal LOL), his favorite game was TWEWY, he was a massive fan of the TMNT, loved Jackie Chan, etc etc. All those things are just things I associate with him strongly now. You can probably see where I'm going with this, I gained a slight personal investment in this MU of not really wanting to see Silver die again, because of how strongly I've started to associate him with that friend. So seeing him ultimately triumph in a fight everyone thought he stood no chance in, it gave a really nice feeling, and reminded me of some personal experiences of this friend pushing through a lot of things himself. This is 100% me being far too sentimental and making meaning where there isn't any, but that's just how it is for me. I'm a silly guy.

THE NEXT EPISODE IS ******* HILARIOUS. THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO ******* WAY THAT OUR FIRST DC HERALD L IS GONNA BE THIS. I FORGIVE ARCHIE SONIC BEING DENIED BEING THE FIRST DC KILLER. I FORGIVE SIMON NOT GETTING THE CHANCE TO BE THE FIRST. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY BETTER ******* TIMELINE THAN SPONGEBOB BEING THE ONE TO KILL A DC HERALD FIRST, THAT IS ASCENDANTLY FUNNY.

Jokes aside though, I'm looking forward to seeing Spongebob on the show again, this could end up being one of the most fun analysis segments they ever do, and this whole fight could be a complete blast. Supposedly Liam put his heart and soul into this one so this could end up being another sleeper ******* banger episode this season. I'm all ******* for it, lets go. I'm fine with having a nice, tame, fun episode after such an insanely close debate as this episode.

Also as an aside, I truly did enjoy debating this episode with you all over the past two weeks, this was the most fun I've had on the boards in a while, I hope future matches can be similarly close, and if not close, at least similarly fun to discuss!

Yes mucho texto I'm aware, but you all wanted it. I appreciate anyone who actually bothers to read all this word soup. Or those who only read sections of it, this is a LOT of text after all!
Click to expand...


Very beautiful breakdown my brotha, I resonate a lot with. This episode takes the cake for best vid of S9 easily
 
Art commision of this years S9.
8671758-1935604124-7jab8.png
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I mean tbf, when fighting those U6 Namekians, you could say Piccolo was decently comparable to Ultimate Gohan who did competitively fight against SSB Goku before the tournament started and was directly compared to Goku by the narrator.
So there is something there
Click to expand...
Yeah but there was arguments to argue against it
Superhero made it easier to soldify Piccolo getting Dem Uni Scailing
 
BTW, I'm a bit surprised that no one's mentioned so far that they brought up GOKU VS BEERUS AGAIN!!!
And the caps ain't rage in case you were worried, I'm just genuinely shocked they even mentioned it to begin with when I and a few others made a joke about it before the fight's release. Now I can understand them mentioning it if just to illustrate how much stronger Trunks is, but I think mentioning Trunks's ability to fight and beat enemies who can destroy the entire multiverse is more then enough and doesn't require the tried and true Goku vs Beerus feat
 
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