DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Hi, since the the tiering system has been changed not too long ago. I decided to overlook the DC Cosmology blog page and wanted to revise the tiering and explanation on the blog. @Elizio33 is handling the Crisis Cosmology section of the blog. So I decided to handle J.M. DeMatteis and Vertigo since I previously did so in the old system but decided to reformat it to make it easier.

Cosmology Blog:​

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

J.M. DeMatteis:​

The Material Realms:​

The first portion that needs to be changed is the tiering for every category.

So the material plane is accepted as this:

Tiering: There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. All multiversal feats are 2-A.

Now, obviously, there's some fixing that needs to be done. J.M. DeMatteis fixates on the idea that Creation is nothing but a Dream dreamt by God. There are dreams within dreams on every level of existence and this notion is infinitely repeating.

Which the notion of something being a dream of something else is accepted to be 1-A under this revision with supporting context:

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

So with that being said we can concur a new explanation and a new rating. So for the material plane:

Tiering: There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. The material plane is just the debased level of Creation called the Gross Plane. Everything in Creation is a result of a dream in a dream. The material plane encompasses all the simplest levels driven by the five senses. Due to its relation to being just a dream in the higher planes, it would warrant a 1-A rating, and because there's limitless potential and possibility. Its hierarchical positing pivots a hierarchy of R>F transcendence thus the “+” modifier can be used. So any Multiversal feat of any degree affecting the material plane is 1-A and total destruction as 1-A+.

The Metaphysical Realms:​

The metaphysical realms transcend the whole of the material plane. As some analogy puts the concept in these higher planes transcends that of the lower ones. Due to them being inaccessible by the Gross body and the Soul needed to move into the next stage of existence would warrant a transcendence tier that's meta in nature.

Before:

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

Miscellaneous:​

Now, in the story Green Lantern: Willworld. There's a concept that was reintroduced from the Doctor Fate series called the “Ocean of Dreams.”
Essentially, this is a metaphysical plane nearest to God where the Soul turns into pure energy only looking toward God’s love. Their unconscious but like everything else are dreaming of the entire Cosmology below such as the material plane and their own conventional Heaven.

After:

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper then the Material World, giving them a meta-transcendence nature and a superior level of existence. This means any higher plane including Heaven, Hell, and the Collective Unconscious would be High 1-A. While the Totality of Creaction which includes the Sea of Love that once was the Sea of Nothing would warrant a “+” modifier. So any destruction that leads to the complete destruction of Creation itself will be High 1-A+.

Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma:​

Pralaya's previous description was this:

Tiering: Mahapralaya/Pralaya is the Void of infinite nothingness that predate Creation and is the source from which all things emerged and will return, giving her 2 degrees of infinity above Low 2-C, making her Low 1-C.

Obviously, this has to change and here is the fix:

Tiering: Mahapralaya/Pralaya is the Void of infinite nothingness that predates Creation and is the source from which all things emerged and will return, giving her High 1-A+ rating. She's the Cosmological apex representing the infinite unconscious of God making her the byproduct of what a Boundless being can produce.

The Divine Presence/The Smile/God:​

This was the previous description of God:

Tiering: The Divine Presence is 1-C, as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya infinitely, holding them as mere parts of its dream.

This will be changed to this:

Tiering: The Divine Presence is 0, as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya infinitely, holding them as mere parts of its dream. God is non-dual as it exists beyond all intrinsic opposites, also changeless and eternal Void beyond all voids existing beyond the threshold of consciousness. Being the thing behind, beyond, within all things acting as an indivisible, immutable, and source for all of Creation.

Vertigo:​

This one is interesting because I'm not only changing the tiering but also removing some untrue notions.

The Presence’s Creation:​

The current explanation is this:

As the Presence's creation contains the domains of the Endless, as separate but encompassed extensions to the infinite timelines, all feats involving the entire structure are Low 1-C.

So, obviously, we can keep the Endless as part of the Presence’s Creation. Since the Dreaming is described as more “real than real”, which is accepted as 1-A as long as there's no real anti-feat. More importantly, the Dreaming scales to the City of Stars which is treated as “real above real.” In Sandman #2 it was explained Dream of the Endless and the Dreaming are one and with enough given dreams the whole of Creation changes. Thus all realms scale to the City of Stars which is a good candidate for 1-A.

So we can change it to this:

As the Presence's creation contains the domains of the Endless, as separate but encompassed extensions of realms that exist within his creation. Also, the Presence domain contains infinite timelines, dimensions, and realms, the material world is often regarded as the debased level of Creation. All feats involving the entire structure are 1-A.

Heaven, Silver City, and Hell:​

Before:

The Silver City/Heaven and Hell are Low 1-C. The Silver City predates and transcends Creation, which has infinite timelines, and Hell is its dark reflection.

After:

The Silver City/Heaven and Hell are 1-A. Realms such as these are described to be beyond physical measure as such concepts are deemed useless there. Heaven predates Creation and the Silver City, a part of Heaven, sees the Universe below it as glistens and glitters of stars and nebulae like that of a child’s toy. Each soul harbors millions of Heaven and the afterlife contains the likes of the Mansions of Silence.

The Endless:​

Before:

All Endless: Delirium, Despair, Desire, Destruction, Dream are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. The Endless are the primal truths of the Presence's creation and oversees every aspect of it. Dream's oldest incarnation exists outside of space and time and is a part of the eldritch abominations that exists in space beneath space and space beyond space.

After:

All Endless: Delirium, Despair, Desire, Destruction, Dream are 1-A. The Endless are the primal truths of the Presence's creation and oversees every aspect of it. Dream's oldest incarnation exists outside of space and time and is a part of the eldritch abominations that exists in space beneath space and space beyond space.

The Basanos:​

Before:

The Basanos are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. As seen above, the Basanos are meant to mimic Destiny's book and the lenses through which all infinite possibilities of Creation are focused. They are a considerable threat to the likes of the Archangels and can harm Lucifer.

After:

The Basanos are 1-A. As seen above, the Basanos are meant to mimic Destiny's book and the lenses through which all infinite possibilities of Creation are focused. They are a considerable threat to the likes of the Archangels and can harm Lucifer.

The Council of the First Circle:​

Before:

The Council of the First Circle are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. They predate the Presence's creation and made the its laws and the rules which the Endless follow[210] and Glory and was unaffected when reality, The Endless and Destiny's Book was rewritten by the dreams and imaginations of a thousand dreamers.

After:

The Council of the First Circle are 1-A. They predate the Presence's creation and made the its laws and the rules which the Endless follow[210] and Glory and was unaffected when reality, The Endless and Destiny's Book was rewritten by the dreams and imaginations of a thousand dreamers.

Mother Night and Father Time:​

Before:

Night and Time are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. They predate all versions of Creation that were changed by dreams, their interplay is what made all version of Creation possible, and they are the source of the reality changing power of dreams which can retroactively change Creation and creates gods, including Presence.

After:

Night and Time are 1-A. They predate all versions of Creation that were changed by dreams, their interplay is what made all versions of Creation possible, and they are the source of the reality-changing power of dreams which can retroactively change Creation and create gods, including the Presence. Night is in a place of untime and unspace beyond all events horizon where she lacks any concepts: dreams, light, information. Time is the primal motion that pushed Creation into coming, as he gave Destiny his book, and sees all of Creation as one single continuum as he existed beyond the change of Creation before and after Morpheus fixed it.

Mansions of Silence:​

Before:

The Mansions of Silence are Low 1-C. It's far beyond Heaven which transcends the Presence's creation, although there are fragile structures.

After:

The Mansions of Silence are 1-A. The realm beyond conventional Heaven and located in the eastern border in which the world and metaphysical plane meet called “Armeggdeon Plain.” This structure contains mirrors of illusions that were once Creations of the Presence and its multiplicity of infinity.

The Presence and the Archangels:​

Before:

The Presence/Yahweh is 1-C. He is the creator of Creation and all higher realms such as Heaven and Hell. He created all the Archangels and can easily destroy them and he defined every variable, the physical rules with his own will. Everything happens because he makes it happen.

The Archangels such as Michael and Lucifer are 1-C. They scale to Heaven which transcends the 2-A Creation. Lucifer is far more powerful than Dream of the Endless.[220] Space-time is an extension of the mind of Will which Lucifer embodies, and he destroyed Logos with a touch which is the first word which sung all of existence into being.[221] It was stated that Elaine should push the "absence of space" of the Void in order create a new cosmos which should mean that she can affect the Void. Elaine with Demiurgic powers scales to Michael and Michael scales to Lucifer.

After:

• The Presence/Yahweh is 1-A. He is the creator of Creation and all higher realms such as Heaven and Hell. He created all the Archangels and can easily destroy them and he defined every variable, the physical rules with his own will. Everything happens because he makes it happen. There's a rub since it was revealed that everything shown through what we see of Yahweh, is simply a manifestation of an aspect from a truer being. This is why Yahweh told Lucifer in an analogy that all things even the Void are part of his greater being and goes on to describe himself as “infinite and eternal” the same description used by Lucifer to describe the “Void.” Dreams gave faith and substances to this changeless and formless being, that permeates all things in the Void as simply a piece of him even when Lucifer metaphorically jumps across the Universe into the Void to create a Creation, the Presence will still work there. So while, Yahweh is 1-A, due to the possibility of just being a simple emanation of a greater being that scales to the Void and possible surpasses it will warrant two layers into 1-A for surpassing Creation and the Archangels.

The Demiurgic Archangels such as Michael and Lucifer are 1-A. They scale to Heaven which transcends the 1-A material Creation. Lucifer is far more powerful than Dream of the Endless.[205]Space-time is an extension of the mind of Will which Lucifer embodies, and he destroyed Logos with a touch which is the first word which sung all of existence into being.[206] It was stated that Elaine should push the "absence of space" of the Void in order create a new cosmos which should mean that she can affect the Void. Elaine with Demiurgic powers scales to Michael and Michael scales to Lucifer.

The Void:​

Before:

The Void is 1-C as it's beyond space-time and the hierarchy of dimensions and transcends it completely.

After:

The Void is 1-A as it is beyond space-time and the hierarchy of dimensions and transcends it completely. Encompassing and surpassing the totality of Creation, Night, Time, and all Creation not filling even a portion of its infinity as they amount to 0 to a portion they can fill up. Completely transcends levels of Creation and all the ones as insignificant things that fill and teem the Void with life.

Removal:​

True extent of the Endless:​

This was what was proposed in the section for the Endless and their apparent “true extent:”

It was displayed more than once that the Endless are explicitly not bound to one Creation. When we see Dream, or Destiny, or Death, we are only looking at one point of view.[209] So, any Creations we have seen in the Void share a similar nature to the Endless, which is basically seen when all of Dream aspects were brought together. The Endless likely exists in all of these versions of Creation. Death was the only Endless supposed to last longer than the current version of Creation.

The Endless are the primal truths of the universe, so the universe and the Endless having basically the same nature is not really that farfetched. What we were shown in the Void when there were many Lucifer is basically this.[211]

Now, if the Council of the First Circle set down the rules for everything when all was still Void, and Dream (presumably his siblings as well) was present, that means that the true extent of the Endless goes far beyond one single Creation, it is inherent to all versions of Creation. And that is supported by Death appearing in Lucifer's completely separate Creation.

There’s some problem with these absurd claims. The Endless is just the side-effect of the approach of creation-making. It has never been stated that the Endless exists outside the main Creation. This is evidently made clear because Night and Time permeate all versions of the same Creation, not all Creations.

Death appearing in Lucifer's Creation isn't due to her having influence there. She literally said she wanted to see what would happen and was dying to talk to Lucifer. This also is clear since the Basanos’s vision was impaired due to the Book of Souls from Destiny being a foreign object here and only native to the main Creation.

Also, if you didn't know all those Dreams we saw are within one Creation. There are just multiplicity viewpoints of the same concept in different reiterations of Creation, and not separate Creations.

So what can we do? This:

• Remove the true extent from the Endless except for Dream(I’ll explain later) and remove the idea Night and Time permeates all Creations in the Void as opposed to just all versions of the same Creation.

Remove the idea that all Creation is the same in the Void. Since those Creations are not the “same version” that's specifically just the main Creation.

So remove the bolded part:

It's important to note that are three Creations in the Void, those of the Presence, Lucifer and Elaine Belloc,[179] which were later combined by Elaine when she replaced the Presence. There is only one Creation present and after it ends, a new "version" will rise therefore any other Creations seen in the Void are basically just versions of the same Creation as time has no real meaning in the Void, they all exist simultaneously, as seen when Lucifer flew into the Void with different versions of himself. This is why Lucifer said that in the Void it does not matter whether the Silk Man comes from a Creation before or after that of the Presence.

Addition:​

Jin En Mok species for the Cosmology blog. Also, change Cestis rating from Low 1-C, possibly 1-C to just 1-A.

Dream should have two keys: Point of View | True Dream. As the story have explained Morpehus and by an extent Daniel Hall are just small fragments of a bigger whole. They are just one small aspect of a bigger, truer concept.

Yggdrasil is a realm that connects all worlds and realms. Its destruction would affect all things.

Miscellaneous:​

All of Creation is mapped by the Tree of Life and its sefirot. The weirdness of this comes with the fact that there's apparently a Monad, and Keter is described as an “unknowable, irreducible, all-encompassing” and “boundless apogee.” Very descriptive things for 0 ratings. Not to mention the mention of Monad. Plus, the Tree of Life could give a sense of 1-A rating scaling of five or more layers of 1-A. However, that's for you guys to decide.

 

[GrandSho]

Agree with all you say.

All of Creation is mapped by the Tree of Life and its sefirot. The weirdness of this comes with the fact that there's apparently a Monad, and Keter is described as an “unknowable, irreducible, all-encompassing” and “boundless apogee.” Very descriptive things for 0 ratings. Not to mention the mention of Monad. Plus, the Tree of Life could give a sense of 1-A rating scaling of five or more layers of 1-A. However, that's for you guys to decide.

It is true and is said by Wan that he feels higher realities beckoning him to ascened to higher level. It must be these speheres that he feels. The spheres are said to be emanating from the ineffable.

 

[GrandSho]

Do you mind me asking where the Swamp Thing and Parliament of Worlds will be kept? I think around the same ballpark as the City of Stars is suitable

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @ProfectusInfinity

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

Can you have a High 1-A+ and a Tier 0 in the same franchise? Other than that point everything looks straightforward. Though if the Divine Presence is 0 then thr Tree of Life also can't be 0 afaik.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Can you have a High 1-A+ and a Tier 0 in the same franchise? Other than that point everything looks straightforward. Though if the Divine Presence is 0 then thr Tree of Life also can't be 0 afaik.

It is possible yes, a High 1-A+ can itself be a manifestation of the finite avatar of the unlimited 0

an example accepted by ultima

God (Seekers into the Mystery)

God is the central character of the graphic novel Seekers Into the Mystery, written by J.M DeMatteis. He is the ultimate reality and utmost source of all things, being the ocean of nothingness (And also of pure love) from which all of existence emanated, having been created so as to express...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Can you have a High 1-A+ and a Tier 0 in the same franchise?

Doesn’t the entire reasoning for High 1-A+ ainur come from Iru being Boundless.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Do you mind me asking where the Swamp Thing and Parliament of Worlds will be kept? I think around the same ballpark as the City of Stars is suitable

Good question. I mean, I don't know if Swamp Thing scales to the entire City. Though, I don't think the Parliament of Worlds really needs a profile. They're capable of making 4D construction so there's that, but their scaling is wonky.

Now since I did say all Far Realms scale to each other then perhaps the Red, Green, Grey, and all other forms are 1-A. Though, I don't think their inclusion is all that necessary:

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Can you have a High 1-A+ and a Tier 0 in the same franchise? Other than that point everything looks straightforward. Though if the Divine Presence is 0 then thr Tree of Life also can't be 0 afaik.

Yeah, High 1-A+(type 2) is essentially the peak of the Cosmological hierarchy while 0 simply exists outside any/all hierarchy. If 0 were to produce some sort of power or influence that scale in which it does becomes High 1-A+. Pralaya being an aspect of God ie his unconscious warrants that rating since she's second only to God and she's the highest you can go under a hierarchy.

Also, in case you're misreading it. Divine Presence being 0 is from J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology. The possible 0 for Keter or Monad is for Vertigo.

 

[LazyMortician]

Good question. I mean, I don't know if Swamp Thing scales to the entire City. Though, I don't think the Parliament of Worlds really needs a profile. They're capable of making 4D construction so there's that, but their scaling is wonky.

Now since I did say all Far Realms scale to each other then perhaps the Red, Green, Grey, and all other forms are 1-A. Though, I don't think their inclusion is all that necessary:

You both know Swamp Thing isn't part of the Vertigo cosmology, right? I don't actually mind this, but Hellblazer and Swamp Thing have a very busy streaming flow. On the other hand, we can reference all the series in the rebooted Sandman Universe.

Sturges' House of Mystery series is quite interesting. The Garden Order is an example of this, with the presbyter beetles and many other primitive inhabitants creating their own individual universes from infinitesimal pieces of dung.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

You both know Swamp Thing isn't part of the Vertigo cosmology, right? I don't actually mind this, but Hellblazer and Swamp Thing have a very busy streaming flow. On the other hand, we can reference all the series in the rebooted Sandman Universe.

Yeah, that's why I said their inclusion isn't all that necessary. Especially since they aren’t mentioned in the Cosmology blog.

Sturges' House of Mystery series is quite interesting. The Garden Order is an example of this, with presbyter beetles and many other primitive inhabitants creating their own individual universes from infinitesimal pieces of dung.

If you think you have some good scans then do send them here. Any additional information is welcomed.

 

[GrandSho]

You both know Swamp Thing isn't part of the Vertigo cosmology, right? I don't actually mind this, but Hellblazer and Swamp Thing have a very busy streaming flow. On the other hand, we can reference all the series in the rebooted Sandman Universe.

On what basis is the split done then if Swamp Thing is not part of Vertigo? Swamp Thing was a driving force for the creation both the Vertigo imprint and the Sandman Universe. DC itself viewed the work as part of Vertigo as all the succeeding issues and sequels along with the reprints of early sagas were published under Vertigo.

 

[LazyMortician]

On what basis is the split done then if Swamp Thing is not part of Vertigo? Swamp Thing was a driving force for the creation both the Vertigo imprint and the Sandman Universe. DC itself viewed the work as part of Vertigo as all the succeeding issues and sequels along with the reprints of early sagas were published under Vertigo.

It doesn't matter that it was released under the name Vertigo, the series has a more subjective flow and length. Swamp Thing is older than Sandman and naturally there are contradictions at some points. Same with Hellblazer. Different authors have many interpretations within the series.

If you think you have some good scans then do send them here. Any additional information is welcomed.

Of course. There.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Of course. There.

Interesting. Though, I don't think that scales anywhere.

 

[LazyMortician]

Interesting. Though, I don't think that scales anywhere.

Considering how primitive and conceptual it is, this realm beyond materiality must have the same scale as other distant realms and universes. For if Mr. Hemlock does not prevent the garden's infighting, destruction could spill over into countless universes outside the Garden Order.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Considering how primitive and conceptual it is, this realm beyond materiality must have the same scale as other distant realms and universes. For if Mr. Hemlock does not prevent the garden's infighting, destruction could spill over into countless universes outside the Garden Order.

Sounds sort of like Yggdrasil, in a way. Perhaps, that seems fine though it's not part of the Cosmology blog, so you might need to make a separate CRT to include that.

 

[LazyMortician]

Sounds sort of like Yggdrasil, in a way. Perhaps, that seems fine though it's not part of the Cosmology blog, so you might need to make a separate CRT to include that.

I don't think so. Maybe for Black Label, yes, but it would be unnecessary to open a CRT for such things.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't think so. Maybe for Black Label, yes, but it would be unnecessary to open a CRT for such things.

Put your proposal of it here then I'll check it out.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, the Black Label is accepted as canon to the Vertigo Cosmology.

 

[LazyMortician]

Put your proposal of it here then I'll check it out.

Not yet.

Also, the Black Label is accepted as canon to the Vertigo Cosmology.

It already is. Black Label's series are used in the P&A section of the profiles, but they are ignored in the cosmology blog.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It already is. Black Label's series are used in the P&A section of the profiles, but they are ignored in the cosmology blog.

It is ignored. However, they aren't rejected.

 

[LazyMortician]

It is ignored. However, they aren't rejected.

There are very important nuances, and also not just for the upper echelons of cosmology. Therefore, it is necessary to expand the reference range and make a CRT accordingly. But first of all, I don't see any harm in accepting this.

 

[Deagonx]

There are dreams within dreams on every level of existence and this notion is infinitely repeating.

Which the notion of something being a dream of something else is accepted to be 1-A under this revision with supporting context:
So with that being said we can concur a new explanation and a new rating. So for the material plane:

I wouldn't agree with this. Our new R>F standards stipulate a "baseline" level of existence, and in DeMatteis' cosmology that would just be the material plane itself. The notion that there are dreams underneath it wouldn't make destroying the material plane 1-A.

The Metaphysical Realms:​

The metaphysical realms transcend the whole of the material plane. As some analogy puts the concept in these higher planes transcends that of the lower ones. Due to them being inaccessible by the Gross body and the Soul needed to move into the next stage of existence would warrant a transcendence tier that's meta in nature.

Before:

Miscellaneous:​

Now, in the story Green Lantern: Willworld. There's a concept that was reintroduced from the Doctor Fate series called the “Ocean of Dreams.”
Essentially, this is a metaphysical plane nearest to God where the Soul turns into pure energy only looking toward God’s love. Their unconscious but like everything else are dreaming of the entire Cosmology below such as the material plane and their own conventional Heaven.

After:

I don't think this follows either? High 1-A means completely transcending the R>F layers. I can't see that description applying to anyone except God himself in DeMatteis' cosmology.

Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma:​

Pralaya's previous description was this:
Obviously, this has to change and here is the fix:

The Divine Presence/The Smile/God:​

This was the previous description of God:
This will be changed to this:

We'd need a separate thread to handle the Tier 0 stuff. Also, if Pralaya is not being considered to be on the same level as God, I don't see how she can be High 1-A+ or even High 1-A.

So, obviously, we can keep the Endless as part of the Presence’s Creation. Since the Dreaming is described as more “real than real”, which is accepted as 1-A as long as there's no real anti-feat. More importantly, the Dreaming scales to the City of Stars which is treated as “real above real.” In Sandman #2 it was explained Dream of the Endless and the Dreaming are one and with enough given dreams the whole of Creation changes. Thus all realms scale to the City of Stars which is a good candidate for 1-A.

When was "more real than real" accepted as 1-A?

-------------------------------

Okay, I'm just going to stop myself there because it's already getting ridiculously long. I have to say I strongly strongly disagree with applying this thread in it's current form. The proposals in this thread are too complex to handle this many at once, I don't want to apply sweeping upgrades on such a basis across the entire verse without fully discussing them. At the very longest we should only be doing a single cosmology at a time, and since most of this pertains to 1-A, High 1-A, and Tier 0 I have to think it'll need to go in the queue.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I wouldn't agree with this. Our new R>F standards stipulate a "baseline" level of existence, and in DeMatteis' cosmology that would just be the material plane itself. The notion that there are dreams underneath it wouldn't make destroying the material plane 1-A.

I don’t recall saying there are dreams underneath it. However, DeMatteis loves the idea everything is under, above, and between. Though, the material plane is the most debased and simplest level concurs there isn't a dream underneath it. I don't recall any of his stories mentioning this, so this point is moot.

I don't think this follows either? High 1-A means completely transcending the R>F layers. I can't see that description applying to anyone except God himself in DeMatteis' cosmology.

Yeah, the Ocean of Dreams which is till part of the metaphysical realms dreams on an entire hierarchy of 1-A+ and High 1-A below it as nothing more than a dream. This is in the same vein God dreamed of the entire Cosmology below it as just a dream.

We'd need a separate thread to handle the Tier 0 stuff. Also, if Pralaya is not being considered to be on the same level as God, I don't see how she can be High 1-A+ or even High 1-A.

Because God is 0? She literally transcends Creation and all of it being the very unconscious of God. What a 0 can produce becomes High 1-A+.

When was "more real than real" accepted as 1-A?

In the same way that it means the same as real above real. Plus, the Dreaming scales to the City, either way, though I wouldn't differentiate things like more real than real as any different than real above real, seems semantical to say otherwise.

-------------------------------

Okay, I'm just going to stop myself there because it's already getting ridiculously long. I have to say I strongly strongly disagree with applying this thread in it's current form. The proposals in this thread are too complex to handle this many at once, I don't want to apply sweeping upgrades on such a basis across the entire verse without fully discussing them. At the very longest we should only be doing a single cosmology at a time, and since most of this pertains to 1-A, High 1-A, and Tier 0 I have to think it'll need to go in the queue.

I don't think it's at all complicated. All it does is simply change the tiering reasoning. Everything else just stays the same. Ultima has made much longer threads than this, so I don't see the problem with it.

 

[LazyMortician]

When was "more real than real" accepted as 1-A?

It is not more real than real but rather a realm above real. It is more real than the levels of dream and reality below it, and the Stars themselves are the cancer that will destroy the universe.

 

[Asterotheology]

Okay, I'm just going to stop myself there because it's already getting ridiculously long. I have to say I strongly strongly disagree with applying this thread in it's current form. The proposals in this thread are too complex to handle this many at once, I don't want to apply sweeping upgrades on such a basis across the entire verse without fully discussing them. At the very longest we should only be doing a single cosmology at a time, and since most of this pertains to 1-A, High 1-A, and Tier 0 I have to think it'll need to go in the queue.

I'll have to agree with this. I feel like it would've been better to tackle the cosmology separately instead of rushing to do both together. The cosmology is split, and they should be evaluated on their own so the focus can be 100% on said individual cosmology. Instead, it's going to bounce between both of them, and make the discussion longer than it would've been if it was separate.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'll have to agree with this. I feel like it would've been better to tackle the cosmology separately instead of rushing to do both together. The cosmology is split, and they should be evaluated on their own so the focus can be 100% on said individual cosmology. Instead, it's going to bounce between both of them, and make the discussion longer than it would've been if it was separate.

I don't understand what's so difficult. Just focus on one portion of the thread then it's obviously your choice if you want to evaluate both. Since this thread has already been made, there's legitimately no point making seperate CRT, it is what it is. Especially, since this topic isn't a new thing and was created under the new tiering system with all the basis of the previous thread being taken into account.

 

[Asterotheology]

I don't understand what's so difficult. Just focus on one portion of the thread then it's obviously your choice if you want to evaluate both. Since this thread has already been made, there's legitimately no point making desperate CRT, it is what it is. Especially, since this topic isn't a new thing and was created under the new tiering system with all the basis of the previous thread being taken into account.

You're free to do what you want but I still think it would've been better to make separate threads. It is what it is, as you said.

 

[LazyMortician]

I don't understand what's so difficult. Just focus on one portion of the thread then it's obviously your choice if you want to evaluate both. Since this thread has already been made, there's legitimately no point making desperate CRT, it is what it is. Especially, since this topic isn't a new thing and was created under the new tiering system with all the basis of the previous thread being taken into account.

I agree with Deagon and Asterotheology on this. While even a CRT with a single purpose can deviate from its purpose, a CRT made for two different cosmologies will inevitably cause confusion. You should have evaluated them on their particular CRT.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree with Deagon and Asterotheology on this. While even a CRT with a single purpose can deviate from its purpose, a CRT made for two different cosmologies will inevitably cause confusion. You should have evaluated them on their particular CRT.

So I assume if people read the thread and are knowledgeable on the Cosmology. I make it very clear where each Cosmology is being tiered and in the first few sentences remarked that it will go over the remaining two Cosmology: J.M. DeMatteis and Vertigo.

If it causes confusion then that technically wouldn't be on me. I made the notion that this tackles two of them and I made the formatting clear where each one is being handled. If there's confusion, then clearly, they didn't read the opening statement.

Anyway, this is going away from the topic. I appreciate the feedback, but if we won't review the actual topic then please don't say anything, it's just going to derail the thread. Given that some people above decided to evaluate it either way, shows that this isn't a holistic problem. It's very intentional why I did both Cosmologies, so if it's too confusing then please don't contribute.

 

[Elizio33]

Hi, since the the tiering system has been changed not too long ago. I decided to overlook the DC Cosmology blog page and wanted to revise the tiering and explanation on the blog. @Elizio33 is handling the Crisis Cosmology section of the blog. So I decided to handle J.M. DeMatteis and Vertigo since I previously did so in the old system but decided to reformat it to make it easier.

Cosmology Blog:​

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

J.M. DeMatteis:​

The Material Realms:​

The first portion that needs to be changed is the tiering for every category.

So the material plane is accepted as this:

Now, obviously, there's some fixing that needs to be done. J.M. DeMatteis fixates on the idea that Creation is nothing but a Dream dreamt by God. There are dreams within dreams on every level of existence and this notion is infinitely repeating.

Which the notion of something being a dream of something else is accepted to be 1-A under this revision with supporting context:

So with that being said we can concur a new explanation and a new rating. So for the material plane:

The Metaphysical Realms:​

The metaphysical realms transcend the whole of the material plane. As some analogy puts the concept in these higher planes transcends that of the lower ones. Due to them being inaccessible by the Gross body and the Soul needed to move into the next stage of existence would warrant a transcendence tier that's meta in nature.

Before:

Miscellaneous:​

Now, in the story Green Lantern: Willworld. There's a concept that was reintroduced from the Doctor Fate series called the “Ocean of Dreams.”
Essentially, this is a metaphysical plane nearest to God where the Soul turns into pure energy only looking toward God’s love. Their unconscious but like everything else are dreaming of the entire Cosmology below such as the material plane and their own conventional Heaven.

After:

Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma:​

Pralaya's previous description was this:

Obviously, this has to change and here is the fix:

The Divine Presence/The Smile/God:​

This was the previous description of God:

This will be changed to this:

Vertigo:​

This one is interesting because I'm not only changing the tiering but also removing some untrue notions.

The Presence’s Creation:​

The current explanation is this:

So, obviously, we can keep the Endless as part of the Presence’s Creation. Since the Dreaming is described as more “real than real”, which is accepted as 1-A as long as there's no real anti-feat. More importantly, the Dreaming scales to the City of Stars which is treated as “real above real.” In Sandman #2 it was explained Dream of the Endless and the Dreaming are one and with enough given dreams the whole of Creation changes. Thus all realms scale to the City of Stars which is a good candidate for 1-A.

So we can change it to this:

Heaven, Silver City, and Hell:​

Before:

After:

The Endless:​

Before:

After:

The Basanos:​

Before:

After:

The Council of the First Circle:​

Before:

After:

Mother Night and Father Time:​

Before:

After:

Mansions of Silence:​

Before:

After:

The Presence and the Archangels:​

Before:


After:

The Void:​

Before:

After:

Removal:​

True extent of the Endless:​

This was what was proposed in the section for the Endless and their apparent “true extent:”


There’s some problem with these absurd claims. The Endless is just the side-effect of the approach of creation-making. It has never been stated that the Endless exists outside the main Creation. This is evidently made clear because Night and Time permeate all versions of the same Creation, not all Creations.

Death appearing in Lucifer's Creation isn't due to her having influence there. She literally said she wanted to see what would happen and was dying to talk to Lucifer. This also is clear since the Basanos’s vision was impaired due to the Book of Souls from Destiny being a foreign object here and only native to the main Creation.

Also, if you didn't know all those Dreams we saw are within one Creation. There are just multiplicity viewpoints of the same concept in different reiterations of Creation, and not separate Creations.

So what can we do? This:

• Remove the true extent from the Endless except for Dream(I’ll explain later) and remove the idea Night and Time permeates all Creations in the Void as opposed to just all versions of the same Creation.

Addition:​

Jin En Mok species for the Cosmology blog. Also, change Cestis rating from Low 1-C, possibly 1-C to just 1-A.

Dream should have two keys: Point of View | True Dream. As the story have explained Morpehus and by an extent Daniel Hall are just small fragments of a bigger whole. They are just one small aspect of a bigger, truer concept.

Yggdrasil is a realm that connects all worlds and realms. Its destruction would affect all things.

Miscellaneous:​

All of Creation is mapped by the Tree of Life and its sefirot. The weirdness of this comes with the fact that there's apparently a Monad, and Keter is described as an “unknowable, irreducible, all-encompassing” and “boundless apogee.” Very descriptive things for 0 ratings. Not to mention the mention of Monad. Plus, the Tree of Life could give a sense of 1-A rating scaling of five or more layers of 1-A. However, that's for you guys to decide.

I'll wait for further inputs, but I think we should handle one cosmology per thread to avoid any confusion. Regardless, i'm neutral for now. I'm also skeptical about this more real than real Vertigo stuff but I'll wait.

 

[Eseseso]

Does High 1-A Pralaya affect Peak Zatanna

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Does High 1-A Pralaya affect Peak Zatanna

No.