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DC Comics Metaverse (Doomsday Clock #10 Spoilers Discussion)

Catalyst75

Catalyst75

The longest serving member
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Well, this is certainly an interesting development when it comes to not just the DC Cosmology (alongside what Snyder is doing in the current Justice League storyline), but also for Doctor Manhattan, potentially.
 
Betting if Dr.M statement of 'Metaverse' can be taken at face value. Then this would place him at anywhere from 1-C to High 1-B by my guess!
 
It makes sense in so many ways, as well. How the entire Multiverse seemed to change Post-Flashpoint (see: Earth-Two), for instance. If Manhattan only targeted the timeline of one Universe in the DC Multiverse, the rest shouldn't have been greatly affected, but Earth-Two became a completely separate entity from its original counterpart.

Setting up Earth-Prime as a "Metaverse" separate from the rest of the Multiverse, and how the Multiverse reacts to changes in the Metaverse rather than the other way around, extends to potentially every layer of the DC Cosmology. The nature of the Dark Multiverse alone is proof enough of that, I reckon.
 
But it seems like he changed the metaverse by travelling through time rather than warping reality. And also it would actually downgrade Manhattan rather than upgrade.
 
Looking at his profile, Manhattan's current rating is entirely based on the Mxyzptlk statements. So this issue wouldn't upgrade or downgrade him.
 
When Mxy says that he was not scared at all. The only thing Manhattan was able to do Mxy was trap him for some time until he got angry enough to escape. Manhattan has no feats to suggest he is really higher.
 
The profile uses Superman's inner thoughts as well. Regardless, I wasn't one of the ones who upgraded Manhattan and I don't care enough to argue about it. I was just making a point about his profile's current justification.
 
Plus, Prime Earth is treated as Earth 0. Changing it even slightly creates branches in the entire Multiverse. Creating and changing timelines and reality. That was the whole point of Issue 10. It is not Manhattan feat but the very nature of the universe. It also has some kind of sentience like overmonitor. That's why it is referred as Metaverse. Even after he changes it the metaverse effectively dismantles his new 52 and creates Rebirth. Now it is backfiring against Manhattan.
 
Well, one question the Metaverse concept raises for me is this: since changes to the Multiverse ripple outward from the Metaverse, who in continuity is able to observe/remember these changes?
 
@immortalgodd,

He still has the feat of stopping the destruction of the flashpoint universe. Plus it seems he might be able to destroy the multiverse if we go by his statements. I sorta wonder if Mxy breaking out was due to the metaverse being involved? Also, what does this mean for the Earth prime universe since it appears to be somewhat sentient?
 
Shen Saiya said:
@Catalyst75
who in continuity is able to observe/remember these changes?

Simple answer...

The Writer!
Click to expand...
True (if they're still considered a canonical character) but there's also the question of whether or not higher-dimensional beings themselves are aware of the exact changes Dr. Manhattan made (such as the Monitor Brothers, Mxyzptlk and the New Gods). It'd certainly change some things if, even with all of them not being affected by and recalling every Crises, they themselves could be affected by changes in the Metaverse (such as their memories of past events).
 
Metaverse itself is a single universe. The changes are brought through retcons made in the prime earth which ripples through entirety of the multiverse. Dr. Manhattan was only able to notice these changes because he could observe different points of time simultaneously. The monitor are canonically above the multiverse. Plus, flashpoint was erased after Barry went back. Manhattan just took the opportunity provided by the thin walls of reality and the nature of Prime Earth. Doesn't Manhattan show that if you could affect the Metaverse you affect the entof the multiverse. The metaverse itself is a singular universe nothing more.
 
Anyway, the changes to the main DC universe are still only Low 2-C in nature by themselves. They are just causing a chain reaction effect on the rest of the structure.
 
The entire context of the issue was that One man, or metahuman, impacts all others, just as one universe, or metaverse, does the same. If Superman has such influence on one world, and that world has influence on all others, then Superman is indirectly responsible for shaping the multiverse. The previous retcons were xplained by him as the meddling of Anti-Monitor, Darkseid etc
 
No, I think its because of the Multiverse. Prime Earth seems to be a draft or something for DC. Superman in Prime Earth represents the first superhero creation for DC and as a result is a metaphysical existence inside Prime Earth.
 
Since this Metaverse is specifically outside the DC Multiverse, wouldn't his feats of manipulating it as casually be a higher tier feat?
 
It is likely a play on the term metafiction, due to all of the retcons.

Anyway, it is still likely just a universe with chain reaction effects.
 
Yes, I think the "metaverse" term is just a cool, comic-y way of saying that the main Earth has always been the keystone/center of the DC multiverse and is where the multiverse-reshaping events are always focused on. We've known that for decades, it's not really anything new.
 
Yes. Agreed. Should we close this thread?
 
Well it's not a CRT or anything, just discussion. Plus it's not my thread so it's not up to me, but I see no harm in leaving it open.
 
Okay. I will unsubscribe from it though.
 
TysonHurricane said:
Since this Metaverse is specifically outside the DC Multiverse, wouldn't his feats of manipulating it as casually be a higher tier feat?
Click to expand...
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.
 
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.
https://ibb.co/zJ1bPH

Don't pull it out of context. If you read the next panel he says the multiverse reacts to this universe rather than the other way around. Then he calls it Metaverse. I mean how is it hard to understand. He basically says why he thinks it is not a part of the multiverse. Not because of where it exists but because how it changes the multiverse.
 
Immortalgodd said:
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.
Click to expand...
https://ibb.co/zJ1bPH Don't pull it out of context. If you read the next panel he says the multiverse reacts to this universe rather than the other way around. Then he calls it Metaverse. I mean how is it hard to understand. He basically says why he thinks it is not a part of the multiverse. Not because of where it exists but because how it changes the multiverse.
The next panel also has Manhattan state that the Metaverse specifically stands apart from the rest of the universes that react to it, be they part of the Multiverse or the Dark Multiverse. That is partly because, unlike all the rest of the universes created inside the World Forge, the Metaverse - the Prime Universe - was the first to exist, the one first created by Perpetua's own hand. Every other Universe in the Orrery was created from the hopes and fears of living beings in the Prime Universe; all the worlds in the Dark Multiverse are the same.
 
Well, at least DC is developing there multiverse and doing something different from marvel? No telling where this leads if the whole concept isn't dropped after doomsday clock
 
Immortalgodd said:
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.
Click to expand...
https://ibb.co/zJ1bPH Don't pull it out of context. If you read the next panel he says the multiverse reacts to this universe rather than the other way around. Then he calls it Metaverse. I mean how is it hard to understand. He basically says why he thinks it is not a part of the multiverse. Not because of where it exists but because how it changes the multiverse.
One universe having a ripple effect on the Multiverse isn't a new concept though, Earth-33 ( Earth-Prime, not to be confused with Prime-Earth) had the same effect with the DC writers influcing the Multiverse with comics they write, but it was never described as a Metaverse and its definately not the same universe Dr Manhattan is in because the Earth-33 Universe lacks any real superheroes. So I figured when Manhattan said it was seperate, he meant it.
 
Darkmon cns said:
Well, at least DC is developing there multiverse and doing something different from marvel? No telling where this leads if the whole concept isn't dropped after doomsday clock
Click to expand...
It was distinctly different the moment Grant Morrison drew up the Multiverse map and cemented the nature of the New Gods with "Final Crisis".

"Dark Nights: Metal" expanded upon it further by introducing the Dark Multiverse and the World Forge, a place where new worlds are forged from living beings' hopes and fears.

Finally, "Doomsday Clock" has established Earth-Prime as the Metaverse. Changes that happen there ripple outward to affect the rest of the Multiverse; the first worlds to arise from the Dark Multiverse into the Orrery of Worlds were forged from the hopes and fears of living beings from the Metaverse.

While the DC Cosmology does use String Theory (Branes) and Bubble Universes to describe its cosmology, its core is based around the concept of "stories", "ideas", "imagination". On the other hand, Marvel firmly functions as a Quantum Universe.
 
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.https://ibb.co/zJ1bPH Don't pull it out of context. If you read the next panel he says the multiverse reacts to this universe rather than the other way around. Then he calls it Metaverse. I mean how is it hard to understand. He basically says why he thinks it is not a part of the multiverse. Not because of where it exists but because how it changes the multiverse.
One universe having a ripple effect on the Multiverse isn't a new concept though, Earth-33 ( Earth-Prime, not to be confused with Prime-Earth) had the same effect with the DC writers influcing the Multiverse with comics they write, but it was never described as a Metaverse and its definately not the same universe Dr Manhattan is in because the Earth-33 Universe lacks any real superheroes. So I figured when Manhattan said it was seperate, he meant it.

Aren't Earth 33 and Prime Earth similar because of them existing as cetre of the multiverse?
 
Catalyst75 It stands apart because of its nature. It is a universe that is in constant flux of change.
 
Immortalgodd said:
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.
Click to expand...
https://ibb.co/zJ1bPHDon't pull it out of context. If you read the next panel he says the multiverse reacts to this universe rather than the other way around. Then he calls it Metaverse. I mean how is it hard to understand. He basically says why he thinks it is not a part of the multiverse. Not because of where it exists but because how it changes the multiverse.One universe having a ripple effect on the Multiverse isn't a new concept though, Earth-33 ( Earth-Prime, not to be confused with Prime-Earth) had the same effect with the DC writers influcing the Multiverse with comics they write, but it was never described as a Metaverse and its definately not the same universe Dr Manhattan is in because the Earth-33 Universe lacks any real superheroes. So I figured when Manhattan said it was seperate, he meant it. Aren't Earth 33 and Prime Earth similar because of them existing as cetre of the multiverse?
Functionally, I'd say no, until otherwise stated in canon. Earth-33 is stated to be "our Earth", but Earth-Prime (its original form) always had Superboy-Prime as part of it, and the new Earth-33 has Ultraman of Ultra Comics and Superboy-Prime.

In all likelihood, any changes made to the Metaverse and the Multiverse as a whole just get reflected on Earth-33 as changes to their "fictional comic book stories". All the way back in Pre-Crisis era, this was said to be the case of Earth-Prime - writers are subconsciously influenced by the adventures of superheroes in Earth-One and Earth-Two (or influenced by the Metaverse, to be more specific).
 
Catalyst75 said:
Immortalgodd said:
Um. Its just a single universe inside the DC Multiverse.
Click to expand...
https://ibb.co/zJ1bPH
Click to expand...
Don't pull it out of context. If you read the next panel he says the multiverse reacts to this universe rather than the other way around. Then he calls it Metaverse. I mean how is it hard to understand. He basically says why he thinks it is not a part of the multiverse. Not because of where it exists but because how it changes the multiverse.
One universe having a ripple effect on the Multiverse isn't a new concept though, Earth-33 ( Earth-Prime, not to be confused with Prime-Earth) had the same effect with the DC writers influcing the Multiverse with comics they write, but it was never described as a Metaverse and its definately not the same universe Dr Manhattan is in because the Earth-33 Universe lacks any real superheroes. So I figured when Manhattan said it was seperate, he meant it.Aren't Earth 33 and Prime Earth similar because of them existing as cetre of the multiverse?Functionally, I'd say no, until otherwise stated in canon. Earth-33 is stated to be "our Earth", but Earth-Prime (its original form) always had Superboy-Prime as part of it, and the new Earth-33 has Ultraman of Ultra Comics and Superboy-Prime.
In all likelihood, any changes made to the Metaverse and the Multiverse as a whole just get reflected on Earth-33 as changes to their "fictional comic book stories". All the way back in Pre-Crisis era, this was said to be the case of Earth-Prime - writers are subconsciously influenced by the adventures of superheroes in Earth-One and Earth-Two (or influenced by the Metaverse, to be more specific).

True, but they themselves also influence the DC Universe. When Cary Bates (writer for the Flash) met the Flash, he somewhat knew what events would happen because he thought of the story himself before it happened in the their universe, but brain fog prevented him from remembering it entirely until the story was over.
 
It occurred to me that Doctor Manhattan being able to change the past in the DC Universe echoes what he did in "Before Watchmen". According to that story, Doctor Manhattan could make changes to the past as a quantum observer which resulted in alternate Universes, and Doctor Manhattan destroying those alternate Universes.

The difference between Manhattan's Universe and DC Comics is that the Metaverse means not just the Metaverse's timeline is changed when the past is changed, but the histories of other worlds in the Multiverse are altered as well.

If we were to consider how that would influence Doctor Manhattan's future tiering, or abilities, post-Doomsday Clock, what would the end result be?
 
With his current rating, he would have to show some form of hyperdimensional influence to go up.
 
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