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DBS Tier 2 Scaling Chain [besides Infinite Zamasu]

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In general what Omega said is essentially the thread:

  • The GoD Feat is treated as baseline that any 2 GoD level Entities can perform together
  • UIO / Heavily Restricted Jiren both were stated to be at that level, as well as GoD Toppo and other comparative entities, meaning God of Destruction Tier varies massively in DBS unlike the manga.
  • If someone is 2x UIO Goku they'd possibly be 2-C... And this is a hard maybe, at best the Low 2-C chain of borderline 2-C "Low 2-Cs" starts at UIO 1 Goku rather than Beerus Level
  • Then the thread turned into maybe Post-UIO SSBKK Goku, SSJ1 Kefla, and the Spirit Bomb getting Low 2-C for being the catalyst that allows Goku to reach UIO 1st, and then mentioning of Broly Saga Goku reaching Low 2-C in lower forms than SSB.
 
That's not a baseline GoD requirement, it's a peak for a GoD as far as we know at this point. And while it's obviously not necessary for all GoDs to be equal in power, those who are GoD tier shouldn't be far behind that and it doesn't change their tiers when they are above IZ.
 
Also, what Whis said about Jiren (against UIO1) was mainly referring to how much he was holding back and that perhaps he is the one who has reached/surpassed GoD level at his full power.
 
Super suppressed Jiren being GoD level is wank. We went through this, ep 110 Jiren can't be above all GoDs and Whiss really has no way of knowing the full extent of his power.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
I mean you can argue the intention , but when the literal exclusives for the trailer were describing Goku as being 'way beyond Vegeta' and 'Vegeta trying to catch up' that seems to imply their intention very directly in that Movie.
The sparring happened prior to the broly Movie so I really, really doubt we can use it since we don't exactly know what happens between the end of the Anime and the Tournament of Power. Even during Sparing both can be holding back so we don't have any conclusive evidence based on sparring matches, unless you believe Krillin sparing with Gohan in the Pre-Tournament Training makes them comparable and you can 'look' like your using Full Power in DB and still severely holding back.

I'll talk about the 'being tired' and fusion thing later.... Where it is now it's later and I'm tired.
Click to expand...
Ok when you are fresh then we can talk about this

Not to say that both Goku and Vegeta were relaxed implying either both were equal or both were sparring of and Krillin won due to techniques so thats not comparable
 
SSJ Goku being >= SSG makes Goku 50-100x stronger than Vegeta at best, and it would put his base on the level of SSJ Vegeta and SSG Goku on Blue Vegeta's level. In the tournament SSG Goku was able to handle threats like Kale, meaning that the power boost he got from MUI made him 50-100x stronger. This isn't the first time we had such a strength gap, as a matter of fact we had an even larger gap. In the Manga SSJ Goku Black was overpowering SSB Vegeta! It's not like Goku's that much higher, the only thing that would change is SSG Goku being tier 2.
 
I still don't buy this"Goku>>>>Vegeta" at all. We saw them spare with each other and they put equal efforts as SSB against Broly. Not to mention that Goku was willing to take on Broly with Vegeta's help when he just admitted that Broly is too much for him alone.
 
None of that means Goku can't be vastly superior to Vegeta. Goku has been seen to hold back in spars, and equal effort doesn't mean equal power. And obviously Goku would get Vegeta's help, he's the second strongest Z-Fighter and he was right there, that doesn't mean Vegeta is on par with him.
 
> Sparing

3-A Krillin when???

>equal effort

How on earth do two people fighting one opponent make them equal? If that was a thing then Android 18 would be 3-A. Besides Vegeta Was just as beat up as Goku but in a way shorter time. Goku was already beaten up by ikari Broly and he still lasted longer than Vegeta.

We're quite literally denying evidence because it 'feels weird'. If we ignore the evidence given to us then we have to ignore all the power boost Goku got because of UI.
 
I don't see why the idea of Goku being vastly stronger than Vegeta is so incredulous when stuff like this has happened before. Namely in the Goku Black Saga. SSR Black was superior to Goku and Vegeta Blue, but then Vegeta trains in the RoSaT and bodies Black. Goku broke his limits four different times in the ToP, he has ample reason to be way above Vegeta.
 
>3-A Krillin when???

Moot point. Might as well given Roshi 3-A cuz he actually made base Goku go serious. Goku trains with Vegeat because he's his equal and sparing with him will make Goku stronger. If what you are saying is true he WOULD have sparred with Krillin, because apparently all that Goku want is to d!ck around and he doesn't take his training seriously at all according to your logic.

>l? If that was a thing then Android 18 would be 3-A

Funny you said that cuz we did give #18 3-A rating because she beat Ribrianne who fought SSJ Vegeta and base Goku on several times through the ToP, but then we downgrade both because it felt "wrong"

> Besides Vegeta Was just as beat up as Goku but in a way shorter time. Goku was already beaten up by ikari Broly and he still lasted longer than Vegeta.

Using clothes damage as your argument? Really? Goku was already topless, what do you want more to prove to you that he took a beating? Leave him in boxer? Frieza took a beating for a whole hour and barely look hurt.


>We're quite literally denying evidence because it 'feels weird'

PIS exist for a reason.

>If we ignore the evidence given to us then we have to ignore all the power boost Goku got because of UI.

It's unknown how much boost UI gives Goku. And it doesn't really matter since narrative-wise Vegeta is supposed to around be Goku's level. Goku went UI twice before they fought Jiren but both seemed more or less equal when they fought Jiren.

>I don't see why the idea of Goku being vastly stronger than Vegeta is so incredulous

Because it's stupid.

>namely in the Goku Black Saga. SSR Black was superior to Goku and Vegeta Blue, but then Vegeta trains in the RoSaT and bodies Black.

This is nothing like base Goku being stronger than SSG Goku.

>he's the second strongest Z-Fighter and he was right there, that doesn't mean Vegeta is on par with him.

You are messing the point here. If Goku was fodder to Broly, and Vegeta was fodder to Goku, then why would Goku think it would make any differnce? They already roled out Piccolo because "he's too weak"
 
"Because it's stupid."

> Maybe. That doesn't make it false.

"This is nothing like base Goku being stronger than SSG Goku."

> Goku Black Saga: Vegeta gets a power boost that makes him so much stronger that he'd be able to stomp Goku if they were to fight for real. Broly Saga: Goku got a power boost that makes him so much stronger than he'd be able to stomp Vegeta if they were to fight for real. Sounds pretty similar to me.

"You are messing the point here. If Goku was fodder to Broly, and Vegeta was fodder to Goku, then why would Goku think it would make any differnce? They already roled out Piccolo because "he's too weak""

> Goku didn't think it would make any difference. Vegeta came in to help Goku on his own volition. Piccolo ruled himself out. Goku didn't have a say in either of those.
 
> Moot point. Might as well given Roshi 3-A cuz he actually made base Goku go serious. Goku trains with Vegeat because he's his equal and sparing with him will make Goku stronger. If what you are saying is true he WOULD have sparred with Krillin, because apparently all that Goku want is to d!ck around and he doesn't take his training seriously at all according to your logic.

What? Goku would spar with anyone of the Z Fighters, when you're sparing with someone, you don't always go all out.

> Funny you said that cuz we did give #18 3-A rating because she beat Ribrianne who fought SSJ Vegeta and base Goku on several times through the ToP, but then we downgrade both because it felt "wrong"

You didn't refute anything here. People fighting in a synchronized fashion doesn't make them equal, that doesn't make any sense because it's literally just teamwork.

> Using clothes damage as your argument? Really? Goku was already topless, what do you want more to prove to you that he took a beating? Leave him in boxer? Frieza took a beating for a whole hour and barely look hurt.

Frieza is irrelevant atm. His clothes weren't the only thing though, he was clearly scared up and wounded in that short span. Btw ripped clothing does symbolize that a character was badly beaten up in DB, and Vegeta's armor literally got vaporized, something that only happened twice IIRC.

> PIS exist for a reason.

Fighting isn't plot.

> It's unknown how much boost UI gives Goku. And it doesn't really matter since narrative-wise Vegeta is supposed to around be Goku's level. Goku went UI twice before they fought Jiren but both seemed more or less equal when they fought Jiren.

Unknown? Kale was SSB level pre UIO1 and post UIO1 SSG Goku shat on her, that's bare minimum an SSJ level increase in power. And Vegeta was superior to Goku for a majority of the Tournament until UIO appeared. Vegeta had training in the time chamber and he even had a Zenkai after his first fight with Jiren and even proceeded to break his limits with SSBE.

> Because it's stupid.

Appeal to emotion. You wanna know What's stupid? Kefla, SSB Goku, and Vegeta supassing UIO but that's still legit.

> This is nothing like base Goku being stronger than SSG Goku.

I already told you that SSJ Goku Black was stronger than SSB Vegeta in the manga so how come now everyone looses their shit? This is Dragon Ball, base characters were SSJ level before it's nothing new.

> You are messing the point here. If Goku was fodder to Broly, and Vegeta was fodder to Goku, then why would Goku think it would make any differnce? They already roled out Piccolo because "he's too weak"

I'm sorry but what kind of question is this? Goku and co don't just give up, even if it's a strong opponent they still try. They did it with Jiren over and over, Majin Buu, Infinite Zamasu, etc.

The light Novel has Goku > Vegeta. The end of the Tournament had base Goku compete with a weakened Jiren. UI always gives you a power boost. WOG, etc. Frieza's statement of SSJ Broly being the strongest he's ever faced also supports this because he's 50x stronger than blue Goku and UI has a higher multiplier than that, proving how much stronger Goku's gotten.

If you get the numbers right it'll only make Base Goku ssj Vegeta level. This is even supported by the fact Goku started in his base even though he's the one that pointed out Base Broly is SSJ Vegeta level.
 
I completely disagree to Goku>>>>>>Vegeta

Yes if in sparring means everyone holding back then so was Vegeta holding back because it was a spar by this logic and do you have evidence that Goku was holding back in spar while Vegeta wasn't? Is there proof of this outside of assumptions?

Thats in the manga and even then Vegeta was able to overcome that gap soon enough same with Black Goku base being equal to SSB Vegeta it was soon overcomed by Vegeta

Yes and?What is the proof that Goku has grown weaker due to getting beaten up by Broly? Goku got beaten up by Frieza more than Broly and his ki wasn't lower till he used kaioken times 20,He got more beaten up by Jiren then Broly and his ki wasn't low so no this is only assuming that Goku got weaker

Weakened Jiren after getting even more tired was base Goku and Frieza level and before you say 17 is SSB level,17 hardly did anything in the fight at all or unless Final form Frieza is suddenly SSB level which is wrong

Whats wrong is that nowhere in the promo,guides or in the movie was it stated that Goku has grown this much stronger than Vegeta and even if it was stated in the novel I have yet to find someone sending the translated one

And UI boost aren't that much to make SSJ Goku>SSG Vegeta this is way too much wrong

Plus there was no evidence of base Goku growing stronger after recovering from UI at all as we already know that zenkai boost is hardly relevent anymore

I am sorry I just dont see SSJ Goku>>>SSG Vegeta at all
 
Anyways, Goku's current superiority to Vegeta is a bit of a derailment, @Zamasu Have any staff responded to your blog yet?
 
And literally the only argument I have heard that Goku is stronger is because uh he traded blows with Ikari Broly,Holding back in a spar,Got tired because of beatings from Ikari Broly and none of these are solid argument at all and I have countered it above

Only solid argument is the novelization but nobody has yet shown to a translated one so I dont see why anyone will claim SSJ Goku=Intial Ikari Broly then

And Goku is close to god doesn't mean SSJ Goku>SSG Vegeta in any context and Vegeta desperate catching up doesn't mean the gap is that huge and it came out before the movie and movie doesn't support this claim at all
 
Goku and Vegeta were portrayed as equals against SSJ Broly. Vegeta isn't trying to catch up, he was training to eventually kill a more powerful version of Freeza.

"Goku is close to become a god"

This is vague. Goku has godly ki, which already puts him in the "rivaling gods" area. Jiren was never portrayed as a god despite how powerful he was. It can't be about godly ki because Goku has that since BoG. It can't be about power level because being stronger than a god doesn't make you a god, and Goku literally refuses to become one in his first apparition. This sentence doesn't even make sense to me, it doesn't match the movie.

From my perspective, they're still equals.
 
In regards to Broly vs Goku and Vegeta, why is that fight used to prove the rivals to be equals? That'd be the same line as logic as saying Goku and Krillin being equal if fighting someone.

Also, before someone mentions the two performing equally against Broly, it's hard for one to look stronger than the other when both are ants compared to Broly, it's like a tank and a smg (I like comparisons) trying to damage a moon.
 
Also, before someone mentions the two performing equally against Broly, it's hard for one to look stronger than the other when both are ants compared to Broly, it's like a tank and a smg (I like comparisons) trying to damage a moon.

Exactly. Broly easily overpowered and defeated them. If the gap was so huge to the point of SSJ > SSJG, Vegeta would've been dead after receiving the first attack.
 
? My point was that you can't assume Goku and Vegeta are either equal or unequal based on their teams up when the sheer power gap between the two and Broly, makes it impossible to judge (basically just trying to disqualify the two vs Broly as evidence)

Also, DB is pretty inconsistent with one shots, so I'm not sure that's the best evidence, when Krillin wasn't one shot by Cell
 
I think he did. The main issue with DB scaling is that we never know how much power the characters are actually using. Base Goku was equal to Ribrianne, and then for no reason Goku had to use SSJB just to kick her.
 
Tyranno223 said:
? My point was that you can't assume Goku and Vegeta are either equal or unequal based on their teams up when the sheer power gap between the two and Broly, makes it impossible to judge (basically just trying to disqualify the two vs Broly as evidence)

Also, DB is pretty inconsistent with one shots, so I'm not sure that's the best evidence, when Krillin wasn't one shot by Cell
Click to expand...
1. Goku received damage from Broly

2. Vegeta received damage from Broly

3. Both ended up in the same condition and both landed the same attacks against Broly

Now simply imagine the gap between a SSJ and a SSJG. The gap between a SSJG and SSJB is already enormous. When I said one shot, I wasn't actually referring to Broly defeating Vegeta in one attack, just putting into perspective the difference between them. It's impossible to be that stronger and perform the same feat.

I'm going to sleep now. We can continue this later.
 
its obvious that they are equal. there is no ifs or buts about it. and i dont even think goku fighting broly in various forms was inconscistent either, as he wasnt doing anything impressive powerwise, except for showing his superior skills in the battle.
 
If the gap was so huge then SSB Vegeta just wouldn't be able to keep up with SSB Goku and SSJ Broly
 
Ovrhide said:
its obvious that they are equal. there is no ifs or buts about it. and i dont even think goku fighting broly in various forms was inconscistent either, as he wasnt doing anything impressive powerwise, except for showing his superior skills in the battle.
Click to expand...
Superior skill? Don't make me laugh. The first Broly fought like a gorilla against six other martial artists and they all got their asses kicked. By your logic post TOP Goku stayed as strong as Vegeta during the tournament. All that nonsense is thrown out the window because Vegeta got eliminated first while Goku continued to break his limits and get stronger.

All these opposing arguments are either, an opinion, denial, assumptions, and most definitely an appeal to tradition.
 
You haven't countered my argument there so saying its a opinion,denial,assumptions and appeal to tradition doesn't counter any argument

Vegeta got eliminated because he doesn't have UI while Goku didn't lose because of UI

He broke limits yes but in nowhere did it give boost enough for SSJ Goku>>SSG Vegeta

Only solid argument is novel thats it otherwise all of the argument is just based on assumption to
 
Kale stomped pre UIO blue Goku and post UIO Goku got a boost so big he was able to fight equally with her as an ssj2. So UI not giving Goku a power boost is actually headcanon.

> He broke limits yes but in nowhere did it give boost enough for SSJ Goku>>SSG Vegeta

You need evidence that he didn't get stronger, you can't prove a negative.

Sparing is one of the worst things you can use for scaling because it's completely arbitrary.

Goku and Vegeta fighting ssj Broly in itself is inconsistent because they're ants compared to Broly anyway. Two people fighting or running away from someone does not mean those two people are equal. Flying in Dragon Ball is also completely arbitrary because Goku and Vegeta are able to fly away from an opponent that is many many times faster than them.

Even if you wanna argue that Vegeta got a zenkai boost after Jiren beat down his base form, you gotta remember Goku went through the same thing, plus the UI boost, plus a UI rage boost, plus UI ******* up his body, plus his limit break during his very last fight.

Even Toriyama himself said Vegeta is _desperately_ trying to keep up even though he couldn't care less about UI.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1025905720556810240?lang=e

Just because they were equal for the majority of the series doesn't mean anything when they constantly, surpass each other. No body in DBS stays at the same level and Vegeta will eventually catch up, and probably even surpass Goku again. Saying that they _were_ always equal is an appeal to tradition fallacy.
 
That was actually said by Tatsuya Nagamine. I think that they're still equals because of "power control" and how the director also said stupid things about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up, when this isn't even said in the movie. He also said that Goku is close to become a god, and Goku literally refuses to become one in the movie.

DB is known for making characters look either weaker or stronger in different scenes due to "power control" and unneeded transformations.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Kale stomped pre UIO blue Goku and post UIO Goku got a boost so big he was able to fight equally with her as an ssj2. So UI not giving Goku a power boost is actually headcanon.
> He broke limits yes but in nowhere did it give boost enough for SSJ Goku>>SSG Vegeta

You need evidence that he didn't get stronger, you can't prove a negative.

Sparing is one of the worst things you can use for scaling because it's completely arbitrary.

Goku and Vegeta fighting ssj Broly in itself is inconsistent because they're ants compared to Broly anyway. Two people fighting or running away from someone does not mean those two people are equal. Flying in Dragon Ball is also completely arbitrary because Goku and Vegeta are able to fly away from an opponent that is many many times faster than them.

Even if you wanna argue that Vegeta got a zenkai boost after Jiren beat down his base form, you gotta remember Goku went through the same thing, plus the UI boost, plus a UI rage boost, plus UI ******* up his body, plus his limit break during his very last fight.

Even Toriyama himself said Vegeta is _desperately_ trying to keep up even though he couldn't care less about UI.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1025905720556810240?lang=e

Just because they were equal for the majority of the series doesn't mean anything when they constantly, surpass each other. No body in DBS stays at the same level and Vegeta will eventually catch up, and probably even surpass Goku again. Saying that they _were_ always equal is an appeal to tradition fallacy.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah you guys use that SSJG Goku post UIO stomping Kale LSSJ while SSB couldn't while I dont follow this

Nowhere did anyone state SSG Goku to be much stronger than he was before UIO thats just head canon

And where did he get stronger? All I saw was base Goku getting whooped by Ikari Broly and SSJ Goku trading blows for a while before getting overpowered nowhere does it make SSJ Goku=Ikari Broly it doesn't

And?If you think sparring was arbitrary becuase Goku was holding back then you need to give me evidence that Vegeta wasn't holding back??Nor was there any statement of Whis saying Goku is much stronger than Vegeta or something its just misinterpretation in favouring this wrong theory

And?Where is the proof that he got stronger after nearly dying from UI?And it isn't zenkai boost becuase thats hardly relevent anymore

Actually there is no evidence that Goku got stronger after UIO 2 and UIO 3 just only UIO 1 is there

Yes and?? The fact that this statement nowhere implies this huge of a gap

It doesn't matter whether SSJ Broly makes them look like ants or not what matters is how SSB Vegeta was able to keep up with SSB Goku and was able to sync with Goku attacks and if SSJ Goku>>SSG Vegeta was true then no way would SSB Vegeta even keep up with SSB Goku since SSB Goku>SSG>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ=SSB Vegeta then by your logic

And there is fusion too as Goku and Vegeta in base were able to fuse into Gogeta without statement ot mention of Goku lowering ki to match Vegeta ki like Trunks had to with Goten

Sorry but SSJ Goku>>SSG Vegeta argument is nothing but just assumptions just because SSJ Goku was trading blows for a while with Ikari Broly

I have yet to wait for novel translation of SSJ Goku=Initial Ikari Broly
 
> Oh yeah you guys use that SSJG Goku post UIO stomping Kale LSSJ while SSB couldn't while I dont follow this

You can't be serious my guy :/ If Kale was ssj2 level from the beginning then there'd be no reason for Goku to go blue and no reason for Jiren of all people, to actually interfere.

After UIO Goku stomped her and even tanked her attacks, with zero damage, as an ssg.

After UIO2 blue kk Goku went from being a complete joke to Jiren, to forcing him to use a hint of his true power.

After UI base to ssj Goku was able to keep up and even tank attacks from a weakened Jiren.

This Jiren was weakened from UI Goku then weakened even further from Golden Frieza. Although Jiren was weak, he was still able to tank attacks from Android 17 who would be ssg level at that point and time.

If Ssj Goku is able to face a Jiren on that level then it's no coincidence that ssj Goku was fighting equally with Broly. Anyway I'm done. What you said about not believing in the Kale scaling just shows you're just gonna ignore everything and use circular reasoning, which you already have, so I'm not gonna waste anymore time.

Btw the translation for the Goku vs Broly fight was deleted on the Narutoforums so someone's gonna have to translate the quote.
 
Kale was stronger than SSJ2 Goku though so Goku went into supressed SSB and still didn't get a single damage from LSSJ Kale though this could be assumptions

Dude LSSJ Kale was overpowering SSJ2 Goku so he had to go SSB but good point about Jiren but even though he didn't intefare during UIO 2 Goku vs LSSJ 2 Kefla so its strange

Yeah that was UIO 2 not UIO 1 my bad...

Severaly weakened Jiren was base Goku level as base Goku abd base Frieza were equal unless base Frieza suddenly went to SSB level and 17 didn't do much

17 hardly participated after he got severely weakened by Frieza he just overpowered a blast with base Goku and Frieza

My man SSJ Goku was above severely weakened Jiren who was base Goku and Frieza level not the one who was on par with Golden Frieza and 17 so SSJ Goku being on level of Ikari Broly doesn't make sense

I never approved of that Kale scaling anyway because thats assuming SSG Goku power got stronger after UIO 1 which there is no evidence but I didn't say anything as it will be too much of a hassle at this point

Well thats sad so lets just wait for the translation before we proceed
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Now that I think of it, it Omen 2 actually stronger than Omen 1? I forgot if there were any statements.
Click to expand...
We have that Jiren reaction to Kefla powering up and UIO 2 vs her. It could be an evidence that their stronger than UIO 1.
 
I don't think there's any statements, but Goku demonstrated better control over Omen 2 than he did Omen 1, as he was able to actually speak and all. Also Omen 2 would logically have to be superior to Omen 1, as it's still the Omen boost on a stronger Goku.

Actually, there was the statement of SSJ2 Kefla surpassing UIO1 and UIO2 Goku fighting against her until she went to full power and could have one-shot him.
 
Ok. I know for a fact Kefla was stronger than both 1 and 2 and the only way for Goku to eliminate her was to charge up a Kamehameha.
 
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