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DBS Tier 2 Scaling Chain [besides Infinite Zamasu]

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Jiren had to actually try to repel it, it was what made Goku Low 2-C in the first place, Belmod was kinda worried about it, and it should at least be comparable to Infinite Zamasu, if not superior.
 
Btw I did some calculations on the final battle in the Tournament and it only makes Goku 5x stronger than his post UIO2 self.
 
When we get to see SSB Goku being stronger than Beerus.

Just use SSBKK thats getting in the 2-C Range.

UI Goku is stronger than Beerus,Rage UI Goku>UI Goku Friendship boost>LB Jiren>UI Goku>Jiren FP>GoDs, that's why I was asking.

LIke could we get possibly 2-C while in Ultra instinct(Stronger than awakened Jiren, Jiren was already above the Gods Of Destruction before awakening his hidden power)
 
There seems to be conflicting reports on how Jiren and UIO/UI scale to Beerus and the GoDs. There's the magazine that says UI >= Beerus, but then there's this that says Jiren is the mightiest foe in DB history, which would just put him above Beerus, not just possibly above him. There's also all the statements of Jiren being stronger than anybody the Z-Fighters have ever faced, which would include Beerus, Whis stating that suppressed Jiren was on par/beyond the GoDs, etc.
 
It's been discussed before, Goku and Jiren are not getting 2-C because they are not much stronger than Beerus.
 
I disagree that they're not that much above Beerus.

Jiren was stated to be above the GoDs before he was even shown on screen and these rumors were confirmed true during the spirit bomb clash. UI Goku is above that by a decent amount and he got two boosts on top that. 2x Beerus doesn't seem too far fetched.

Also the supreme kai of Jirens universe did say that Gokus power was far beyond Jirens.
 
Most of the jiren statement are just mindless hype tbh. Broly is stated to be the mightiest foe in nearly every magazine promo, but within the movie he's just "likely" stronger than Beerus. ep 109 Jiren being above GoDs is stupid if you think about it for 2 min.

You can't just nitpick what you like and don't like just to prove a point.
 
Magazine hype is stupid and we both agreed on this earlier, but Jiren has multiple statements about him being bove the GoDs, in the ainme itself, that have later been confirmed true by Whis himself, the guy that trained Beerus and should know his power, so I don't think it's stupid at all especially since they bring it up again during the Spirit bomb clash. Also not nitpicking when there's statements and scaling that put Jiren and Goku pretty high above the GoD line that FP Jiren was already above.
 
>but Jiren has multiple statements about him being bove the GoDs

He has only one really. The one where Whiss wank Suppressed Jiren to be above GoDs level, which is nonsense of course. You could argue that Whiss was hyping Jiren's full power, but Whiss himself has no way of knowing Jiren's full extent.

Jiren's feats also aren't THAT impressive. What was his best feat before the UI thing? trashing SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta after he got serious? He got his shit pushed in the moment Goku started tapping deeper into the realm of gods.

UI is only stated to be above GoDs relam period in the promo stuff. In the show it's only said to be hard to "master" for the GoDs not impossible
 
He has two statements made by whis which is the:

"There lives a mortal even a god of destruction cnnot defeat", there might be more, but these are the two that i remember. Whis repeated this during the SB clash, so I think it's pretty evident that the power Jiren was using was GoD level or higher as Whis said that his power possibly surpasses the GoDs.

Brolys and Gogetas feats are that impressive either. They destoryed some moutains and shattered some dimension, but we know how strong they are because of the statements they've been given, which Brolys is similar to Jirens but Jiren broke hiS limits to go far beyond the GoD level where UI Goku was thrashing him.

UI Goku is above the GoDs by statements and scaling to Jiren. UI itself is just a form that ***** on everything else they've used before.
 
>There lives a mortal even a god of destruction cannot defeat"

He only said "A" God of Desturation can't defeat not all of them.

>They destoryed some moutains and shattered some dimension.

You are missing the point horribly here. Gogeta, WHILE HOLDING back stomped the hell out of Broly who was stated to stronger than Beeurs. Jiren just had a close match with someone in the relam of GoDs.

As for suppressed Jiren I have nothing to add on @Zamasu-han.
 
Except that Jiren was stated to possibly surpass the GoDs and yeah "A" GoD cannot defeat him. I'm not saying he'd solo all of them, but power wise he's above them and Gogeta was holding back, true, but it's not like he used a tenth of his power, which is why I said earlier that the gap between him and Broly isn't as big as people think.

Goku also slapped a GoD/+ tier fighter then he beat Jiren when he limit broke. You'd have to be x2 a GoD,from what I've seen here, to be 2-C because of the whole thing with Beerus and Champa and I'm saying UI Goku and Jiren at the height of their power would be close to if not x2 a GoD.
 
While I'm here, What's Gokus best speed feat? At the moment I've got base Goku falling off of Whis mid flight and catching up but it's a gag scene more than anything.
 
EucliCantEatOranges said:
While I'm here, What's Gokus best speed feat? At the moment I've got base Goku falling off of Whis mid flight and catching up but it's a gag scene more than anything.
Click to expand...
Thats not really a test of speed its more like a gag id honestly put goku flight speed at close to light speed at full power but id put his reaction time sometimes light speed and sometimes relastic plus if we do reaction time.. He's not 100 times faster than light but at full power He's close to a light speed range he mostly travels with instant transmission most of the time though.

Whis staff is MFTL

So Goku at full speed would be a little bit above lightning or around that speed but he still has potential to be struck by these things
 
"but id put his reaction time sometimes light speed and sometimes relastic plus if we do reaction time.. He's not 100 times faster than light but at full power He's close to a light speed range he mostly travels with instant transmission most of the time though.

Whis staff is MFTL

So Goku at full speed would be a little bit above lightning or around that speed but he still has potential to be struck by these things"

D3EF0F33-F55C-4F8B-890F-D808D1002C77.jpeg
 
LordTracer said:
"Like what?Jiren just used a ki blast and there goes Kale LSSJ knocked out cold its not as if Jiren was even putting any effort against Kale,Kale is SSG level at best"
> Can you prove Jiren didn't put any effort into it, especially when he only needed a single finger to block the attacks of SSG Goku yet used a legitimate attack on Kale?

"They were impressed ok and how does reaction alone tells you ablut their power when Kale was slightly inferior to SSG Goku later on anyway"

> Post-UIO SSG Goku that was stronger than he was at the beginning of the tournament. Now, why exactly would Vegeta be impressed if Kale wasn't at least somewhere around the SSB-tier?

"What pain?? SSB Goku was still similing and without a scrach from any of Kale's attack"

> Rewatch the scene. Goku's exact dialogue as he unearthed himself following Kale's rampage was; "Ow, ow," which he would not be saying if he was perfectly fine and took no damage from Kale. He was absolutely not smiling, Goku did not smile once the moment Kale started attacking him.

"SSG Goku getting stronger after UIO is something made up by people here and head canon at best and so is Kale being SSB level nowhere did she show strength at this level not even LSSJ2 Kale who was stated to be stronger showed SSB level strength"

> Would you like to explain why and show how UIO1 didn't break Goku's limits and make him stronger, yet every other time he went UIO it did?
Click to expand...
He used a blast against Hit too so does that mean he was putting some effort against Hit??No same goes for Kale ,Jiren just one shotted her doesn't show any sign of effort whatsoever Because Kale strength kept increasing?? Last time Kale fought Caulifla she was SSJ2 level And Vegeta wasn't suprised when Kale had LSSJ2 and got even stronger does that make Kale LSSJ2 weaker than LSSJ?No you cant use reactions to prove power of someone unless its backed up

He wasn't doing "ow ow" or anything while in SSB maybe its in dub but its not in sub as far as I remember and after LSSJ Kale finished her attacks SSB Goku came out of the rubbles unharmed and was similing

And where is the proof that UIO2 or UIO3 give him that much of boost that SSG Goku is above SSB Goku before UIO1??

You cant assume gap is this big unless there are statements for that
 
We have long since moved on from Kale, but alright.

"He used a blast against Hit too so does that mean he was putting some effort against Hit??No same goes for Kale ,Jiren just one shotted her doesn't show any sign of effort whatsoever Because Kale strength kept increasing?? Last time Kale fought Caulifla she was SSJ2 level And Vegeta wasn't suprised when Kale had LSSJ2 and got even stronger does that make Kale LSSJ2 weaker than LSSJ?No you cant use reactions to prove power of someone unless its backed up"

> You are missing the point of how Jiren eliminated Kale. He put more effort in than he did against Super Saiyan God tiers. If Kale wasn't Super Saiyan Blue tier, why would Jiren use anything more than a single finger, like he did against SSG Goku? What exactly makes you think LSSJ Kale was SSJ2 tier when she didn't even fight SSJ2 Caulifla?

"He wasn't doing "ow ow" or anything while in SSB maybe its in dub but its not in sub as far as I remember and after LSSJ Kale finished her attacks SSB Goku came out of the rubbles unharmed and was similing"

> His exact dialogue in the sub was literally; "Ow, ow." Rewatch the scene, Goku was not smiling.

61E44089-31D0-4942-B8C3-2DF8601383D0
"And where is the proof that UIO2 or UIO3 give him that much of boost that SSG Goku is above SSB Goku before UIO1"

> UIO2 made Goku's SSB go from 3-A to Low 2-C, a literal infinite increase, which is a far greater increase than the increase required for God to surpass Blue.

"You cant assume gap is this big unless there are statements for that"

> Or, you know, there's actual feats? Which there are.
 
LordTracer said:
We have long since moved on from Kale, but alright.
"He used a blast against Hit too so does that mean he was putting some effort against Hit??No same goes for Kale ,Jiren just one shotted her doesn't show any sign of effort whatsoever Because Kale strength kept increasing?? Last time Kale fought Caulifla she was SSJ2 level And Vegeta wasn't suprised when Kale had LSSJ2 and got even stronger does that make Kale LSSJ2 weaker than LSSJ?No you cant use reactions to prove power of someone unless its backed up"

> You are missing the point of how Jiren eliminated Kale. He put more effort in than he did against Super Saiyan God tiers. If Kale wasn't Super Saiyan Blue tier, why would Jiren use anything more than a single finger, like he did against SSG Goku? What exactly makes you think LSSJ Kale was SSJ2 tier when she didn't even fight SSJ2 Caulifla?

"He wasn't doing "ow ow" or anything while in SSB maybe its in dub but its not in sub as far as I remember and after LSSJ Kale finished her attacks SSB Goku came out of the rubbles unharmed and was similing"

> His exact dialogue in the sub was literally; "Ow, ow." Rewatch the scene, Goku was not smiling.

61E44089-31D0-4942-B8C3-2DF8601383D0
"And where is the proof that UIO2 or UIO3 give him that much of boost that SSG Goku is above SSB Goku before UIO1"

> UIO2 made Goku's SSB go from 3-A to Low 2-C, a literal infinite increase, which is a far greater increase than the increase required for God to surpass Blue.

"You cant assume gap is this big unless there are statements for that"

> Or, you know, there's actual feats? Which there are.
Click to expand...
I know sorry I just check in this wiki once two or three days

Jiren just used his attack and blasted Kale the same way he blasted Hit unless you are tell me that Hit is SSBKX20 level because Jiren used a ki blast to eliminate Hit

Remember when Kale was fighting Cabba when she first transformed into LSSJ and was trashing Cabba? Caulfila went SSJ2 and deflected Kale's attack easily

Let me rewatch the scene

Yes his SSB went from 3A to Low 2C but doesn't mean same thing with other transformation unless you mean Goku's all transformation are Low 2C now because of three boost he got?
 
"Jiren just used his attack and blasted Kale the same way he blasted Hit unless you are tell me that Hit is SSBKX20 level because Jiren used a ki blast to eliminate Hit"

> You are again missing the point. Jiren used more effort to eliminate Kale than he did against SSG Goku.

"Remember when Kale was fighting Cabba when she first transformed into LSSJ and was trashing Cabba? Caulfila went SSJ2 and deflected Kale's attack easily"

> That's Kale from Episode 93, not Kale from Episode 100, who is very clearly much stronger, a sentiment Kale herself seems to agree with as when she was in her LSSJ state in E93, she described her energy as, and I quote; "Increasing... overflowing..." Kale got stronger, the LSSJ form continuously raises her power while she's in it. And considering that Kale was previously stomping SSJ2 Goku, who was comparable to SSJ2 Caulifla, saying LSSJ Kale is SSJ2 level directly goes against what is shown.

"Yes his SSB went from 3A to Low 2C but doesn't mean same thing with other transformation unless you mean Goku's all transformation are Low 2C now because of three boost he got?"

> I never once said anything even remotely similar to all of Goku's transformations being Low 2-C... You asked what was the proof that UIO2 or UIO3 gave so much of a boost that UIO1 could make Goku's SSG form surpass his Pre-UIO1 SSB form, and I gave it. UIO2 made Goku's SSB literally infinitely stronger, which is more than the increase that would be necessary for his SSG to surpass SSB.
 
Again you are not understanding my point if you think Jiren put more effort against Kale just because he used a ki blast even though his face didn't indicate that he was putting in much more effort than by your logic Jiren also put more effort against Hit because he blasted Hit out the same way he did to Kale

I never said she was SSJ2 level I just said that she was lower than SSJ2 level in ep 93 and when Kale got LSSJ again she was at SSJ2 level and her power kept rising thats why Vegeta was suprised not because of her power its because of her increase in strength just like Vegeta was suprised when Broly power kept on improving

UIO1 made Goku SSB go from 3A to Low 2C ok but is there any proof of how much boost it gave to other transformation?? I mean is there proof or reason to assume that UIO2 made SSJ2 Goku strong enough to be on pre UIO1 SSB Goku level?
 
"Again you are not understanding my point if you think Jiren put more effort against Kale just because he used a ki blast even though his face didn't indicate that he was putting in much more effort than by your logic Jiren also put more effort against Hit because he blasted Hit out the same way he did to Kale"

> You're confusing me saying Jiren put in more effort than he did against SSG Goku with saying Jiren exerted actual effort. He clearly didn't, it took the U7 Spirit Bomb to make Jiren exert actual effort. However, he still took more effort to take Kale out than he did to block SSG Goku's attacks. Again, not saying he used legitimate effort to beat Kale, but if you compare how Jiren dealt with SSG Goku v. how he dealt with Kale, Kale required more effort.

"I never said she was SSJ2 level I just said that she was lower than SSJ2 level in ep 93 and when Kale got LSSJ again she was at SSJ2 level and her power kept rising thats why Vegeta was suprised not because of her power its because of her increase in strength just like Vegeta was suprised when Broly power kept on improving"

> SSJ2 Caulifla deflecting her attack doesn't mean Kale is lower than SSJ2 level. By that logic, Base Gogeta would be superior to SSJ Broly for slapping away several of his attacks. Kale was not SSJ2 level in Episode 100 as clearly shown by the fact that she stomped SSJ2 Goku, treated a Kamehameha from SSB Goku as if it was nothing, and harmed Goku with her Blaster Meteor. Your interpretation of why Vegeta was impressed at her power is not indicated at all by anything in the episode.

"UIO1 made Goku SSB go from 3A to Low 2C ok but is there any proof of how much boost it gave to other transformation?? I mean is there proof or reason to assume that UIO2 made SSJ2 Goku strong enough to be on pre UIO1 SSB Goku level?"

> UIO2 made Goku go from 3-A to Low 2-C, not UIO1. I don't see how you think his transformations other than Blue and Blue Kaioken are relevant to his UIO2 boost. And yes, there is proof that UIO1 can give such a boost. Both UIO2 and UIO3 broke Goku's limits and made him stronger, and UIO2 gave an even bigger boost than the one that would be required for even base Post-UIO1 Goku to become stronger than Pre-UIO1 SSB, let alone for SSG to become stronger than it.
 
He just took her out by a ki blast how does that indicates that he even put a slight effort though? Its not like Kale survived a blast or anything so how can you tell that Jiren was putting more effort in Kale than against SSG Goku because if you go by this logic Maji Kayo is above SSG level because Jiren used a punch to knock him over while Jiren was blocking SSG Goku attacks by finger but thats wrong so there is no implication Jiren put more effort when he took out Kale compared to SSG Goku,I mean Jiren even used a ki blast against UIO 1 Goku so scaling Kale to Jiren using ki blast is wonky

She easily deflected it like it was nothing and even LSSJ Kale was suprised and Base Gogeta was mostly dodging blasts than deflecting and had to go SSJ later on anyway so it proves that Base Gogeta is lower than SSJ Broly

She was at SSJ2 Level when she just transformation and powered up further which increased her level to above SSJ2 Goku and her power increase was the reason why Vegeta was shocked not because of her power.Goku even said that he is drawing in more power when he transformed into SSB implies that he was suppressed but thats a little too much assumptions from my side,He said ow ow after he transformed into base

UIO2 did sorry my bad I mixed it up.Its because its isn't implied or stated by anyone in the cast nor given any emphasis anywhere so it looks like assumptions that SSG Goku surpassed pre UIO 1 SSB Goku nothing implies he does nor did Goku power up or anything while he did in ep 123 wand statements where there which told us that both are breaking their limits and even then arguably it wasn't because of UIO2 rather it was because of Goku breaking limits like Vegeta did

I am sorry but base post UIO1 Goku never became stronger than pre UIO1 SSB there is no indication that it did
 
What the heck? We should make a new thread regarding the Spirit Bomb because that's the most important thing now. This thread's been derailed too much.
 
"He just took her out by a ki blast how does that indicates that he even put a slight effort though? Its not like Kale survived a blast or anything so how can you tell that Jiren was putting more effort in Kale than against SSG Goku because if you go by this logic Maji Kayo is above SSG level because Jiren used a punch to knock him over while Jiren was blocking SSG Goku attacks by finger but thats wrong so there is no implication Jiren put more effort when he took out Kale compared to SSG Goku,I mean Jiren even used a ki blast against UIO 1 Goku so scaling Kale to Jiren using ki blast is wonky"

> Oi, I'm not scaling Kale to Jiren and you're still missing the point. Compared to SSG Goku, Kale required more effort to eliminate. No, Jiren did not need to actually exert himself to defeat her, but he tried more against her than he did SSG Goku. Also Maji Kayo is above SSG level, he overpowered base Dypso, who was fighting on par with SSG Goku, so thanks for further proving my point.

"She easily deflected it like it was nothing and even LSSJ Kale was suprised and Base Gogeta was mostly dodging blasts than deflecting and had to go SSJ later on anyway so it proves that Base Gogeta is lower than SSJ Broly"

> Yeah, Base Gogeta was still capable of Broly's attacks. And Kale overpowered SSJ2 Goku later, which proves she's above SSJ2 Caulifla level, so again, thanks for proving my point.

"She was at SSJ2 Level when she just transformation and powered up further which increased her level to above SSJ2 Goku and her power increase was the reason why Vegeta was shocked not because of her power."

> She bodied SSJ2 Goku, she was not SSJ2 level. You're referring to Vegeta's reaction in Episode 100, I'm referring to the one in 114 with Toppo.

"Goku even said that he is drawing in more power when he transformed into SSB implies that he was suppressed but thats a little too much assumptions from my side,He said ow ow after he transformed into base"

> Considering that Kale had only attacked SSB Goku, and he was still harmed after her Blaster Meteor, that shows Kale is capable of damaging him, so for the third time, thanks for agreeing.

"UIO2 did sorry my bad I mixed it up.Its because its isn't implied or stated by anyone in the cast nor given any emphasis anywhere so it looks like assumptions that SSG Goku surpassed pre UIO 1 SSB Goku nothing implies he does"

> Except the actual feats displayed in the series show that Post-UIO1 Goku is stronger than Pre-UIO1 Goku and considering that the other two times he went UIO made him stronger, you'd have to prove that UIO1 is any different and didn't break his limits.

"nor did Goku power up or anything while he did in ep 123 wand statements where there which told us that both are breaking their limits and even then arguably it wasn't because of UIO2 rather it was because of Goku breaking limits like Vegeta did"

> Ultra Instinct literally breaks his limits...

"I am sorry but base post UIO1 Goku never became stronger than pre UIO1 SSB there is no indication that it did"

> I didn't say Post-UIO1 base Goku surpassed Pre-UIO1 SSB Goku. I said the literal infinite boost UIO2 gave Goku would be greater than the boost that would be required for base to surpass SSB. I didn't say that his base actually did surpass SSB. So allow me to ask why Goku reviving a Super Saiyan level boost from UIO1 is so incredulous when UIO2 gave him a literally infinite boost?
 
And? Jiren using ki blast still defeated Kale so how can you scale that to Jiren blocking SSG Goku attack by finger when Jiren didn't even attack SSG Goku so I dont see how you think Jiren using ki blast against Kale implies any effort when he didn't attack SSG Goku at all.He isn't above SSG Goku he didn't overpower Base Dyspo he just trapped him doesn't make Maji Kyo as SSG level

He dodged them for a while doesn't prove that he is on SSJ Broly level so this example makes no sense at all as Gogeta still had to go SSJ to be on par with SSJ Gogeta.I

I know when before Kale powered up she was SSJ2 level not after she powered up.

Kale has attacked SSB Goku and it didn't damage him at all and also implying that he was supressed nothing implies Kale is on SSB level when even a stronger Kale wasn't stronger than SSG Goku attacks

What feats? Care to explain? And no there was no statement by anyone implying boost was so big nor was there any statement implying SSG Goku got massively above pre UIO1 SSB Goku not a singoe statement or emphasis so its still just assumption at max
 
I watched ep 114 and Vegeta was suprised because she became LSSJ/BSSJ again not because of her power
 
"And? Jiren using ki blast still defeated Kale so how can you scale that to Jiren blocking SSG Goku attack by finger when Jiren didn't even attack SSG Goku so I dont see how you think Jiren using ki blast against Kale implies any effort when he didn't attack SSG Goku at all.He isn't above SSG Goku he didn't overpower Base Dyspo he just trapped him doesn't make Maji Kyo as SSG level"

> You. Still. Aren't. Understanding. I am going to say this as simple as I possibly can. Jiren did not need to exert any effort to deal with Kale. However, he tried more against her than he did SSG Goku. Do you finally understand? And yes, Maji Kayo did overpower Dypso, Dyspo was incapable of breaking out when he got trapped.

"He dodged them for a while doesn't prove that he is on SSJ Broly level so this example makes no sense at all as Gogeta still had to go SSJ to be on par with SSJ Gogeta.I"

> He still blocked Broly's attacks, and I am using your logic. You think Kale was weaker than SSJ2 Caulfila because Caulifla deflected her attack, even though Kale would later go on to body SSJ2 Goku, who equals SSJ2 Caulfila.

"I know when before Kale powered up she was SSJ2 level not after she powered up."

> Based on what evidence? Episode 100 shows her bodying SSJ2 Goku.

"Kale has attacked SSB Goku and it didn't damage him at all and also implying that he was supressed nothing implies Kale is on SSB level when even a stronger Kale wasn't stronger than SSG Goku attacks"

> Goku was in pain after her Blaster Meteor, I've already given the evidence that shows she's SSB level, you're going in a circle with this debate that you decided to continue and is entirely irrelevant to this thread.

"What feats? Care to explain? And no there was no statement by anyone implying boost was so big nor was there any statement implying SSG Goku got massively above pre UIO1 SSB Goku not a singoe statement or emphasis so its still just assumption at max"

> How many times must I repeat myself? Post-UIO1 SSG Goku overpowered SSJ2 Caulifla and LSSJ2 Kale at the same time, despite LSSJ1 Kale being shown prior to be a Super Saiyan Blue tier being. Again, would you care to explain why UIO1 didn't break Goku's limits while UIO2 and UIO3 did? It's more of an assumption to say UIO1 is any different. And does there have to be a statement when it's explicitly shown? Feats > statements, dude.
 
I will ask you this again how do you think Jiren puts more to defeat Kale then compared to SSG Goku? By what basis are you judging that Jiren tried more against Kale then against SSG when he didn't even attack SSG Goku?Maji Kyo literally got kicked by Dyspo and flew over only reason he was able to catch Dyspo was due to his nature of the body and he was not able to get out because of Maji kayo trying to cut his ears

He mostly dodged and hardly deflected some later on he went SSJ in order to fight SSJ Broly means base Gogeta is weaker than SSJ Gogeta so I dont see how this is even a example to disprove my point? SSJ2 Caulifla swatted the attack like nothing and was similing and was indicating no effort in deflecting it at all,how do you think SSJ2 Caulifla deflected a SSB level attack then by your logic?

You are not understanding my point look

In ep 93 Caulifla went SSJ2 and one shotted the attack

In ep 100 before fighting SSJ2 Goku and before powering up she was lower than SSJ2 level then AFTER keyword here AFTER she transformed did she become stronger enough to clobber SSJ2 Goku

Hardly was he was in bit pain after he transformed into base form back not in SSB and nothing implies he got hurt due to Kale's blast meteor,What proofs when a stronger Kale literally was rougky even or lower than SSG Goku,if its irrelevant why did you reply to my comment anyway?

What proof is there that UIO1 SSG Goku became stronger than pre UIO SSB Goku based on what? If it was that much of a huge boost then SSJ2 Goku should have clearly overpowered SSJ2 Caulfla as according to you he got much stronger but that wasn't the case they were still on par

I am not denying that UIO1 gave any boost what I am denying is that boosts to be this big when post UIO2 Goku vs Caulfila had no difference than pre UIO1 Goku vs Caulifla there was no Goku overpowering her SSJ2 state as a SSJ2,no statement,no emphasis,no power up no anything then why is UIO1 boost not given any emphasis while UIO2 boost did and I even argue that UIO doesn't give boost Goku and Vegeta(Who never had UIO) powered up because they broke their limits after being cornered by Jiren ,I am not even sure how this site even accepted UIO boost when there was none stating it as such
 
"I will ask you this again how do you think Jiren puts more to defeat Kale then compared to SSG Goku? By what basis are you judging that Jiren tried more against Kale then against SSG when he didn't even attack SSG Goku?Maji Kyo literally got kicked by Dyspo and flew over only reason he was able to catch Dyspo was due to his nature of the body and he was not able to get out because of Maji kayo trying to cut his ears"

> Are you even paying attention to what I'm saying? Jiren needed a single finger for SSG Goku. He needed a Power Impact for Kale. Rewatch the Maji Kayo scene right now, because you clearly aren't remembering it right. After being hit, Maji Kayo literally said; "Just kidding!" and then trapped Dypso. And while Dyspo was struggling on the ground, incapable of escaping, he said; "You were just acting?!" And no, Maji Kayo was not trying to cut off Dyspo's ears. He threatened to, he did not actually do so, yet Dyspo was still unable to break out.

"He mostly dodged and hardly deflected some later on he went SSJ in order to fight SSJ Broly means base Gogeta is weaker than SSJ Gogeta so I dont see how this is even a example to disprove my point? SSJ2 Caulifla swatted the attack like nothing and was similing and was indicating no effort in deflecting it at all,how do you think SSJ2 Caulifla deflected a SSB level attack then by your logic?"

> You're debunking your own argument. SSJ Broly had his attacks deflected by base Gogeta, but then matched SSJ Gogeta. You know what that sounds like. LSSJ Kale having her attack deflected by SSJ2 Caulifla, but then bodying SSJ2 Goku who equals SSJ2 Caulfila.

"You are not understanding my point look

In ep 93 Caulifla went SSJ2 and one shotted the attack

In ep 100 before fighting SSJ2 Goku and before powering up she was lower than SSJ2 level then AFTER keyword here AFTER she transformed did she become stronger enough to clobber SSJ2 Goku"

> Are you trying to say base Kale is below SSJ2 level or.. you mention her transforming, but this entire conversation is about LSSJ Kale, so what exactly are you on about?

"Hardly was he was in bit pain after he transformed into base form back not in SSB and nothing implies he got hurt due to Kale's blast meteor,What proofs when a stronger Kale literally was rougky even or lower than SSG Goku"

> What exactly would have caused Goku pain there other than Kale's Blaster Meteor? Do you think the rocks he was buried in caused him pain? Kale's attack was literally the only thing that could have harmed Goku. And once again, you're going in circles. You can't use SSG Goku as evidence when one of the points is that he got stronger after UIO1.

"if its irrelevant why did you reply to my comment anyway?"

> Probably the same reason you decided to continue this in the first place, despite it being previously decided Kale was entirely irrelevant to this thread.

"What proof is there that UIO1 SSG Goku became stronger than pre UIO SSB Goku based on what? If it was that much of a huge boost then SSJ2 Goku should have clearly overpowered SSJ2 Caulfla as according to you he got much stronger but that wasn't the case they were still on par"

> How many times are you going to make me repeat myself? SSB Goku got his Kamehameha no-selled by LSSJ Kale and then he got thrown away by her. Then SSG Goku overpowered a stronger Kale. And base Goku was on par with Caulfila after UIO1, so no, Post-UIO SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Caulfila were not on par.

"I am not denying that UIO1 gave any boost what I am denying is that boosts to be this big when post UIO2 Goku vs Caulfila had no difference than pre UIO1 Goku vs Caulifla there was no Goku overpowering her SSJ2 state as a SSJ2,no statement,no emphasis,no power up no anything then why is UIO1 boost not given any emphasis while UIO2 boost did and I even argue that UIO doesn't give boost Goku and Vegeta(Who never had UIO) powered up because they broke their limits after being cornered by Jiren ,I am not even sure how this site even accepted UIO boost when there was none stating it as such"

> Base Goku was on par with SSJ2 Caulfila after UIO1. BASE. GOKU. You act as if there needs to be a statement whenever a character gets stronger, even though feats > statements. And once again, Ultra. Instinct. Omen. Breaks. Goku's. Limits. Saying he got stronger by breaking his limits is basically the same damn thing. And if you think UIO boosts shouldn't be accepted solely because there's no statements (even though there's feats, which are greater than statements), then please, go make a CRT about it. Also by your logic of there needing to be a statement, I guess Goku and Vegeta didn't get any stronger from the RoF Saga to the U6 Saga because nobody stated they got stronger. I guess Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger from the end of the ToP to the Broly Arc because nobody said they got any stronger there either.
 
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