Curse Mark and Sage Mode Multiplier Removal CRT

[MinatoSparkle]

Nothing you just sent justifies a 10x amp. All you did was list that there was a strength gap.

This is unjustified and never even stated. SM multiplies your AP by 10 apparently. If something stops that from being the case, then it's not multiplied by 10.

Fair then

Read the previous arguments where I tackled this

No, it's 10x stronger than CS1

How do you know it's multiplication and not large scale addition? Random "multiplication"

I meant Pain never did it. Nagato is far stronger than Pain.

A massive strength gap.

It's the only explanation for why his Base became high six paths level.

Which previous argument?

Is that so? I'm pretty sure that's not what the statement means. But if so, that's even more proof for other cs and SM being 10x. Would Fodder Jirobo's power up from cs1 to cs2 REALLY be more than the power up from Base to SM/Sasuke's better cs2? REALLY? Do you truly believe that?

Because it made Hashirama significantly stronger, but didn't make Naruto god tier.

You know you can be 2x stronger and be in a class of your own.
Kakashi got his chakra amped by 3x and thought he was a new man.

You know that the profiles have nothing to do with the multiplier correct?
If Base Naruto was 7-A tomorrow, the gap would be even smaller.

You can tussle with people 10x stronger than you?

No, not really. Especially because Naruto wasn't even as strong as the top tiers of the village, Kakashi and Tsunade especially.

Wdym he thought he was a new man? Besides, something being a big boost from one person's perspective is one thing, but being a big boost in the eyes of the whole village is another thing entirely.

True enough.

In fiction sometimes.

That's very true which is valid, but in Naruto I haven't seen much of that.

"This one's not bad. I can't even read "Make Out Paradise" while we're fighting!" Meanwhile, in real life, you'd be able to fight someone more than 100x weaker than you while sleeping.

Let's do that.

Has anybody calculated the explosion that Naruto and Sasuke created at the Valley of the End?

I mean...they're Moon Level anyways, which is far above that calc.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Comics are the main offender of that wdym lol

That's exactly my point lol. If they think Naruto scaling is whack, then they clearly haven't read enough comics.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Let's do that.

Has anybody calculated the explosion that Naruto and Sasuke created at the Valley of the End?

yes

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

yes

Which one? The one at the end of the fight when they were in Base or Indra's Arrow vs Six Paths: Rasenshuriken?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Indra one got calced years ago, it was tier 6 I think

 

[LordTracer]

That's exactly my point lol. If they think Naruto scaling is whack, then they clearly haven't read enough comics.

Ah, nvm then lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Indra one got calced years ago, it was tier 6 I think

Link?

 

[Allmighty991]

Bump

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I still don't get how one of the most legendary power ups in the verse known for its physical strength could possibly have a smaller boost than some random Sound Four Member's just because physical power is what it's all about (SM is sorta that anyways). Plus the points I gave above that still haven't been responded to...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I still don't understand the arguments.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I still don't understand the arguments.

OP is saying Jirobo's SM is only a 10x multiplier because his form is strictly about physical power. Since the heaven CS isn't about that, it boosts other capabilities more than Jirobo's CS2, but the AP amp isn't as large. Some examples are brought up that are supposed to show SM not being a gargantuan amp, though I've responded to those with disagreements.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump and also bump to this

I meant Pain never did it. Nagato is far stronger than Pain.

A massive strength gap.

It's the only explanation for why his Base became high six paths level.

Which previous argument?

Is that so? I'm pretty sure that's not what the statement means. But if so, that's even more proof for other cs and SM being 10x. Would Fodder Jirobo's power up from cs1 to cs2 REALLY be more than the power up from Base to SM/Sasuke's better cs2? REALLY? Do you truly believe that?

Because it made Hashirama significantly stronger, but didn't make Naruto god tier.

No, not really. Especially because Naruto wasn't even as strong as the top tiers of the village, Kakashi and Tsunade especially.

Wdym he thought he was a new man? Besides, something being a big boost from one person's perspective is one thing, but being a big boost in the eyes of the whole village is another thing entirely.

True enough.

In fiction sometimes.

"This one's not bad. I can't even read "Make Out Paradise" while we're fighting!" Meanwhile, in real life, you'd be able to fight someone more than 100x weaker than you while sleeping.

I mean...they're Moon Level anyways, which is far above that calc.

 

[Archinord991]

Bump

 

[Archinord991]

Dont let this thread die

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah don't let it die kill it with counterevidence! Btw I thought of something else. You know the thing about how Naruto was on a whole other level from everyone on the leaf right? And how Guy and Lee were stopped cause they'd just get in the way.

Well since the 1st gate is a 5x multiplier, this would be consistent with SM being over 10x, as Guy who's considered relative to Kakashi who's relative to Naruto can become way more than 5x stronger with more gates.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/might-guys-and-rock-lees-at-least-5x-multiplier-with-gates.54347/

Also I realized it's consistent not necessarily in an in universe way, but taking into consideration the profiles. Hashirama in Base is High 7-A and 6-C (23.1 Gigatons+) in SM. It's not currently accepted, but since Madara fought SM Hashirama he should be around that level too, and he also fought KCM2 Naruto who's 26.11 Gigatons+ and we can see he wasn't using the Susanoo at some point

Which wouldn't really make sense if SM only multiplied strength by a few times or something.

Madara should also be 6-C while Blind, and assuming the 10x multiplier would be High 6-C, which would explain why all 9 Bijuu (one of which is High 6-C himself) hitting him only resulted in a cut off arm and not more damage). It also doesn't really make sense for Hashirama and Madara to be portrayed as superiors to KCM2 Naruto and Kurama if one supercharged Bijuudama would just **** them (since Naruto's would be 1.2-2 Teratons which is almost as high as their current durability of 2.6 Teratons, and Kurama's is unquantifiably less than 2.4-4 teratons without a Jin, so that's actually evidence for 10x being a lowball)

And the High 6-C+ calc fits into it too, as Madara swinging the PS sword is super casual, and is less than 3x less than their current AP.

And iirc (although I don't keep up too much with Boruto) didn't Base Kashin Koji fight 10% Jigen while SM Koji fought Isshiki? It's almost like the series is reminding us that SM is at least a 10x multiplier.

 

[LordTracer]

Base Kashin Koji fight 10% Jigen while SM Koji fought Isshiki

Jigen was at 10% chakra reserves, not AP, and Isshiki beat the shit out of SM Koji

 

[joshpiece]

and Isshiki beat the shit out of SM Koji

First point is correct but this is horribly wrong… Sm Koji did better than Naruto and Sasuke’s against Ishiki.

Literally swapped hands and blocked ishikis strikes he did not get the shit beat out of him.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Jigen was at 10% chakra reserves, not AP, and Isshiki beat the shit out of SM Koji

Being that low on reserves would obviously make you a lot weaker. Obito stated that the more Naruto's chakra drained the weaker he got so that checks out.

Same with Sasuke to Deidara.

I know this was only a clay clone, but the fact that Sasuke's conclusion when he thought Deidara's reaction time was slow was that he was low on chakra proves my point regardless.

 

[LordTracer]

Literally swapped hands and blocked ishikis strikes he did not get the shit beat out of him.

Isshiki flew straight through his Katon with no damage whatsoever.
He casually caught his fist.
They trade blows for one page before Isshiki overwhelms him.
Isshiki is completely unbothered and unconcerned by his flames.
And then Isshiki negs him by summoning pillars.

They aren’t on par, Isshiki is very clearly stronger.

 

[joshpiece]

They aren’t on par, Isshiki is very clearly stronger.

Being clearly stronger doesn’t mean Jack whenever you said he got the shit beat out of him. It was a much closer fight than the Naruto and sasuke stomp. You down playing his feats doesn’t change that.

regardless this isn’t necessary for the discussion I’ve already proved in other threads how SM koji scales to Ishiki I don’t need to do the same in this one I suggest we stop derailing

 

[RisingIons]

Neutral for now

 

[KingTempest]

This has already been accepted by several staff and knowledgeable members.

While I disagree with some of the examples Suigetsu used in the OP, removing the multipliers does make sense.

It also doesn’t affect anyone other than Minato, Hashirama and BSM so like

I agree with the OP lol.
Truth be told, I can still argue for the multipliers, but I have realized how much scaling issues they've caused us. They were actually being restrictive, and resulted in weird convoluted scaling. As it turns out we're better off without them in the grand scheme of things, so yeah. This has my seal of approval for whatever that's worth.

This seems pretty comprehensive and well researched. I'm giving a tentative agreement to the OP's premise.

Agree but I wouldnt use databook stats as an argument.

All you're arguing is that it's a boost, which no one disagreed with. My premise is that it doesn't amp 10x.

What else needs to be done here?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

¨You don't do the same for op, so reported and banned.

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU YOU'RE DOING...

 

[Slacjow]

Isshiki flew straight through his Katon with no damage whatsoever.

I think Isshiki shrank his flames, although we see something that looks like traces of fire in the next page, it's not, his shrinking usually leaves this effect, I guess that's Ikemoto showing that he shrank a technique.

 

[Baubawang11]

For what reason?

This curse mark makes his power 10 times more than the previous one, this is his perfect seninka mode

 

[Baubawang11]

For what reason?

sage mode is actually superior in speed and reflection than first Kcm, which means sage mode is able to increase strength and speed and reaction

 

[KingTempest]

This curse mark makes his power 10 times more than the previous one, this is his perfect seninka mode

Did you even read the OP?

 

[Baubawang11]

Did you even read the OP?

I made 2 statements and this is as an added power, there is one that makes naruto's speed with sage mode increase

 

[Damage3245]

This has already been accepted by several staff and knowledgeable members.

All you're arguing is that it's a boost, which no one disagreed with. My premise is that it doesn't amp 10x.

What else needs to be done here?

I'm out of the loop a little bit. Do changes to the profiles still need to be done currently?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I'm out of the loop a little bit. Do changes to the profiles still need to be done currently?

If somebody is willing to, but I recall that we're waiting for the Scaling CRTs to begin to tackle new scaling, values, multipliers, etc.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This has already been accepted by several staff and knowledgeable members.








All you're arguing is that it's a boost, which no one disagreed with. My premise is that it doesn't amp 10x.

What else needs to be done here?

I explained why at least 10x makes more sense, and it hasn't been debunked

 

[KingTempest]

You don't have a statement of it being multiplied for everyone.
You don't have a statement of it being 10x
You haven't debunked a single thing in the OP

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

This is still a thread? I thought it was closed a while back...

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You don't have a statement of it being multiplied for everyone.
You don't have a statement of it being 10x
You haven't debunked a single thing in the OP

Do you expect the story to just list everything like it's trying to be material for a wiki? That's very dry writing. There's more than enough feats and implication for it to be true. Also I found another thing supporting it.

You know the statement about 10x already.

I did debunk your examples of SM not making someone immediately overpower their opponent, and provided counter examples (which far outnumber the anti feats)

 

[KingTempest]

Do you expect the story to just list everything like it's trying to be material for a wiki?

We expect a statement of a multiplier to be given for a multiplier, which is in our standards

That's very dry writing. There's more than enough feats and implication for it to be true. Also I found another thing supporting it.

A statement for someone's technique comparable to a vague random jutsu does not support a multiplier for a transformation.

You know the statement about 10x already.

The one that applies to Jirobo? Yeah

I did debunk your examples of SM not making someone immediately overpower their opponent, and provided counter examples (which far outnumber the anti feats)

Not even close.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

We expect a statement of a multiplier to be given for a multiplier, which is in our standards

A statement for someone's technique comparable to a vague random jutsu does not support a multiplier for a transformation.


The one that applies to Jirobo? Yeah

Not even close.

So why do you think that statement about CS2 was made and highlighted so much with a black background? And why would Kishimoto give an exact number if he didn't want the viewers to know the form was a 10x multiplier?

Now you're just arguing semantics. You know the point of the statement is to say SM boosted Jiraiya's jutsu by more than 10x.

Even if you say the other Sound Four member's boosts don't scale to Jirobo, Jirobo's 10 strength multiplier comes from Jugo, so Jugo's CS2 would give a 10x multiplier if not higher as the original, which is consistent with the implication that the CS is watered down

So Jirobo's 10x multiplier would be from Jugo, and Jugo boosted EMS Sasuke to BSM Naruto's level, so yeah it's consistent that SM is 10x or higher.

Uh...ok, you say that, but it's literally true and when I gave my response to your response to my my debunk, you didn't reply.

 

[KingTempest]

Definitely didn't read the OP. I've already considered each and every one of your points in earlier replies and the OP.

Anyways this has already been accepted so I'm not stressing myself over someone who didn't read the thread and is repeating points until I say "okay okay it's 10x"

 

[Nullflowerblush]

okay okay it's 10x

He said it, guys.

 

[DaReaperMan]

OP has conceded confirmed!

Jokes aside I still agree with this CRT

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Considering this is way better than Tempest’s past Nard takes I’m wondering why this hasn’t been closed and applied yet