- 31,400
- 27,690
No.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Curse Mark and Sage Mode Multiplier Removal CRT
- Thread starter KingTempest
- Start date
- Status
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
Ok so then his ap would scale to his durability then. Especially since naruto characters generally use their chakra for dura and ap.
- 31,400
- 27,690
No. I don't think you're understanding what the issue is.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
Eh maybe, but the way I see it a characters ap would scale to his durability if he uses the same energy for both.
- 10,787
- 16,051
IDK because it would just seem strange that his Offensive Jutsu Arsenal (Katon and Mokuton) would be a whole Tier below his punches, kicks, and durability.
But if you think that's not right I'm fine with it being just "Higher With Sage Mode" or "Likely/Possibly Island Level with Sage Mode"
But we should wait for other people's comments
- 31,400
- 27,690
IMO, this would be best, but I'll wait.
- 11,750
- 16,166
Madara wasn't a tank before attaining his SM. He could physically contend with characters who could harm him, such as Hashirama, in Taijutsu altercations.
I'm not really sure why SM would massively amp his durability, but not his AP. That has never really been the case for any other SM user. In fact, the way Sage Mode was initially explained pretty much confirms that all parameters such as Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and most importantly Taijutsu receive a boost. It was never implied, shown, or stated that it boosts a certain parameter far beyond the rest.
So yeah, I'm personally not really sure there's a valid reason to place his durability far above his AP tbh.
I'm not really sure why SM would massively amp his durability, but not his AP. That has never really been the case for any other SM user. In fact, the way Sage Mode was initially explained pretty much confirms that all parameters such as Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and most importantly Taijutsu receive a boost. It was never implied, shown, or stated that it boosts a certain parameter far beyond the rest.
So yeah, I'm personally not really sure there's a valid reason to place his durability far above his AP tbh.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
Sm amps durability. Remember naruto was scared to fall on pointy rocks but with sm he's fine? that's clear dura upgrade. Also how could one of the best transformations suddenly just not amp stats?
- 10,787
- 16,051
..........
Did you properly read what he said?
- 31,400
- 27,690
It's not that we'd be rating his durability massively higher than his AP. It's just that we don't have a specific value to put his AP with Sage Mode at, so we'd leave it with "higher" for now. "Higher" doesn't mean "well below Island level."
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
I did, that's why I added an example of it amping dura.
- 10,787
- 16,051
.....
He knows that it amps Durability, he's asking why Durability in Sage Mode would be higher than its AP
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
On his page he has rinnegan and sage mode as one, He slaps the bijus with limbo, why not just scale him to that?
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
I know, all I did was show an example of it amping dura
- 10,787
- 16,051
Well with how you structured your reply to UchihaSlayer96 you made it seem like he didn't know it amps Durability.
- 10,787
- 16,051
But in this case wouldn't that make Revived Madara's SM AP just above his current High 7-A rating, therefore well below his SM Durability?
- 11,750
- 16,166
See, normally I'd agree with you. The thing is, this is a pretty ironic thing to say considering the thread we're on lol. The whole premise of this CRT is how SM isn't that big of a boost, and is conclusively well below 10x. So, yes, it would actually mean that Madara is well below Island level.
- 15,449
- 15,859
I’m in agreement with OneBleachHurricane and UchihaSlayer here. It doesn’t make sense for Madara’s Sage Mode durability to be much higher than his AP when it increases stats evenly.
The_Alxhemist
Username Only- 817
- 553
He was Multi continental because of the Deity gates but that got yeeted because seals =\= AP.
That was months ago I think lmao
- 31,400
- 27,690
Nobody said there has to be a huge difference.
My issue is in scaling AP to durability when there's no basis for it.
While we're at it, where is the statement that says all stats were increased equally? All stats recieving a boost of some kind is not the same thing as all stats recieving an equal boost.
My issue is in scaling AP to durability when there's no basis for it.
While we're at it, where is the statement that says all stats were increased equally? All stats recieving a boost of some kind is not the same thing as all stats recieving an equal boost.
- 15,988
- 11,284
This is being needlessly pedantic to the point that it's undermining what you're trying to argue. If a statement is made in the general sense then we take the statement as referring to things generally. arguing that there might be a discrepancy in stat boosts with no Precedence is not a good argument, it's entirely conjecture for no reason other than trying to solve a problem that has a very obvious solution because this argument can literally be countered by saying "Provide me proof of the statement implying that the boost isn't Linear and there are huge gaps in power between each element". and using the Durability feat as an argument of evidence in itself doesn't work because there is no contradiction, just a lack of direct comparisons.
So either Madara is Relative to his durability or his not, and if his not you need to provide evidence outside of just saying "it was never confirmed that each stat increases to island level"
the only thing that would not be compared is striking strength as the wiki makes it clear that striking strength and durability are not Mutually exclusive.
- 31,400
- 27,690
But the lack of confirmation is the biggest issue to me.
Once again, I'm not arguing that there has to be a huge discrepency in his stats... I just don't think you can say "His AP is obviously Island level because his durability is Island level." The statement doesn't make logical sense to me.
Can you explain? This seems to be the exact issue I'm referring to.
- 15,988
- 11,284
Striking strength isn't considered a valid scaling Option because how it doesn't scale linearly with durability. however AP doesn't just refer to Striking strength, it includes abilities aswell.
My issue isn't with striking strength not scaling 1:1, I have no issue with an At least or likely far higher but this wouldn't affect his AP rating as Jutsu 98% of time unless specified scale above a character's Physicals. so he would still be 6-C with the caveat of his striking strength.
- 31,400
- 27,690
If there's not an actual feat for it, then I think that "likely 6-C" with Sage Mode could work for now.
- 11,750
- 16,166
The statement, to me, seems very straightforward. It boosts Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu. It's been never stated, showed, or implied that one parameter receives a greater boost than the rest or something. Here's another statement saying the exact same thing from the Databook.
The broad mention of "Taijutsu" would imply to me that all physical parameters are equally amplified, which has never been contradicted to my knowledge. This makes sense, unless you're willing to argue that they're referring to taijutsu skill or something, which just sounds silly and makes no sense because the statement's context clearly pertains to the strength of the amp.
Anyway, I've said my piece. If you guys don't think he should be all around 6-C, that's fine. I just personally don't see the need to overanalyze and nitpick such a simple, harmless thing.And if that goes through, and Madara doesn't scale to 6-C in AP, I don't ever wanna hear anymore nonsense about the Rinnegan not being a boost in AP. You'd basically be saying that it boosted him from High 7-A all the way to High 6-C lol. Either way, I win I guess XD.
The broad mention of "Taijutsu" would imply to me that all physical parameters are equally amplified, which has never been contradicted to my knowledge. This makes sense, unless you're willing to argue that they're referring to taijutsu skill or something, which just sounds silly and makes no sense because the statement's context clearly pertains to the strength of the amp.
Anyway, I've said my piece. If you guys don't think he should be all around 6-C, that's fine. I just personally don't see the need to overanalyze and nitpick such a simple, harmless thing.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,083
- 7,874
Why was that the justification
- 3,526
- 1,255
i can agree that a boost of 10x in stats should be enough to completely body, if not blitz and one shot,someone who was already even with you before.
if this is not reflected in the fight , maybe the boost is much less than that.
As for the whole jirobo "is the weakest of the sound 4" , it's clearly in overall fighting ability, not in AP/stats. Jirobo is the physically strongest of the sound 4 by far but will lose against all the other 3 because he only have strengh and lack pretty much everything else.
if this is not reflected in the fight , maybe the boost is much less than that.
As for the whole jirobo "is the weakest of the sound 4" , it's clearly in overall fighting ability, not in AP/stats. Jirobo is the physically strongest of the sound 4 by far but will lose against all the other 3 because he only have strengh and lack pretty much everything else.
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,272
- 4,039
Kimimaro's cs2 strength was still clearly far higher. In Base he didn't damage Neji once, in cs1 which is multiple times greater, he could only pierce Neji's skin, while in cs2 he casually tore right through Neji. That seems like a 10x strength increase to me.
Tayuya was clearly far stronger in cs2 as well, given she could even resist a stronger version of shadow posession jutsu at extremely close range.
The fact that she could somewhat resist something stronger than what Shikamaru used on Hidan (who's also clearly stronger than him) is telling.
The statement about Sakon's chakra increasing is clearly a different way of saying strength. If anything cs2 has less chakra than normal since it lasts so little and drains you so much. So it's clearly not talking about reserves. Besides, why would Kiba and Akamaru be frightened in that case? They weren't frightened about Naruto who had way more chakra than him. We don't know if that translation is even the proper one, and I'd bet it's not.
It says nothing about biology for Kimimaro. And the feats back up cs2 being 10 times. Slight cs1 Kimimaro was overwhelmed by Gaara as soon as he used his more powerful moves. This shows Gaara>>slight cs Kimimaro>Base Kimimaro which is already stronger than Base. Then Gaara overwhelmed cs1 Gaara with Sand Tsunami. This shows Gaara>cs1 Kimimaro. Then when Kimimaro went cs2 holding on for dear life was all Gaara could do. So cs2 Kimimaro>>Gaara>cs1 Kimimaro>slight cs Kimimaro>Base Kimimaro, or cs2 Kimimaro>>>>>Base Kimimaro, which I think makes sense for a 10x multiplier at least.
It draws out excess power though, which in their case is probably more than 10x their base power.
He barely took a kick. Even though he blocked it knocked him flat on his ass. This happened the next time he scuffled with SM Naruto after chibaku tensei too. That's not comparability in any way.
Base Naruto would've been hurt much more by that punch. And we also saw the durability difference between Base and SM clearly. Base was stabbed by the black rods and pinned to the ground, while SM Naruto was never hurt by them except when he stuck it into himself.
As for Base Adult Naruto, that's because he kept six paths power in Base like how Goku absorbed God Essence, so getting SPSM or using SM wouldn't really amp his powers, just give him access to the abilities associated with them. BM would amp his power though.
That was partial cs2 Jugo, we see part of his skin is fully darkened. It's like this
It's more than cs1 but less than cs2.
Did he really block it though? Without much effort he snapped the sword in half. And plus Jugo was able to resist Ay longer than Suigetsu did. Also what? Why would cs2 Jugo be 10x stronger than cs1.5 Jugo? cs2 is 10x stronger than Base, and cs1 is already a large multiplication, shown with cs1 Sasuke stomping the sound ninja despite them beatinig Lee who stomped Sasuke.
Tayuya was clearly far stronger in cs2 as well, given she could even resist a stronger version of shadow posession jutsu at extremely close range.
The fact that she could somewhat resist something stronger than what Shikamaru used on Hidan (who's also clearly stronger than him) is telling.
The statement about Sakon's chakra increasing is clearly a different way of saying strength. If anything cs2 has less chakra than normal since it lasts so little and drains you so much. So it's clearly not talking about reserves. Besides, why would Kiba and Akamaru be frightened in that case? They weren't frightened about Naruto who had way more chakra than him. We don't know if that translation is even the proper one, and I'd bet it's not.
It says nothing about biology for Kimimaro. And the feats back up cs2 being 10 times. Slight cs1 Kimimaro was overwhelmed by Gaara as soon as he used his more powerful moves. This shows Gaara>>slight cs Kimimaro>Base Kimimaro which is already stronger than Base. Then Gaara overwhelmed cs1 Gaara with Sand Tsunami. This shows Gaara>cs1 Kimimaro. Then when Kimimaro went cs2 holding on for dear life was all Gaara could do. So cs2 Kimimaro>>Gaara>cs1 Kimimaro>slight cs Kimimaro>Base Kimimaro, or cs2 Kimimaro>>>>>Base Kimimaro, which I think makes sense for a 10x multiplier at least.
It draws out excess power though, which in their case is probably more than 10x their base power.
He barely took a kick. Even though he blocked it knocked him flat on his ass. This happened the next time he scuffled with SM Naruto after chibaku tensei too. That's not comparability in any way.
Base Naruto would've been hurt much more by that punch. And we also saw the durability difference between Base and SM clearly. Base was stabbed by the black rods and pinned to the ground, while SM Naruto was never hurt by them except when he stuck it into himself.
As for Base Adult Naruto, that's because he kept six paths power in Base like how Goku absorbed God Essence, so getting SPSM or using SM wouldn't really amp his powers, just give him access to the abilities associated with them. BM would amp his power though.
That was partial cs2 Jugo, we see part of his skin is fully darkened. It's like this
It's more than cs1 but less than cs2.
Did he really block it though? Without much effort he snapped the sword in half. And plus Jugo was able to resist Ay longer than Suigetsu did. Also what? Why would cs2 Jugo be 10x stronger than cs1.5 Jugo? cs2 is 10x stronger than Base, and cs1 is already a large multiplication, shown with cs1 Sasuke stomping the sound ninja despite them beatinig Lee who stomped Sasuke.
Last edited:
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,272
- 4,039
Besides, why would SM be treated as such a legendary power up that propelled Naruto to a class all of his own when he's barely Jonin level in Base (other than the Rasenshuriken at least)? If anything, 10x is a massive lowball given the difference between 7-C and High 7-A. Yeah he held his own with Pain, but it's been shown throughout the series you can somewhat tussle with far superior people in the series. This is shown with Base Hebi Sasuke neg diffing Suigetsu, yet Suigetsu was slightly able to hold off Ay despite a stronger Sasuke not being able to do much to him. Kakashi also fought the two strongest Paths but he didn't get High 7-A.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
- 8,658
Could somebody sum up the arguments against the multiplier?
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,272
- 4,039
Wrongness
- 21,469
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #192
Kimimaro's cs2 strength was still clearly far higher. In Base he didn't damage Neji once, in cs1 which is multiple times greater, he could only pierce Neji's skin, while in cs2 he casually tore right through Neji. That seems like a 10x strength increase to me.
Tayuya was clearly far stronger in cs2 as well, given she could even resist a stronger version of shadow posession jutsu at extremely close range.
The fact that she could somewhat resist something stronger than what Shikamaru used on Hidan (who's also clearly stronger than him) is telling.
The statement about Sakon's chakra increasing is clearly a different way of saying strength. If anything cs2 has less chakra than normal since it lasts so little and drains you so much. So it's clearly not talking about reserves. Besides, why would Kiba and Akamaru be frightened in that case? They weren't frightened about Naruto who had way more chakra than him. We don't know if that translation is even the proper one, and I'd bet it's not.
It says nothing about biology for Kimimaro. And the feats back up cs2 being 10 times. Slight cs1 Kimimaro was overwhelmed by Gaara as soon as he used his more powerful moves. This shows Gaara>>slight cs Kimimaro>Base Kimimaro which is already stronger than Base. Then Gaara overwhelmed cs1 Gaara with Sand Tsunami. This shows Gaara>cs1 Kimimaro. Then when Kimimaro went cs2 holding on for dear life was all Gaara could do. So cs2 Kimimaro>>Gaara>cs1 Kimimaro>slight cs Kimimaro>Base Kimimaro, or cs2 Kimimaro>>>>>Base Kimimaro, which I think makes sense for a 10x multiplier at least.
It draws out excess power though, which in their case is probably more than 10x their base power.
He barely took a kick. Even though he blocked it knocked him flat on his ass. This happened the next time he scuffled with SM Naruto after chibaku tensei too. That's not comparability in any way.
Base Naruto would've been hurt much more by that punch. And we also saw the durability difference between Base and SM clearly. Base was stabbed by the black rods and pinned to the ground, while SM Naruto was never hurt by them except when he stuck it into himself.
Nothing you just sent justifies a 10x amp. All you did was list that there was a strength gap.
This is unjustified and never even stated. SM multiplies your AP by 10 apparently. If something stops that from being the case, then it's not multiplied by 10.
Fair thenThat was partial cs2 Jugo, we see part of his skin is fully darkened. It's like this
It's more than cs1 but less than cs2.
Read the previous arguments where I tackled this
No, it's 10x stronger than CS1
How do you know it's multiplication and not large scale addition? Random "multiplication"
- 21,469
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #193
You know you can be 2x stronger and be in a class of your own.
Kakashi got his chakra amped by 3x and thought he was a new man.
You know that the profiles have nothing to do with the multiplier correct?
If Base Naruto was 7-A tomorrow, the gap would be even smaller.
You can tussle with people 10x stronger than you?
Last edited:
- 3,526
- 1,255
naruto characthers can somewhat manage against foes much stronger than them via deception, skills and the famous "teamwork" etc.
If you can tank clean hits from a characther 10x stronger and come out without severe injuries , then there is a problem. Even more if you are shown to clash blow for blows. There is a huge problem in logic.
If you can tank clean hits from a characther 10x stronger and come out without severe injuries , then there is a problem. Even more if you are shown to clash blow for blows. There is a huge problem in logic.
- 15,449
- 15,859
Tbf, this really just depends on the verse. Some verses have people fighting with people on a higher level of infinity than them, other verses consider a 2x difference to be enough for a stomp.
- 11,750
- 16,166
- 21,469
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #197
That's very true which is valid, but in Naruto I haven't seen much of that.
- 31,400
- 27,690
Well, I have no objections to the updates taking place.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
- 8,658
Let's do that.
Has anybody calculated the explosion that Naruto and Sasuke created at the Valley of the End?
- 15,449
- 15,859
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
