Cthulhu Mythos: Content Revision (Downgrade)

[Planck69]

Neutral. I do say that capping the Archetypes at High 1-B and not 1-A seems rather iffy to me, assuming this goes through.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Following cause watching an argument between two Tier 1 debaters is fun

 

[PrinceofPein]

Let me wait for proper counter arguments before making a decision so neutral right now

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Oh, this again.

Anyway: I think it is fairly straightforward to say that the Gates are, in fact, not higher dimensions, no. To grab a quote from the story:

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will.

So the whole cosmology described in Through the Gates of the Silver Key boils down to the existence of two worlds: The inner world, which is bound by perspective, change (time) and dimensions, and the outer world, the Outside, which is archetypal, changeless and beyond dimensions entirety. This being something alluded to often in other stories, for example (From The Dunwich Horror and The Whisperer in Darkness respectively):

“But as to this thing we’ve just sent back—the Whateleys raised it for a terrible part in the doings that were to come. It grew fast and big from the same reason that Wilbur grew fast and big—but it beat him because it had a greater share of the outsideness in it. You needn’t ask how Wilbur called it out of the air. He didn’t call it out. It was his twin brother, but it looked more like the father than he did.”

Three humans, six fungoid beings who can’t navigate space corporeally, two beings from Neptune (God! if you could see the body this type has on its own planet!), and the rest entities from the central caverns of an especially interesting dark star beyond the galaxy. In the principal outpost inside Round Hill you’ll now and then find more cylinders and machines—cylinders of extra-cosmic brains with different senses from any we know—allies and explorers from the uttermost Outside—and special machines for giving them impressions and expression in the several ways suited at once to them and to the comprehensions of different types of listeners. Round Hill, like most of the beings’ main outposts all through the various universes, is a very cosmopolitan place! Of course, only the more common types have been lent to me for experiment.

The Outer Extension belongs to the latter sphere of existence. This is obvious not only due to its name, the Outer Extension, but also due to how the First Gate is described as "The Inner Gate," which then leads to the conclusion that the other gates are "outer" ones:

And now, in that rise of masonry to which his eyes had been so irresistibly drawn, there appeared the outline of a titanic arch not unlike that which he thought he had glimpsed so long ago in that cave within a cave, on the far, unreal surface of the three-dimensioned earth. He realised that he had been using the Silver Key—moving it in accord with an unlearnt and instinctive ritual closely akin to that which had opened the Inner Gate. That rose-drunken sea which lapped his cheeks was, he realised, no more or less than the adamantine mass of the solid wall yielding before his spell, and the vortex of thought with which the Ancient Ones had aided his spell. Still guided by instinct and blind determination, he floated forward—and through the Ultimate Gate.

So this perfectly complements the instances in which even the Outer Extension is described as an undimensioned reality, as is. Not to mention this excerpt from Fungi from Yuggoth, which alludes to the Gates in general keeping "undimensioned worlds" at bay:

I do not know what windings in the waste
Of those strange sea-lanes brought me home once more,
But on my porch I trembled, white with haste
To get inside and bolt the heavy door.
I had the book that told the hidden way
Across the void and through the space-hung screens
That hold the undimensioned worlds at bay,
And keep lost aeons to their own demesnes

In regards of what Lovecraft treat as a Universe or "Multiverse", based on quotes above, he literally writes it as a concept that only reaches the First Gate, which is were Yog Sothoth's avatar dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. It only encompass the three-dimensional world, as anything above that is also beyond the First Gate, seen on how Carter was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man which is directly cited to be beyond the First Gate.

This is wrong, by the way:

A slight change of angle could turn the student of today into the child of yesterday; could turn Randolph Carter into that wizard Edmund Carter who fled from Salem to the hills behind Arkham in 1692, or that Pickman Carter who in the year 2169 would use strange means in repelling the Mongol hordes from Australia; could turn a human Carter into one of those earlier entities which had dwelt in primal Hyperborea and worshipped black, plastic Tsathoggua after flying down from Kythanil, the double planet that once revolved around Arcturus; could turn a terrestrial Carter to a remotely ancestral and doubtfully shaped dweller on Kythanil itself, or a still remoter creature of trans-galactic Shonhi, or a four-dimensioned gaseous consciousness in an older space-time continuum, or a vegetable brain of the future on a dark radio-active comet of inconceivable orbit—and so on, in the endless cosmic circle.

 

[Lewis]

What do you think? about which he compared the far stone to ultimate void

Oh, this again.

Anyway: I think it is fairly straightforward to say that the Gates are, in fact, not higher dimensions, no. To grab a quote from the story:



So the whole cosmology described in Through the Gates of the Silver Key boils down to the existence of two worlds: The inner world, which is bound by perspective, change (time) and dimensions, and the outer world, the Outside, which is archetypal, changeless and beyond dimensions entirety. This being something alluded to often in other stories, for example (From The Dunwich Horror and The Whisperer in Darkness respectively):





The Outer Extension belongs to the latter sphere of existence. This is obvious not only due to its name, the Outer Extension, but also due to how the First Gate is described as "The Inner Gate," which then leads to the conclusion that the other gates are "outer" ones:



So this perfectly complements the instances in which even the Outer Extension is described as an undimensioned reality, as is. Not to mention this excerpt from Fungi from Yuggoth, which alludes to the Gates in general keeping "undimensioned worlds" at bay:




This is wrong, by the way:

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

What do you think? about which he compared the far stone to ultimate void

he is just saying that they have the same function on their verse, not that they have the same complexity or tier

far shore = outside
ultimate void = outside

thats all he was saying

 

[Lewis]

he is just saying that they have the same function on their verse, not that they have the same complexity or tier

far shore = outside
ultimate void = outside

thats all he was saying

Thx for help, bro

 

[Planck69]

Ultima's making sense to me so far.

 

[Nostredam]

It says that all dimensions dissolve at the gates and stuff. It seems a bit weird for that to just include 4D space-times imo

No one here said the gates includes just 4D space-times.

I'll reply to Ultima_Reality several hours later. I'm gonna be busy today.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I disagree for Ultima's reasons.

 

[Lewis]

2 staff and 1 knowledgeable members disagree op and Now we have to wait for Nostredam to reply to Ultima, although I can't find a way to downgrade Cthulhu mythos this time.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Agree: Ovy7
Neutral:
Disagree: Ultima, Planck69

 

[Deagonx]

I was asked to give my input here, but due to lacking significant background about the verse, I am not entirely certain what the points of contention are for each side. Everything is being written about with fairly dense prose, and with a lack of a frame of reference for the structure of the cosmology, I would need a concise and concrete summary of why the verse is tiered the way it is, and the specific "point of failure" in that chain that the OP is objecting to, with a brief description of what the evidence is, and why it should be interpreted differently.

Wish I could help more, but I can't make heads or tails of what anyone is really saying here.

 

[Darksmash]

Agree: Ovy7
Neutral:
Disagree: Ultima, Planck69

rip regular user opinions don't matter

 

[Lewis]

rip regular user opinions don't matter

This is Viking democracy, brother

 

[Planck69]

rip regular user opinions don't matter

I sacrificed a nerd to Cthulhu for this tag, I'm gonna use it.

 

[Ovy7]

damn, then cthulhu has some low standards for sacrifices

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

rip regular user opinions don't matter

i mean.....

 

[Nostredam]

I think it is fairly straightforward to say that the Gates are, in fact, not higher dimensions, no.

The Gates are higher dimensions, as evidenced by quotes from post #1 which you did not respond. Let's see them carefully:

1:

The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

2:

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.

3:

By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him. There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the Silver Key. A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

The first quote explains that the three-dimensional phase of the world of men and of the gods of men is reached by the First Gate, meaning it is dimensioned (as the lowest layer of the hierarchy, since its the first one).

The second quote explains that, by being beyond the First Gate, Carter was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. That is, beyond the three-dimensional world, as the eye and brain of man can only perceive dimensionality in three directions, hence why its beyond the First Gate, who in the previous quote is shown to only reach the 3D space. That is a higher spatial dimension, precisely because it is not bound by the lowest layer of the hierarchy, but rather a higher one.

The third quote explains that the Ultimate Gate leads to the Last Void, which is outside all universes. What that means here, exactly? Well, it is a direct proof that only the Ultimate Gate can lead to a place outside all universes, meaning that the other gates (there is an multiplicity of them) cannot do it. And that makes sense, because in post #58 I put a quote that directly mentions the notion of universes (in plural) as only cited beyond the First Gate:

And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered—a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate. It was as though suns and worlds and universes had converged upon one point whose very position in space they had conspired to annihilate with an impact of resistless fury. But amidst the greater terror one lesser terror was diminished; for the searing waves appeared somehow to isolate the beyond-the-gate Carter from his infinity of duplicates—to restore, as it were, a certain amount of the illusion of identity. After a time the hearer began to translate the waves into speech-forms known to him, and his sense of horror and oppression waned. Fright became pure awe, and what had seemed blasphemously abnormal seemed now only ineffably majestic.

That is, the Gates indeed work as lower and higher dimensions, seen how the lowest is below universes while the highest is outside (i.e encompasses) all of them. Add the first and second quotes and you get a fairly objective notion on how it works. Moving on:

To grab a quote from the story -- So the whole cosmology described in Through the Gates of the Silver Key boils down to the existence of two worlds: The inner world, which is bound by perspective, change (time) and dimensions, and the outer world, the Outside, which is archetypal, changeless and beyond dimensions entirety.

There is no "beyond dimensions" entirely in the quote(s), or anything like that. The quote you put cites that the entities outside the gates command all angles; so, I ask you: Why are you putting a quote that talks about a notion outside the gates to somehow prove that the gates themselves are not higher dimensions? That doesn't support your argument in the slightest. Also, it is entirely illogical to assert that this is related to the gates, because the archetypes are cited to reside in finite dimensions and they are merely manifestations of one archetypal in a space outside dimensions (post #1):

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it.

Which means that the gates works as higher dimensions as the beings residing in them are merely finite-dimensional manifestations of a archetypal that exists in the reachless heights of infinity (also post #1):

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.

To summarize: In order to command all angles you must be outside the gates, reachless of any finite dimension within the hierarchy; precisely on the top of it. That does not discard any point made by me about the gates being higher dimensions.

This being something alluded to often in other stories, for example (From The Dunwich Horror and The Whisperer in Darkness respectively): --

Neither of the two quotes here proves, even as an complement, that the gates are not higher dimensions or anything about "beyond dimensions entirely". In fact, let's take a closer look to the second quote you put in this section:

In the principal outpost inside Round Hill you’ll now and then find more cylinders and machines—cylinders of extra-cosmic brains with different senses from any we know—allies and explorers from the uttermost Outside—and special machines for giving them impressions and expression in the several ways suited at once to them and to the comprehensions of different types of listeners. Round Hill, like most of the beings’ main outposts all through the various universes, is a very cosmopolitan place! Of course, only the more common types have been lent to me for experiment.

Which agains confirms that the notion of universes, in plural, can only be speakable when going beyond the First Gate, that is, going outside it. This is no assumption, as in this same story (The Whisperer in Darkness) it is said this:

The Outer Beings are perhaps the most marvellous organic things in or beyond all space and time—members of a cosmos-wide race of which all other life-forms are merely degenerate variants. They are more vegetable than animal, if these terms can be applied to the sort of matter composing them, and have a somewhat fungoid structure; though the presence of a chlorophyll-like substance and a very singular nutritive system differentiate them altogether from true cormophytic fungi. Indeed, the type is composed of a form of matter totally alien to our part of space—with electrons having a wholly different vibration-rate. That is why the beings cannot be photographed on the ordinary camera films and plates of our known universe, even though our eyes can see them. With proper knowledge, however, any good chemist could make a photographic emulsion which would record their images.

That one quote disproves the fact that the Outside is beyond dimensions entirely, as the Outer Beings are "just" beyond the perception of "our" (three-dimensional) known universe, and the fact that with proper knowledge it is capable of make a photographic emulsion which would record their images. I'm not suggesting that the residents of the Outer Extension are merely 4D, but rather showing how they cannot be above dimensions entirely as they are just beyond the scope of finite dimensions (which is what the changeless/eternal archetypal infinity is, a baseline High 1-B being). Moving:

The Outer Extension belongs to the latter sphere of existence. This is obvious not only due to its name, the Outer Extension, but also due to how the First Gate is described as "The Inner Gate," which then leads to the conclusion that the other gates are "outer" ones: --

Here, you are right. Anything above the First Gate is also outside it, which are the other gates. You know more precisely why? Check your own quote:

And now, in that rise of masonry to which his eyes had been so irresistibly drawn, there appeared the outline of a titanic arch not unlike that which he thought he had glimpsed so long ago in that cave within a cave, on the far, unreal surface of the three-dimensioned earth. He realised that he had been using the Silver Key—moving it in accord with an unlearnt and instinctive ritual closely akin to that which had opened the Inner Gate. That rose-drunken sea which lapped his cheeks was, he realised, no more or less than the adamantine mass of the solid wall yielding before his spell, and the vortex of thought with which the Ancient Ones had aided his spell. Still guided by instinct and blind determination, he floated forward—and through the Ultimate Gate.

The reason is because the First Gate only encompasses the three-dimensional world, while the other gates exist outside it, in higher (finite) dimensions, as seen above on the quote of the Outer Beings being beyond all space and time of the "known universe". Rather that proving that the gates are not higher dimensions, you actually supported my argument right now.

So this perfectly complements the instances in which even the Outer Extension is described as an undimensioned reality, as is. Not to mention this excerpt from Fungi from Yuggoth, which alludes to the Gates in general keeping "undimensioned worlds" at bay:

You are heavily, heavily taking things out of context. The reason why Lovecraft uses the word "undimensioned" is not because the Outer Extension is beyond dimensions entirely, of anything that warrants a tier higher than High 1-B. The reason why he uses the word "undimensioned" is because the Old Ones are unseen to the three-dimensional beings (the dimensions we know), thus, a measure (dimension) cannot be applied for them in the 3D perspective (from The Dunwich Horror):

The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth.

Second one (from Through the Gates of the Silver Key):

Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.

I will again say the problems that I have in this thread so far: The people who is arguing against me are too often showing out of context quotes that instead of supporting their arguments, actually support mine. Let's go even further: Beyond the Ultimate Gate, the notion of dimensionality is still applied:

And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons. He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher’s house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth’s trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate.

Take a note that "transdimensional" is relating to a dimension other than those of the normal three-dimensional world.

This is wrong, by the way:

In this part Ultima_Reality repplied to a sentence that I made where I say that the First Gate only encompasses 3D space (anyone who has read the thread so far can say this is true). Here is the quote that he put to say the contrary:

A slight change of angle could turn the student of today into the child of yesterday; could turn Randolph Carter into that wizard Edmund Carter who fled from Salem to the hills behind Arkham in 1692, or that Pickman Carter who in the year 2169 would use strange means in repelling the Mongol hordes from Australia; could turn a human Carter into one of those earlier entities which had dwelt in primal Hyperborea and worshipped black, plastic Tsathoggua after flying down from Kythanil, the double planet that once revolved around Arcturus; could turn a terrestrial Carter to a remotely ancestral and doubtfully shaped dweller on Kythanil itself, or a still remoter creature of trans-galactic Shonhi, or a four-dimensioned gaseous consciousness in an older space-time continuum, or a vegetable brain of the future on a dark radio-active comet of inconceivable orbit—and so on, in the endless cosmic circle.

Which never mentions the First Gate in the first place. Nothing more to say here.

Extra Section​

The first thing that Ultima_Reality typed before making his arguments was this:

Oh, this again.

That was very curious to me, because, by saying that, I can interpret that my arguments were already been shown on this wiki (and thus debunked). However, if you, people, had read everything so far, is very clear that Ultima covered only a small portion of my arguments presented in post #1. He never made counter arguments for:

1. The fact that the quotes used in the Explanation Page about High 1-B universes are not talking about the universes, but what can be perceived beyond the First Gate.

2. The fact that there is three quotes showed by me asserting that the First Gate only reaches the 3D world and the archetypes being explained two times to be finite-dimensional.

3. The fact that the "ultimate infinity" quote is not talking about a supposed Low 1-A Multiverse before the First Gate.

4. The fact that the Ultimate Void does not transcend the hierarchy, but rather exists at the very top of it (which already discards the Tier 0 rantings were, even ignoring everything above).

So I may ask: Why "this again"? Because most of my arguments didn't even got covered in the first place by the disagree side. And that is saying something, since the other users from this thread who disagree also didn't covered nothing and didn't contested (or refuted) directly any argument.

 

[Nostredam]

I want to say that I can't be much active in this wiki on tuesdays and thursdays, because, well, I have a social life (job). If I delay to repply on those days, this is the reason.

 

[Tarang123]

You are heavily, heavily taking things out of context. The reason why Lovecraft uses the word "undimensioned" is not because the Outer Extension is beyond dimensions entirely, of anything that warrants a tier higher than High 1-B. The reason why he uses the word "undimensioned" is because the Old Ones are unseen to the three-dimensional beings (the dimensions we know), thus, a measure (dimension) cannot be applied for them in the 3D perspective (from The Dunwich Horror):

It says "undimensioned and unseen". Would that not imply that they're both dimensionless and unknown to people? I don't think it's some causal relationship

 

[Nostredam]

It says "undimensioned and unseen". Would that not imply that they're both dimensionless and unknown to people? I don't think it's some causal relationship

Being "dimensionless" is an entirely irrelevant thing unless you are referring to 0D structures/beings. They aren't necessarily unknown, simply above what the earth mind of humans can understand, as their perception is limited to the third dimension.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

It says "undimensioned and unseen". Would that not imply that they're both dimensionless and unknown to people? I don't think it's some causal relationship

" undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know"

the text presented kinda says that from the perspective of us mortal humans they appear undimensioned cus we simply cant comprehend them and are beyond the ones we know and experience

 

[Tarang123]

" undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know"

the text presented kinda says that from the perspective of us mortal humans they appear undimensioned cus we simply cant comprehend them and are beyond the ones we know and experience

Yeah, I saw that after reading through the rest of the evidence he posted.

 

[Darksmash]

It says "undimensioned and unseen". Would that not imply that they're both dimensionless and unknown to people? I don't think it's some causal relationship

Considering Lovecraft directly calls it dimensioned multiple times I think it's fair to assume that his usage of "undimensioned" isn't as straightforward as vswiki wants to assume. Also yes the text mentions "dimensions we know" at the end.

 

[Tarang123]

Considering Lovecraft directly calls it dimensioned multiple times I think it's fair to assume that his usage of "undimensioned" isn't as straightforward as vswiki wants to assume. Also yes the text mentions "dimensions we know" at the end.

Yeah, I read the rest of the quotes after posting the comment. That was my dumbass not reading the whole thing first

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Nostredam]

Bump.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm going to disagree with this. There has already been a thread (https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-downgrade.120051/) where someone tried to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos to similar heights as you're proposing here, and it was rejected after over a month of debate that ended with this vote tally, which I doubt will change much here, given how Ultima has already made his anti-downgrade stance pretty clear and the other staff are all inclined to agree with him:

Agree: @QuasiYuri, @Apex_PredatorX, @RandomGuy, @Saiyan40009, @Ovy7, @TheRicardoSama, @Rikimarox2, @Shuradou, @Darksmash, @ImNot4nUser, @Livinmeme, @Guardian_Doge

Disagree: @ShivaShakti , @Planck69 , @BrackishBrineBroth, @Roachman40, @Elizhaa, @DaReaperMan, @Infinity_Shun, @Ultima_Reality, @Tyranno223, @Emirp sumitpo, @Brak, @DaringAttitude4, @OnsokunoSonic, @ZeedKrakenZilla, @Rez, @ZetaMarishi, @KingPin0422, @Abu2411, @Antvasima, @InfiniteDay, @Shizuka

Neutral: @Great_king_frog

The vote was 21-1-12, which is nearly a 2/3rds majority against, and that's counting the votes of regular members; the agreeing side only had one retired staff member while the disagreeing side had 1 bureaucrat, 2 admins, and 2 thread mods, and retired staff don't have evaluation rights as far as I know, so in the eyes of the site rules on whose votes actually matter, the vote was more like 0-5. Now, as for your actual arguments, though I consider myself knowledgeable on this verse and I'm one of the four people who worked the most on the cosmology page, I don't have the spare time to argue with you that much, so expect my participation here to be less than Ultima. Consider me agreeing with him FRA after reading both of your arguments. However, I will say that if/when this thread is rejected, I will propose a discussion rule to the staff banning people from trying to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos's cosmology to stop us from having to go through this tiresome debate again.

 

[Tarang123]

I'm going to disagree with this. There has already been a thread (https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-downgrade.120051/) where someone tried to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos to similar heights as you're proposing here, and it was rejected after over a month of debate that ended with this vote tally, which I doubt will change much here, given how Ultima has already made his anti-downgrade stance pretty clear and the other staff are all inclined to agree with him:

The vote was 21-1-12, which is nearly a 2/3rds majority against, and that's counting the votes of regular members; the agreeing side only had one retired staff member while the disagreeing side had 1 bureaucrat, 2 admins, and 2 thread mods, and retired staff don't have evaluation rights as far as I know, so in the eyes of the site rules on whose votes actually matter, the vote was more like 0-5. Now, as for your actual arguments, though I consider myself knowledgeable on this verse and I'm one of the four people who worked the most on the cosmology page, I don't have the spare time to argue with you that much, so expect my participation here to be less than Ultima. Consider me agreeing with him FRA after reading both of your arguments. However, I will say that if/when this thread is rejected, I will propose a discussion rule to the staff banning people from trying to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos's cosmology to stop us from having to go through this tiresome debate again.

There's only been one thread and this one also brings up new arguments beyond some of the ones in the other thread. I don't really see the point of making a discussion rule lol.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

There's only been one thread and this one also brings up new arguments beyond some of the ones in the other thread. I don't really see the point of making a discussion rule lol.

It was only a suggestion, not something I was sure would go through.

 

[Nostredam]

I'm going to disagree with this. There has already been a thread (https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-downgrade.120051/) where someone tried to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos to similar heights as you're proposing here, and it was rejected after over a month of debate that ended with this vote tally

So...? Said someone has nothing to do here.

which I doubt will change much here, given how Ultima has already made his anti-downgrade stance pretty clear and the other staff are all inclined to agree with him

Until now, he haven't repplied (most of) my arguments and the counter arguments that I put on post #99.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Being "dimensionless" is an entirely irrelevant thing unless you are referring to 0D structures/beings. They aren't necessarily unknown, simply above what the earth mind of humans can understand, as their perception is limited to the third dimension.

0-D isn't Undimensioned. It's Zero Dimensions. Something can be 0-D and still possess coordinates.

 

[Nostredam]

0-D isn't Undimensioned. It's Zero Dimensions. Something can be 0-D and still possess coordinates.

I didn't said 0D is undimensioned. I said 0D is dimensionless.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

So...? Said someone has nothing to do here.



Until now, he haven't repplied (most of) my arguments and the counter arguments that I put on post #99.

I was pointing out that Ultima doesn't seem inclined to agree with what you're saying, given how much he's argued against downgrades before. I've asked him to reply on his wall.

 

[Tarang123]

I didn't said 0D is undimensioned. I said 0D is dimensionless.

How are those different?

 

[Nostredam]

How are those different?

Undimensioned can refer to being dimensionless; they are technically the same thing. The reason why I'm separating both is because Lovecraft's usage of "undimensioned" clearly does not refer to 0D entities or structures, but rather the fact that you can't measure the Old Ones with 3D notions.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I'm going to disagree with this. There has already been a thread (https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-downgrade.120051/) where someone tried to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos to similar heights as you're proposing here, and it was rejected after over a month of debate that ended with this vote tally, which I doubt will change much here, given how Ultima has already made his anti-downgrade stance pretty clear and the other staff are all inclined to agree with him:

The vote was 21-1-12, which is nearly a 2/3rds majority against, and that's counting the votes of regular members; the agreeing side only had one retired staff member while the disagreeing side had 1 bureaucrat, 2 admins, and 2 thread mods, and retired staff don't have evaluation rights as far as I know, so in the eyes of the site rules on whose votes actually matter, the vote was more like 0-5. Now, as for your actual arguments, though I consider myself knowledgeable on this verse and I'm one of the four people who worked the most on the cosmology page, I don't have the spare time to argue with you that much, so expect my participation here to be less than Ultima. Consider me agreeing with him FRA after reading both of your arguments. However, I will say that if/when this thread is rejected, I will propose a discussion rule to the staff banning people from trying to downgrade the Cthulhu Mythos's cosmology to stop us from having to go through this tiresome debate again.

1. this is a new thread the old one with the votes has nothing to do with this one
2. one staff disagreeing does not magically mean that all the info gets thrown out
3. this thread has brought new info/more info which allows for a thread to be open on the same topic as long as new or more info is presented that was not before
4. this is a debate site, going out of the way to make rules so that verses u like don't ever get downgraded is contradictory to the very purpose of the site

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

1. this is a new thread the old one with the votes has nothing to do with this one
2. one staff disagreeing does not magically mean that all the info gets thrown out
3. this thread has brought new info/more info which allows for a thread to be open on the same topic as long as new or more info is presented that was not before
4. this is a debate site, going out of the way to make rules so that verses u like don't ever get downgraded is contradictory to the very purpose of the site

1. Bringing up the old thread's votes was meant to be a reminder, not a hard defeater.
2. Nor did I imply it to mean that, only that this thread being accepted is unlikely.
3. Nowhere did I imply that this thread should be closed on the spot.
4. I'm fairly indifferent to the Cthulhu Mythos as a storytelling franchise because it's not the type of thing I'm invested in, but what verses you like personally and what verses you are good at debating about are different. I'm not trying to make a rule to wank the Cthulhu Mythos, only to save the site trouble, and I'm not even confident on the rule going through - it was only a suggestion.

 

[Lewis]

I'm not trying to make a rule to wank the Cthulhu Mythos

Nice suuu