Cthulhu Mythos: Content Revision (Downgrade)

[Ped2018]

Disagree: ultima planck
Agree: ovy7

Damn, @Ovy7 is goated

 

[Darksmash]

Shadow mod

 

[Nostredam]

So has this thread been rejected then?

Not even close. Most of the people here agreed with the OP proposals. If you are counting only Staff Members, then these two were the ones who disagreed:

• Ultima_Reality (explained his counter arguments on post #84)
• Planck69 (agreed with Ultima_Reality's counter arguments, but didn't give his own counters)

However, in post #99, I've explained and repplied in detail my points while also countering Ultima's arguments, and showing how he only responded to 1/5 of the actual content in this CRT. I think that basing off argumentation alone, this thread has more probability of getting accepted (or just being right) than not getting accepted (or just being wrong).

I'll still wait Ultima_Reality to move this thread and come to terms with him about CM's Tier.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Not even close. Most of the people here agreed with the OP proposals. If you are counting only Staff Members, then these two were the ones who disagreed:

• Ultima_Reality (explained his counter arguments on post #84)
• Planck69 (agreed with Ultima_Reality's counter arguments, but didn't give his own counters)

However, in post #99, I've explained and repplied in detail my points while also countering Ultima's arguments, and showing how he only responded to 1/5 of the actual content in this CRT. I think that basing off argumentation alone, this thread has more probability of getting accepted (or just being right) than not getting accepted (or just being wrong).

I'll still wait Ultima_Reality to move this thread and come to terms with him about CM's Tier.

Except that "basing off argumentation alone" isn't how it works. If you can't get staff consensus, this won't pass, and Ultima is the staff most experienced with the Cthulhu Mythos here, the other staff are inclined to agree with him, and that a staff didn't give their own arguments when signing onto someone else's opinions has no bearing on their vote's weight. From what I've seen from him on the last attempted downgrade, he can endure debating you for weeks and will eventually respond to everything, which is why I'm saying this thread has a low chance of passing. Give him time until the Low 1-A discussion finishes.

 

[Nostredam]

Except that "basing off argumentation alone" isn't how it works.

Except that I've never said it does. Your post doesn't adress anything to mine's.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Except that I've never said it does. Your post doesn't adress anything to mine's.

Your grammar is incoherent and your claim unjustified. As for the arguments Ultima made, wait for him, not me.

 

[Nostredam]

Your grammar is incoherent and your claim unjustified. As for the arguments Ultima made, wait for him, not me.

I've typed that basing off argumentation, I think that the thread has more probability of getting accepted/being right. I never claimed that argumentation was the actual only method of getting a thread accepted, like you insinuated when you repplied my comment. With that said, you should stop derailing here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I've typed that basing off argumentation, I think that the thread has more probability of getting accepted/being right. I never claimed that argumentation was the actual only method of getting a thread accepted, like you insinuated when you repplied my comment. With that said, you should stop derailing here.

I didn't insinuate that, only pointed something out, "unjustified" was referring to your claim that my post didn't address anything, and your claim that I'm derailing is also unjustified.

 

[Nostredam]

I didn't insinuate that, only pointed something out, "unjustified" was referring to your claim that my post didn't address anything, and your claim that I'm derailing is also unjustified.

The very fact that you are making several comments here that doesn't adress the OP proposal is already counting as derailment. I made this thread to debate about the topic, which you're not doing.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The very fact that you are making several comments here that doesn't adress the OP proposal is already counting as derailment. I made this thread to debate about the topic, which you're not doing.

You made a post and I responded to it to point out something. What's derailing about that? You chose to respond to Ant asking if this thread was rejected by adding on something about argumentation that you didn't need to say. That said, this tangent will evolve into derailing if we get into an argument about the minutiae of what constitutes "derailing," so we should both stop.

 

[Nostredam]

You made a post and I responded to it to point out something. What's derailing about that?

The something you pointed has nothing to do with the actual thread. Saying "basing off argumentation alone isn't how it works", while I never claimed it does, is derailing to the topic, since you are not contributing with it by any substantial way.

 

[Ped2018]

@IdiosyncraticLawyer can you please stop? This is derailing.

@Nostredam just stop answering him if he continues.

 

[Nostredam]

@Nostredam just stop answering him if he continues.

Agree. Is a waste of time and not productive.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. Which staff members agree and disagree here?

We just went through an unproductive conversation here you should probably judge a bit.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

It seems like your evaluation help is required here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-content-revision-downgrade.153388/post-5733631

 

[Nostredam]

@Ultima_Reality

It seems like your evaluation help is required here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-content-revision-downgrade.153388/post-5733631

You can close this thread. I will not involve myself any further with this toxic wiki.

 

[Tarang123]

You can close this thread. I will not involve myself any further with this toxic wiki.

You might as well carry the revision to the end before leaving.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You can close this thread. I will not involve myself any further with this toxic wiki.

I'm gonna be blunt, getting heated=/=Toxicity. You're in an argument, eventually patience is gonna run out and things are gonna get heated, birds fly, fish swim, Human psychology does its thing.

If you cant take the heat get out of the forge, nothing more to it man

 

[Ped2018]

I'm gonna be blunt, getting heated=/=Toxicity. You're in an argument, eventually patience is gonna run out and things are gonna get heated, birds fly, fish swim, Human psychology does its thing.

If you cant take the heat get out of the forge, nothing more to it man

Bones man spitting as usual

 

[KLOL506]

You can close this thread. I will not involve myself any further with this toxic wiki.

So you are going to bring up old conflicts from eons back where the other guy had hilariously bad arguments and now you're going to use this to incite further drama against me. You couldn't have picked a better time or place to do so and completely ruin your arguments and their worth altogether.

That too in threads unrelated in topic to this.

I honestly don't know what to say about this TBF, other than... good luck?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You can close this thread. I will not involve myself any further with this toxic wiki.

Considering this rage quit you've just pulled, I'll take a moment out of my day to debunk your arguments in full instead of waiting for Ultima so we can fulfill your request of closing this thread sooner. I may not be as skilled as him and he could probably do this far better, but I'm still good enough to handle one post.

The Gates are higher dimensions, as evidenced by quotes from post #1 which you did not respond. Let's see them carefully:

1:


2:


3:


The first quote explains that the three-dimensional phase of the world of men and of the gods of men is reached by the First Gate, meaning it is dimensioned (as the lowest layer of the hierarchy, since its the first one).

The second quote explains that, by being beyond the First Gate, Carter was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. That is, beyond the three-dimensional world, as the eye and brain of man can only perceive dimensionality in three directions, hence why its beyond the First Gate, who in the previous quote is shown to only reach the 3D space. That is a higher spatial dimension, precisely because it is not bound by the lowest layer of the hierarchy, but rather a higher one.

The third quote explains that the Ultimate Gate leads to the Last Void, which is outside all universes. What that means here, exactly? Well, it is a direct proof that only the Ultimate Gate can lead to a place outside all universes, meaning that the other gates (there is an multiplicity of them) cannot do it. And that makes sense, because in post #58 I put a quote that directly mentions the notion of universes (in plural) as only cited beyond the First Gate:



That is, the Gates indeed work as lower and higher dimensions, seen how the lowest is below universes while the highest is outside (i.e encompasses) all of them. Add the first and second quotes and you get a fairly objective notion on how it works. Moving on:

The first quote says that the world of gods and men is part of the three-dimensional phase of the small wholeness reached by the first gate, but nowhere does that prove that the "small wholeness" as a whole is dimensioned. One portion of a structure having a property doesn't mean the entire encompassing structure has it. The second quote can simply be chalked up to Carter's inability to comprehend the Outer Extension properly, coupled with the fact that this is his first impression. For the third quote, the cosmology page has compiled evidence to suggest that this Outer Extension is only one of many, so the Ultimate Gate is only described as being beyond them all because it isn't assigned to one universe, instead overseeing them in general, which doesn't mean the first gate can't take you to somewhere beyond the scope of any universe but only directly encompassing one, which we have far more evidence for. As for that last supporting quote, it's clear;y meant to be some flowery language for how powerfully Yog-Sothoth's waves are blasting Carter, so it's unusable for any of the things you tried to glean from it.

There is no "beyond dimensions" entirely in the quote(s), or anything like that. The quote you put cites that the entities outside the gates command all angles; so, I ask you: Why are you putting a quote that talks about a notion outside the gates to somehow prove that the gates themselves are not higher dimensions? That doesn't support your argument in the slightest. Also, it is entirely illogical to assert that this is related to the gates, because the archetypes are cited to reside in finite dimensions and they are merely manifestations of one archetypal in a space outside dimensions (post #1):



Which means that the gates works as higher dimensions as the beings residing in them are merely finite-dimensional manifestations of a archetypal that exists in the reachless heights of infinity (also post #1):



To summarize: In order to command all angles you must be outside the gates, reachless of any finite dimension within the hierarchy; precisely on the top of it. That does not discard any point made by me about the gates being higher dimensions.



Neither of the two quotes here proves, even as an complement, that the gates are not higher dimensions or anything about "beyond dimensions entirely". In fact, let's take a closer look to the second quote you put in this section:



Which agains confirms that the notion of universes, in plural, can only be speakable when going beyond the First Gate, that is, going outside it. This is no assumption, as in this same story (The Whisperer in Darkness) it is said this:



That one quote disproves the fact that the Outside is beyond dimensions entirely, as the Outer Beings are "just" beyond the perception of "our" (three-dimensional) known universe, and the fact that with proper knowledge it is capable of make a photographic emulsion which would record their images. I'm not suggesting that the residents of the Outer Extension are merely 4D, but rather showing how they cannot be above dimensions entirely as they are just beyond the scope of finite dimensions (which is what the changeless/eternal archetypal infinity is, a baseline High 1-B being). Moving:

I'll concede that Ultima shouldn't have cited that quote for your reasons. However, that first quote is clearly saying that the residents of the lower worlds are all manifestations of something outside, which doesn't refer to the Archetypes, and a few paragraphs later, the Archetypes are clearly stated to reside in the unambiguously not-finite-dimensioned Ultimate Void:

The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

The second quote, from TWD, merely states that Round Hill sometimes gets visitors from the utmost outside, which doesn't support your claims in the slightest. The third quote, also from TWD, can simply be chalked up to Lovecraft not caring for consistent world-building, as he saw the Cthulhu Mythos as a fun pastime, not serious literature; we rank the Ultimate Gods as timeless and changeless based on TGSK despite TDQ describing them to have been born with time and reproducing for this exact reason.

Here, you are right. Anything above the First Gate is also outside it, which are the other gates. You know more precisely why? Check your own quote:



The reason is because the First Gate only encompasses the three-dimensional world, while the other gates exist outside it, in higher (finite) dimensions, as seen above on the quote of the Outer Beings being beyond all space and time of the "known universe". Rather that proving that the gates are not higher dimensions, you actually supported my argument right now.



You are heavily, heavily taking things out of context. The reason why Lovecraft uses the word "undimensioned" is not because the Outer Extension is beyond dimensions entirely, of anything that warrants a tier higher than High 1-B. The reason why he uses the word "undimensioned" is because the Old Ones are unseen to the three-dimensional beings (the dimensions we know), thus, a measure (dimension) cannot be applied for them in the 3D perspective (from The Dunwich Horror):



Second one (from Through the Gates of the Silver Key):



I will again say the problems that I have in this thread so far: The people who is arguing against me are too often showing out of context quotes that instead of supporting their arguments, actually support mine. Let's go even further: Beyond the Ultimate Gate, the notion of dimensionality is still applied:



Take a note that "transdimensional" is relating to a dimension other than those of the normal three-dimensional world.



In this part Ultima_Reality repplied to a sentence that I made where I say that the First Gate only encompasses 3D space (anyone who has read the thread so far can say this is true). Here is the quote that he put to say the contrary:



Which never mentions the First Gate in the first place. Nothing more to say here.

First, that the Old Ones are unseen to three-dimensional beings works just as well if they are higher than High 1-B, and other evidence points in that direction. Second, people on Earth clearly know about dimensions not ending at three, as shown by Walter Gilman in TDWH:

It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true. This was a matter for speculation, though one could be fairly certain that the type of mutation involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next higher plane would not be destructive of biological integrity as we understand it. Gilman could not be very clear about his reasons for this last assumption, but his haziness here was more than overbalanced by his clearness on other complex points. Professor Upham especially liked his demonstration of the kinship of higher mathematics to certain phases of magical lore transmitted down the ages from an ineffable antiquity—human or pre-human—whose knowledge of the cosmos and its laws was greater than ours.

Third, that quote you brought up about stuff beyond the Ultimate Gate literally says the opposite of what you claim, describing an "unknown and formless cosmic abyss", not anything dimensioned. Also, besides Wiktionary not being as reliable as academic dictionaries (I couldn't even find "transdimensional" in Merriam-Webster, which counts against your point), words as obscure as this need to be evaluated in their context, and it works better as supporting evidence when the story repeatedly concerns stuff beyond angled space. I don't really know what Ultima was saying with that last quote, but it's irrelevant now anyway.

Extra Section​

The first thing that Ultima_Reality typed before making his arguments was this:



That was very curious to me, because, by saying that, I can interpret that my arguments were already been shown on this wiki (and thus debunked). However, if you, people, had read everything so far, is very clear that Ultima covered only a small portion of my arguments presented in post #1. He never made counter arguments for:

1. The fact that the quotes used in the Explanation Page about High 1-B universes are not talking about the universes, but what can be perceived beyond the First Gate.

2. The fact that there is three quotes showed by me asserting that the First Gate only reaches the 3D world and the archetypes being explained two times to be finite-dimensional.

3. The fact that the "ultimate infinity" quote is not talking about a supposed Low 1-A Multiverse before the First Gate.

4. The fact that the Ultimate Void does not transcend the hierarchy, but rather exists at the very top of it (which already discards the Tier 0 rantings were, even ignoring everything above).

So I may ask: Why "this again"? Because most of my arguments didn't even got covered in the first place by the disagree side. And that is saying something, since the other users from this thread who disagree also didn't covered nothing and didn't contested (or refuted) directly any argument.

Ultima typed "this again" because Darksmash had already made a thread (https://vsbattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-downgrade.120051/) trying to do the same thing as you nearly two years ago that got rejected with a 0-5 staff vote after he had a tiring debate with the OP. I'll go over what he didn't cover:

1. There are far more comprehensive debunks to this claim in the old thread I linked, and you can read them if you want, but it's far too long for me to give a TL;DR for.
2. This was already addressed, if not by Ultima, then at least by me in this post.
3. Nor did anyone think it meant that; we always understood it to refer to the Ultimate Void. The actual proof for a Low 1-A multiverse is how universes, which Celephaïs describes as infinite, are mere atoms to a "super-cosmos" discussed in TWD.
4. The Ultimate Void very clearly transcends the hierarchy, which is also clearly infinite; Hypnos explicitly describes it as "limitless vacua" and Dream-Quest as "endless voids" below the Ultimate Void, which surpasses the hierarchy as a whole. Also, even if we took your interpretation as valid, it wouldn't change the Ultimate Void's ratings due to some obtuse mathematical reasoning I don't know, as DontTalkDT explained in this post in the Low 1-A thread.

 

[ByAsura]

Closed by OP request, I guess.