Cthulhu Mythos: Content Revision (Downgrade)

[Nostredam]

Introduction​

Cthulhu Mythos will stand out as one of the most prominent fictional works in regarding of Multiversal Debates on the internet, having a defined reputation as being one of the strongest verses ranted on this wiki and in general media. The problem when analyzing its feats, statements, etc, comes with the fact that Howard Phillips Lovecraft himself is noted to write complex horror tales that, while contribute to showing the scope and size of his works, are often filled with elements that require a large amount of time to actually understand and apply in Fictional Discussions. Fortunely, on this wiki, we have a stablished Explanation Page for those who want to check its high rantings based on the Tiering System page.

In this thread, however, I will point out what I think it's wrong in said Explanation Page, based on interpretation issues, and mostly not involving any issue with the Tiering System page itself. Do note that, since this thread is about a literature piece of fiction, I will not post links (a.k.a scans) that lead to Imgur or any other image hosting server. All the information cited on this thread is taken out from The H.P. Lovecraft Archive (mostly in specific the Electronic Texts section), which anyone can read online without problems. The citations will be quoted below from Lovecraft's works. Without further ado, let's begin.

Universe, "Multiverse" and the Gates​

Before anything, I would like to mention a regular idea when people generally scale the size of a certain cosmology based on the aforementioned Tiering System page: Hierarchy. The idea of hierarchies lies in the fact that certain fictional cosmologies only properly get their Tiers because there is a hierarchy within said cosmologies, and in some cases, Composite Hierarchies that play a major role in getting a verse's ranting. Cthulhu Mythos is no different from that, after all, the reason because the verse has a Tier 0 ranting is because of the existence of a High 1-A structure to be transcended by it; the High 1-A structure exists because there is a 1-A+ hierarchy to be in turn transcended; and said hierarchy only exists because there is in the first place a High 1-B hierarchy. With that said, taking away a single hierarchy from all the scheme above would lead to a big downfall in both rantings and cosmological aspects. Those things in specific are what I'm going to elaborate.

For starters, in the Explanation Page we got seven quotes talking about the Universe/Multiverse, with only three of them fitting in the justification for High 1-B and Low 1-A respectively:

#1:

I have said that there were things in some of Akeley’s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation.

#2:

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

#3:

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

The problem here is pretty straightfoward: None of those quotes are actually referring to the regular universes or the "multiverse". Those quotes have a full context that is not actually mentioned directly through the page, but due to Deductive Reasoning it can be asserted that the missing context invalidates the entire premisse right from the start.

The quote of Yog-Sothoth showing the Infinite-Dimensional nature of the cosmos to Carter is not referring to a regular universe, but rather what can be perceived beyond the First Gate, which is outside the standard tri-dimensional world and constitutes a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man (i.e beyond three-dimensional space):

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.

Note that this quote is right below the paragraph used to prove that regular universes are Infinite-Dimensional, when, in fact, the word "cosmos" in this case is taking about regions beyond the universe as a whole, beyond the First Gate. Furthermore, the #3 quote actually confirms exactly that, because it is said that the three-dimensional world of men and of the gods of men is an infinitesimal portion whose totality is reached by the First Gate. Instead of proving the universes being High 1-B, the quote itself negates that idea by asserting that all of the 3-D space only reaches the First Gate. Not only that, but the text right before also supports that. Here:

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.

Basically, it is explained through finite dimensional values how a structure can possess three, four and five dimensions, respectively, until reaching the unattainable heights of the archetypal infinity; which demonstrates that the totality of the archetypal infinite is simply Infinite-Dimensional and that all its manifestations are Finite-Dimensional. Those manifestations, or archetypes, being on the low-dimensioned worlds/gates, in the Ultimate Abyss:

The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

That's not all, the manifestations are noted to be Finite-Dimensional, being aspects of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions:

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it.

In regards of what Lovecraft treat as a Universe or "Multiverse", based on quotes above, he literally writes it as a concept that only reaches the First Gate, which is were Yog Sothoth's avatar dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. It only encompass the three-dimensional world, as anything above that is also beyond the First Gate, seen on how Carter was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man which is directly cited to be beyond the First Gate.

Of course, there is a infinite hierarchy, but the first "layer" of said hierarchy it's not High 1-B. The hierarchy begins in a three-dimensional world (reached by the First Gate) and goes until the Ultimate Gate which is the reachless heights of archetypal infinity:

Randolph Carter’s advance through that Cyclopean bulk of abnormal masonry was like a dizzy precipitation through the measureless gulfs between the stars. From a great distance he felt triumphant, godlike surges of deadly sweetness, and after that the rustling of great wings, and impressions of sound like the chirpings and murmurings of objects unknown on earth or in the solar system. Glancing backward, he saw not one gate alone, but a multiplicity of gates, at some of which clamoured Forms he strove not to remember.

And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.

He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher’s house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth’s trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate.

Summary​

With that said, I consider the interpretation of each Universe being High 1-B flat out wrong, as the quotes used to prove it are actually referring to the hierarchy of gates and only in the very end of it the High 1-B ranting shows up, as anything before that is a manifestation in a finite dimension. The #1 quote in the previous section directly states that the cosmos is linked to a chain that in the end constitutes the "ultimate infinity", which is pretty much the Ultimate Gate/Last Void outside all universes:

By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him. There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the Silver Key. A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

TL;DR

The 1-A+ ranting falls to High 1-B (the quotes used are the same hierarchy), the High 1-A ranting falls to Low 1-A and the Tier 0 ranting falls to 1-A, because by lacking a hierarchy in their lowest structure (The Universe), the entire scaling chain is reduced to only one hierarchy providing Finite-Dimensional rantings for its manifestations while the totality of infinity is High 1-B.

Bonus​

As stated in the Explanation Page, the Ultimate Void is High 1-A, while here it is being converted into Low 1-A. However, as I stated on this thread, the Ultimate Void is the top of the hierarchy of gates whose totality (archetypal infinity) is High 1-B. Then why I don't consider it to be transcendent over said hierarchy? Well, because is not.

According to the page, The Ultimate Void exists beyond the Dreamlands, a hierarchy of "limitless vacua" and "endless voids" of pure dreams, and for that it should be above the hierarchy. However, the quotes themselves only provide actual proof of it being unreachable to said dreams because, directly speaking, those dreams/layers are finite within the hierarchy. It does not matter how much of them you stack up, they will not reach infinity itself (the "top" of the hierarchy), which is why the text speaks of Azathoth as being at the centre of the infinite, not actually above it:

There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep.

That's why it is called "genuine infinity" in the first place. We know due to Through the Gates of the Silver Key that Carter's self was annihilated just from "seeing" Yog Sothoth's True Self, which is described as beyond the Ultimate Gate, which in turn is described (as showed previously) to be outside all (finite-dimensional) universes:

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. It was as though his body had been suddenly transformed into one of those many-limbed and many-headed effigies sculptured in Indian temples, and he contemplated the aggregation in a bewildered attempt to discern which was the original and which the additions—if indeed (supremely monstrous thought) there were any original as distinguished from other embodiments.

In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.

Which would suggest that the only thing above the reachless heights of the archetypal infinity is the Supreme Archetype itself.

The Actual TL;DR​

Universe/First Gate: Low 2-C
Hierarchy of Gates: Low 1-C to 1-B
Ultimate Gate/Abyss/Last Void: High 1-B
The Supreme Archetype: Low 1-A

 

[Robo432343]

bro made a vsbw account just to send that

 

[Nostredam]

bro made a vsbw account just to send that

Actually, I made this account to debate about videogames. I posted this CRT because, pretty much, I would like to discuss with staff and members about the works of one of my favorite authors of literature (Lovecraft).

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Following. And I agree with the OP.

 

[Darksmash]

According to the page, The Ultimate Void exists beyond the Dreamlands, a hierarchy of "limitless vacua" and "endless voids" of pure dreams, and for that it should be above the hierarchy. However, the quotes themselves only provide actual proof of it being unreachable to said dreams because, directly speaking, those dreams/layers are finite within the hierarchy. It does not matter how much of them you stack up, they will not reach infinity itself (the "top" of the hierarchy), which is why the text speaks of Azathoth as being at the centre of the infinite, not actually above it:

Yeah and there's also the fact that the archetypes don't operate in any way different from the hierarchy below them. Lower dimensions are cut out from higher dimensions, and the archetypes stand at the end of this chain.

Anyways, most of these points are the same as what was brought up in my own thread some time before and my opinions haven't really changed from back then so I agree. But good luck getting this thread through lol.

Oh and the supreme archetype should be the same tier as the ultimate void because it's directly said to be a denizen of it.

 

[Nostredam]

Oh and the supreme archetype should be the same tier as the ultimate void because it's directly said to be a denizen of it.

Are you talking about this quote?

As the waves paused again, Carter began to comprehend, vaguely and terrifiedly, the ultimate background of that riddle of lost individuality which had at first so horrified him. His intuition pieced together the fragments of revelation, and brought him closer and closer to a grasp of the secret. He understood that much of the frightful revelation would have come upon him—splitting up his ego amongst myriads of earthly counterparts—inside the First Gate, had not the magic of ’Umr at-Tawil kept it from him in order that he might use the Silver Key with precision for the Ultimate Gate’s opening. Anxious for clearer knowledge, he sent out waves of thought, asking more of the exact relationship between his various facets—the fragment now beyond the Ultimate Gate, the fragment still on the quasi-hexagonal pedestal beyond the First Gate, the boy of 1883, the man of 1928, the various ancestral beings who had formed his heritage and the bulwark of his ego, and the nameless denizens of the other aeons and other worlds which that first hideous flash of ultimate perception had identified with him. Slowly the waves of the BEING surged out in reply, trying to make plain what was almost beyond the reach of an earthly mind.

If yes, the denizens are actually referring to the waves of few (lower) dimensional zones, which is but a fragment (facet) of the Supreme Archetype:

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will.

You can verify through the last two quotes of post #1 that it exists beyond the Ultimate Gate itself, which is why Carter's self was annihilated after going past it:

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. It was as though his body had been suddenly transformed into one of those many-limbed and many-headed effigies sculptured in Indian temples, and he contemplated the aggregation in a bewildered attempt to discern which was the original and which the additions—if indeed (supremely monstrous thought) there were any original as distinguished from other embodiments.

By the way, @Antvasima could you input some feedback here? I'm willing to debate with anyone in order to those changes be applied on the profiles. Thanks.

 

[ShionAH]

Neutral

 

[ShionAH]

By the way, @Antvasima could you input some feedback here? I'm willing to debate with anyone in order to those changes be applied on the profiles. Thanks.

Normal users can't ping people. You gotta go to Ants message wall and hope he sees it

 

[Gasper]

Stop the downplay, in the previous thread i debunked all that shit.

 

[Nostredam]

Stop the downplay, in the previous thread i debunked all that shit.

Cite the "refution" here in this thread, while quoting my reasonings and contesting each one of them, then.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Following

 

[Darksmash]

Are you talking about this quote?

No I was referring to this:

The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

You can verify through the last two quotes of post #1 that it exists beyond the Ultimate Gate itself, which is why Carter's self was annihilated after going past it:

Ultimate void=/=ultimate gate

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT

 

[Greatsage13th]

following

 

[Nostredam]

No I was referring to this:

That sentence is not talking about the Supreme Archetype directly, but Carter's own archetype, which is derived from the Supreme Archetype:

Almost stunned with awe, and with a kind of terrifying delight, Randolph Carter’s consciousness did homage to that transcendent ENTITY from which it was derived. As the waves paused again he pondered in the mighty silence, thinking of strange tributes, stranger questions, and still stranger requests. Curious concepts flowed conflictingly through a brain dazed with unaccustomed vistas and unforeseen disclosures. It occurred to him that, if those disclosures were literally true, he might bodily visit all those infinitely distant ages and parts of the universe which he had hitherto known only in dreams, could he but command the magic to change the angle of his consciousness-plane. And did not the Silver Key supply that magic? Had it not first changed him from a man in 1928 to a boy in 1883, and then to something quite outside time? Oddly, despite his present apparent absence of body, he knew that the Key was still with him.

- - - -

Ultimate void=/=ultimate gate

The quote posted directly mentions "Ultimate Gate", not Void:

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. It was as though his body had been suddenly transformed into one of those many-limbed and many-headed effigies sculptured in Indian temples, and he contemplated the aggregation in a bewildered attempt to discern which was the original and which the additions—if indeed (supremely monstrous thought) there were any original as distinguished from other embodiments.

Also, I don't see how Ultimate Gate & Void can't be used interchangeably (in tiering regards), since the first is directly linked to the latter, outside all finite extensions of the hierarchy:

A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

 

[Darksmash]

That sentence is not talking about the Supreme Archetype directly, but Carter's own archetype, which is derived from the Supreme Archetype:

That just sounds like a dishonest reading of the text considering the very next statement talks about Carter's lineage being derived from the supreme archetype as well as goes onto talk about how it's not just Carter but all kinds of great thinkers across the multiverse:

The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

There would be no reason to state any of these extremely specific properties were it talking about some special archetype that supercedes even the ultimate void and all other archetypes. Couple that with Carter's archetype still being called the "chief" of the archetypes it seems clear to me that it's referring to the supreme archetype.

Also the passage you posted doesn't prove Carter's archetype is different from the supreme archetype and derived from it. Carter's consciousness at that point of time was referring to the awareness he currently possessed which is made very clear to still not be on the level of the archetypes iirc.

Also, I don't see how Ultimate Gate & Void can't be used interchangeably (in tiering regards), since the first is directly linked to the latter, outside all finite extensions of the hierarchy:

They can be interchangeable in tiering regards but not when we are discussing in-verse hierarchies. The ultimate gate is clearly something that leads to the void.

 

[Nostredam]

That just sounds like a dishonest reading of the text considering the very next statement talks about Carter's lineage being derived from the supreme archetype as well as goes onto talk about how it's not just Carter but all kinds of great thinkers across the multiverse:

I fail to see how exactly it is a "dishonest reading" considering that what you said is what I also said previously; that Carter's archetype is derived from the Supreme Archetype. It is not the Supreme Archetype itself that inhabits the Ultimate Gate, but rather all of its descendants.

There would be no reason to state any of these extremely specific properties were it talking about some special archetype that supercedes even the ultimate void and all other archetypes.

There is a reason, and that reason is Lovecraft's himself establishing that. Here:

As the waves paused again, Carter began to comprehend, vaguely and terrifiedly, the ultimate background of that riddle of lost individuality which had at first so horrified him. His intuition pieced together the fragments of revelation, and brought him closer and closer to a grasp of the secret. He understood that much of the frightful revelation would have come upon him—splitting up his ego amongst myriads of earthly counterparts—inside the First Gate, had not the magic of ’Umr at-Tawil kept it from him in order that he might use the Silver Key with precision for the Ultimate Gate’s opening. Anxious for clearer knowledge, he sent out waves of thought, asking more of the exact relationship between his various facets—the fragment now beyond the Ultimate Gate, the fragment still on the quasi-hexagonal pedestal beyond the First Gate, the boy of 1883, the man of 1928, the various ancestral beings who had formed his heritage and the bulwark of his ego, and the nameless denizens of the other aeons and other worlds which that first hideous flash of ultimate perception had identified with him. Slowly the waves of the BEING surged out in reply, trying to make plain what was almost beyond the reach of an earthly mind.

Yog-Sothoth is beyond all the hierarchy of waves/archetypes since each one of them is a mere facet of him, a shadow of a greater reality that constitutes all the universes:

Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality. Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.

So overall, Yog being described as beyond the Ultimate Gate ultimately proves that his true self is not limited by the hierarchy, but rather above the extensions of it reached by its descendants. He is the Supreme Archetype for that exact reason.

Couple that with Carter's archetype still being called the "chief" of the archetypes it seems clear to me that it's referring to the supreme archetype.

Because it is, since Carter has a direct relationship with the SA. Still, the point being argued is that said archetype is still derived from the Supreme Archetype, your own quote says so:

The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

That can't be used to prove the Supreme Archetype shares the same level of existence of the hierarchy when in fact all of it is a mere facet from the "BEING" (Yog-Sothoth).

Also the passage you posted doesn't prove Carter's archetype is different from the supreme archetype and derived from it. Carter's consciousness at that point of time was referring to the awareness he currently possessed which is made very clear to still not be on the level of the archetypes iirc.

The quote above in bold answers that.

They can be interchangeable in tiering regards but not when we are discussing in-verse hierarchies. The ultimate gate is clearly something that leads to the void.

So what's your point exactly? During the start of the thread until now I used both as interchangeable because they are linked to each other and thus have the same level of "transcendence" (High 1-B). If I were to put an example, the Ultimate Gate would be something like the Far Shore from Marvel Comics while the Last Void would be The Outside, also from Marvel Comics.

 

[Nostredam]

And... nobody came.

 

[ShionAH]

And... nobody came.

Be patient.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

And... nobody came.

Afaik @Firestorm808 @Elizhaa @Deagonx and @Qawsedf234 are some staff members willing to deal with tier 1 stuff so you should contact them directly to check the thread

 

[Ovy7]

Agree with the OP

 

[Nostredam]

Afaik @Firestorm808 @Elizhaa @Deagonx and @Qawsedf234 are some staff members willing to deal with tier 1 stuff so you should contact them directly to check the thread

Well, I already put a message on @Antvasima's profile in order to get this thread supported by staff and (most importantly) knowledgeable members of Cthulhu Mythos to see their opinions and if they agree to make a change on the verse's rantings here. I'm still waiting for his repply, though.

 

[ShionAH]

Well, I already put a message on @Antvasima's profile in order to get this thread supported by staff and (most importantly) knowledgeable members of Cthulhu Mythos to see their opinions and if they agree to make a change on the verse's rantings here. I'm still waiting for his repply, though.

Ant is really busy so you should probably try to look for others

 

[Nostredam]

Ant is really busy so you should probably try to look for others

The "KLOL506" user in this thread already tagged two apparently knowledgeable users to check this thread. At least, from what I've seen, one of them ("Ultima Reality") has time to view it.

 

[BLS]

I want to hear some rebuttals from knowledgeable members and staff like Ultima first. Also this thread should probably be moved to staff discussion if it gets traction

 

[Larssx]

Agree with op.

 

[Lewis]

really??? You compare the far stone to the ultimate void. I strongly disagree Because a single divine azathoth that resembles an apophatic concept and considering other areas beyond what you've presented is not enough to downgrade since you don't consider Dreamlands as a 1-A+ hierarchical structure and the universe is suspected. which explicitly mentions all infinity dimension and compares the mathematical spatial coordinates that are really higher dimensions using geometry. There is, for example, the city of R'yel where observers say that the city has an unusual geometric shape. All of which lead to infinity dimension which is a higher dimension. which is aleph 0 and is a subset of the multiverse containing super-cosmos that are infinitely larger than the universe. which should be aleph 1 as it meets the current tiering system criteria and finally please don't compare the two fictions as it may cause conflicts. which looks stupid

 

[Lewis]

@Gasper lethimcook bro

 

[Ped2018]

@Gasper lethimcook bro

W pfp

 

[ShionAH]

really??? You compare the far stone to the ultimate void. I strongly disagree Because a single divine azathoth that resembles an apophatic concept and considering other areas beyond what you've presented is not enough to downgrade since you don't consider Dreamlands as a 1-A+ hierarchical structure and the universe is suspected. which explicitly mentions all infinity dimension and compares the mathematical spatial coordinates that are really higher dimensions using geometry. There is, for example, the city of R'yel where observers say that the city has an unusual geometric shape. All of which lead to infinity dimension which is a higher dimension. which is aleph 0 and is a subset of the multiverse containing super-cosmos that are infinitely larger than the universe. which should be aleph 1 as it meets the current tiering system criteria and finally please don't compare the two fictions as it may cause conflicts. which looks stupid

I disagree with the OP because of this

 

[Nostredam]

really??? You compare the far stone to the ultimate void. I strongly disagree Because a single divine azathoth that resembles an apophatic concept and considering other areas beyond what you've presented is not enough to downgrade since you don't consider Dreamlands as a 1-A+ hierarchical structure and the universe is suspected. which explicitly mentions all infinity dimension and compares the mathematical spatial coordinates that are really higher dimensions using geometry. There is, for example, the city of R'yel where observers say that the city has an unusual geometric shape. All of which lead to infinity dimension which is a higher dimension. which is aleph 0 and is a subset of the multiverse containing super-cosmos that are infinitely larger than the universe. which should be aleph 1 as it meets the current tiering system criteria and finally please don't compare the two fictions as it may cause conflicts. which looks stupid

There is nothing to repply here since you bring no actual proof on why the arguments presented on the CRT are wrong, while also lacking redaction skills to properly express what is your point exactly.

Also, I compared the Far Shore to the Ultimate Gate because they are similar concepts within the discussion that I made with the "Darksmash" user, where I stated that the Ultimate Gate & Last Void were used interchangeable. Don't nitpick here please.

 

[Lewis]

similar concept

How similar are the concepts?bruh

that I made with the "Darksmash" user

That's all about you during Darksmash. Not an argument for me ,and what indicates that there is a concept similar to the ultimate void compared to far stone?? finally h.p fiction before marvel will wank power like silly

 

[Nostredam]

How similar are the concepts?bruh

The Ultimate Gate is the last thing before the Last Void, similarly on how the Far Shore is the last thing before The Outside. Again, don't nitpick here.

That's all about you during Darksmash. Not an argument for me ,

It's actually strange you mention that, since, if that is about me and Darksmash, you should even be complaining right now by saying that:

don't compare the two fictions as it may cause conflicts. which looks stupid

There was never an intention of causing conflicting or comparating both verses, only pointing an example to make the argument (mine, in this case) more comprehensible.

and what indicates that there is a concept similar to the ultimate void compared to far stone and finally h.p fiction before marvel will wank power like silly

That sentence is entirely irrelevant to this thread. I would like for you (and anyone here) to don't delay the discussion by bringing mostly not useful points at all. Those who disagree should at least bring proof and repply each of the arguments presented in post #1, after all, I don't want the thread to have low level repplies.

 

[Lewis]

The Ultimate Gate is the last thing before the Last Void, similarly on how the Far Shore is the last thing before The Outside

huh that's all??

 

[Nostredam]

Yes.

 

[Lewis]

I still disagree op because the universe still has the same infinity dimension and using mathematical principles. which uses geometric forms to describe higher dimensions, which is similar to Marvel's Quantum Zone

 

[Nostredam]

I still disagree op because the universe still has the same infinity dimension and using mathematical principles. which uses geometric forms to describe higher dimensions, which is similar to Marvel's Quantum Zone

The hierarchy made of an multiplicity of gates (whose top is the Ultimate Gate) does. The universe doesn't.

 

[Lewis]

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

From the scans, the Outer Extension is beyond all known dimensions. So they are above all dimensional theories as well. It represents the inaccessibility of the lower dimensions. I think you will read and consider carefully.

 

[Nostredam]

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

There is no "above all dimensional theories", only above (in this context, outside) the dimensions that the human mind (earth beings) knows (three-dimensional space). That doesn't get past even Low 2-C.

 

[Lewis]

the human mind (earth beings)

It was an argument that immediately felt like my IQ dropped. I have nothing to say. I still disagree.