Cthulhu Mythos: Content Revision (Downgrade)

[Nostredam]

It was an argument that immediately felt like my IQ dropped. I have nothing to say. I still disagree.

Yeah, because arguing that quote somehow proves "above all dimensional theories" is low IQ worth. I'll wait to a more serious user to come and directly point with arguments what is supposedly wrong, anyway.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

From the scans, the Outer Extension is beyond all known dimensions. So they are above all dimensional theories as well. It represents the inaccessibility of the lower dimensions. I think you will read and consider carefully.

No consensus on this CRT yet, but this is not how we scale things. They don't scale above all dimensional theories, just all dimensions shown to exist in the verse.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It's just like characters who scale beyond mathematical axioms, don't scale to Tier 0, because the verse isn't being specific.

 

[Lewis]

No consensus on this CRT yet, but this is not how we scale things. They don't scale above all dimensional theories, just all dimensions shown to exist in the verse.

thanks for help Because right now I'm pretty sleepy. may cause communication to be distorted But what you said looks good to me.

 

[AlexZiggy]

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate"
Doesn't this quote debunk this whole thing?

 

[Lewis]

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate"
Doesn't this quote debunk this whole thing?

Fuiyoh!!? - Uncle Roger 2023

 

[Nostredam]

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate"
Doesn't this quote debunk this whole thing?

Yes. That quote debunks the notion of a regular universe being High 1-B, as the First Gate only encompasses the three-dimensional world/phase within the hierarchy. Anything above the First Gate is also above the notion of dimensionality known by man.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Yes. That quote debunks the notion of a regular universe being High 1-B, as the First Gate only encompasses the three-dimensional world/phase within the hierarchy. Anything above the First Gate is also above the notion of dimensionality known by man.

?

 

[Nostredam]

?

Excuse me?

 

[AlexZiggy]

Excuse me?

That quote says the First Gate encompasses a "small wholeness", of which it's "three-dimensional phase" is infinitesimal. That's gotta be the continuum of a universe, especially since we know from Dreams in the Witch House that universes can have an indefinite number of dimensions

 

[Nostredam]

That quote says the First Gate encompasses a "small wholeness", of which it's "three-dimensional phase" is infinitesimal. That's gotta be the continuum of a universe, especially since we know from Dreams in the Witch House that universes can have an indefinite number of dimensions

The world of man and of the god of man is infinitesimal compared to the rest of the hierarchy that stands above it, hence why the First Gate reaches its wholeness (which is, by deduction, small compared to the rest).

In the thread there is already a quote asserting that, by being beyond the First Gate, Carter can perceive a region of dimensions beyond the known by man:

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.

Also, you saying that this quote supposedly debunks the "whole thing" makes me wonder if you even read the thread itself.

 

[AlexZiggy]

The world of man and of the god of man is infinitesimal compared to the rest of the hierarchy that stands above it, hence why the First Gate reaches its wholeness (which is, by deduction, small compared to the rest).

In the thread there is already a quote asserting that, by being beyond the First Gate, Carter can perceive a region of dimensions beyond the known by man:



Also, you saying that this quote supposedly debunks the "whole thing" makes me wonder if you even read the thread itself.

I read the proposal, you are making the case that the gate hierarchy is the infinite dimensional hierarchy. But to make it absolutely clear since this might be the disconnect we are having, what are you defining the small wholeness as?

 

[Nostredam]

I read the proposal, you are making the case that the gate hierarchy is the infinite dimensional hierarchy. But to make it absolutely clear since this might be the disconnect we are having, what are you defining the small wholeness as?

The small wholeness is a "fraction" of the world of man and of the god of man (i.e of the three-dimensional space):

The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.

Essentialy, the First Gate only reaches a finite-dimensional value rather than being somehow above a Low 1-A ranting, like the Explanation Page claims. The waves/archetypes are manifestations of the reachless archetypal infinity and they reside in finite dimensions:

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions.

For that reason, the Universe is not High 1-B since the archetypes on the ultimate abyss are clearly referred to as having Finite-Dimensional properties.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

OP seems to make sense on his argument and he brings prof, those that are disagreeing currently have presented no prof to negate his claims, so agree with the proposals from my part.

 

[Nostredam]

OP seems to make sense on his argument and he brings proves, those that are disagreeing currently have presented no prof to negate his claims, so agree with the proposals from my part.

Thanks for supporting the thread.

 

[AlexZiggy]

The small wholeness is a "fraction" of the world of man and of the g

The world of men and their gods is said to be an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing. It then says that it's the three dimensional phase of the small wholeness reached by the First Gate. The small wholeness here being the infinite dimensions talked about later. Are you saying the small wholeness is the infinitesimal thing that's 3D?
Whatever answer to that question you might have, it still doesn't change the quotes in Dreams in the Witch House about universes containing an indefinite number of dimensions, I'm assuming you just glossed over that in the explanation page.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne

What do you think about this?

 

[Nostredam]

The world of men and their gods is said to be an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing. It then says that it's the three dimensional phase of the small wholeness reached by the First Gate. The small wholeness here being the infinite dimensions talked about later. Are you saying the small wholeness is the infinitesimal thing that's 3D?

The small wholeness is not the infinite dimensions. As I myself quoted:

The world of man and of the god of man is infinitesimal compared to the rest of the hierarchy that stands above it, hence why the First Gate reaches its wholeness (which is, by deduction, small compared to the rest).

Moving on, post #53 pretty much sums it up my arguments from post #1 where I show that the archetypes (which any knowledgeable Lovecraft reader knows that exist above the regular universe) are Finite-Dimensional manifestations of the actual archetypal infinity. That's it.

Whatever answer to that question you might have, it still doesn't change the quotes in Dreams in the Witch House about universes containing an indefinite number of dimensions, I'm assuming you just glossed over that in the explanation page.

I ignored those quotes because they actually don't fulfil the requirements of being High 1-B, really. I didn't feel the necessity on explaining in the thread why those quotes don't support anything, because I thought it was obvious for anyone who has actually readed the story. But okay, I'll adress them.

For first, let's see what The Dreams in the Witch House's story treat as "dimension", basing on the Explanation Page's quotes:

Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.

The first in bold relates the three-dimensional sphere and its infinite remoteness as points. Not actually higher dimensions were all the mass from the lower one is seen as nonexistent, but rather its shape through equidistant points, which is something very common on two-dimensional euclidian geometry.

The second in bold asserts that beings from the 3D space could survive (which means they can physically exist) on the higher one (4D), which speaks for itself as not having any qualitative superiority relationship between said dimensions.

The third in bold explains that those dimensions are actually phases within other space-time continua, meaning they share the same level of existence and are more like pocket space zones rather than full superior mathematical spaces. Let's move on:

It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true. This was a matter for speculation, though one could be fairly certain that the type of mutation involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next higher plane would not be destructive of biological integrity as we understand it. Gilman could not be very clear about his reasons for this last assumption, but his haziness here was more than overbalanced by his clearness on other complex points. Professor Upham especially liked his demonstration of the kinship of higher mathematics to certain phases of magical lore transmitted down the ages from an ineffable antiquity—human or pre-human—whose knowledge of the cosmos and its laws was greater than ours.

The first in bold is pretty much straightfoward and shouldn't require someone to explain it, but I'll still do it for you: The dimensions are realms that possess their own living habitants and its speculated that they could survive entry on those "indefinitely multiplied dimensions", meaning they again are not higher spatial dimensions. So I ask you how this quote supports your point exactly, because none of that by any means debunks the First Gate (that exists above the universe) being Finite Dimensional.

The second in bold asserts that the higher planes can be understanded by the lower ones and would not be destructive for the biological integrity (an physical element) of said habitants. That shows that the "higher planes (dimensions)" are not given superiority properties because of them being infinitely above the lower dimensions or anything like that.

The third in bold talks about higher mathematics... but in the sense that certain phases have greater knowledge of the laws of the cosmos, hence the reason of their superior understanding about mathematical laws.

Overall, there is no single quote relevant here to this thread. Not only that, but in the same story it is never said in the first place that a single universe contains those indefinite dimensions, even assuming they'd fit in a High 1-B ranting (only 1-B actually, as indefinite =/= infinite). In the same story a boundary that separates the fourth dimension and a regular universe is directly mentioned:

Gilman dropped in at a doctor’s office on the 16th of the month, and was surprised to find his temperature was not as high as he had feared. The physician questioned him sharply, and advised him to see a nerve specialist. On reflection, he was glad he had not consulted the still more inquisitive college doctor. Old Waldron, who had curtailed his activities before, would have made him take a rest—an impossible thing now that he was so close to great results in his equations. He was certainly near the boundary between the known universe and the fourth dimension, and who could say how much farther he might go?

You need more? If yes, the notion of universes (in plural) is only mentioned when you go beyond the First Gate, meaning the latter is not above a "Low 1-A Multiverse":

And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered—a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate. It was as though suns and worlds and universes had converged upon one point whose very position in space they had conspired to annihilate with an impact of resistless fury. But amidst the greater terror one lesser terror was diminished; for the searing waves appeared somehow to isolate the beyond-the-gate Carter from his infinity of duplicates—to restore, as it were, a certain amount of the illusion of identity. After a time the hearer began to translate the waves into speech-forms known to him, and his sense of horror and oppression waned. Fright became pure awe, and what had seemed blasphemously abnormal seemed now only ineffably majestic.

My main problem here is that the being arguing against my arguments only post certain quotes of Lovecraft's works while completely ignoring the full context of them. It's not hard to read everything of a single Lovecraft tale, people.

 

[Ovy7]

What do you think about this?

I've replied a couple hours ago that I agree with the OP.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

nothing related to what u said but just an advise to put on the OP at the end those that agree, are neutral and disagree with the changes, that will make it easier to follow the votes

 

[Antvasima]

I've replied a couple hours ago that I agree with the OP.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[AKUTO123]

I didn't read cthulhu but the op is seems sense

 

[Tarang123]

We had a similar CRT like a year ago iirc so I know most of the arguments. That said, I’m neutral but leaning towards agreeing.

 

[AlexZiggy]

he small wholeness is not the infinite dimensions. As I myself quoted:

So you're saying that the hierarchy is the Gate/dimensional hierarchy and that the First Gate simply leads outside 3 dimensions? And that's what the 3 dimensional phase was? If so, why is the three-dimensional world merely a "phase" of that small wholeness? It could that the small wholeness is not the infinite hierarchy, but saying it only envelops 3D space seems wrong.

Moving on, post #53 pretty much sums it up my arguments from post #1 where I show that the archetypes (which any knowledgeable Lovecraft reader knows that exist above the regular universe) are Finite-Dimensional manifestations of the actual archetypal infinity. That's it.

I also don't know how you got High 1-B Archetypes. The Archetypes are the people of the Ultimate Abyss which reside outside space and time. Wouldn't that scale them above the hierarchy?

I ignored those quotes because they actually don't fulfil the requirements of being High 1-B, really. I didn't feel the necessity on explaining in the thread why those quotes don't support anything, because I thought it was obvious for anyone who has actually readed the story.

Weird that you thought that one of the excerpts used to prove universes are High 1-B wasn't worth adressing but whatever.

The first in bold relates the three-dimensional sphere and its infinite remoteness as points. Not actually higher dimensions were all the mass from the lower one is seen as nonexistent, but rather its shape through equidistant points, which is something very common on two-dimensional euclidian geometry.

Yeah dimensions are just spatial axes through which points can be located. Now I am not an expert in set theory or higher dimensions, nor am I an expert in the tiering system, but I believe spatial dimensions qualify for 1-B/High 1-B, ragardless of wether or not lower dimensional beings can survive in higher ones. And yes, they are higher spatial dimensions, unless you believe the dimensions mentioned in Dreams are different than the ones in Through tha Gates, which I don't know how you would without declaring either non canon. Which is it? Are they High 1-B or not?

(only 1-B actually, as indefinite =/= infinite)

Indefinite simply means unknown, it doesn't contradict there being infinite dimensions, which we know exist thanks to Through the Gates. I also feel the term "universe" can be misleading. It would be more accurate to say that the continua can be infinite dimensional.

 

[Nostredam]

So you're saying that the hierarchy is the Gate/dimensional hierarchy and that the First Gate simply leads outside 3 dimensions? And that's what the 3 dimensional phase was? If so, why is the three-dimensional world merely a "phase" of that small wholeness? It could that the small wholeness is not the infinite hierarchy, but saying it only envelops 3D space seems wrong.

Not outside the 3 dimensions, directly towards them. What lies outside (or beyond) the 3D space are the region of dimensions cited to be beyond the First Gate, where Carter perceived dimensions beyond the known by man. See post #51.

On why the three-dimensional world is merely a phase of the small wholeness, see the first section of post #53. I already answered that.

I also don't know how you got High 1-B Archetypes. The Archetypes are the people of the Ultimate Abyss which reside outside space and time. Wouldn't that scale them above the hierarchy?

"High 1-B Archetypes" is wrong. Only one archetype is High 1-B, and that is the archetypal infinity. The other ones are merely manifestations from that one in finite dimensions. See the very #1 post for that.

Also, residing outside of space and time is not High 1-B, at least not here. The archetypes can exist outside/above other regions of the hierarchy, since there are an multiplicity of gates, but at the end the layer in which they are is finite.

Yeah dimensions are just spatial axes through which points can be located. Now I am not an expert in set theory or higher dimensions, nor am I an expert in the tiering system, but I believe spatial dimensions qualify for 1-B/High 1-B, ragardless of wether or not lower dimensional beings can survive in higher ones.

A lower-dimensional being surviving/existing in a higher dimensional space discard any (uncountably) infinitely superiority, as said lower-dimensional beings would be rather 0 (nonexistent) in those planes. You should argue yourself why it is 1-B/High 1-B even after all the context given above by me for the nature of those dimensions, plus the fact that a single universe doesn't encompass it.

And yes, they are higher spatial dimensions, unless you believe the dimensions mentioned in Dreams are different than the ones in Through tha Gates, which I don't know how you would without declaring either non canon. Which is it? Are they High 1-B or not?

They aren't the same, dude...

Indefinite simply means unknown, it doesn't contradict there being infinite dimensions, which we know exist thanks to Through the Gates.

Unless showed that indefinite means infinite in the context, yes, it contradicts everything. Also, I already explained the properties of said dimensions (which you never quoted to make counter arguments).

I also feel the term "universe" can be misleading. It would be more accurate to say that the continua can be infinite dimensional.

Quoting...:

• Every universe is High 1-B because individual space-times extend infinitely in all dimensioned directions, are all infinite-dimensional, and higher dimensions have a definite qualitative superiority over lower dimensions; an infinite chain of such universes exists.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Following. Neutral on this, though I think a downgrade for this verse is necessary.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I don't think the staff who upgraded the mythos to 0 are even on the site anymore. Shame that they can't be here to present counterarguments.

 

[Robo432343]

whoever made the cosmology blog for this verse should get asked to comment

 

[Tarang123]

As a slightly unrelated (but relevant) question, I've heard people say that there are scans saying that dimensionality ends at the gates. If that is truly the case, then them capping off at 1B is a bit...weird, to say the least.

 

[Nostredam]

As a slightly unrelated (but relevant) question, I've heard people say that there are scans saying that dimensionality ends at the gates. If that is truly the case, then them capping off at 1B is a bit...weird, to say the least.

Dimensionality ends at the Ultimate Gate, which is High 1-B. The 1-B ones are the manifestations of the archetypal infinity, since they reside in finite dimensions.

 

[Tarang123]

Dimensionality ends at the Ultimate Gate, which is High 1-B. The 1-B ones are the manifestations of the archetypal infinity, since they reside in finite dimensions.

Idk, I saw that they capped off at the gates. Are there scans that go against this?

 

[Nostredam]

Idk, I saw that they capped off at the gates. Are there scans that go against this?

I should first analyze the quotes that supposedly assert what you're saying in the first place.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Gotta disagree

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I ain't a CM fan, but I heavily suggest for people who aren't knowledgable to stay neutral, at least until proper counterarguments from supporters would be provided.

 

[Lewis]

I haven't seen staff into the debate.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

I'll probably give my thoughts in a little bit but it would be cool if more of the people listed on the knowledgeable members section were active for CRTs like this, because that would definitely make things run a lot smoother. Regardless like NothingtoDebateWith said, I think more people should stay neutral until the thread really gets rolling because of all of the nuances with CM.

 

[Tarang123]

I should first analyze the quotes that supposedly assert what you're saying in the first place.

These were the scans

 

[Nostredam]

These were the scans

I don't see anything in those quotes that actually change what is being proposed on this thread (rantings, mostly).

 

[Tarang123]

I don't see anything in those quotes that actually change what is being proposed on this thread (rantings, mostly).

It says that all dimensions dissolve at the gates and stuff. It seems a bit weird for that to just include 4D space-times imo

 

[DaReaperMan]