Bleach Calculation Flaws and God-Tier Scaling removal

[RavenSupreme]

I see, you didn't follow the discussion huh? Statements about Yhwach lifted the entire Wandenreich up to SK palace.

And as I said above if SK Palace is way smaller than Seireitei and Wandenreich, where does all the rocks and concrete go?

How about we try not to provoke others.

Your question at the bottom is moot btw, if we started questioning everything like that you'd have to answer how come the buildings are now kilometers tall and the characters dozens of meters tall going by the new scaling.

Granted, the last part is not how such scalings work tho. No character was really present in the panel and no building was totally visible or more than some pixels in drawing, hence they are not meant to be scaled or referred to in comparison to other panels. The buildings we later see need to be scaled individually.

 

[MachTwo]

How about we try not to provoke others.

Your question at the bottom is moot btw, if we started questioning everything like that you'd have to answer how come the buildings are now kilometers tall and the characters dozens of meters tall going by the new scaling.

What?

Did you read what I said above about visual proof or not?

 

[Damage3245]

Granted, the last part is not how such scalings work tho. No character was really present in the panel and no building was totally visible or more than some pixels in drawing, hence they are not meant to be scaled or referred to in comparison to other panels. The buildings we later see need to be scaled individually.

The thickness of the circular discs in the Royal Palace is present though.

And we can see how that compared to characters in many other panels later on.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The thickness of the disc changes, as well as the length of the walkways.

You give Kubo too much credit thinking any two panels are consistent. Which is why Raven only used one scan.

I guess we're waiting on the Calc Group's discussion then I assume?

 

[RavenSupreme]

The thickness of the circular discs in the Royal Palace is present though.

And we can see how that compared to characters in many other panels later on.

Are you referring to this?

https://i.imgur.com/XPeehSD.png

The red dot for the edge of the platform.

 

[Damage3245]

Yes. Even if we don't go with the slightly-visible buildings on that one panel you've linked, we can see how the thickness of the discs compares to the buildings and characters in other panels.

Limiting the amount of artistic mistakes by only using a single panel is still creating a problem in that the assumption of the diameter of Seireitei to the diameter of the Royal Palace doesn't match up according to any later visuals, or any statements from the characters.

As such, I don't see how this assumption isn't creating more problems than it solves.

 

[MachTwo]

>If we gathered a list of all the visuals of the Royal Palace, then it can be shown be to be consistantly smaller than the Seireitei.
We have gathered all Statements who said otherwise and linked it above.

Plus Im fairy sure we go with Statements over visuals for Seireitei and Las Noches, So why now we do the otherwise for SK Palace?

>That's sort of the point. If there isn't huge amounts of missing rocks and concrete, then a possible explanation is that the feat of 'lifting the Wandenreich' was smaller and less impressive than it currently sounds.

I see, once again you didn't follow the discussion huh? As I said above all of the Quincy Building in Seireitei is missing, you can see it yourself in Yhwach vs Aizen and Ichigo Fight, add that proof and Statements who said Yhwach has lifted the entire Wandenreich up to SK palace and we can be sure that SK Palace is roughly at the same size with Seireitei

.

 

[Andytrenom]

Leaving aside the rest of the discussion, I can't stress enough how much I agree with Raven in regards to the pixel scaling issue.

Buildings not appearing to be their correct size when scaled to a country/city/whatever is much more likely to be a human limitation in how accurately someone can convey the scale of something rather than a sign of the city/country's size being inaccurate.

Keep in mind, this is more of a general statement from me rather than me trying to argue against the Palace size downgrade specifically. I'm not interested in Bleach but I also don't want revisions for it to be based on faulty logic.

 

[Damage3245]

@MachTwo, forgive me for missing it but where is this list of statements for the remade Royal Palace's size?

 

[MachTwo]

Read Imade post with Diagram thing, and read the second paragraph in my post above.

 

[MachTwo]

>Yhwach Lifted Wandenreich up to SK palace

>All of the Quincy Building in Seireitei is missing

>But somehow SK Palace is 1000 times smaller than Seireitei and Wandenreich

Thus I ask a question, where does all the rocks and concrete go?

 

[Damage3245]

IMade's post contains no statements regarding the size.

It just re-iterates the assumption that the Royal Palace is as big as the Wandenreich / Seireitei.

As for this:

> Plus Im fairy sure we go with Statements over visuals for Seireitei and Las Noches, So why now we do the otherwise for SK Palace?

We have no statements at all for the size of the remade Royal Palace (other than them calling its pieces as cities/towns). So what statements would we go on over visuals?

> Thus I ask a question, where does all the rocks and concrete go?

Simple answer; there are less rocks and concrete being lifted up than currently assumed. Likely because only the buildings being lifted up were the ones within visual range of the Shinigami.

We don't see anything being lifted up tens or hundreds of kilometers away from them.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

There are no statements for the Royal Palace beyond that each floating disc contains cities.

The visuals are quite inconsistent and contradicting as well since we have Oetsu's disc containing an ocean on it, the disc being visible from 3927 kilometers away a couple times, views where the thickness is comparable to buildings.

 

[Damage3245]

I think what she means is that each floating disc has a city on it.

There are five floating discs, making up five cities - each of which are given to one of the five Royal Guard.

As for Oetsu's disc, we've seen this his little shack can contain a huge room within it. It's possible some pocket dimensional shenanigans are going on, or possibly his 'ocean' is a lot smaller than the name would suggest.

 

[MachTwo]

>We have no statements at all for the size of the remade Royal Palace (other than them calling its pieces as cities/towns). So what statements would we go on over visuals?

Because based on all the statement with Wandenreich Size and how Wandenreich is equal In size with Seireiteiand direct statement who said Yhwach has Lifted all of Wandenreich to SK Palace with have been back up by proof that No Quincy building lelf in the Seireitei after Yhwach Lifted Wandenreich, indicated that Yhwach has lifted whole Wandenreich into SK Palace

So thanks to all the statement and scans above, we can be sure that SK Palace is roughly at the same size with Seireitei or else where does all the rocks and concrete go?

 

[AppleLord]

IMade's posted a lot of scans where the scientific team stated that Seireitei dissapeared, and the Quincy said it was replaced by Wandenreich. Kubo also draws a sketch of the new Wandenreich with the Quincy symbol over the dome. The Seireitei and Wandenreich were swapped from place. I agree with Raven and IMade's posts.

 

[Damage3245]

MachTwo; two possible answers to that.

1) Seireitei (and therefore the Wandenreich) is smaller than we assumed. I know this option isn't liked, so I'll ignore it.

2) There is less cityscape in the Wandenreich than we assumed. Perhaps the whole of the Wandenreich is just as huge as the Seireitei, sure, and it's massive, but the city portion of it that ended up being lifted by Yhwach is small compared to the overall country.

 

[MachTwo]

>There is less cityscape in the Wandenreich than we assumed

Nope, because Wandenreich has replaced all of the Seireitei and so far there is no visual who shows that Wandenreich is covered by forests and mountains, all visuals shows that Wandenreich is a Giant City filled with Quincy buildings.

So essentially you just use baseless assumptions to justify your belief.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Both things which are arbitrarily assumed for no reason other than inconsistent visuals invalidate everything else.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

No because Wandenreich isn't a mirror image of Seireitei (nothing ever says, that, again you are mistaken), they literally have different architecture and layout of buildings.

I can see your stance on disagreeing with the Royal Guard's size, but you realize the other method would further increase the calc's yield? Raven's method was done as a lowball.

Basically what I made said.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I think what she means is that each floating disc has a city on it. There are five floating discs, making up five cities - each of which are given to one of the five Royal Guard.

The she would have worded it as such: "Each tray has a city on it" not "Each of those trays have cities on them."

Her wording is explicitly saying each one has multiple cities.

As for Oetsu's disc, we've seen this his little shack can contain a huge room within it. It's possible some pocket dimensional shenanigans are going on, or possibly his 'ocean' is a lot smaller than the name would suggest.
That's not true, Oetsu's hut falls into the ground upon walking through the door. It's just carved into the cliff with a drop floor from the hut.

 

[Ovy7]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yhwach made the new SK Palace by fusing what he lifted from Seireitei with the old SK Palace. That SK Palace didn't only had the cities of the RG, there was also a huge city beneath all of them. Also, IIRC it was stated that the Seireitei walls are usually surounding the SK Palace and only come down when there's a need for them (like when Ichigo tried to sneak inside Seireitei at the beginning of the SS arc).

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't this a bit hypocritical? We can't use visuals to judge the size of the Royal Palace but we can use visuals to judge the size of the stalagmites underneath it?

 

[AppleLord]

The Wandenreich was created in a Shadow dimension with mostly every structure made of ice. Why would it have mountains and forest?

 

[Damage3245]

The Wandenreich was created in a Shadow dimension with mostly every structure made of ice. Why would it have mountains and forest?

IMade already pointed out my mistake with that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

For near every pixel scaling we do for every series we find several other panels from that same series or sometimes from the same panel which would technically debunk our findings going by a pure technical approach.

I decided to use a single double spread panel to scale everything, seeing how I was under the impression that we as a community agree that it is the most reliable way of finding scalings since while inconsistencies in the Art are always present and everywhere, in a single panel scaling they are all in one place and allow us to distinguish between important foreground and background additions which are not meant to be portraied 1:1 but as an indicator of what the author intended to convey.

Actually... Bleach is the only series on the entire wiki where statements are treated as more valid than pixel scaling. Every other series uses pixel scaling regardless of art inconsistencies and authorial intent.

Also I think statements and visuals can easily be reconciled if we make a distinction between Seireitei as a whole containing forests and mountains, and the cityscape at the center of Seireitei.

Just like cities in the real world have rural areas around the urban center which are technically still part of the city's territory

 

[TataHakai]

Also it's not even just other panels that debunk it being that big, the literal panel used in the calc even debunks it being that big so it's not even a consistency issue, it's just NEVER portrayed to be that big across the dozens of times we see it.

And we have downgraded other verses due to inconsistent art, hell the leaf village size in Naruto was like 250 kilometers at one point due to the forest of death statement (and this was a case where the literal size was given, not one gained by interchangeable variables) but it was downgraded because at times the leaf didn't look that big

Just saying bleach seems to constantly be getting a Schrodinger's Kubo and special treatment in relation to the way we do things around here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It doesn't seem to get special treatement, it absolutely does. Bleach seems to exist inside a pocket reality isolated from the rest of the wider Vsbattleswiki, and often ignores things which are done for every other verse.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Can we not bring Naruto into this please? Bleach fans are scolded for bringing up Naruto, lets not be hypocritical here.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Konoha's size wasn't downgraded due to the Forest of Death statement inconsistency, it's that we can't confirm that the bushy area in the corner of the aerial view was the Forest of Death. The map of the FoD doesn't tell us that the bushy area in the corner is the FoD.

 

[TataHakai]

There's literally nothing else it can be

And actually it was, if i recall correctly Kep and someone else had a very long discussion about how the leaf couldn't be that size because of the hokage statues

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not hypocrisy, you missed the whole point of bringing it up. If memory serves, the forest of death was stated to be like 20 km across in a panel that showed a diagram of it next to the Leaf Village, and using scaling on that single panel we'd get a 250 km wide Leaf Village.

That is vastly more direct and specific than the statement that it takes 10 days to cross Seireitei on foot. And accompanied by a literal map.

But nobody accepts it anymore. Why? Because literally every single scan of the Leaf Village contradicts the statement.

This is how it is with every single verse. We don't use the One-Punch Man Beefcake official height because literally every single panel contradicts it.

Asgard in Thor Ragnarok is stated to be a planet like 5 times. But just one look at it from any scene and you see that it's just a floating island.

But Bleach is exempt from this treatment.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Konoha's size wasn't downgraded due to the Forest of Death statement inconsistency, it's that we can't confirm that the bushy area in the corner of the aerial view was the Forest of Death. The map of the FoD doesn't tell us that the bushy area in the corner is the FoD.

It literally was. In the threads where the Konoha Size was being discussed, Kep brought it up as an example that his calculated size wasn't nearly as large as it could be. And when someone asked why he didn't use the statement, he responded that it was because the visuals contradicted it.

 

[AppleLord]

This is Kubo's own fault for not drawing backgrounds often and been lazy about it. Shimabukuro is an awesome artist that uses both statements and visuals. Love it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yusuke Murata is one of the most detailed and skilled artists in the whole Manga industry and even he makes inconsistencies. Kubo not having the most detailed art doesn't mean we can't use his art when he clearly puts effort in drawing two page spreads of the places.

 

[TataHakai]

It is, but we can't be inconsistent about the way we treat these bleach calcs

Picking and choosing which panels suit the needs of the verse is just as bad as cherry picking singular panels to lowball it.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

It's not hypocrisy, you missed the whole point of bringing it up. If memory serves, the forest of death was stated to be like 20 km across in a panel that showed a diagram of it next to the Leaf Village, and using scaling on that single panel we'd get a 250 km wide Leaf Village.

That's incorrect. The diagram of the Forest of Death doesn't show it by Konoha.

But nobody accepts it anymore. Why? Because literally every single scan of the Leaf Village contradicts the statement.
This is incorrect, the diagram of the Forest of Death is not stated to be the bushy area located in the upper right aerials beside Konoha.

What you're confusing here is confirmation. We don't have confirmation that the FoD is even by Konoha.

This is how it is with every single verse. We don't use the One-Punch Man Beefcake official height because literally every single panel contradicts it.
You could've checked this yourself.

Beefcake is High 7-C from a calc that uses his official height. Ironically enough, TataHakai made this calc as well.

Asgard in Thor Ragnarok is stated to be a planet like 5 times. But just one look at it from any scene and you see that it's just a floating island.
I don't recall any planet statements about Asgard beyond "It's another world", which isn't confirmation it's a planet. Also, being called a planet doesn't mean it's the size of say Earth. Planets are celestial bodies in space, which Asgard is.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Notice how no bleach supporters said anything about naruto...but we still get ignorant and unjustified claims in an attempt to bash the verse...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What you're confusing here is confirmation. We don't have confirmation that the FoD is even by Konoha.

We literally have.

Beefcake is High 7-C from a calc that uses his official height. Ironically enough, TataHakai made this calc as well.

He used to be 7-B via a pixel-scaling calc. Honestly it should go back to that because using the official height is frankly wrong.


I don't recall any planet statements about Asgard beyond "It's another world", which isn't confirmation it's a planet. Also, being called a planet doesn't mean it's the size of say Earth. Planets are celestial bodies in space, which Asgard is.

They talk about how Surtur would destroy a planet and how Asgard is a planet a good number of times.

But it's smaller than even planetoids and dwarf planets.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Notice how no bleach supporters said anything about naruto...but we still get ignorant and unjustified claims in an attempt to bash the verse...

Nobody is bashing the verse. Merely pointing out double standards and criticizing certain interpretations and calculations isn't bashing. Bleach isn't exempt from standards.