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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

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Very sorry for the delay everyone. I was dealing with personal matters for the moment as I told Reiner but I’ll begin responding to this now.

real quick


Lovemovies14 said:
Will the profiles be affected after this or is it still possible for them to get upgraded to Low 1-C
Click to expand...
Still possible. But anything related to scaling characters is being saved for another thread of mine. This one is just about the cosmology
 
ImmortalDread said:
My bad. Alright let's not derail.
Click to expand...
Ant said the thread has been concluded over what Donttalkdt decided over the thread, it's only Open for the one question kukui told he want to ask, if I can answer it, I'll, if not then it can't be helped. The thread has been concluded.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Doesn’t matter. He doesn’t own the franchise anymore. He isn’t acting in an official capacity.
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Does matter. At that time he and his Co writers still did own Ben 10 and I'm pretty sure he was still around in the 2016 reboot🤨 I'm more intrigued that you said Duncan doesn't own Ben 10 anymore since when?

Please define “Official Capacity." Because he is literally stating this on his account stating that their Central is on Twitter.
 
Reiner said:
Ant said the thread has been concluded over what Donttalkdt decided over the thread,
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Hold on. Where has this been said?

Because Efienctie was giving very adamant arguments and DontTalk has only said where he’s leaning at the moment.

This thread isn’t finished yet either way.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Even if, then it would still sound more like the collection of dimensions is infinite in size, rather than the number of dimensions being infinite.

Honestly, I really don't know. I feel like the best evidence of all those presented is Holiday's and I'm not sure if that's enough for a "possibly" for me.

I guess I might be leaning to a possibly being fine.
Click to expand...
Hmm. Given the ambivalent answer above, can each side provide the concrete evidence for their arguments, so I can notify DontTalk about it afterwards and he can make a final decision here, please?
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. Given the ambivalent answer above, can each side provide the concrete evidence for their arguments, so I can notify DontTalk about it afterwards and he can make a final decision here, please?
Click to expand...
Everything has been provided Ant, holiday statement, WOG and all, there was nothing more than it and nothing left after it and yet DT response was he is fine with possibly 2-A or either leaning, there is basically no reason or anything he said about him changing his opinion, he just said he is leaning towards 2A being fine, that's all to it, the thread was only decided to stay opened for evaluation, the discussion was already long done. There is nothing about the number of dimensions more on any side.
 
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This thread hasn't been determined though. Voting aside (since DT didn't pick a side yet, he said he is leaning towards one rather than being on one), We asked for a staff evaluation because the previous arguments between me and Reiner were circular at the time, so there was no use in going back and forth over stuff discussed to death.

New arguments since staff started coming to give their inputs have been made, new points that brings things into question. @DontTalk brought up points that were not in the previous discussion and @Eficiente, upon reading through the entire thread and looking at the provided blogs, literally argues against the idea of the universe even containing any dimensions at all and presented a lot of points against the evidence for it that we did not become aware of before.

A lot of new points have been made to be considered now, staff coming to weigh their opinions doesn't automatically mean these new points get negated and the thread becomes finished.
 
Yes, DontTalk did not provide a clear viewpoint here yet.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, DontTalk did not provide a clear viewpoint here yet.
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Ant, the very thing here in question was not that if universe contains more than one dimension or not. But if the Dimensions mentioned by doctor holiday are in-universe dimensions or not. You, me and everyone is aware of doctor holiday statement and @DontTalkDT is fine with those dimensions being considered inside universe but not sure if "infinite" was literal or flowery. That's all there is.

Now, OP is trying to strawman entire answer of DT as if he hasn't given any clear answer about anything at all. Which is not true. DT simply is not sure about "Infinite" taken literally or possibly, not about if those dimensions exist inside the universe or not.

Everything has been discussed, DT asked for whatever he wanted and we gave. DT gave the answer after analysing everything and each of our replies and this was his last reply. You can ask him about his answer once again but we don't have to go back to discussing these things again.
 
DontTalk was clearly very uncertain and needs more information to make a truly informed and conclusive decision. Instead of arguing with me about this issue, I would appreciate if you collaborate with my instructions instead. Thank you.
 
Okay, so im sorry for delaying comments here due to some personal matters. But here's where I still stand and the arguments for them.

Since everyone more or less, even @Maverick_Zero_X and @Eficiente, are okay with the general overall Multiverse being Possibly 2-A based off the Infinite Timestream statement (or solid 2-A, whichever one), im okay with moving on from this part of the discussion. But each individual universe being considered 2-A as well is still something im adamantly arguing against.

Now, I originally said in the beginning that the 2-B statement Ben made on Millions of Dimensions wasn't an issue. But while seeing the recent discussion, there is a problem now I have when taking a second look at it, and @Reiner basically mentioned it already.

From the comic, Doctor holiday statement was supported by Ben as well while running away in hurry, ben said to Rex, There are millions of dimensions, how did you find this earth?

The same statement and reason for why should Rex never be able to reach Ben's dimension given by Doctor holiday but just amount of dimensions mentioned is different in the comic and yes it's secondary canon as has been accepted already. From here it was accepted that universe has "2B, possibly 2A" as Ben could be throwing a random number to show how big the universe is (has been done in alot of fiction, such as crises of infinite earth's) as he was in too hurry unlike Doctor holiday who gave that statement calmly and based off calculation.
Click to expand...

Look at what I bolded out, since that is being put out there and I noticed it.

Why are we taking Ben's dimension statement as literal as it can be? That when he says there are millions of dimensions, we take that to mean there are literally a 2-B number of worlds? Even with assuming these dimensions are actually inside the universe (will make comments about this later below), this wouldn't make Ben's statement being as literal as it can be necessarily the case to take.

This was pretty much brought up before with other characters. Ben is not someone with cosmic awareness and doesn't have the knowledge or know-how of accurately knowing just how big existence is in scope. If Ben throwing out a random number is a likelyhood, especially since he was in a hurry to get out of a situation with Rex, what's preventing me from saying Ben saying "millions" is just a flowery way of him exaggerating and simply saying the universe just has a large number of dimensions? It would be one thing if a character who actually has a great understanding or scope of space-time stated this to make it passible, but that isn't the case here with Ben's statement.

This point, by the way, is going with the assumption that the universe actually contains these dimensions, something im going to talk more about below.

But later on Universe is infinite statement came from WOG as universe is ben 10 is more like a multiverse of dimensions and everytime universe has been mentioned in the series it had included the dimensions inside it considered together.
Click to expand...

Now that I saw what twitter response specifically was used to support 2-A Universes, even with it being allowed as acceptable evidence (something @DontTalkDT, @Eficiente and others here have already expressed doubt about allowing), the big problem with this being used as support is that it still uses a lot of assumptions, and takes the biggest one as the default one.

Like I mentioned earlier, the Ben 10 universe being cited infinite in the tweet doesn't need to automatically refer to the number of dimensions inside the universe being infinite. The strong likelyhood is that the tweet meant the universe itself is just infinite, just as the twitter question wrote out in the first place. Even with X number of dimensions inside the universe, it's still entirely possible to have a universe that's infinite in size (High 3-A) with a finite number of worlds contained within it too.

Not to mention that by taking the twitter tweet and using it under this context, you ALSO have to assume that when Duncan was asked this question about the universes size, he had this context of "the universe = number of dimensions inside the universe" when answering it, which is largely unproven and unable to be proven, making it another issue to add to this.

There are a number of possibilities as to what the tweet meant, but the ratings use the biggest interpretation of it granting 2-A number of dimensions that has little to no backing for that interpretation from the actual show.

Now getting to the reasons given for the universe containing dimensions in the first place. Like I said before, I originally didn't mind the universe containing more than 1 dimension, just that the number of dimensions inside the universe being infinite was the problem I had. However, @Eficiente recently gave a lot of critical points against this saying why we shouldn't be defaulting to this. I'll let his comments speak for themselves.

Eficiente said:
I have big issues with the reasoning used to claim that Ben's universe is more that 1 universe.

I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series).

When the universe clusters get detroyed and only No Watch Ben's universe cluster remains it doesn't mean that each universe has other dimensions, but that they were not targeted.

The idea of ignoring how Rex's universe is a universe because that's from his show and not said is the crossover when both are canon to each other doesn't make any level of sense at all, it's a universe, it doesn't have a Ben with a watch, wanna know why? Because both separated shows do their own things and that can create inconsistencies, the short version is just "it's an inconsistency". Things like beings being banished "from the universe itself" into Null Void explicitly mean that pocket dimension isn't in the universe, when we used an inconsistent technicality to claim otherwise, ignoring the other reason that makes that wrong. One thing is a verse being able to have 1 universe with many dimensions in it, another whole other thing is to make that up when it's not stated and is contradicted by those dimensions being outside the universe/time/space.

I'm sure some will think, if not necessarily say, that why doesn't the Space Beyond have other realities other than "our universe"-like universes, that if it shows those shouldn't it show everything? No. That's a headcanon, the place that has universes but in present tense can have whatever rules the writers felt like, non-"our universe"-like universes too can have whatever rules in terms of positioning/structure and what makes their names all not just "universe" if some are sometimes called that. It's not mandatory that if you are in some place that's the space between universes it has to also be the space between dimensions when there's any implied difference in value between univeres and dimension.
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
No reason that she refers to the universe rather than the multiverse. Also it refers to Ben's universe as a dimension even though right below you have the Null Void as an alt. dimension.



Well, this link doesn't work.



There are 2 ways to take this. 1) It's an inconsistency, as the Null Void is away from the universe, so Kevin got that wrong. 2) Due to being a pocket dimenison, Kevin thinks it to be inside the universe. Maybe it being away and inside the universe are accurate in different ways.



He is calling the Null Void a universe, it doesn't matter how it's the first time. Similar to it, you do take in dimension and universe to refer to Ben's universe, you should have no issue with this alt. dimension being called a universe too.



It exists between dimensions, no reason for it to be part of the known universe.



That's not a reasonable take from that at all, this wonder of the universe are this aliens that have this special ability, the dimensions they use isn't part of the universe.



Kevin in AF was aware of it in OV? Again Kevin was wrong in that same scene.



Again that's not a reasonable take from that at all. She only searched for his car in the universe, when she searched in that dimension she found it. That's how finding things you lost works, you find them where you didn't look for them before.



We don't know which parallel worlds he meant. Before you made a point on how the Null Void was never called a universe yet if Ben refers to it as a parallel world here then that may or may not make it similar to Rex's universe. Aside from assuming which dimensions he meant, "which are in-universe Dimensions in Ben 10" is not even something from the link and so you have no reason to say it.



Part of this is made up. The dimensional disruptor's function is found similar by Ben to the Null Void gun, which amounts to how he saw it do something vaguely similar, which amounts to nothing. "A device that is only capable of connecting in-universe dimensions" is made up, nowhere does it say so. Nowhere does "in-universe dimensions" ever appear, or how the range of the dimensional disruptor is limited.
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
An alt. dimension is separated from other dimensions, Ben's universe is a dimension by the series' rules. Yet it's claimed that they're in the same universe. The info used and not used is selective.



That comes out of nowhere, regular space means the Null Void's regular space, there is no such thing as an inter-dimensional realm. The Null Void's regular space is either the odd-colored space character regularly walk in and breathe in, or a different outer space that's unlike that space, and is more regular. This proves nothing. Also the least of my issues but why would this card be canon?

Well, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kevin knew it by then. But I can believe that he did.



Is this a thing or you just say it?

The fact that she found the car in another dimension proves she has Interdimensional range in that, not that the dimension is part of the universe. Heck even by the cosmoligy you support she would still have Interdimensional range.

This is completely nonsensical, there is no "Occam's Razer" and "all this things has been referred as in-universe" here. The universe containing more than one dimension is the conclusion you grabbed in before knowing all the facts. Logic is enough evidence.

Looking into this those energy cores are things mostly in the universe, so if Max says that in the universe, he's correct, if Max says that in Anur phaetos, he's correct too, as all of them are destroyed in the universe, not mattering how the last one was destroyed outside of it. This is a meaningless thing to use as evidence when the other info we got on this place is that it's outside Ben's dimension/universe.

Ben finds the dimensional disruptor to be like the Null Void gun, to have Ben say this the thing simply has to be vaguely similar. That's all, they don't need to have as much of a limited range. This is very basic.

"A device that is only capable of connecting in-universe dimensions" is made up, as nowhere does it communicate any of that. "In-universe dimensions" was always made up, it never showed up anywhere. How the range of the dimensional disruptor is limited is stated nowhere.

I disagree with what you agree with, the accuracy of the numerous times this was dealt with before is challenged. I can work off all the info we have with no theories and then conclude how everything works, which just has what Kevin says there as an outlier, you need to have what you buy into already as a premise to justify everything and don't know the sheer amount of outliers it creates.
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
That is completely unreasonable, you need to say that because of what you buy into. In any other verse any random person would correctly affirm that a dimension and an alt. dimension aren't in the same dimension w/o dealing all these nonsensical standards.

Elaborate.

Well, that's vague.

That is completely unreasonable, you need to say that because of what you buy into. In any other verse any random person would correctly know that teleporting into another dimension is Interdimensional range and that this dimension is not in the regular universe.

Can't work with this.

There are 20 mcguffins across the universe, minus the last one which is in another dimension. You destroyed the last one but you don't know that, I confirm that you destroyed all the mcguffins in the universe. You don't need to find them anymore, your work is done. Doesn't mean all of them were in the universe.

Do we have a blog like the one I went over above?

Why would Kevin know this dimension?
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
No, I didn't. You can call any reality whatever you want, if you call one a universe and a dimension then they're both, but that's not the same as to say that all dimensions in the verse are universes, or even that all universe are universe-sized if proven otherwise. These rules are standard and working off what we know.

Ben's universe has been called a dimension. Null Void being an alt. dimension means it's alt./not-the-same from other dimensions like Ben's.

"In the dark belt of planets that gird the Null void from regular space, Anur Khufos is a world that is exists below the surface of perception."

"is grid to the regular space by anur system (a inter-dimensional realm) confirming nullvoid to be a part of the universe"

The text does not say that this planets are in an "inter-dimensional realm", or that they're "part of the universe", since you believe that you took that meaning from this. "Regular space" means either
  • A) The Null Void's odd-colored space characters regularly walk in and breathe in, the one we always see in the show (Hence regular space). Or
  • B) A different kind of space, an outer space that's more like regular space of the universe (Hence regular space).

That the info is vague, how did they all know and how is Kevin in on it?

You don't care about how the feat works on its own because of what you buy into. I don't need proof because the logic of the feat on its own makes it so they're in some dimension, not in their universe.

You're not even trying to be understandable.

Honestly if the few staff here weren't probably busy and there were more, some may comment on how you're being unreasonable on claiming to not understand certain things and how illogical it is things like claiming that dimensions need to mean universes in a verse if once 1 universe is called dimension.

No, you just say that oxymoron because of what you buy into, the quote just mean that all of them in the universe were destroyed, not that all of them were there, that one of them was outside is the exception rather than the rule.

Ok.

Can I see this?

That's made up. He could have gone to "the next dimension" and it wouldn't have mattered. Again the positioning can be anything, no amount of closeness makes a dimension appear in some higher realm where the rules are that only regular universes show up there. A dimensional wall can likewise have any rules, by your own logic if in a verse depending where you break it breaking 1 dimensional wall gets you to be in any universe of the multiverse then that means they're all close to each other, because they were 1 dimensional wall to each other, even though the more logical take is that the rules of the dimensional wall are that they let you travel anywhere by breaking just 1, regardless of the distance.

Didn't claim she has senses past the Space Beyond, the range is just Inderdimensional in both takes. This is nonsense as "her dimension" is her universe too, which means she is, in fact searching beyond the universe, yet the audacity still exists to claim that OV has this use of "universe" where it referst to the universe & more dimensions in it.

Take this info on its own w/o conclusions of what it all means at the end and this means the Null Void was called a universe. Just like in any other verse calling a dimension once a universe makes them a universe.
Click to expand...

Seeing these new points against the claim that the universe even contains any dimensions in the first place makes the arguments for them seem very shaky and are a mix of either not understanding how pocket dimensions can operate, misusing interchangeable terms like "universe" and "dimension", and/or other misinterpretations.

Of course, it would be best for @Eficiente to try coming back here to further explain these details himself when he has a moment to, but the given points stand nonetheless.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
From my understanding, the argument this thread is trying debunk is that,

there are infinite show universes (ben10 univers, generator rex universe etc.) and each of these show universes has infinite parallel dimensions?
Click to expand...
To better clarify, Ben 10 and Generator Rex are both canon to each other and are in the same singular verse, a multiverse.

The Ben 10 Multiverse, as it stands now, is considered a 2-A Multiverse. And that each individual universe inside this 2-A Multiverse is considered a 2-A macrocosm with infinite other dimensions inside themselves.

What my thread is arguing against is each individual universe being 2-A. The general multiverse of Ben 10 being at least "Possibly 2-A" was agreed to be fine, so I dropped that part of my argument. Whats being argued against now currently is each universe being 2-A.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
now the only question is, does ben 10’s characters scale to outside their macrocosm?
Click to expand...
Currently yes. But I have arguments against this that are being saved for another thread, so the character scaling right now doesn't matter. The topic is only about the Cosmology, not the character's tiers.
 
Thank you for helping out, Kukui. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

Are any of the rest of you willing to provide a counter-post that lists your arguments please?

@Firestorm808
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
If this is the case, then I still disagree with the downvote.

The woman's statement is well enough for "possibly 2-A".
Click to expand...
By the way, I forgot to respond to this point as I wanted to get my late response in asap.

Holiday's statement of infinite dimensions isn't used for the general multiverse being Possibly 2-A. Her statement is used to support the universes being 2-A Macrocosms.

And for plenty of reasons, as staff like @Maverick_Zero_X, @Everything12 and @DontTalkDT reiterated, her statement should be deemed unreliable as Holiday has displays of being an unreliable source to comment on how large existence is.
 
  1. Anur system an alternate dimension, interdimensional realm that exist inside the universe is blatant.
  2. Gwen ended up in legerdomain while searching up for Kevin's car in the entire universe.
  3. Kevin's statement, servantis statement and merchandise confirming nullvoid to be a part of the universe and more logical as multiverse wasn't established at this point.
  4. Dimension 12 for the same reason above.
  5. Rook stated that bladder dimension is one of many wonders of the universe.
  6. Rex dimension was context to similar dimensions such as legerdomain, nullvoid etc, to that it was accessed by device whose functioning is similar to that of nullvoid projector.
  7. Ben's statement of millions of dimensions that has the same context to it as of Doctor holiday.
  8. Doctor holiday calculated number of dimensions mathematically, so it is quite reliable of someone who is capable of even doing so, w/o knowledge she cannot calculate number of dimensions in the first place. So that's where it goes to possibly.
I don't think i can repeat myself more than this, @ProfessorKukui4Life start giving arguements against universe can contain more than one dimension or not, i think i should have ended it up far before.

Edit: i see, so the arguing/debate is not going to happen but we were literally just suppose to repeat ourselves and make DT repeat himself once again? Okay.
 
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And please for next time if you ever make a crt, make a proper one, after 5 pages I am being told to start from start.
 
Thank you for your explanation posts.

@DontTalkDT

Can you evaluate the following information please, so we can finally conclude this thread?



@Firestorm808 might also wish to provide a closing argument though.

Everybody let's wait for DontTalk instead of spamming this thread further with repetition please.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay, and who is Holiday?
Click to expand...

Just to answer this since you were asking Ant.

Shes a scientist from Generator Rex who researches Nanite technology from the series. In the Crossover with Ben 10, when Rex asks if he and Ben would ever cross paths again after Ben returns to his world, she makes a comment about how infinite dimensions would make it unlikely for them to ever cross paths again.

To quickly sum up all the issues I had with her comment, basically, Holiday shouldn't be considered a reliable source to take a statement like this from since:

1. She's not a character with cosmic awareness or with research done in the understanding of space-time and parallel worlds, so her word on this particular matter shouldn't be taken at 100% objective value

2. When Ben comments on how he travels to parallel worlds all the time and that he came from one, Holiday immediately dismissed him saying parallel worlds were only a theory, and a shaky theory at that. Thinking something is only theoretical means you don't know for sure if it actually exists or not. Initially doubting the existence of any parallel world in the first place, but then saying there are an infinite number of them, makes their word very doubtful at bare minimum.

3. Her method of coming to this conclusion was apparently math, which...more or less isn't ironclad evidence. No more than just taking any scientist character's word at face value just because "they're smart" when we don't default to that.

4. Holiday said the number of dimensions being infinite makes it unlikely that Rex and Ben would meet each other again, yet, they were able to encounter each other in the first place, showing it's possible to begin with.

The opposition in response to this tried giving some intelligence feats to help justify her knowledge on space-time and parallel worlds, half of which are either misinterpreted or have nothing to do with understanding this topic, but even despite that, her word being taken at absolute value despite the inconsistencies is an issue. @Maverick_Zero_X explained this well earlier.

Maverick_Zero_X said:
Regarding Dr. Holiday, I’d say her assertion that there are infinite dimensions is her speaking theoretically rather than taking it as 100% objective confirmation, as she lacks Cosmic Awareness or the means to deduce the full scope of the multiverse (evidenced by her not even knowing the multiverse was real prior to the crossover). Regardless of how “smart” she is, her initial ignorance of the multiverse’s existence does cast doubt on the claim that she randomly attained an ironclad answer of the multiverse’s scope. She was made aware that the multiverse exists due to the events of the crossover, but how would she know for certain that it’s infinite? And no, being a genius scientist isn’t enough to say she knows for certain how big existence is. Scientists are not omniscient and can be wrong, even in fiction (evidenced by how Dr. Holiday literally said something wrong in the crossover).
Click to expand...
 
I agree that it seems like a quite unreliable basis for a considerable upgrade taken on its own, and that she also likely referred to the Ben 10/Generator Rex multiverse as a whole.
 
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