Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

[Reiner04]

Them not having another kind of device has nothing to do with my point here.

It has, there's no other device to beyond this Dimension. Only one that can connect to Ben's Dimension and nullvoid.

The point is, the dimensional disruptors only feat of range is connecting to the Null Void. Why would this mean the other dimensions reside in the universe instead of just being a matter of it not having the range to go to other dimensions?

It's shown to connect Ben's dimension as well. Through this ben goes back to his dimension, not just nullvoid. And there is only one kind of device that can only connect in-universe dimensions. So why they would talk about infinite dimensions when they cannot even go there? There is no device at all.

Is the Null Void used as proof for this?

Nullvoid, Ben's dimension, Rex dimension are all the proofs. Done.

Generator Rex and Ben 10 are in the same verse, they are canon to each other. If Parallel Worlds is used as a term for timelines in one and then again in another for Rex's world, that applies to them both.

This was all freaking left. From now on disregard any context of all the hundreds of verses that uses the word dimension interchangeably. You don't have any proof that Dimensions/parallel world's in the crossover stands for universes, not even the single one, each time they have been used since Ben's arrival were referring to nullvoid, legerdomain, Dimension 12, Ben's dimension but you are bringing the episodes that has nothing to do with the crossover and ignoring the entire context??? Heck even those infinite dimensions statement includes in-universe dimensions. Don't go off assumptions. Stop bringing the episodes that has nothing to do with the entire crossover, show me it has referred to universes in the crossover, give proof don't assumptions.

So your assuming that any mentions of dimensions in the crossover, and only the crossover, are only talking about pocket dimensions because of only 2 particular examples?

My generalization is that all infinite dimensions are same kind of Dimensions that said in-universe dimensions supported by the fact that they cannot travel to another universe so doctor holiday won't talk about it, this is a generalization as any normal person would do or think.

What's your generalization?
assuming that from that "infinite dimensions statement" of Doctor holiday, some are referring to axiomatic dimensions, some are referring to universes, some are referring to in-universe dimensions? It's anything but normal and extraordinary claim.

 

[Aachintya31]

What does knowing about something that can mess with a single universe's space-time have anything to do with understanding how space-time works on a Multiversal scale?

Making their statements reliable even for multiversal scale.

And none of those scientists knew what the Meta-nanites could do, again they did not possess that knowledge beforehand, they discovered it AFTER they made nanites. And Holiday was not at all involved with the original Nanite project, nor was she involved in creating the Meta-Nanites.

They did know. All the nanites could do it. The meta nanites just programs the other nanites to tell them what to do.

This is absolute headcanon and completely ridiculous. You absolutely can create something with capabilities you didn't know prior about. Literally what?

They knew about the capabilites. See above. This was the plan of consortium, to exploit the powers of the nanites.

And as I said, parallel worlds being included had nothing to do with them needing to time travel, they are unrelated things. Time traveling is not traveling to a parallel universe.

Timestream contains parallel worlds. Knowing about it definitely grants knowledge about parallel world's existence.

I absolutely can. The character herself gutted her own credibility when denying the existence of a parallel universe, even with all of this so called "relevant" knowledge you mentioned that somehow lets her understand it. And use common sense. If it's hard for the theory to be proven by their point of view, that means they don't believe in the existence of parallel worlds being a fact.

Denying something prior and later stating something after gaining knowledge on that topic is what a scientist does.

And that said knowledge only allowed them to time travel.

With the same knowledge they later travelled to Ben's Dimension. Despite not believing in parallel worlds ,if she can do something after gaining knowledge about ,them stating the cosmology size is reliable.

A feat fro Caesar. Not Holiday.

Sheesh, Even caesar Didn't know about parallel worlds despite sending Alpha to the null void. Gaining knowledge and proposing things is what a scientist does.

Rex's universe is called a parallel world twice and Paradox confirms cross-time/timelines are parallel worlds.

And no, Paradox not being in the crossover is not a counter-argument. This is blatant case of the verse calling a timeline a parallel world, a term used in the crossover as well.

This is wrong. All of the dimensions including null void ,dagon's world existed before branching of the timestream. All those other ben universes came to life after ben received the omnitrix. This is the reason he is called Ben Prime. WOG even confirms this.

........Im not even going to entertain this nonsensical point.

Sure. Go check the site standards.

 

[Reiner04]

Getting a 2C universe is equally fictional as getting a 2A universe. If later has Dozens of evidences stacking above each other and context but counterargument is just baseless assumption, then why forcing it off? I don't understand.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It has, there's no other device to beyond this Dimension. Only one that can connect to Ben's Dimension and nullvoid.

Okay?

It's shown to connect Ben's dimension as well. Through this ben goes back to his dimension, not just nullvoid. And there is only one kind of device that can only connect in-universe dimensions.

Minor mistake then, but the question still remains.

What proves this isn't a matter of the Dimensional Disruptor not having the range to go to any other dimension besides Bens and the Nullvoids?

So why they would talk about infinite dimensions when they cannot even go there? There is no device at all.

The infinte statement is being argued against at the same time as this. Stop re-using what's also being argued is wrong.

And even with acknolweding it, the previous question on the disruptor not having the range for going to these other dimensions holds.

Nullvoid, Ben's dimension, Rex dimension are all the proofs. Done.

..................so your evidence on all of these dimensions inside the universe being universe sized is based on only 3 dimensions in particular being that large?

You don't have any proof that Dimensions/parallel world's in the crossover stands for universes, not even the single one, each time they have been used since Ben's arrival were referring to nullvoid, legerdomain, Dimension 12, Ben's dimension but you are bringing the episodes that has nothing to do with the crossover and ignoring the entire context???

What entire context? Your argument on the crossover only talking about pocket dimensions is being based on specific examples of these dimensions being accessed and using THAT to assume the same thing for all the rest, based on a statement that's also getting argued against as being just unreliable.

Heck even those infinite dimensions statement includes in-universe dimensions. Don't go off assumptions. Stop bringing the episodes that has nothing to do with the entire crossover, show me it has referred to universes in the crossover, give proof don't assumptions.

You are the one using headcanon here. The rest of the episodes in the series don't magically not have anything to do with the crossover just because it doesn't help prove what you are arguing.

The fact is, Generator Rex and Ben 10 are canon to each other and exist in the same verse. Parallel world has been used a term for Rex and Ben's dimensions. Parallel worlds has been used as a term by Paradox for timelines.

You are manipulating the terms so that theres this context of the crossover only speaking about pocket dimensions like the Null Void

My generalization is that all infinite dimensions are same kind of Dimensions as any normal person would do or think.

Yeah no, a normal person would not give such a grand assumption with little evidence. Either way, it doesn't matter.

If your argument entails that all of these dimensions are inside the universe because of only a few examples, then that has little support.

If your argument entails that all of these dimensions, even if inside the universe, are exactly the same size because of how 3 are depicted, this is massive assumption.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Making their statements reliable even for multiversal scale.

You didn't answer the question.

They did know. All the nanites could do it. The meta nanites just programs the other nanites to tell them what to do.

This is, again, headcanon and you making stuff up. They didn't know at all. They only discovered this after discovering the Dominion code. And they did not know of the Dominion code until long after inventing the nanites.

They knew about the capabilites. See above. This was the plan of consortium, to exploit the powers of the nanites.

They didn't know. See above.

Timestream contains parallel worlds. Knowing about it definitely grants knowledge about parallel world's existence.

Prove they specifically knew about that aspect of the timestream please. Because you don't need to study parallel worlds to travel to a different time period.

Literally what the **** is this?

Denying something prior and later stating something after gaining knowledge on that topic is what a scientist does.

And that doesn't matter as its not evidence that they are claiming something thats 100% factual. You need more evidence than them "changng their mind".

With the same knowledge they later travelled to Ben's Dimension.

After this episodes crossover, so irrelevant.

Despite not believing in parallel worlds ,if she can do something after gaining knowledge about ,them stating the cosmology size is reliable.

A group effort is not a feat for Holiday, and this still doesn't defeat my argument. Initial doubt and disbelief is still a knock against her word being able to be taken ad 100% factual.

Just because YOU believe it doesnt prove she's right.

Sheesh, Even caesar Didn't know about parallel worlds despite sending Alpha to the null void.

Which is a pocket dimension. And even then, this is still a feat for Caesar and only him.

This is wrong. All of the dimensions including null void ,dagon's world existed before branching of the timestream. All those other ben universes came to life after ben received the omnitrix. This is the reason he is called Ben Prime. WOG even confirms this.

Nothing in that tweet says anything about what you just said.

And that still doesnt change the point here about manipulating interchanable terms.

Sure. Go check the site standards.

And I don't have to as nowhere in our standards is this written. It's common sense for a character to require intelligence feats on the specific subject for them to speak about that said subject.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

At this point, this is getting incredibly circular and is pointless to continue this without more staff evaluation into both sides.

I'll be requesting this thread to be locked so that staff members have a chance to read the replies without the thread growing from spam, then they can unlock it themselves to give their opinions and votes.

 

[Reiner04]

What proves this isn't a matter of the Dimensional Disruptor not having the range to go to any other dimension besides Bens and the Nullvoids?

Because Doctor holiday said Rex can never go to Ben's dimension because there are infinite of dimensions. If they had such a device that can connect Directly to Ben's dimension then why will she make that statement. Common sense?

The infinte statement is being argued against at the same time as this. Stop re-using what's also being argued is wrong.

What is being argued over it? Doctor holiday credibility? I don't care. I find her credible and so infinite dimensions exist, stop pushing the same button because you believe someone is credible and someone is not.

What proves this isn't a matter of the Dimensional Disruptor not having the range to go to any other dimension besides Bens and the Nullvoids?

My very first answer. Rex can go to Ben's dimension directly then and so holiday reason that Rex cannot go to Ben's dimension because of infinite dimensions doesn't makes sense.

..................so your evidence on all of these dimensions inside the universe being universe sized is based on only 3 dimensions in particular being that large?

Oh Damn god? Among those infinite dimensions, 3 dimensions are shown to be infinite in size. It takes more assumption to out cast a collection in which known Dimensions shown to have same properties.

What entire context? Your argument on the crossover only talking about pocket dimensions is being based on specific examples of these dimensions being accessed and using THAT to assume the same thing for all the rest, based on a statement that's also getting argued against as being just unreliable.

Just show me any statement in the crossover where Dimension or parallel world's has referred to universes just like I shown that they're only referring to in-universe dimensions. Stop using baseless premises and assumptions.

You are the one using headcanon here. The rest of the episodes in the series don't magically not have anything to do with the crossover just because it doesn't help prove what you are arguing.

Bear in mind who is doing what. Bringing things that happened in other episodes and has been used interchangeably not showing any proof but just arguing for the sake of arguing and using baseless assumptions to say that they may have been referring to universes when there is no mentioning universes in the entire crossover, only dimensions that are concerned are in-universe dimensions including Rex, ben and nullvoid. I don't freaking get your base of arguing but just telling me I am wrong and bringing unrelated episodes whatsover.

The fact is, Generator Rex and Ben 10 are canon to each other and exist in the same verse. Parallel world has been used a term for Rex and Ben's dimensions. Parallel worlds has been used as a term by Paradox for timelines.

Stop bringing episodes that has nothing to do with the crossover.

You are manipulating the terms so that theres this context of the crossover only speaking about pocket dimensions like the Null Void

Saying who? One who is being persistent with his headcanon and not bringing any evidences, created crt with no evidences whatsover and downplay each statement and context?

Yeah no, a normal person would not give such a grand assumption with little evidence. Either way, it doesn't matter.

If your argument entails that all of these dimensions are inside the universe because of only a few examples, then that has little support.

If your argument entails that all of these dimensions, even if inside the universe, are exactly the same size because of how 3 are depicted, this is massive assumption.

My generalization is that all infinite dimensions are same kind of Dimensions that said in-universe dimensions supported by the fact that they cannot travel to another universe so doctor holiday won't talk about it, this is a generalization as any normal person would do or think.

What's your generalization?
assuming that from that "infinite dimensions statement" of Doctor holiday, some are referring to axiomatic dimensions, some are referring to universes, some are referring to in-universe dimensions? It's anything but normal and extraordinary claim.

 

[Aachintya31]

This is, again, headcanon and you making stuff up. They didn't know at all. They only discovered this after discovering the Dominion code. And they did not know of the Dominion code until long after inventing the nanites.

Not Headcanon. The nanites do it. The meta nanites programs the other nanites what to do.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't know who will evaluate this crt and have knowledge in the verse to do or not, but the amount of off assumptions and headcanon this guy is using is ridiculous.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not Headcanon. The nanites do it. The meta nanites programs the other nanites what to do.

The video you linked is literally talking about the Meta Nanites..................

Because Doctor holiday said Rex can never go to Ben's dimension because there are infinite of dimensions. If they had such a device that can connect Directly to Ben's dimension then why will she make that statement. Common sense?

You're only confirming what I asked. If there are too many dimensions, that means the disruptor specifically doesn't have the range to go to Ben's dimension.

What is being argued over it? Doctor holiday credibility? I don't care. I find her credible and so infinite dimensions exist, stop pushing the same button because you believe someone is credible and someone is not.

This is how a basic debate works. You're relying on evidence thats used to prove something else. When both are put into question, you need MORE evidence to substantiate your case.

Or argue in defense of the former.

My very first answer. Rex can go to Ben's dimension directly then and so holiday reason that Rex cannot go to Ben's dimension because of infinite dimensions doesn't makes sense.

And see above on my answer that the disruptor can very simply lack the range as it cannot go through these other dimensions.

Oh Damn god? Among those infinite dimensions, 3 dimensions are shown to be infinite in size.

One of them, the Null Void. And im arguing against the evidence for that too.

What evidence is there for Ben and Rex's dimension being infinite in scope? And if you say because they're considered the same kind of dimension, that is weak evidence and

It takes more assumption to our cast a collection in which known Dimensions shown to have same properties.

Absolutely not. The bigger interpretation, this positive claim of every single one of these dimensions being the same size, needs evidence proving that. You can't just assume they are because 1 or a couple were given evidence.

Im finished responding to this until staff come to evaluate this.

 

[Reiner04]

You're only confirming what I asked. If there are too many dimensions, that means the disruptor specifically doesn't have the range to go to Ben's dimension.

Disruptor literally sent ben to his dimension what are you even talking about at this point?

This is how a basic debate works. You're relying on evidence thats used to prove something else. When both are put into question, you need MORE evidence to substantiate your case.

Or argue in defense of the former.

I have given enough. Being denial and persistent to not accept anything that exist is definitely not how debates works. I've done hundreds of debates by now but never saw such a ridiculous arguements as you are using.

And see above on my answer that the disruptor can very simply lack the range as it cannot go through these other dimensions.

And still can connect infinite dimensions? Yeah.

One of them, the Null Void. And im arguing against the evidence for that too.

Who agreed for the nullvoid till now?

What evidence is there for Ben and Rex's dimension being infinite in scope? And if you say because they're considered the same kind of dimension, that is weak evidence and

Literally our standards dammit.

Absolutely not. The bigger interpretation, this positive claim of every single one of these dimensions being the same size, needs evidence proving that. You can't just assume they are because 1 or a couple were given evidence.

My generalization is that all infinite dimensions are same kind of Dimensions that said in-universe dimensions supported by the fact that they cannot travel to another universe so doctor holiday won't talk about it, this is a generalization as any normal person would do or think.

What's your generalization?
assuming that from that "infinite dimensions statement" of Doctor holiday, some are referring to axiomatic dimensions, some are referring to universes, some are referring to in-universe dimensions? It's anything but normal and extraordinary claim

 

[Aachintya31]

Nothing in that tweet says anything about what you just said.

The tweet basically says Rex is not an alternate timeline a.ka cross-time to Ben's timeline, which goes along with what the show presents.

And that still doesnt change the point here about manipulating interchanable terms.

Tho in a sense its fair, but even professor paradox differentiates the terms there are many dimensions ,many universes, many earths and show even presents it in that way.

You didn't answer the question.

its regarding reliability and not something "a universal character can't destroy a multiverse." a character who has shown universal space-time knowledge can indeed be taken reliable for multiversal space-time.

And that doesn't matter as its not evidence that they are claiming something thats 100% factual. You need more evidence than them "changng their mind".Im finished responding to this until staff come to evaluate this.

Fairly, i'll leave it upto the moderators.

 

[Reiner04]

I'll also leave it to moderators as well, regardless of result, whoever, regular member or any mod who knows the verse, read this crt and each replies and how ridiculous the arguements are. If this can get accepted with these arguments then only a miracle can upgrade this verse. I will not even put my mind into this shit anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that this thread has been filled with lots of spam and that I should temporarily lock it so @DontTalkDT , @Qawsedf234 , @Everything12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Sir_Ovens , @Eficiente , and @AKM sama can get the chance to evaluate the first post within it combined with @Firestorm808's explanation post for the counter-arguments. Should I do so?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5387716

 

[Reiner04]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5385069

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-1...s-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5385087

These 2 were the reason my crt got accepted so, it'll be better to read them as well. Regardless reading the entire crt is more better.

 

[Aachintya31]

Should I do so?

yes

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disruptor literally sent ben to his dimension what are you even talking about at this point?

You literally just said Rex wouldn't be able to use the disruptor to go to Bens dimension because of Holidays statement. How was it able to work the first time and then not after that?

I have given enough. Being denial and persistent to not accept anything that exist is definitely not how debates works. I've done hundreds of debates by now but never saw such a ridiculous arguements as you are using.

And can say the same back to you. Relying on one evidence, when that evidence is being questioned at the same time, does not help you.

Who agreed for the nullvoid till now?

What happened before doesnt matter. I was not present for hat revision, I didn't see this evidence until now. So im questioning it here and now.

Literally our standards dammit.

I dont know what standards you think we have then, but this definitely isnt the case. And im not budging on this until others correct me on this or explain

I was told that this thread has been filled with lots of spam and that I should temporarily lock it so @DontTalkDT , @Qawsedf234 , @Everything12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Sir_Ovens , @Eficiente , and @AKM sama can get the chance to evaluate the first post within it combined with @Firestorm808's explanation post for the counter-arguments. Should I do so?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5387716

Yes

 

[Reiner04]

You literally just said Rex wouldn't be able to use the disruptor to go to Bens dimension because of Holidays statement. How was it able to work the first time and then not after that?

Because it needs common sense to understand. There are infinite dimensions as Holiday states. How does he know where to go?

2- check the universe standard page. It's right there.

And not even replying to anything else they are same repeated arguements with baseless assumptions.

This thread can be locked.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because it needs common sense to understand. There are infinite dimensions as Holiday states. How does he know where to go?

So this returns to my previous question. Why did it work the first time then?

2- check the universe standard page. It's right there.

If you are talking about this note on the Universe page:

If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.

I very highly doubt this is allowed for an entire collection of universes that is supposedly infinite, and only based on one evidence of one of these worlds being a universe, which comes from a statement, that is being argued against here as well. The Null Void is also not at all depicted the same as worlds like Rexs, Bens or the Ledgerdomain.

But this i'll wait to comment on this and ask about it later once staff come to evaluate this.

 

[Reiner04]

Why did it work the first time then?

Why cares? It worked 1St time and will not always? This is not a argument at all. Doctor holiday said you both can't meet again as with infinite dimensions the maths doesn't work in favour always. That's all, it's a matter of favourable condition.

I very highly doubt this is allowed for an entire collection of universes that is supposedly infinite,

It is definitely allowed, these are our standards.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why cares? It worked 1St time and will not always? This is not a argument at all.

It actually is. Holiday claimed infinite dimensions will prevent them from meeting again, yet the disruptor successfully connected to Bens dimension the first time.

So she was proven wrong about what she said about it.

Doctor holiday said you both can't meet again as with infinite dimensions the maths doesn't work in favour always. That's all, it's a matter of favourable condition.

This is headcanon and wasn't what she said. She said the math wasn't in his favor, nothing about "always" or anything like this. Your twisting the context of what was actually said.

The fact the disruptor did the very thing she said couldn't happen is another proof of this being incorrect.

It is definitely allowed, these are our standards.

Then I will ask staff when they get here to look at this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I was told that this thread has been filled with lots of spam and that I should temporarily lock it so @DontTalkDT , @Qawsedf234 , @Everything12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Sir_Ovens , @Eficiente , and @AKM sama can get the chance to evaluate the first post within it combined with @Firestorm808's explanation post for the counter-arguments. Should I do so?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5387716

You can close this for now Ant.

 

[Reiner04]

So she was proven wrong about what she said about it.

Shut the nitpicking. It's fiction, ben had to go for his dimensions, we have to keep watching him, it's fiction my guy. Even impossible things are bound to happen. We don't nitpick it, but take it as it is.

And don't reply me any further, don't want to sound rude but your arguments are worthless and nitpicking if anything.

 

[Greenshifter]

I was told that this thread has been filled with lots of spam and that I should temporarily lock it so @DontTalkDT , @Qawsedf234 , @Everything12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Sir_Ovens , @Eficiente , and @AKM sama can get the chance to evaluate the first post within it combined with @Firestorm808's explanation post for the counter-arguments. Should I do so?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5387716

I doubt that Firestorm posted an explanation post for the counter-arguments. He merely summarized why the upgrade happened in the first place, I'm sure Reiner can make a summary of the counter-arguments though.

 

[omegabronic]

whatever happens after, can everyone chill please?

 

[Antvasima]

I will temporarily close this thread then. I would greatly appreciate evaluation help from the staff members that I called for above.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I was asked to give further input in light of the thread’s responses.

(TL;DR - I still disagree with individual Universes being 2-A as I find the evidence for this extraordinary claim to be lacking and built on assumptions. The overall Multiverse being 2-A, while non-definitive for reasons the OP pointed out, is feasible based on the Infinite Timestream statement, thus warranting a “Possibly” rating in my view. I also think Dr. Holiday’s claim at the end of the crossover can work as supporting evidence for the multiverse’s size, albeit I’ll explain why I find it to be shaky by itself)

After reading the whole thread I’m still not on board with the universe being a 2-A structure, and do not see the Twitter questions as viable given that some conflict with each other, which to my understanding means information from the actual series itself should be prioritized. An explicit statement (not assumptions) from the series that the infinite dimensions are part of the prime universe was not given, so it doesn’t seem the burden of proof was fulfilled on that front.

Regarding Dr. Holiday, I’d say her assertion that there are infinite dimensions is her speaking theoretically rather than taking it as 100% objective confirmation, as she lacks Cosmic Awareness or the means to deduce the full scope of the multiverse (evidenced by her not even knowing the multiverse was real prior to the crossover). Regardless of how “smart” she is, her initial ignorance of the multiverse’s existence does cast doubt on the claim that she randomly attained an ironclad answer of the multiverse’s scope. She was made aware that the multiverse exists due to the events of the crossover, but how would she know for certain that it’s infinite? And no, being a genius scientist isn’t enough to say she knows for certain how big existence is. Scientists are not omniscient and can be wrong, even in fiction (evidenced by how Dr. Holiday literally said something wrong in the crossover).

Regardless, Dr. Holiday’s theorizing could be feasibly corroborated with the infinite timestream statement, which is why I’d support a Possibly rating.

 

[Firestorm808]

I was asked to give further input in light of the thread’s responses.

(TL;DR - I still disagree with individual Universes being 2-A as I find the evidence for this extraordinary claim to be lacking and built on assumptions. The overall Multiverse being 2-A, while non-definitive for reasons the OP pointed out, is feasible based on the Infinite Timestream statement, thus warranting a “Possibly” rating in my view. I also think Dr. Holiday’s claim at the end of the crossover can work as supporting evidence for the multiverse’s size, albeit I’ll explain why I find it to be shaky by itself)

After reading the whole thread I’m still not on board with the universe being a 2-A structure, and do not see the Twitter questions as viable given that some conflict with each other, which to my understanding means information from the actual series itself should be prioritized. An explicit statement (not assumptions) from the series that the infinite dimensions are part of the prime universe was not given, so it doesn’t seem the burden of proof was fulfilled on that front.

Regarding Dr. Holiday, I’d say her assertion that there are infinite dimensions is her speaking theoretically rather than taking it as 100% objective confirmation, as she lacks Cosmic Awareness or the means to deduce the full scope of the multiverse (evidenced by her not even knowing the multiverse was real prior to the crossover). Regardless of how “smart” she is, her initial ignorance of the multiverse’s existence does cast doubt on the claim that she randomly attained an ironclad answer of the multiverse’s scope. She was made aware that the multiverse exists due to the events of the crossover, but how would she know for certain that it’s infinite? And no, being a genius scientist isn’t enough to say she knows for certain how big existence is. Scientists are not omniscient and can be wrong, even in fiction (evidenced by how Dr. Holiday literally said something wrong in the crossover).

Regardless, Dr. Holiday’s theorizing could be feasibly corroborated with the infinite timestream statement, which is why I’d support a Possibly rating.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5387716

To clarify, the branching Universes and parallel dimensions in those universes are two different things.

It is akin to the currently accepted MCU Cosmology:

• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RoTt35/MCU_Cosmology
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/mcu-2-a-sacred-timeline-and-the-multiverse-cosmology-thread.145964/

With Paradox, we are shown that universes are a collection of space-time dimensions, and these universes branch off to infinity.

With Holiday, we are dealing with the space-time dimensions in the same universe cluster. Rex's, Ben's, and the Null Void, in the episode, are all in the same universe cluster.

Per Paradox, there is only one Universe Branch Cluster where there is no Omnitrix (See No Watch Ben).

Rex's world that we see doesn't count, as his universe cluster already has a Ben Prime with an Omnitrix. Every universe cluster has its own Ben, Rex, Dagon, Null Void, Legerdomain, and etc. The Aftermath of the CTB supports this: all other universe clusters with a Ben were destroyed, leaving only the No Watch Cluster.

Going back to Holiday, there are theoretically infinite dimensions, like Ben's, Rex's, and the Null Void Dimension, that are within the same Universe Cluster. This is the context the episode uses, not branching universe clusters.

In summary, the primary source material alone supports an At least 2-C, possibly 2-A Universe Cluster, and 2-A total Clusters.

The accepted secondary canon of the comic confirmed the At least 2-B, possibly 2-A Universe Cluster.

The accepted corroborated writer's statements were used to confirm the 2-A Universe Cluster theory by Holiday and support 2-A total Clusters.

Is there anything else you need to be answered or clarified?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Firestorm makes sense to me.

 

[Firestorm808]

Firestorm makes sense to me.

Thank you for your time and input.

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that this thread has been filled with lots of spam and that I should temporarily lock it so @DontTalkDT , @Qawsedf234 , @Everything12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Sir_Ovens , @Eficiente , and @AKM sama can get the chance to evaluate the first post within it combined with @Firestorm808's explanation post for the counter-arguments. Should I do so?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5387716

@Reiner asked me to call for the following staff members as well:

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Reading through it, I my thoughts are more or less the same as last time. I think Firestorm and Reiner are the ones making more sense here and most people disagreeing with the Tier 1 cosmology are mostly misunderstanding with what is being suggested. Based on what is shared, a lot of statements are talking about respective dimensions and not universes containing dimensions. And simply being a "Pocket dimension" doesn't lock its size as being less than Low 2-C or less than High 3-A as terms can be case by case. It's possible for "Universes" and even "Cities" to actually be 1-A sized if the context and internal text lines up as such.

Plus, in the void and based on things Ultima said in other conversations, being in a realm that perceives entire Tier 2 sized structures as tiny stars in the sky was the reason for a Low 1-C existence, not a simple generic "It contains 2-A sized structures inside it" that would more or less indicate being above baseline 2-A rather than Low 1-C. It's also pretty self evident that Ultima doesn't really want to get involved in any Tier 1 debates he's not interested in, but Reiner and Firestorm have shared the actual explanations for a Low 1-C existence.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I won’t comment too much since this the time for staff to evaluate the thread before we continue, but there is something I want to ask now that staff are giving clarification on some of the standards

Based on what is shared, a lot of statements are talking about respective dimensions and not universes containing dimensions. And simply being a "Pocket dimension" doesn't lock its size as being less than Low 2-C or less than High 3-A as terms can be case by case. It's possible for "Universes" and even "Cities" to actually be 1-A sized if the context and internal text lines up as such.

About this specifically, if it is true that a pocket dimension is able to be considered the size of a regular universe and whatnot on case by case basis’s, would there need to be sufficient evidence from the series in particular to prove that is the case to begin with?

I can understand the idea of this now, but part of the problem here with this is that the only evidence for pocket dimensions, like the Null Void, comes from a statement rather than an actual depiction.

And my issue with the statement is that the highest interpretation of it is being taken without that having, as I argued, sufficient evidence backing that interpretation being the most likeliest compared to other possibilities.

 

[Firestorm808]

Reading through it, I my thoughts are more or less the same as last time. I think Firestorm and Reiner are the ones making more sense here and most people disagreeing with the Tier 1 cosmology are mostly misunderstanding with what is being suggested. Based on what is shared, a lot of statements are talking about respective dimensions and not universes containing dimensions. And simply being a "Pocket dimension" doesn't lock its size as being less than Low 2-C or less than High 3-A as terms can be case by case. It's possible for "Universes" and even "Cities" to actually be 1-A sized if the context and internal text lines up as such.

Plus, in the void and based on things Ultima said in other conversations, being in a realm that perceives entire Tier 2 sized structures as tiny stars in the sky was the reason for a Low 1-C existence, not a simple generic "It contains 2-A sized structures inside it" that would more or less indicate being above baseline 2-A rather than Low 1-C. It's also pretty self evident that Ultima doesn't really want to get involved in any Tier 1 debates he's not interested in, but Reiner and Firestorm have shared the actual explanations for a Low 1-C existence.

Thank you for your time and input.

 

[Reiner04]

About this specifically, if it is true that a pocket dimension is able to be considered the size of a regular universe and whatnot on case by case basis’s, would there need to be sufficient evidence from the series in particular to prove that is the case to begin with?

A direct statement of it being infinite by the novel? Max confirming that nullvoid goes on forever in the series? What else do you need?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A direct statement of it being infinite by the novel? Max confirming that nullvoid goes on forever in the series? What else do you need?

Those evidences and how they’re used have holes in them as was argued earlier in this thread.

Im asking for staff opinion on what they think of this.

 

[Reiner04]

Those evidences and how they’re used have holes in them as was argued earlier in this thread.

Holes in them means your headcanon of pocket dimension cannot be infinite?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Holes in them means your headcanon of pocket dimension cannot be infinite?

Whatever. Regardless, I want DarkMedus and/or other staff members to give their opinions on this.

 

[omegabronic]

just a reminder that now is the time for staff opinion so we don't have back and forth again, wait until all the required staff give their opinion and then maybe speak your points again, we don't need this thread to become unnecessarily longer than what it is right now

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

just a reminder that now is the time for staff opinion so we don't have back and forth again, wait until all the required staff give their opinion and then maybe speak your points again, we don't need this thread to become unnecessarily longer than what it is right now

This^

To clarify again, this is why right now im keeping my responses to a minimum so that staff evaluations can continue

and my responses are only to ask staff questions about the standards, and the arguments here involving them, as they clarify them in their evaluations.