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Ben 10: Hypertimeline and Uncountable Branching Timelines

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Georredannea15 said:
No, not really. Lordgriffin said he agreed with the downgrade until he heard the counter arguments. Check the thread again pls.
Click to expand...
You claimed that there was an agreeing staff vote. That is explicitly not the case.

LordGriffin1000: "Finally, a thread regarding something about Tier 1 that my tiny brain can comprehend to some extent. Right now I'm leaning towards agreement and get the arguments regarding why it's 2-A but I will wait for counter arguments before i give my full vote."
 
Firestorm808 said:
You claimed that there was an agreeing staff vote. That is explicitly not the case.

LordGriffin1000: "Finally, a thread regarding something about Tier 1 that my tiny brain can comprehend to some extent. Right now I'm leaning towards agreement and get the arguments regarding why it's 2-A but I will wait for counter arguments before i give my full vote."
Click to expand...
He said he understood and agreed with the OP but was waiting for the counter-arguments to make a full decision yet and until the counter-arguments came in he's okay with 2-A.

And as I said, what we are doing now is waiting for DT, could you tag him here if possible?

Actually it would be much better if he saw the OP I opened so I will talk to Ant about it
 
Georredannea15 said:
He said he understood and agreed with the OP but was waiting for the counter-arguments to make a full decision yet and until the counter-arguments came in he's okay with 2-A.

And as I said, what we are doing now is waiting for DT, could you tag him here if possible?

Actually it would be much better if he saw the OP I opened so I will talk to Ant about it
Click to expand...
He said 'leaning towards agreement' and 'I will wait for counter-arguments before I give my full vote'.

In dictating that he hasn't fully agreed. Until he says that he full agrees then I wouldn't consider this as a vote as their not even sure. And just because a person understands your argument doesn't mean that they agree. That's why he wanted to see some counter arguments first.
 
@ProfectusInfinity best summarized the current response to counterarguments here.

ProfectusInfinity:

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral, leaning [in favor of Low 1-C] as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.
In fact, as Ultima explains here and here, having an extra independent timeline or temporal dimension over a multiverse does not give you extra dimensionality (Even Agnaa says this too)
Click to expand...
We don't consider adding an extra timeline to an infinite multiverse to make it Low 1-C.

We should not consider adding an extra dimension to an infinite stack to make it High 1-B+.
Click to expand...
I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).
Since both future and past are part of the same axis, time in one universe could flow in reverse to another universe and they could still have the same time axis as well.
So the flow of time in different universes can be very independent while they have the same time axis.
Click to expand...
So a time dimension just encompassing multiple timelines should in itself indeed not suffice, as that could still go into the same direction (i.e. flow into the same future, just on a spatially greater scale).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, backwards rather than forwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:
The Space Beyond is an infinite black void that extends past the boundaries of the universe and encompasses an infinite number of them.[4] The branching timelines exist inside the Space Beyond. This space separates Universes from each other and isn't accessible via general dimension crossing devices except by for the Map of infinity and the Chrono Navigator.

The Space Beyond has it's own higher temporal dimension than those of the branching timelines. In Ben 10 Omniverse Season 6 Episode 1, Vilgax uses the Chronosapien Time Bomb to destroy all timelines except No Watch Ben's Timeline. The Space Beyond was unaffected by the Chronosapien Time Bomb and the destruction of the timelines. It is not bound by the temporality of the branching timelines.

This is demonstrated by a Chronosapien's time powers. They only work with a higher temporal dimension existing, Clockwork was able to use his Time abilities with the Space Beyond's Temporal Dimension to reverse the Chronosapien Time Bomb's energy wave that spread across the Space Beyond and reverse the destruction of the other timelines.
Click to expand...
Firestorm808 said:
During the previous standards revision, DontTalk had the following to say regarding a time dimension of a realm containing timelines.


Depends on context, but possibly yes. Although that hinges on the word time travel.

Like, fundamentally you could say that you have one timeline that spans multiversal space. In the beginning, that space is empty. Then you rewrite the past so that 3 universes already existed in the space (which is the same as creating 3 timelines). So you rewrite the timeline of the multiversal space.
Then you do the same again to add 5 more.

Technically, you could say you only spawned several more multiverse spanning timelines. Like, now a empty multiverse spanning timeline, a multiverse spanning timeline with 3 universes and a multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes exist. The total number of timelines is only 11.
If you are able to travel between multiverse spanning timelines, you would also be able to switch back from the multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes to the one without any universes/timelines.

However, if you do that specifically via time travel, then that could be a good indicator that you are actually dealing with an additional time dimension. Because that indicates that the progression of the creation of timelines is done within a (presumably continuous) flow of time and that time wouldn't be that of the regular past where those universes always existed.

Due to Clockwork's use of the higher time dimension, he rewinds time from 1 Timeline in the Realm back to many. Per DT, doesn't this demonstrate the higher time dimension flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions?
Click to expand...
The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:
Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinitely many points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement indicating that the alteration of the timelines is subject to its own flow of time, or that special time travel can go to prior versions of the timelines instead of the past. The keyword in the latter case is time travel, as that specifies that the action happens through movement through something like time. Note that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.
Click to expand...
Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:
DivTHEd.jpeg
Y4Kmg2E.jpeg
Click to expand...
I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:
Firestorm808 said:
Due to Clockwork's use of the higher time dimension, he rewinds time from 1 Timeline in the Realm back to many. Per DT, doesn't this demonstrate the higher time dimension flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions?
Click to expand...
This is demonstrated by a Chronosapien's time powers. They only work with a higher temporal dimension existing, Clockwork was able to use his Time abilities with the Space Beyond's Temporal Dimension to reverse the Chronosapien Time Bomb's energy wave that spread across the Space Beyond and reverse the destruction of the other timelines.
Click to expand...
Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.
Technically, you could say you only spawned several more multiverse spanning timelines. Like, now a empty multiverse spanning timeline, a multiverse spanning timeline with 3 universes and a multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes exist. The total number of timelines is only 11.
If you are able to travel between multiverse spanning timelines, you would also be able to switch back from the multiverse spanning timeline with 8 universes to the one without any universes/timelines.
Click to expand...
I replied: The latter. Through Time Manip, the CTB energy wave and its effects are literally reversed.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@ProfectusInfinity best summarized the current response to counterarguments here.

ProfectusInfinity:

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral, leaning [in favor of Low 1-C] as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.


I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).

These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, backwards rather than forwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:


The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:

Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:

I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:


Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

I replied: The latter. Through Time Manip, the CTB energy wave and its effects are literally reversed.
Click to expand...
I actually gave the reasons why this won't work in the previous OP with quotes... On the other hand, when I asked Ultima about it, he said “no” for this.

Can you at least tag one of the two? No one is looking because it's Tier 1. I'm too busy these few days, so I can't discuss at length
 
@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 We would appreciate your assistance in going over our counter-arguments in favor of the higher time dimension.

My personal stance remains the same as before.

vsbattles.com

Ben 10: Space beyond (Low 1-C upgrade)

No, there wasnt. LordGriffin explicitly said that he was withholding his official vote and wanted to hear the opposing arguments. No, not really. Lordgriffin said he agreed with the downgrade until he heard the counter arguments. Check the thread again pls.
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Firestorm808 said:
@ProfectusInfinity best summarized the current response to counterarguments here.

ProfectusInfinity:

Now, regarding the hypertimeline, I'm still neutral, leaning [in favor of Low 1-C] as I definitely have some contentions with the counter-arguments used.


I find the inclusion of this argument odd, as what Ultima and Agnaa are discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with hypertimelines. It's about the significance of being "above baseline infinite" in terms of tierable size. To give full context of the conversation:

The new Low 1-A is transcendent of dimensions and cardinality entirely, but DontTalkDT questions the wording since an uncountably infinite number of dimensions or even Infinity +1 dimensions is technically "transcendent of dimensions," which leads to a debate of analogies over the likeness between adding 1 timeline to an already infinite multiverse and adding 1 dimension to an infinite hierarchy (both still being countably infinite).

This is irrelevant to the topic of hypertimelines. These quotes would at best be applicable against the uncountably infinite timelines argument, and I say "at best" since it doesn't even have to do with the uncountably infinite timelines arguments used (which I already disagree with).

These quotes have nothing to do with the arguments at hand either. The first one is addressing the argument of time flowing in reverse, backwards rather than forwards, as a justification for multiple temporal dimensions.

The second one is addressing the argument of timelines within timelines resulting in hypertimelines, which once again, isn't the argument being used as pretty much everyone who's proposed hypertimelines recently has at least understood the baseline fact that all-encompassing timelines in a vacuum aren't enough for Tier 1.

These are the actual justifications being used:


The argument stems from this excerpt of the Tiering System FAQ:

Essentially, if time travel can be used to reach different states of a multiverse, like time traveling back to when there were 1,000,000 timelines rather than 5, that would be pretty explicit evidence for a higher temporal dimension. One instance that wouldn't qualify (DT mentioned this in response to a profile comment whose link I don't have) is if you time travel back to when a universe was a timeless void, as that could still require a singular axis, but that's irrelevant here. Ultima confirmed something like this on discord too:

I guess my last question is directed towards Firestorm, specifically as regards this statement:


Is the multiverse restored by reversing time, or some kind of indirect temporal tampering with the CTB's energy? I think more context is needed since the latter is questionable for Low 1-C, while the former should absolutely qualify. As DT said, reaching different states of a multiverse only qualifies if it's performed through time travel. Otherwise, you could argue that you simply spawned different overarching timelines (one with an infinite multiverse, and one with a single universe), and reaching different states was achieved through dimensional travel to different overarching timelines altogether.

I replied: The latter. Through Time Manip, the CTB energy wave and its effects are literally reversed.
Click to expand...
I guess this is reasonable.
 
Hellformer said:

Branching Timelines (Low 1-C)​

"Power Set: The set of all subsets of a given set X, commonly denoted as 2^X or P(X). An example is the power set of {1, 3, 4}, which equals {∅, {1}, {3}, {4), {1, 3}, {1, 4}, {3, 4}, {1, 3, 4}}
This hierarchy is then extended unto Aleph Numbers whose subscript can be defined as being correspondent to any higher number, be it finite or infinite: ℵ2, ℵ3, ℵ4... ℵω, ℵω+1, ℵω+2, and so on and so forth, with each succeeding cardinal being equal to the power set of the previous one"
The cardinality of a power set is equal to 2^X if the the cardinality of superset is X. And each higher infinity is the powerset of the lower infinity, Implying that:
ℵ1 = 2^(ℵ0)
ℵ2 = 2^(ℵ 1)
So on and so forth.

"Paradox: As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them... a world where Gwen found the Omnitrix, a world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year, a world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax.
Ben 10K: Et cetera.
Paradox: Ad infinitum.”

-Paradox and Ultimate Ben 10k

With Paradox and Ben 10K, Paradox listed the alternate timelines are parallel versions of history we know, referring prime universe being the history they know and alternative universe to be parallel versions of it, ending the conversation with ad infinitum, suggesting that existing timelines branch forever, again and again making this a continuous process of branching for each snapshot of Prime Ben's Timeline.

“Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll 30 be years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson.”

The branches shown in the tree are alternate timelines with each branch arising from different snapshots of Prime Ben's timeline. And each such branch also branches further as seen in the tree. This continues ad infinitum i.e. forever again and again as mentioned earlier by Paradox.
Here are all known timelines which branch from different snapshots of Prime Ben's timeline.

So let's consider a snapshot "t" from Prime Ben's Timeline being branched to another Timeline. Then consider another snapshot "t+0.1" branching into another timeline. And doing it further with "t+0.01"th snapshot realizing that each there can be uncountably infinite number of snapshots branching into newer and newer timelines.
Which would be a total of ℵ0^(ℵ0) number of universes numerically greater than 2^(ℵ0).
This would mean that the branching timelines as a whole would qualify for Low 1-C

@Firestorm808 Do you want any changes/additions/corrections with this explanation?
Click to expand...
That's what I did over here 👆 @Antvasima
 
Hellformer said:
@Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedus and @Planck69 agree with extra temporality of space beyond but the tally of uncountably infinite universe branches it yet and be confirmed
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Okay. Can somebody please properly explain the as of yet unevaluated part, so they can evaluate that as well, please? 🙏
Click to expand...
Hellformer said:
That's what I did over here 👆 @Antvasima
Click to expand...
Hellformer said:

Branching Timelines (Low 1-C)​

"Power Set: The set of all subsets of a given set X, commonly denoted as 2^X or P(X). An example is the power set of {1, 3, 4}, which equals {∅, {1}, {3}, {4), {1, 3}, {1, 4}, {3, 4}, {1, 3, 4}}
This hierarchy is then extended unto Aleph Numbers whose subscript can be defined as being correspondent to any higher number, be it finite or infinite: ℵ2, ℵ3, ℵ4... ℵω, ℵω+1, ℵω+2, and so on and so forth, with each succeeding cardinal being equal to the power set of the previous one"
The cardinality of a power set is equal to 2^X if the the cardinality of superset is X. And each higher infinity is the powerset of the lower infinity, Implying that:
ℵ1 = 2^(ℵ0)
ℵ2 = 2^(ℵ 1)
So on and so forth.

"Paradox: As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them... a world where Gwen found the Omnitrix, a world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year, a world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax.
Ben 10K: Et cetera.
Paradox: Ad infinitum.”

-Paradox and Ultimate Ben 10k

With Paradox and Ben 10K, Paradox listed the alternate timelines are parallel versions of history we know, referring prime universe being the history they know and alternative universe to be parallel versions of it, ending the conversation with ad infinitum, suggesting that existing timelines branch forever, again and again making this a continuous process of branching for each snapshot of Prime Ben's Timeline.

“Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll 30 be years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson.”

The branches shown in the tree are alternate timelines with each branch arising from different snapshots of Prime Ben's timeline. And each such branch also branches further as seen in the tree. This continues ad infinitum i.e. forever again and again as mentioned earlier by Paradox.
Here are all known timelines which branch from different snapshots of Prime Ben's timeline.

So let's consider a snapshot "t" from Prime Ben's Timeline being branched to another Timeline. Then consider another snapshot "t+0.1" branching into another timeline. And doing it further with "t+0.01"th snapshot realizing that each there can be uncountably infinite number of snapshots branching into newer and newer timelines.
Which would be a total of ℵ0^(ℵ0) number of universes numerically greater than 2^(ℵ0).
This would mean that the branching timelines as a whole would qualify for Low 1-C

@Firestorm808 Do you want any changes/additions/corrections with this explanation?
Click to expand...
@Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69

What do you think about this? 🙏
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can you copy the counter arguments from the other thread for us to go over?
Click to expand...
Counters from Georredannea's thread for uncountably infinite universes was something I debunked right over there. He claimed that 2-A×2-A×2-A×....ℵ0 times is less than ℵ1 but I refuted it simply by proving that it results in ℵ0^(ℵ0) which is numerically greater than ℵ1 i.e. 2^(ℵ0)

Besides from that I didn't find any counter. But we can wait for few more days.
 
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