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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
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- ben 10 ben 10 cosmology
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- #403
Okay
Then this goes back to what @Eficiente was arguing earlier then I think.
I’ll make my own comments later
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Uh, Ben was already aware of it as he said "he read about it in the book", It's also all over the TV and media, and alot of things happened later, trio dealt with capt. nemesis sent robots that were coming from dimension 12 through a portal, it'll make no sense for Kevin to don't know this after dealing with caption nemesis and dimension 12 stuff already. And something that is common among people's of earth, a plumber such as Kevin aware of so many things don't know wouldn't makes sense.
Yeah, it's about universe.
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And to add note, every earthling in Ben 10 only knows that universe is everything even when they are aware about Dimension 12, it's already confirms that Dimensions being inside universe is a common thing in Ben 10 as well or else multiverse would have been a thing even among earthlings.
All this talks about universe do not contain any dimensions just contradicts the lore and too many statements, while based of baseless off assumptions and complex thinking is a another thing.
All this talks about universe do not contain any dimensions just contradicts the lore and too many statements, while based of baseless off assumptions and complex thinking is a another thing.
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You were about to ask just one or 2 questions, just ask them already it's been 3 days, it won't take long, ngl this thread is kinda dead
And for others, Do not derail this thread anymore with the things this thread is not concerned. The premise of this thread already accepts that universe is 2C and profiles as well and only concerns it's with 2B/2A. Reply section is not CRT and can cause unnecessarily long and endless arguements with no conclusion. I am not interested. Give your Opinion on the CRT and move on rather than starting things unrelated to the OP and derail the thread.
Current staff agreement and disagreement ratio among those who participated.
Agree with the thread: @Everything12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Eficiente
Disagree with the thread: @Firestorm808 , @DarkDragonMedeus , @Sir_Ovens
In Pending: @DontTalkDT
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No, I didn't. You can call any reality whatever you want, if you call one a universe and a dimension then they're both, but that's not the same as to say that all dimensions in the verse are universes, or even that all universe are universe-sized if proven otherwise. These rules are standard and working off what we know.
Ben's universe has been called a dimension. Null Void being an alt. dimension means it's alt./not-the-same from other dimensions like Ben's.
"In the dark belt of planets that gird the Null void from regular space, Anur Khufos is a world that is exists below the surface of perception."
"is grid to the regular space by anur system (a inter-dimensional realm) confirming nullvoid to be a part of the universe"
The text does not say that this planets are in an "inter-dimensional realm", or that they're "part of the universe", since you believe that you took that meaning from this. "Regular space" means either
- A) The Null Void's odd-colored space characters regularly walk in and breathe in, the one we always see in the show (Hence regular space). Or
- B) A different kind of space, an outer space that's more like regular space of the universe (Hence regular space).
That the info is vague, how did they all know and how is Kevin in on it?
You don't care about how the feat works on its own because of what you buy into. I don't need proof because the logic of the feat on its own makes it so they're in some dimension, not in their universe.
You're not even trying to be understandable.
Honestly if the few staff here weren't probably busy and there were more, some may comment on how you're being unreasonable on claiming to not understand certain things and how illogical it is things like claiming that dimensions need to mean universes in a verse if once 1 universe is called dimension.
No, you just say that oxymoron because of what you buy into, the quote just mean that all of them in the universe were destroyed, not that all of them were there, that one of them was outside is the exception rather than the rule.
Ok.
Can I see this?
That's made up. He could have gone to "the next dimension" and it wouldn't have mattered. Again the positioning can be anything, no amount of closeness makes a dimension appear in some higher realm where the rules are that only regular universes show up there. A dimensional wall can likewise have any rules, by your own logic if in a verse depending where you break it breaking 1 dimensional wall gets you to be in any universe of the multiverse then that means they're all close to each other, because they were 1 dimensional wall to each other, even though the more logical take is that the rules of the dimensional wall are that they let you travel anywhere by breaking just 1, regardless of the distance.
Didn't claim she has senses past the Space Beyond, the range is just Inderdimensional in both takes. This is nonsense as "her dimension" is her universe too, which means she is, in fact searching beyond the universe, yet the audacity still exists to claim that OV has this use of "universe" where it referst to the universe & more dimensions in it.
Take this info on its own w/o conclusions of what it all means at the end and this means the Null Void was called a universe. Just like in any other verse calling a dimension once a universe makes them a universe.
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Again, you're making baseless assumptions. Per the episode, he was going to bore through the dimensional wall between the two dimensions to bring his army to Earth. There's nothing about a "next dimension." Based on the various statements and contexts of the show, the Null Void dimension being near to the Earth Dimension is the reasonable assumption. Saying that the Null Void is outside the Space Beyond has no basis in the show. What basis are you using for your claims?
By your claim, that these other dimensions exist outside the space beyond, that is what you are implying. Gwen is in her dimension. Gwen stretches her senses outside her dimension into the Space Beyond. The senses go outside the space beyond and to Legerdomain. In turn, your claim makes her senses go past the Space Beyond.
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Of course there is nothing about a "next dimension", I said it hypothetically knowing it wasn't there. I can get behind the Null Void being near the "Earth Dimension, don't mean it's in the same universe. I didn't claim it is outside the Space Beyond, simply that the Space Beyond doesn't show it.
Same as before.
---
Think of the things I said so far: "I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series)."
"I'm sure some will think, if not necessarily say, that why doesn't the Space Beyond have other realities other than "our universe"-like universes, that if it shows those shouldn't it show everything? No. That's a headcanon, the place that has universes but in present tense can have whatever rules the writers felt like, non-"our universe"-like universes too can have whatever rules in terms of positioning/structure and what makes their names all not just "universe" if some are sometimes called that. It's not mandatory that if you are in some place that's the space between universes it has to also be the space between dimensions when there's any implied difference in value between univeres and dimension."
"Nope, there doesn't need to something like that where dimensions can all be seen. The idea of a reality where universes can all be seen at a set size is already something made up, and it's great that it exists in the show, but that doesn't mean that a similar place has to exist for the other dimensions as that would be made up."
"Yes. They can still be closely tied. You can't really measure being closely tied, you can have a verse where some universes are easier to travel between each other due to being closely tied with that being all the explanation and that will be fine, even if a realistic multiverse map has them randomly located across other universes, rather than close to each other or something."
If you work off what's intuitive, explain to me what rules applies to it, because here I'm saying that dimensions like the Null Void not showing up the the Space Beyond doesn't mean that they're outside it and that they're not far from Earth's Dimension, that they can still be close to Earth's Dimension because the rules are that positioning still allows this to happens. Under my same logic, I say that if 2 universes are far from each other in a canon multiverse map, but the verse states that they're close/have a conection, then this is not a contradiction.
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Let me try and break down what you said to get an understanding.
Green = Ben's Dimension
Red = Null Void
Purple = Legerdomain
Blue = Etc. Dimensions
What would you add, remove, or change to depict your image of the Space Beyond and its relation to the different dimensions?
- Of course there is nothing about a "next dimension", I said it hypothetically knowing it wasn't there. I can get behind the Null Void being near the "Earth Dimension, don't mean it's in the same universe. I didn't claim it is outside the Space Beyond, simply that the Space Beyond doesn't show it.
- You agree that the Null Void is "near" the Earth Dimension
- If the Null Void is not outside the space beyond, then you agree that it is inside the space beyond, yes?
- Think of the things I said so far: "I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series)."
- You disagree that the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe.
- Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you saying the Space Beyond does not contain dimensions such as the Null Void, Legerdomain, and etc?
- You believe that the Space beyond only contains branches of the Ben Dimension
- As accepted by previous threads, the "Branch Universe Clusters" was a term used to describe the collective dimensions that make up the universe. In turn, the universe branches off into different parallels
- You believe that non-Ben Dimensions don't branch along with Ben's Dimension?
- You disagree that the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe.
- "I'm sure some will think, if not necessarily say, that why doesn't the Space Beyond have other realities other than "our universe"-like universes, that if it shows those shouldn't it show everything? No. That's a headcanon, the place that has universes but in present tense can have whatever rules the writers felt like, non-"our universe"-like universes too can have whatever rules in terms of positioning/structure and what makes their names all not just "universe" if some are sometimes called that. It's not mandatory that if you are in some place that's the space between universes it has to also be the space between dimensions when there's any implied difference in value between univeres and dimension."
- This is in contradiction to your previous statements. You previously said that the non-Earth Dimensions like the Null Void are not outside the Space Beyond. Now, you are saying that the Space Beyond is only the space outside and between universes and does not contain the other dimensions. Doesn't that imply you saying that other dimensions are outside the Space Beyond?
- "Nope, there doesn't need to something like that where dimensions can all be seen. The idea of a reality where universes can all be seen at a set size is already something made up, and it's great that it exists in the show, but that doesn't mean that a similar place has to exist for the other dimensions as that would be made up."
- Again, you are confusing us as to where you are placing these other dimensions. Are they in the Space Beyond or not?
- "Yes. They can still be closely tied. You can't really measure being closely tied, you can have a verse where some universes are easier to travel between each other due to being closely tied with that being all the explanation and that will be fine, even if a realistic multiverse map has them randomly located across other universes, rather than close to each other or something."
- If you work off what's intuitive, explain to me what rules applies to it, because here I'm saying that dimensions like the Null Void not showing up the the Space Beyond doesn't mean that they're outside it and that they're not far from Earth's Dimension, that they can still be close to Earth's Dimension because the rules are that positioning still allows this to happens. Under my same logic, I say that if 2 universes are far from each other in a canon multiverse map, but the verse states that they're close/have a conection, then this is not a contradiction.
- I can't say I follow
Red = Null Void
Purple = Legerdomain
Blue = Etc. Dimensions
What would you add, remove, or change to depict your image of the Space Beyond and its relation to the different dimensions?
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Don't see any reasoning in this paragraph to be related to the issue whatsover.
There were many and infact all agreed when you rejected the thread. And no, no one is saying universes means dimensions or dimensions always means universes. Only thing there is, it doesn't matter, Dimensions are just spaces with length, breadth and height. That's all there is.
Read the scan about anur phaetus tbh. It's directly state that it is not a regular planet, it's interdimensional.
Your 1st interpretation is the vaguest thing I've ever seen or anyone to describe the scan fr. I mean, i don't see it being even interpreted in such a way? A simple interpretation is that anur system grid/connect the nullvoid with a regular space (universe), your interpretation doesn't makes sense and I don't know how you even reached it. Occam's Razer. Move on.
No evidence? Okay. She searched the entire universe and so we know it. Everyone knows it, everyone saw it and no one is using here headcanon or vague interpretations or the farthest interpretation possible. A text what conveys simply always being taken. We don't go considering infinite interpretation of the text that is possible as there is always a room for possibility. Please provide evidence for your claim. Well you don't have is a another thing.
Context my god, they were saying they distroyed every energy core in the known universe, so "there is GoD Damn nothing left", did you ignored or what?
Gwen said "We God damn destroyed every core in the known universe", Max confirmed yes you did destroyed every core in the "known universe" in the sense yes there is nothing left as all of them were in the entire universe, what can be possible to be left when we already destroyed every energy core in the known universe?, no trouble, solved, but there is still one left outside of it, is it hard to understand? Prove that one of them is outside of the universe among those they destroyed, give scans not claims. You are going with so many assumptions and complex interpretation of the scan and quoting things Outta context.
Give evidence?? No one called nullvoid a universe ever in the Show, other verses has called some Dimensions a universe sometimes because they treat them like that, it's never got treated like one in Ben 10 but just prison and pocket dimension, not even by Kevin who lived here half of his life. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences, Occam's Razer and baseless assumptions.
Efi. Thankyou very much with your time, but don't derail this thread anymore. This thread, everyone and even it's very premise accepts that universe contains more than one dimension and is not even about that, this is clearly written in the OP and discussion over it has been already done with the premises this thread accepts. Arguing with me won't give you any result. Your claims do not have base to stand on, something that you don't find satisfactory and has been denying is your problem not mine. I don't care. I have convinced others and that's my thing, you convinced others is your thing but this thread is not for that.
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Yes. I agree
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The premise of the thread already accepts that universe contains more than one dimensions and it has been discussed in the past threads too much, even with efi, even with zamasu and in the end it has gotten accepted and OP itself says that universe is 2C is sufficient and solid enough and do not deal with it. This thread has been all with the premises in the OP and at this point changing the premise of the thread making it a mess all over and it'll not have any conclusion either as it's not in the OP for others to conclude it to add on more, it accepts as everyone who participated in my thread.
To be precise we should finish this crt first and new topics of someone disagree can discuss this in his own thread. This crt is near conclusion.
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Can we please not continuously keep forcing stuff to not be discussed here by saying over and over “this has been discussed and accepted already” ?
Everyone here knows, or should know, that things accepted are not immune to being put into question just because they got accepted before.
To clarify, I said the universes being 2-C or so were something I didn’t mind, just that them being 2-A was the problem. But if someone sees what they believe is faulty evidence, like Eficiente believing the evidence isn’t good enough for even this, then he should be able to call that out. Faulty evidence is faulty evidence.
Everyone here knows, or should know, that things accepted are not immune to being put into question just because they got accepted before.
To clarify, I said the universes being 2-C or so were something I didn’t mind, just that them being 2-A was the problem. But if someone sees what they believe is faulty evidence, like Eficiente believing the evidence isn’t good enough for even this, then he should be able to call that out. Faulty evidence is faulty evidence.
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Did i said they're immune? I already said i don't mind. But we aren't here to discuss each thing about Cosmology but only what OP concerns, that's the way we deal with threads, that's the way they have been dealt. I don't mind if someone create a crt, idc. I will handle them as I am handling this one right now. It clearly written in our rules to not start a multi topic on the threads as we cannot deal with several things all together. This crt is only over 1 of my crt not my all of them. After 5 pages of bickering I am being told to start over? Nah. I've dealt with these things even before when efi was there, we aren't going to start new things here. This crt is open for opinion not for another crt in the replies. Who agrees with universe not containing more than one dimension? Which staff? How many staff? None but efi since always. Efi finds it problematic he can create a crt.
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@Antvasima
To clarify, the OP had us discuss the previous use of statements to determine the number of dimensions.
Pages later, the topic of how the cosmological structure is to be interpreted in general was brought up, derailing the thread.
This is not the thread for that. Save that topic and discussion for another time.
To clarify, the OP had us discuss the previous use of statements to determine the number of dimensions.
Pages later, the topic of how the cosmological structure is to be interpreted in general was brought up, derailing the thread.
This is not the thread for that. Save that topic and discussion for another time.
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Okay. That seems reasonable to me.
Forthegood
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Bump
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DT said he'll reply. Heasked for evidences and explaination day before tomorrow.
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Deadlock of 3:3 and DT said he is unsure about WOG and will give his opinion.
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Okay. That is good then. Our resident genius often needs to straighten things out for the rest of us.
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Nah that comment is next level.
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From my understanding, the argument this thread is trying debunk is that,
there are infinite show universes (ben10 univers, generator rex universe etc.) and each of these show universes has infinite parallel dimensions?
if that’s the case, then I don’t agree with the first part of the downgrade, “a possible 2-A” would be fine for that franchise, ben 10 and generator re
however, for each individual show, I agree that there isn’t any evidence stating a clear possibility that the ben 10 macrocosm has infinite universes inside of it.
now the only question is, does ben 10’s characters scale to outside their macrocosm?
there are infinite show universes (ben10 univers, generator rex universe etc.) and each of these show universes has infinite parallel dimensions?
if that’s the case, then I don’t agree with the first part of the downgrade, “a possible 2-A” would be fine for that franchise, ben 10 and generator re
however, for each individual show, I agree that there isn’t any evidence stating a clear possibility that the ben 10 macrocosm has infinite universes inside of it.
now the only question is, does ben 10’s characters scale to outside their macrocosm?
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Yes.
Yes again, I was always fine with "possibly 2-A" if writer statement doesn't seems credible, but only thing that got me angry that this thread was ignoring the context of the term "Dimensions" in the entire crossover.
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The writer’s statement to me is not credible at all. He wasn’t tweeting from any official show account.
but the other character’s statement is as plain as can be warrants a “possibly 2-A” at the very least. Any argument against that is blatantly ignoring evidence.
And if Ben 10 characters scale to outside their macrocosm, then they should be able to access that possible 2-A tier with proper feats.
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Uh well, you got it all wrong i just realised
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Ben 10 is a single verse, generator Rex is a part of it. They're not seprate.
And generator Rex Dimension, nullvoid, Ben's dimension, Legerdomain, Dimension 12, Transspatial bladder dimension, bleach dimension they're not seprate universes but part of the universe as in-universe dimensions, and crossover only deals with these in-universe Dimensions and in the statement of infinite dimensions has these in-universe dimensions included providing this statement a context for in-universe dimension, and other things that I described in this thread that it would make less sense for this infinite dimensions to be considered "universes" rather than in-universe dimensions, besides that the crossover has nothing to do with universes at all but only in-universe dimensions.
For the multiverse part, yes, there is not enough evidence that there are infinite universes besides WOG but it wouldn't really matter if individual universes are 2-A.
In simple terms, In your explanation, "infinite show universes" is just a single Universe, and each individual "show universes" are just "in-universe Dimensions"
And generator Rex Dimension, nullvoid, Ben's dimension, Legerdomain, Dimension 12, Transspatial bladder dimension, bleach dimension they're not seprate universes but part of the universe as in-universe dimensions, and crossover only deals with these in-universe Dimensions and in the statement of infinite dimensions has these in-universe dimensions included providing this statement a context for in-universe dimension, and other things that I described in this thread that it would make less sense for this infinite dimensions to be considered "universes" rather than in-universe dimensions, besides that the crossover has nothing to do with universes at all but only in-universe dimensions.
For the multiverse part, yes, there is not enough evidence that there are infinite universes besides WOG but it wouldn't really matter if individual universes are 2-A.
In simple terms, In your explanation, "infinite show universes" is just a single Universe, and each individual "show universes" are just "in-universe Dimensions"
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Even if, then it would still sound more like the collection of dimensions is infinite in size, rather than the number of dimensions being infinite.
Honestly, I really don't know. I feel like the best evidence of all those presented is Holiday's and I'm not sure if that's enough for a "possibly" for me.
I guess I might be leaning to a possibly being fine.
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If this is the case, then I still disagree with the downvote.
The woman's statement is well enough for "possibly 2-A".
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Forthegood
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Duncan says that Twitter is their central for QnA's
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Okay then, as to break the deadlock of 3:3 staff, the thread has been decided over to be concluded on the @DontTalkDT 's judgement, that said. Universe will be "2B, possibly 2A" and multiverse as well. Thank you everyone for participating.
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what about the timeline and the world beyond, does that stay the same
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This crt, it's judgement, it has nothing to do with my Low 1C thread. That will remain as it is. Anyway, this crt is concluded. Any concerns will be answered in the ben 10 discussion thread.
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wait, there is such a thread? show me
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thank you
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Will the profiles be affected after this or is it still possible for them to get upgraded to Low 1-C
- Status
