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Good afternoon y'all. It's been a while since I done one of these, but back at it again here, so you already know where this is heading. We're back with another Ben 10 thread. And yes. we are going to go through this yet again. I've witnessed some of the changes that it's been through recently, and have a lot of problems with how they've been passed, so im tackling them here in this new thread. Or rather, continuing from where @Zamasu_Chan left off earlier. So without further a due, let's get on to it.
So the purpose of this thread will be to address my concerns and the concerns Zamasu had with the state of Ben 10's Cosmology as it's currently being treated here. Alien X, while apart of Zamasu's original downgrade, is being saved for another thread of mine, and will have little to nothing to do with this one. The primary focus here is discussing the Cosmology.
The Problems with the Cosmology
Problem 1: The Cosmology Being 2-A
First things first, explaining why the current Cosmology is an issue for (us) me. I don't really agree with Ben 10's multiverse being infinite. At least, not in the way that it's treated as of right now anyway. Much of the evidence that was used to justify it's 2-A standing, from the recent threads I've looked over so far, is extremely flimsy, built on assumptions, and some even being reused after having already been deemed unreliable several times in the past, and it being explained why it was unreliable over and over again. Let's get into why this evidence isn't as ironclad as people think.
Evidence 1: Professor Holiday's Statement on Infinite Dimensions
This overused statement is one of the evidences brought up the most, so i'll address this one first. In the Generator Rex & Ben 10 crossover episode, we have a statement provided to us by Professor Holiday about there being theoretically infinite dimensions in existence.
Since Generator Rex and Ben 10 are canon to each other, it's easy to see how this results in being 2-A at first, right? Except, that's not actually the case. Concerns of one sided canonicity put aside, Holiday's infinite dimension statement shouldn't be considered reliable to use as evidence for the Cosmology at all. There have been multiple past threads and discussions it was brought up in, and every time it was brought up, an explanation as to why it was problematic was provided in those discussions, so it begs the question as to why it's still being used to this day.
Holiday isn't a credible character that can be taken seriously when speaking about the structure of the cosmology. She only comes to this conclusion about infinite dimensions existing through simple math and calculations, implied by her comment on "math not working" in Rex's favor when he asked if he'd see Ben again. She isn't like Professor Paradox, where in his case, he has an actual deep understanding of space-time and credible level of knowledge and research done into the existence of alternate worlds, a concept that Generator Rex as a whole never deals with in their series, outside of this crossover episode. I know what other verses do on here shouldn't have an effect on what another verse does, but for this particular situation, if something like this was really enough to get to 2-A, a lot more series here would be upgraded just the same, and would have been for a while. But this isn't even the biggest issue with Holiday's statement actually.
What's even more damning here about the unreliability of the statement is that Holiday herself originally believed that parallel worlds didn't even exist in the first place. That the existence of any parallel world was only a theory, and a shaky one at that. Ben mentions himself traveling to parallel worlds all the time and she immediately shoots him down.
Yet, shes then suddenly aware that infinite dimensions exist? If she doubted the idea of another universe even existing to begin with, why are we taking her word as fact when she says there are then infinite? See what I mean?
2-A as a whole is not something that should be this easily accessible based off evidence like this, especially shaky evidence that shoots itself in the mouth like this does. Our site has very high standards when it comes to the territory of granting 2-A upgrades for a reason, and something like this most definitely shouldn't be meeting those said standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Not to mention, as a bonus point if you really wanted to take this issue further, we can look at the context behind this statement and what it's being aimed at. There doesn't literally need to be infinite dimensions in order for Holidays statement to answer Rex's concern. The point here is that Rex wondered if he and Ben would ever cross paths again after Ben goes back to his own world, but Holiday intervenes, saying the math isn't in his favor of that being a likelihood because there are supposedly infinite worlds. At the end of the day, we know that the Ben 10 Multiverse is filled with a ridiculous number of universes and dimensions, whether it's infinite or not. So when going off of Holiday's answer to Rex's concern, there doesn't need to be literally infinite dimensions in order to simply say the likelihood of Rex and Ben meeting again isn't in Rex's favor. In other words, this infinite dimensions statement can just be argued to be a flowery, fancy way of saying that Rex and Ben will most likely not cross paths again because of the ridiculously large amount of parallel worlds there are, so it doesn't necessarily need to be literally infinite dimensions exactly. Especially since Generator Rex as a show doesn't dive into the concept of parallel universes and space-times outside of this crossover, and Holiday's initial doubt on different worlds being in existence only being a shaky theory, making this a plausible assertion to make. But even with being generous, stronger points against this statement were made.
Between her lack of credible knowledge and the fact she initially doubted the existence of parallel worlds, Holiday suddenly coming to the conclusion there is then an infinite number of them and claiming that shouldn't be taken seriously in any capacity, and should be removed as evidence for this.
Evidence 2: The use of "Word of God" Twitter Statements
This also comes up very often when concerning Ben 10 revisions, despite how often it's been explained to not be permitted to be used, so im addressing this part next.
This part of the evidence used for 2-A comes from comments made on Twitter to answer fan questions asking about the scope of the Cosmology. "Word of God" comments in other words.
As well as this, this, and this. There's probably more, but you get the picture at this point.
I really don't have to say much as to why this evidence is extremely faulty, as it'll just be repeating what has already been said in the past. But, to be perfectly blunt, this will go to show how extremely unmoderated these revisions for the verse are if evidence like this are allowed to be passed again and again without any questions being raised. In any event, these "word of god" answers are not allowed to be used as evidence, in any way, shape or form.
We literally have it written in our Editing Rules page that any answers to fan questions that seemingly come from the writer/creator directly on social media are to be generally disregarded, as they are made in uncaring and unserious manners, and that only answers from proper, serious and actual interviews are to be taken as evidence for revisions here.
"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable."
Something that none of these twitter responses meet the standards of in any capacity when it comes to this rule. Even if you wanted to stretch it with the last 2 twitter answers, where they have at least some amount of depth put in to their answer as opposed to just being a one worded one, they still aren't sufficient evidence for upgrading the Cosmology. One doesn't even mention anything about infinite universes, and the other talks about physicists having different ideas and perspectives about the concept of parallel worlds, where there could be as many as infinite ones to as low as 12, giving no explicit confirmation as to which is the actual case for the scope of the multiverse. Either way, using these twitter responses as evidence to allow the Cosmology to be upgraded breaks our sites editing rules, there's no validity or reliability to them at all as there isn't with any social media response, and they should be removed as evidence as well.
Evidence 3: Hero Two Times Comic Statement
This next evidence comes from the Hero Two Times comic, another crossover between Generator Rex and Ben 10 (or the same crossover with expanded details that the cartoon show's crossover didn't show). In this crossover, Ben makes a statement to Rex about how there are millions of dimensions.
Now, this isn't as much of a problem as the previous evidences I talked about. In fact, the statement in and of itself is fine for the most part. You could question whether or not Ben's word on this is reliable enough to take it literally, but that's not the main problem with this.
The issue I have with this is the canonicity of the comic itself. In the thread where determining the canonicity of the action pack comic took place, none of the reasons given where deemed sufficient enough to accept the comic as canon, except for one. Duncan's answer to a fan asking if the action pack comics were canon was the only reason the Hero Two Times comic was accepted as canon for this statement to be used (shown by @Eficiente accepting it's canon status when seeing this, but not having done this before then).
Notice a familiar issue? It's as I already went into before about the use of social media answers, only this time here its about the canon of a source instead of the scope of the cosmology. But I wont go too much into this, as the statement itself isn't much of a problem and even if the comic is canon, this at best only supports 2-B.
Evidence 4: The Infinite Timestream
Lastly, this last piece of evidence I found for supporting 2-A from the given threads recently, that may also be worth something, is the timestream being stated to be infinite as it was used in this previous thread. And here's the clip for it as well.
As I said, the timestream being stated infinite may be worth something towards 2-A, but with the other evidences that were used in tandem with this being put into question, this by itself may not be enough as was mentioned in the 2-A thread to be up for interpretation in regards to it's context. But i'll be holding off on this for now as well and tackle this later in the discussion, as I want to tackle the next problem with the Cosmology currently as was previously brought up that should be mentioned again.
Problem 2: Every Universe Containing Infinite "In-Universe" Dimensions
This one is the bigger issue at hand that definitely needs to be addressed. While I explained above why a lot of the evidence justifying the Cosmology being 2-A shouldn't hold, we can play devils advocate here and say without a doubt that the Multiverse is indeed infinite. Even if that indeed is the case, the claim that every universe in this said multiverse contains another infinite amount of dimensions residing inside themselves, therefore making the Prime universe and every other universe a sort of Multiversal Macrocosm, is an argument that goes extremely unsupported, and uses a lot of assumptions, without a shred of evidence proving this is legit. Zamasu went a lot into bringing this up already, so i'll just quote what he had to say about this earlier.
The point should be clear, and Zamasu's downgrade thread is linked here at the beginning so you can go back to read the discussions in full if you want to. As far as dimensions like the Null Void & Ledgerdomain go, and maybe Dimension 12, they were given sufficient to solid evidence to prove they reside within the Prime universe. So it being a 2-C sized structure is fine. Zamasu himself agreed with this too.
But everything else? The Prime Universe containing infinite dimensions inside of itself? This being the case in the Ben 10 multiverse is something never once proven, in any capacity, in any of these recent revisions. Not a scan, databook entry, a statement, anything like that is given. The only reason given for having infinite dimensions residing within the Prime Universe here was "there is no reason to think they aren't". Occams Razor, with assuming an infinite amount are in a universe simply because 2 or 3 dimensions mentioned earlier were specifically proven to.
To be perfectly blunt, this is straight up ridiculous, something we don't do anywhere on this site and is absolutely not acceptable under our standards. It's like I mentioned before, 2-A upgrades like this one have high standards here for a reason, the bigger the claims you make, the bigger the requirement of evidence becomes. This is a massive reverse burden of proof being done, simply assuming something on such a scale like this is happening only because a couple dimensions in particular were given proof reaches gigantic levels of speculation and reverses the Occam's razor. Far more than this is needed to prove a universe contains infinite other dimensions, and the fact this went through with no one questioning this raises a lot of issues.
And on that note, another issue with this that is worth bringing up too is that this also takes crazy manipulation of the words "universe", "timeline", and "dimension", terms that everyone here knows are used interchangeably all the time. Zamasu goes at great length to explain this for Ben 10's case as well:
I think what I quoted speaks for itself. These terms are very interchangeably used, extremely often both in fiction and in Ben 10. For us to assume that every universe, like the Prime Universe, contains an infinite amount of dimensions inside of themselves to be considered 2-A structures contained within the multiverse, all because they're called dimensions, is something we shouldn't be doing without a significant amount of evidence and context being given proving this is legitimately the case. And as of now, none of the provided threads where these upgrades were accepted make an attempt at doing this.
The likelihood of Ben 10's Multiverse being considered 2-A is already lowered as I explained in the first section, but even with the benefit of the doubt and we take it as 2-A, the scale of 2-A it's currently at needs major revising.
TL;DR
The Ben 10 Cosmology uses a lot of flimsy evidence and speculation for its current standing. It's evidence for 2-A stands on little legs with only one thing possibly going for it, and the scale of it's 2-A level where infinite dimensions reside inside every universe like the Prime Universe has no evidence whatsoever and uses pure speculation. One way or another, the justifications used to support the verse's current standing, for the reasons given here, are wrong and need to be fixed.
Agree (7): @Toby020, @Everything12, @Maverick_Zero_X, @CurrySenpai, @WIngs_Of_Despair (Agrees with axing 2-A universes), @AKUTO123, @Setsuna_tenma,
Disagree (17): @Sir_Ovens, @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus,@Reiner , @Aachintya31, @omegabronic, @Lynieryz, @Forthegood, @WIngs_Of_Despair (Disagrees with downgrading the Multiverse from 2-A), @Ottavio_Merluzzo , @ImmortalDread, @DemonicDude, @Nierre, @Alexander, @RoTt35, @Lovemovies14, @Guacamolefletcher
Neutral: @Vasco , @Irineu, @Problemexe, @Godernet
Disagree with the thread:
The Purpose of This Thread
So some months ago recently, the Ben 10 verse has went through some pretty significant changes, both in the Cosmology and how characters like Alien X scale to it. You can refer to these threads on where these upgrades happened.Previous Approved Threads
- https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-timelines-and-dimensions-structure-proposal-accepted.142279/
- https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-other-space-times-in-the-universe-accepted.142789/
- https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/
- https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-universe-structure-proposal-accepted.142864/
- https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-discrediting-the-downgrade-of-2019-accepted.143385/
- https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-a-cosmology-proposal-accepted.143443/
Relevant Blogs From Threads
- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Ben_10_-_Cosmology
- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._10_-_Alien_X_Feats,_Statements,_and_Scalings
So the purpose of this thread will be to address my concerns and the concerns Zamasu had with the state of Ben 10's Cosmology as it's currently being treated here. Alien X, while apart of Zamasu's original downgrade, is being saved for another thread of mine, and will have little to nothing to do with this one. The primary focus here is discussing the Cosmology.
The Problems with the Cosmology
Problem 1: The Cosmology Being 2-A
First things first, explaining why the current Cosmology is an issue for (us) me. I don't really agree with Ben 10's multiverse being infinite. At least, not in the way that it's treated as of right now anyway. Much of the evidence that was used to justify it's 2-A standing, from the recent threads I've looked over so far, is extremely flimsy, built on assumptions, and some even being reused after having already been deemed unreliable several times in the past, and it being explained why it was unreliable over and over again. Let's get into why this evidence isn't as ironclad as people think.
Evidence 1: Professor Holiday's Statement on Infinite Dimensions
This overused statement is one of the evidences brought up the most, so i'll address this one first. In the Generator Rex & Ben 10 crossover episode, we have a statement provided to us by Professor Holiday about there being theoretically infinite dimensions in existence.
Since Generator Rex and Ben 10 are canon to each other, it's easy to see how this results in being 2-A at first, right? Except, that's not actually the case. Concerns of one sided canonicity put aside, Holiday's infinite dimension statement shouldn't be considered reliable to use as evidence for the Cosmology at all. There have been multiple past threads and discussions it was brought up in, and every time it was brought up, an explanation as to why it was problematic was provided in those discussions, so it begs the question as to why it's still being used to this day.
Holiday isn't a credible character that can be taken seriously when speaking about the structure of the cosmology. She only comes to this conclusion about infinite dimensions existing through simple math and calculations, implied by her comment on "math not working" in Rex's favor when he asked if he'd see Ben again. She isn't like Professor Paradox, where in his case, he has an actual deep understanding of space-time and credible level of knowledge and research done into the existence of alternate worlds, a concept that Generator Rex as a whole never deals with in their series, outside of this crossover episode. I know what other verses do on here shouldn't have an effect on what another verse does, but for this particular situation, if something like this was really enough to get to 2-A, a lot more series here would be upgraded just the same, and would have been for a while. But this isn't even the biggest issue with Holiday's statement actually.
What's even more damning here about the unreliability of the statement is that Holiday herself originally believed that parallel worlds didn't even exist in the first place. That the existence of any parallel world was only a theory, and a shaky one at that. Ben mentions himself traveling to parallel worlds all the time and she immediately shoots him down.
Yet, shes then suddenly aware that infinite dimensions exist? If she doubted the idea of another universe even existing to begin with, why are we taking her word as fact when she says there are then infinite? See what I mean?
2-A as a whole is not something that should be this easily accessible based off evidence like this, especially shaky evidence that shoots itself in the mouth like this does. Our site has very high standards when it comes to the territory of granting 2-A upgrades for a reason, and something like this most definitely shouldn't be meeting those said standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Not to mention, as a bonus point if you really wanted to take this issue further, we can look at the context behind this statement and what it's being aimed at. There doesn't literally need to be infinite dimensions in order for Holidays statement to answer Rex's concern. The point here is that Rex wondered if he and Ben would ever cross paths again after Ben goes back to his own world, but Holiday intervenes, saying the math isn't in his favor of that being a likelihood because there are supposedly infinite worlds. At the end of the day, we know that the Ben 10 Multiverse is filled with a ridiculous number of universes and dimensions, whether it's infinite or not. So when going off of Holiday's answer to Rex's concern, there doesn't need to be literally infinite dimensions in order to simply say the likelihood of Rex and Ben meeting again isn't in Rex's favor. In other words, this infinite dimensions statement can just be argued to be a flowery, fancy way of saying that Rex and Ben will most likely not cross paths again because of the ridiculously large amount of parallel worlds there are, so it doesn't necessarily need to be literally infinite dimensions exactly. Especially since Generator Rex as a show doesn't dive into the concept of parallel universes and space-times outside of this crossover, and Holiday's initial doubt on different worlds being in existence only being a shaky theory, making this a plausible assertion to make. But even with being generous, stronger points against this statement were made.
Between her lack of credible knowledge and the fact she initially doubted the existence of parallel worlds, Holiday suddenly coming to the conclusion there is then an infinite number of them and claiming that shouldn't be taken seriously in any capacity, and should be removed as evidence for this.
Evidence 2: The use of "Word of God" Twitter Statements
This also comes up very often when concerning Ben 10 revisions, despite how often it's been explained to not be permitted to be used, so im addressing this part next.
This part of the evidence used for 2-A comes from comments made on Twitter to answer fan questions asking about the scope of the Cosmology. "Word of God" comments in other words.
As well as this, this, and this. There's probably more, but you get the picture at this point.
I really don't have to say much as to why this evidence is extremely faulty, as it'll just be repeating what has already been said in the past. But, to be perfectly blunt, this will go to show how extremely unmoderated these revisions for the verse are if evidence like this are allowed to be passed again and again without any questions being raised. In any event, these "word of god" answers are not allowed to be used as evidence, in any way, shape or form.
We literally have it written in our Editing Rules page that any answers to fan questions that seemingly come from the writer/creator directly on social media are to be generally disregarded, as they are made in uncaring and unserious manners, and that only answers from proper, serious and actual interviews are to be taken as evidence for revisions here.
"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable."
Something that none of these twitter responses meet the standards of in any capacity when it comes to this rule. Even if you wanted to stretch it with the last 2 twitter answers, where they have at least some amount of depth put in to their answer as opposed to just being a one worded one, they still aren't sufficient evidence for upgrading the Cosmology. One doesn't even mention anything about infinite universes, and the other talks about physicists having different ideas and perspectives about the concept of parallel worlds, where there could be as many as infinite ones to as low as 12, giving no explicit confirmation as to which is the actual case for the scope of the multiverse. Either way, using these twitter responses as evidence to allow the Cosmology to be upgraded breaks our sites editing rules, there's no validity or reliability to them at all as there isn't with any social media response, and they should be removed as evidence as well.
Evidence 3: Hero Two Times Comic Statement
This next evidence comes from the Hero Two Times comic, another crossover between Generator Rex and Ben 10 (or the same crossover with expanded details that the cartoon show's crossover didn't show). In this crossover, Ben makes a statement to Rex about how there are millions of dimensions.
Now, this isn't as much of a problem as the previous evidences I talked about. In fact, the statement in and of itself is fine for the most part. You could question whether or not Ben's word on this is reliable enough to take it literally, but that's not the main problem with this.
The issue I have with this is the canonicity of the comic itself. In the thread where determining the canonicity of the action pack comic took place, none of the reasons given where deemed sufficient enough to accept the comic as canon, except for one. Duncan's answer to a fan asking if the action pack comics were canon was the only reason the Hero Two Times comic was accepted as canon for this statement to be used (shown by @Eficiente accepting it's canon status when seeing this, but not having done this before then).
Notice a familiar issue? It's as I already went into before about the use of social media answers, only this time here its about the canon of a source instead of the scope of the cosmology. But I wont go too much into this, as the statement itself isn't much of a problem and even if the comic is canon, this at best only supports 2-B.
Evidence 4: The Infinite Timestream
Lastly, this last piece of evidence I found for supporting 2-A from the given threads recently, that may also be worth something, is the timestream being stated to be infinite as it was used in this previous thread. And here's the clip for it as well.
As I said, the timestream being stated infinite may be worth something towards 2-A, but with the other evidences that were used in tandem with this being put into question, this by itself may not be enough as was mentioned in the 2-A thread to be up for interpretation in regards to it's context. But i'll be holding off on this for now as well and tackle this later in the discussion, as I want to tackle the next problem with the Cosmology currently as was previously brought up that should be mentioned again.
Problem 2: Every Universe Containing Infinite "In-Universe" Dimensions
This one is the bigger issue at hand that definitely needs to be addressed. While I explained above why a lot of the evidence justifying the Cosmology being 2-A shouldn't hold, we can play devils advocate here and say without a doubt that the Multiverse is indeed infinite. Even if that indeed is the case, the claim that every universe in this said multiverse contains another infinite amount of dimensions residing inside themselves, therefore making the Prime universe and every other universe a sort of Multiversal Macrocosm, is an argument that goes extremely unsupported, and uses a lot of assumptions, without a shred of evidence proving this is legit. Zamasu went a lot into bringing this up already, so i'll just quote what he had to say about this earlier.
The point should be clear, and Zamasu's downgrade thread is linked here at the beginning so you can go back to read the discussions in full if you want to. As far as dimensions like the Null Void & Ledgerdomain go, and maybe Dimension 12, they were given sufficient to solid evidence to prove they reside within the Prime universe. So it being a 2-C sized structure is fine. Zamasu himself agreed with this too.
But everything else? The Prime Universe containing infinite dimensions inside of itself? This being the case in the Ben 10 multiverse is something never once proven, in any capacity, in any of these recent revisions. Not a scan, databook entry, a statement, anything like that is given. The only reason given for having infinite dimensions residing within the Prime Universe here was "there is no reason to think they aren't". Occams Razor, with assuming an infinite amount are in a universe simply because 2 or 3 dimensions mentioned earlier were specifically proven to.
To be perfectly blunt, this is straight up ridiculous, something we don't do anywhere on this site and is absolutely not acceptable under our standards. It's like I mentioned before, 2-A upgrades like this one have high standards here for a reason, the bigger the claims you make, the bigger the requirement of evidence becomes. This is a massive reverse burden of proof being done, simply assuming something on such a scale like this is happening only because a couple dimensions in particular were given proof reaches gigantic levels of speculation and reverses the Occam's razor. Far more than this is needed to prove a universe contains infinite other dimensions, and the fact this went through with no one questioning this raises a lot of issues.
And on that note, another issue with this that is worth bringing up too is that this also takes crazy manipulation of the words "universe", "timeline", and "dimension", terms that everyone here knows are used interchangeably all the time. Zamasu goes at great length to explain this for Ben 10's case as well:
I think what I quoted speaks for itself. These terms are very interchangeably used, extremely often both in fiction and in Ben 10. For us to assume that every universe, like the Prime Universe, contains an infinite amount of dimensions inside of themselves to be considered 2-A structures contained within the multiverse, all because they're called dimensions, is something we shouldn't be doing without a significant amount of evidence and context being given proving this is legitimately the case. And as of now, none of the provided threads where these upgrades were accepted make an attempt at doing this.
The likelihood of Ben 10's Multiverse being considered 2-A is already lowered as I explained in the first section, but even with the benefit of the doubt and we take it as 2-A, the scale of 2-A it's currently at needs major revising.
TL;DR
The Ben 10 Cosmology uses a lot of flimsy evidence and speculation for its current standing. It's evidence for 2-A stands on little legs with only one thing possibly going for it, and the scale of it's 2-A level where infinite dimensions reside inside every universe like the Prime Universe has no evidence whatsoever and uses pure speculation. One way or another, the justifications used to support the verse's current standing, for the reasons given here, are wrong and need to be fixed.
Agree (7): @Toby020, @Everything12, @Maverick_Zero_X, @CurrySenpai, @WIngs_Of_Despair (Agrees with axing 2-A universes), @AKUTO123, @Setsuna_tenma,
Disagree (17): @Sir_Ovens, @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus,@Reiner , @Aachintya31, @omegabronic, @Lynieryz, @Forthegood, @WIngs_Of_Despair (Disagrees with downgrading the Multiverse from 2-A), @Ottavio_Merluzzo , @ImmortalDread, @DemonicDude, @Nierre, @Alexander, @RoTt35, @Lovemovies14, @Guacamolefletcher
Neutral: @Vasco , @Irineu, @Problemexe, @Godernet
Disagree with the thread:
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