Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To clarify, you're trying to prove that infinite dimensions are "impossible" in contrast to Holiday's "possible."

That’s not what I’m saying

Im arguing that the burden of proof that makes infinite dimensions a possibility in the first place hasn’t been met because im arguing this statement isn’t reliable.

“Possibly ratings” are not given just because the possibility of it being infinite Isn’t impossible.

 

[Reiner04]

this statement isn’t reliable.

Has been discussed before, she is reliable and if you think she is not then it's you. It's very well possible as she calculated it mathematically. We assume verse follows proper mathematics unless it's gag show or whatnot.

Let's not derail anymore and let the thread stay for evaluation. Everything has been discussed before in detail already.

 

[Reiner04]

Post in thread '2-A's "Above Baseline" standard' https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-as-above-baseline-standard.61149/post-2016110

Post in thread 'Warhammer Fantasy revision' https://vsbattles.com/threads/warhammer-fantasy-revision.109794/post-3436028

Has been confirmed by ultima and many other staff members that we assume verse follows proper mathematics. If one think I am the only one saying it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Has been discussed before, she is reliable

And you don’t decide that

and if you think she is not then it's you. It's very well possible as she calculated it mathematically. We assume verse follows proper mathematics unless it's gag show or whatnot.

Let's not derail anymore and let the thread stay for evaluation. Everything has been discussed before in detail already.

http://Post in thread '2-A's "Above...as-above-baseline-standard.61149/post-2016110

Post in thread 'Warhammer Fantasy revision' https://vsbattles.com/threads/warhammer-fantasy-revision.109794/post-3436028

Has been confirmed by ultima and many other staff members that we assume verse follows proper mathematics. If one think I am the only one saying it.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what this discussion is about

Those threads specifying that verses follow proper mathematics is saying math in those verses is the same as how math is treated in real life.

Mathematics isn’t evidence of something objectively existing with 100% confirmation like you are suggesting is the case here.

 

[Reiner04]

math in those verses is the same as how math is treated in real life.

That was ultima statement about fiction in general tho, read yourself and see the context.

And about Andy post? It wasn't even about any fiction man.

And yeah we assume verse follows proper mathematics unless it's gag kind of thing. And it's done.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That was ultima statement about fiction in general tho, read yourself and see the context.

And about Andy post? It wasn't even about any fiction man.

Andy was talking about that entire situation about how multiplying infinite by a random set of numbers is still only infinite, so something 2-A can’t be bigger than that without evidence from their series establishing it can be bigger.

Regardless, those discussions have nothing to do with this.

 

[Reiner04]

Andy was talking about that entire situation about how multiplying infinite by a random set of numbers is still only infinite, so something 2-A can’t be bigger than that without evidence from their series establishing it can be bigger.

Because we assume verse follows actual mathematics.

Ultima statement was same.

 

[Reiner04]

Whatever, everything has been discussed. Neither I, nor you to decide who is reliable and who is not. Everyone has provided their evidences and reasons and it's upto evaluation now.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reduce further derailment, please limit the posts to staff Q and A.

In any case, here is the current tally.

Disagree with the thread: @Sir_Ovens , @Firestorm808 , @DarkDragonMedeus

Agree: @Everything12, @Maverick_Zero_X (Pending Opinion Update)

The following Staff's input is appreciated:

@DontTalkDT , @Qawsedf234 , @Eficiente , @AKM sama, @LordGriffin1000 , @Elizhaa , @Planck69

OP:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/

Summary of Current 2-A Universe Cluster Reasonings:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5384625

https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-cosmology-downgrades-other-things-yes-this-is-happening-again.147633/post-5391448

Do you have any questions that need to be answered or clarified?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agree: @Everything12, @Maverick_Zero_X (Pending Opinion Update)

Maverick gave his opinion update on the previous page, just to point this out.

He still agrees with the thread.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Could have sworn this thread was locked yesterday Guess I was either wrong or it got unlocked again.
Don't have the time to go through all this anymore today, but will probably manage tomorrow.

 

[Firestorm808]

Could have sworn this thread was locked yesterday Guess I was either wrong or it got unlocked again.
Don't have the time to go through all this anymore today, but will probably manage tomorrow.

That's fine. Thank you for your participation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Honestly...

I do think that Universes being 2-A sized is bunk, but 2-B size for them can still be a thing based on this.

2-A Multiverse based on Infinite Timestream seems still reasonable imo.

 

[Firestorm808]

Please refrain from further non-staff posts (unless answering a Staff's question) and derailment. We can discuss other topics once this thread has concluded.

 

[DontTalkDT]

for the universe 2-A:
now the important part for the universe itself being 2-A is in the crossover(that it is considered canon here) of ben 10 and generator rex professor holiday says that there are infinite dimensions, and ben said that he had been in the "parallel worlds" all the time even with only being in dimensions like the null void and legerdomain, which are considered part of "the universe", so the dimension that are talked about in the crossover would be the "in universe" dimension, thus making "the universe" in its totality infinite dimensional

Hmmm... that's the stuff presented in the OP. Alright.

now for the multiverse being infinite:
different timelines/universes in ben 10 are created from the different possibilities, aka many worlds interpretation, which would be 2-B, but we have a confirmation that the time stream is infinite, with the different timelines branching from it, and with it being infinite in length, make it so that the number of universes in its totality infinite, since for someone outside or in the same plane as the time stream all the possibilities would already exist branching along the time stream, being only 2-B for a "present" perspective as in how many exist in the "now", and the totality, aka all of time would be infinite since the possibilities would branch infinitely
with these two Wog supporting infinite universes

Y'know, the same guy that says that there are different possibilities mentions right after that there are "hundreds" of them. And depending on how the cosmology works a branching infinite timestream, doesn't necessarily have to branch infinite times. It depends on the rules upon which the branches happen.

(Reminds me a bit on fixpoints in time in Doctor Who, which are just random events in history that can't be changed via time travel with no clear pattern on why those in particular and not others. i.e. sometimes time rules are weird)

Anyway, in isolation not the most solid evidence.

• The Space Beyond contains all Branch Universe Clusters.
• Per Paradox, the Clusters Branch to infinity.

So, I'm assuming I don't need to know the exact definition of those terms. Do we have context to tell us what the "Branch to infinity" statement means exactly? That sounds like it could be interpreted in various ways.

The Map of Infinity

If the map covers just 17 dimensions it's not that complete after all, eh? lol

---

Still neutral for now. Just trying to connect and sort everything.

 

[Firestorm808]

@DontTalkDT

Thank you for your participation.

To reiterate, the currently discussion is on the number of parallel dimensions in one universe: Rex, Ben, Dagon, Null Void, etc.

Do have any immediate questions, comments, or concerns?

 

[Reiner04]

It depends on the rules upon which the branches happen.

Will not interfere much but will only answer this one: Quantum mechanics that said, Many world's interpretation.

It's not based off typical past change or anything like Dragonball but simply Quantum mechanics.

But multiverse is not main point of this discussion (could be done later on) but the universe itself, what universe is root off the entire multiverse discussion and this CRT (you may very well have guessed why so).

you can ask any Question regarding the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, DontTalk.

 

[Reiner04]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ah, alright. I didn't really realize that it's particularly important whether the infinite dimensions are in the universe or not. Let's focus on the in-universe part for now.

I can accept that the universe has universe-sized dimensions. At least several, like those mentioned.

What infinite is concerned, I have a hard time deciding.
I can see how Holiday's statement can be considered a not very reliable source. While smart in general, she seems to have no particular expertise in this particular matter.

Likewise, I'm not someone that much favors twitter statements. At least not replies to questions. Although, the bigger problem might be that the twitter statements are not specific regarding whether those infinite universes are in the universe. In fact, some of them seem to point to the multiverse in particular. So even taking them as true why would they support infinite dimensions per universe?

 

[Reiner04]

So even taking them as true why would they support infinite dimensions per universe?

From the comic, Doctor holiday statement was supported by Ben as well while running away in hurry, ben said to Rex, There are millions of dimensions, how did you find this earth?

The same statement and reason for why should Rex never be able to reach Ben's dimension given by Doctor holiday but just amount of dimensions mentioned is different in the comic and yes it's secondary canon as has been accepted already. From here it was accepted that universe has "2B, possibly 2A" as Ben could be throwing a random number to show how big the universe is (has been done in alot of fiction, such as crises of infinite earth's) as he was in too hurry unlike Doctor holiday who gave that statement calmly and based off calculation.

But later on Universe is infinite statement came from WOG as universe is ben 10 is more like a multiverse of dimensions and everytime universe has been mentioned in the series it had included the dimensions inside it considered together.

This is where we get that solid 2A for the universe.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Have a question or two to point out but will do so when I’m home from work later.

 

[Reiner04]

Point out any question but keep in mind that DT has no problem with those dimensions mentioned by holiday are in universe dimensions. We don't have to go back and forth on the same thing.

 

[Greenshifter]

I can see how Holiday's statement can be considered a not very reliable source. While smart in general, she seems to have no particular expertise in this particular matter.

Would her in the moment thinking being scaled to a Supergenius level help?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I know I was asked to comment here but I'm just not up to it right now (Still revising other verses that need references/scans, dealing with real life issue, and I'm all around no feeling well enough to give enough feedback as I haven't had much time to keep up with my health) so I've only been responding to small/easy threads. (If you've been on my wall, you'd already have seen the message I left)

I'll remain neutral, since I can see both sides have a point but I'm unable to go through the threads entirety, my apologies.

 

[Firestorm808]

I know I was asked to comment here but I'm just not up to it right now (Still revising other verses that need references/scans, dealing with real life issue, and I'm all around no feeling well enough to give enough feedback as I haven't had much time to keep up with my health) so I've only been responding to small/easy threads. (If you've been on my wall, you'd already have seen the message I left)

I'll remain neutral, since I can see both sides have a point but I'm unable to go through the threads entirety, my apologies.

That's fine. You have other priorities to deal with. Take care.

 

[Firestorm808]

What infinite is concerned, I have a hard time deciding.
I can see how Holiday's statement can be considered a not very reliable source. While smart in general, she seems to have no particular expertise in this particular matter.

To clarify, the use of the in-verse scientific theory and the actual existance of many dimensions prior was used to justify the prior accepted thread's "Possibly 2-A rating."

 

[Eficiente]

I have big issues with the reasoning used to claim that Ben's universe is more that 1 universe.

I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series).

When the universe clusters get detroyed and only No Watch Ben's universe cluster remains it doesn't mean that each universe has other dimensions, but that they were not targeted.

The idea of ignoring how Rex's universe is a universe because that's from his show and not said is the crossover when both are canon to each other doesn't make any level of sense at all, it's a universe, it doesn't have a Ben with a watch, wanna know why? Because both separated shows do their own things and that can create inconsistencies, the short version is just "it's an inconsistency". Things like beings being banished "from the universe itself" into Null Void explicitly mean that pocket dimension isn't in the universe, when we used an inconsistent technicality to claim otherwise, ignoring the other reason that makes that wrong. One thing is a verse being able to have 1 universe with many dimensions in it, another whole other thing is to make that up when it's not stated and is contradicted by those dimensions being outside the universe/time/space.

I'm sure some will think, if not necessarily say, that why doesn't the Space Beyond have other realities other than "our universe"-like universes, that if it shows those shouldn't it show everything? No. That's a headcanon, the place that has universes but in present tense can have whatever rules the writers felt like, non-"our universe"-like universes too can have whatever rules in terms of positioning/structure and what makes their names all not just "universe" if some are sometimes called that. It's not mandatory that if you are in some place that's the space between universes it has to also be the space between dimensions when there's any implied difference in value between univeres and dimension.
---
@Maverick_Zero_X Put very well I what I think of the multiverse being infinite, I agree with a "Possibly" for the same reasons.

Pocket dimensions can be infinite in size, their "thing" is that they're either literally in a smaller space on the outside than how they are in the inside or simply small portals/doors/whatever things are used to travel to them, while they're not even necessarily something that exists inside the universe. That said the evidence we have for Null Void being infinite is pretty barebones and insufficient.

I still agree with deeming that comic canon, since I'm ok with a simple yes or no to answer something based on canon is canon.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have big issues with the reasoning used to claim that Ben's universe is more that 1 universe.

I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series).

When the universe clusters get detroyed and only No Watch Ben's universe cluster remains it doesn't mean that each universe has other dimensions, but that they were not targeted.

The idea of ignoring how Rex's universe is a universe because that's from his show and not said is the crossover when both are canon to each other doesn't make any level of sense at all, it's a universe, it doesn't have a Ben with a watch, wanna know why? Because both separated shows do their own things and that can create inconsistencies, the short version is just "it's an inconsistency". Things like beings being banished "from the universe itself" into Null Void explicitly mean that pocket dimension isn't in the universe, when we used an inconsistent technicality to claim otherwise, ignoring the other reason that makes that wrong. One thing is a verse being able to have 1 universe with many dimensions in it, another whole other thing is to make that up when it's not stated and is contradicted by those dimensions being outside the universe/time/space.

I'm sure some will think, if not necessarily say, that why doesn't the Space Beyond have other realities other than "our universe"-like universes, that if it shows those shouldn't it show everything? No. That's a headcanon, the place that has universes but in present tense can have whatever rules the writers felt like, non-"our universe"-like universes too can have whatever rules in terms of positioning/structure and what makes their names all not just "universe" if some are sometimes called that. It's not mandatory that if you are in some place that's the space between universes it has to also be the space between dimensions when there's any implied difference in value between univeres and dimension.
---
@Maverick_Zero_X Put very well I what I think of the multiverse being infinite, I agree with a "Possibly" for the same reasons.

Pocket dimensions can be infinite in size, their "thing" is that they're either literally in a smaller space on the outside than how they are in the inside or simply small portals/doors/whatever things are used to travel to them, while they're not even necessarily something that exists inside the universe. That said the evidence we have for Null Void being infinite is pretty barebones and insufficient.

I still agree with deeming that comic canon, since I'm ok with a simple yes or no to answer something based on canon is canon.

The structure of the Ben 10 dimensions is similar to that of the MCU, each branch has its own null void, Ledgerdomain, Dagon, etc just as each MCU branch has the Dark Dimension and others.

 

[Reiner04]

I think efi is unaware of entirety of how upgrades happened.

 

[Reiner04]

@Eficiente
To clarify, we are at the point that we are discussing if each universe has infinite dimensions or not. Only thing that is left if we can take the infinite dimensions statement of holiday as reliable source added with wog or not. A single universe has been long gone 6 months ago. This thread is entirely on it.

 

[Eficiente]

The structure of the Ben 10 dimensions is similar to that of the MCU, each branch has its own null void, Ledgerdomain, Dagon, etc just as each MCU branch has the Dark Dimension and others.

I read your blog on it saying the same, there and here I find it really not ok that you're using other verse to talk about this topic, let it stand on its own. Tell me how it is that it stands on its own that the Null Void, Ledgerdomain, Dagon, etc not branch on their own rather than because the universe branches off.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Back, what are conclusions?

 

[Reiner04]

Back, what are conclusions?

Dunno girl, it's a OP thing at this point, he should take care. This thread from here on will be all over the place.

 

[Reiner04]

Let's just say efi agrees with the thread and move on as per what OP is claiming.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sorry for the delay, I’ve been dealing with some unexpected and unfortunate issues IRL that are preoccupying me.

I’ll make the comments I said I would earlier as soon as I can.

 

[Firestorm808]

I read your blog on it saying the same, there and here I find it really not ok that you're using other verse to talk about this topic, let it stand on its own. Tell me how it is that it stands on its own that the Null Void, Ledgerdomain, Dagon, etc not branch on their own rather than because the universe branches off.

I'm just using the MCU as an analogy. Referencing the MCU wasn't even used in the earlier threads.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll be able to discuss more in depth later today. Currently away from home.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have big issues with the reasoning used to claim that Ben's universe is more that 1 universe.

I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series).

When the universe clusters get detroyed and only No Watch Ben's universe cluster remains it doesn't mean that each universe has other dimensions, but that they were not targeted.

The idea of ignoring how Rex's universe is a universe because that's from his show and not said is the crossover when both are canon to each other doesn't make any level of sense at all, it's a universe, it doesn't have a Ben with a watch, wanna know why? Because both separated shows do their own things and that can create inconsistencies, the short version is just "it's an inconsistency". Things like beings being banished "from the universe itself" into Null Void explicitly mean that pocket dimension isn't in the universe, when we used an inconsistent technicality to claim otherwise, ignoring the other reason that makes that wrong. One thing is a verse being able to have 1 universe with many dimensions in it, another whole other thing is to make that up when it's not stated and is contradicted by those dimensions being outside the universe/time/space.

You are suggesting that these other dimensions exist outside The Space Beyond. This has never been suggested by the source material. Dimensions like the Null Void, Ledgerdomain, and Dagon's World are closely tied to Ben's Dimension.

When the Null Void was made, what is more reasonable? That it was created nearby to Ben's Dimension or that it was created outside the Space Beyond?

With Rex's world, when trying to find a void to dump Alpha, is it more reasonable that they opened a portal to a nearby dimension that's empty or that they opened a portal from outside the Space Beyond to inside a Space beyond of a Null Void dimension of a particular Ben Universe.

The same goes for the being going to and from Legerdomain. Otherwise, Gwen would have senses that extend past the Space Beyond.

If all other dimensions were outside the space beyond, they would presumably have their own space beyond. When Dagon went out to conquer other dimensions, he would have had to leave his space beyond to come to Ben's and 99+ more dimensions with their own Space beyond.

Drilling a hole through the dimensional space-time wall to escape the null void and go back to Earth wouldn't work if they were outside the space beyond.

By Occam's razor, it is more reasonable that these different dimensions are in proximity to each other.

 

[Reiner04]

The point is that there were several evidences about why nullvoid is a part of the universe but not another another.

• anur phatus that is a in-between alternate/inter dimensional realm that is a part of the universe (clear in its own that universe contains more than one dimension) grid the nullvoid present in the unknown region of the universe with the regular space.
• Servantis while still being in the nullvoid referred nullvoid and Ben's dimension combined as a universe while saying No one in this universe or any other should bring ben Tennyson back ever nullvoid is not a another universe not in Ben 10 lore or anything but just a prison for universe worst of the worsts
• Kevin who literally knew that nullvoid is a alternate dimension and have spent half of his life in it already confirmed that whatever he was aware of is a part of the universe and thought that universe is everything. To which professor paradox said there is always far more to the reality than we imagine (referring to the multiverse)
• It cannot be another universe or part of another timestream with its own system and branches disconnected with Ben's dimension because if it was then ben and others should had a hard time finding which nullvoid branch concern s the issue of particular branch they live in and would have messed up everything, so it's just logical to say they're the part of same timeline and branching with it in its parallel together.
• legerdomain is literally stated to be a part of the universe by Gwen who was specifically searching the entire universe that includes nullvoid and legerdomain.
• bladder dimension is stated to be a part of the universe stated by rook.
• Rex dimension is simply same as of nullvoid and others as it can be reached by like device and it's not a another universe, never stated nor implied and contradictory at that to even think as dimensional disruptor can only connect in-universe dimensions.
• Dimension 12 was a part of the universe through kevin's statement who was aware of it but yet said universe is everything whatsover.
• Breach dimension is a part of the universe.

This is the summary of my upgrade for those who likely missed and no other franchise was used to get it a stand. It was accepted on its own stand. Check all the previous threads before claiming that we used MCU or something else to get it accepted.