Asta vs Hagoromo Otsutsuki - Anti-Magic GG vs COAT GG

[Epsilon_R]

brother stop commenting if you're not gonna read the yap session we had earlier going into all of this

Mana is a supernatural energy inside some people's life force, not everyone.

That's outright wrong, it exists in everyone. That's the reason why they can even use magic in the first place.

as some people can have no mana yet have a life force, like Asta

Asta is the only person without Mana, hell, he's literally stated to be the flaw of the world because no thing should be born without Mana

 

[Epsilon_R]

No?, its not common but Asta is certainty not the only one. theres an entire term used to define people who dont have magic, those who are hated by Mana, you cannot predate a term thats entire existence solely exists to describe a specific group of people

Hated by Mana by no means equates to having none. I don't even understand why you even thought it was a common term or anything

Heck, the entire narrative of Black Clover is about Asta being the only one without Mana. It doesn't help your case that we haven't seen anyone else without Mana in the series. It's basically your headcanon at this point

 

[Godernet]

I'm not spinning anything. If anything, I'm the one simplifying these drawn out explanations. There's a substantial difference between stamina and chakra considering one actually requires you to mix to generate a new of energy, while it does not exist in the prior of state of unmixed physical and spiritual energies.

so how does mixing the energies make if not a life force energy?

are you going to say stamina isn't life force?

Just like how mana and ki are required to create magical power. Uzamakis have a a chakra pools because they have a lot of life force via physical energy. And let's not forget that life force is affiliated with physical energy, not spiritual energy per data book.

you're talking about Yin and Yang release which is something completely different from the mind and body aspects of stamina that create chakra

these are elemental styles lol

most people can't even use these despite every shinobi using mental and physical energies to create chakra

Spiritual energy isn't life force in Naruto, physical energy contains it. As I stated before, the data book makes it clear that vitality and life force is tied physical energy, just like ki.

again, these are the yin and yang element styles not an explanation on chakra.

You mean Asta? the MC that's considered s freak of nature? the only person born without magical power in verse? There's a reason why he's considered an anomaly in verse, his future can't even be read. Lucius literally considers his existence a violation of of the natural order

the frequency of it doesn't matter, the context does

mana isn't a life force, it is something that exists in the life force of people, a magical component that allows magic to exist, not a literal life force.

Now I'm being semantically? Last time I checked exhaustion of stamina and chakra = death, not just chakra.

like i already explained those two words are used interchanbly for almost the entire series after the fundamentals are explained to the genin early on

i even gave examples of that.

Mana and life energy fuse to generate magical power, you're saying the same thing in different ways. You do realize Asta can also detect magical power via ki sensing? that's how he deflect spells. So yeah, magical power does have life energy considering Asta can't sense mana, but can sense ki.

they can be intertwined but as we know, ki isn't negged by anti-magic by itself, mana is because of the magical properties, so without that magical property, chakra isn't getting negged since its solely life force.
https://i.ibb.co/PC4gqpZ/Screenshot-20240205-163014-Shonen-Jump.jpg

His anti-magic has killed life, hence why he has limited death manipulation.

in what context because everyone that touches his swords doesn't just die.

Everyone in BC was born with magical power except Asta. He's considered an anomaly in his verse to the point that Lucius considers him a violation to the laws of nature. And that "life force" system is coupled with another energy source to generate magical power just like how the life force" system in Naruto coupled with another energy source to generate chakra. So the SBA would still apply given the similarities.

this is under the assumption that only physical energy is apart of their life force when they both are

 

[Loyd]

The more i read the more i'm convinced both verses are similar enough to be equalised, Asta would only have a problem nulling SP senjutsu and the ki equivelant unless it was refuted earlier.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Mana is a supernatural energy inside some people's life force, not everyone.

It's the opposite, vital energy is one of the by-products of mana,Mana is the fundamental aspect that is at the origin of someone's soul, and vital force is just one aspect that belongs to the soul.

 

[Godernet]

That's outright wrong, it exists in everyone. That's the reason why they can even use magic in the first place.

Asta is the only person without Mana, hell, he's literally stated to be the flaw of the world because no thing should be born without Mana

I already said this but the frequency doesn't matter

life force can exist without that magical factor and even has its own power system is my main point.


chakra is soley life force

it would take leaps and bounds of mental gymnastics to equal magical factor + life force = mana is the same as life force split into two factors = chakra

rather than just life force = life force

 

[Godernet]

The more i read the more i'm convinced both verses are similar enough to be equalised, Asta would only have a problem nulling SP senjutsu and the ki equivelant unless it was refuted earlier.

the ki equivalent is chakra

 

[Godernet]

I did it seemed you guys were arguing about if mana = physical or mental energy.

nope

Other then Asta do we have any other examples? Cause it kinda seems rattish to use Asta as the only example of why mana doesn't equal chakra when with the scans provided it does under SBA.

how is it rattish to use an example given by the story of life existing without mana when its the literal MC

Ki would be more like stamina maybe not chakra like you and others are claiming.

just saying that it is doesn't prove that it is.

It doesn't though. That's false to the high degree of falsehoods.

just saying that it is doesn't prove that it is. x2

go be a goon somewhere else

 

[Loyd]

Does anyone here disagree ki = Chakra? Asta anti magic isn't a blanket neg against all forms of UES so any Chakra based hax from Hag should work. Can we move on and debate now

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Hated by Mana by no means equates to having none.

Okay what does being unloved by Mana mean then?

I don't even understand why you even thought it was a common term or anything

I never said its a common term, i said its a term that exists to define specific people, terms dont spring out of nothing

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Does anyone here disagree ki = Chakra? Asta anti magic isn't a blanket neg against all forms of UES so any Chakra based hax from Hag should work. Can we move on and debate now

per our page on Powernull Anti Magic cant negate: "While useful against magic users, this ability cannot nullify non-magical supernatural abilities, such as those based on chi.

you have a scenario that even if you assumed that mana and chakra was the same, chakra would be occupying two different categories at the same time, and each category has a opposite reaction to Anti Magic

 

[Epsilon_R]

I already said this but the frequency doesn't matter

life force can exist without that magical factor and even has its own power system is my main point.

Mana literally exists within Life Force, so no, it can't.

And it's seems you still don't get the difference between Magic Power and Mana

chakra is soley life force

it would take leaps and bounds of mental gymnastics to equal magical factor + life force = mana to life force split into two factors = chakra

rather than just life force = life force

Chakra is created from life energy, but it becomes a different energy, still derivated from it, but different nonetheless.

 

[Godernet]

a lot of people don't like it for goonish reasons.

and again if we go with what's accepted on the profiles rather than the limited knowledge of people that don't exactly follow the verse, chakra is accepted as Life Force.

the closest equivalent would be Ki as it is literally life force, not a power system that incorporates life force with another magical component.

so rather than trying to ignore whats accepted in favor of headcanon

so let's just go by what's currently accepted unless y'all wanna go make some CRTs and get rolled.

let's just equate the purely life force-based power system with the other purely life force-based power system, based on how things are currently accepted on the wiki and move on.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Okay what does being unloved by Mana mean then?

I never said its a common term, i said its a term that exists to define specific people, terms dont spring out of nothing

That's not a term to begin with, that's the problem.

 

[Epsilon_R]

let's just equate the purely life force-based power system with the other purely life force-based power system, based on how things are currently accepted on the wiki and move on.

You said things accepted by the wiki, right? Aight

"Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

So ?

 

[Godernet]

Mana literally exists within Life Force, so no, it can't.

existing doesnt mean essential, asta is literally proof of that.

we don't just assume that everyone in Nard would suddenly spawn a magical factor in their life force just because Verse Equalization.

And it's seems you still don't get the difference between Magic Power and Mana

it seems you don't get the part that it doesnt matter

life force can exist without mana and has its own power system that cant be nulled in BC. thats all that needs to be said.

Chakra is created from life energy, but it becomes a different energy, still derivated from it,

its more than just "deriving from it,"

it takes both halves of life force and smashes it together, nothing more,

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

No?, its not common but Asta is certainty not the only one.

Only Asta has no magic

There is another character but he decided to sacrifice his mana to get a special eye

There is no other person without mana as a born condition

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

You said things accepted by the wiki, right? Aight

"Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

So ?

Then Chakra would just become a form of Magic that Asta cant negate based on our Powernull standards

 

[Godernet]

You said things accepted by the wiki, right? Aight

"Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

Anti-Magic: Abilities that focus on nullifying magic, potentially even rejecting physical characteristics augmented by magic or making it so that the user cannot be harmed by magic at all. This can negate spells, from simple blasts to more complicated effects, and may be capable of stripping magical items of their enchantments and magical properties.

While useful against magic users, this ability cannot nullify non-magical supernatural abilities, such as those based on chi.


Chakra Manipulation

• Energy Manipulation and Energy Projection (One can "mold chakra" through the two component energies of physical and spiritual energy[31], one can then project it in a myriad of different ways through the Chakra Points around the body.

(if you click on the chakra manip link it takes you to the chi page btw.)

Can y'all stop wasting time on this goofy argument?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Only Asta has no magic

There is another character but he decided to sacrifice his mana to get a special eye

There is no other person without mana as a born condition

unironically not helping your case here lol

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The more i read the more i'm convinced both verses are similar enough to be equalised, Asta would only have a problem nulling SP senjutsu and the ki equivelant unless it was refuted earlier.

Thank you.

What makes SP Senjutsu inherently different from Senjutsu?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Only Asta has no magic

There is another character but he decided to sacrifice his mana to get a special eye

There is no other person without mana as a born condition

He lost his magic, not mana

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

He lost his magic, not mana

Only magic? I will read that again then

 

[Loyd]

Then Chakra would just become a form of Magic that Asta cant negate based on our Powernull standards

This was my sentiment aswell, whether you wanted to equalise systems or not.

What makes SP Senjutsu inherently different from Senjutsu?

Alien senjutsu energy iirc

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

unironically not helping your case here lol

At least I don't say "there are other people without mana" when is completely false and the only exception is just being unable to use magic power, not mana itself "lol"

 

[KingogKings777]

Does anyone here disagree ki = Chakra?

Yes.

 

[Godernet]

Thank you.

What makes SP Senjutsu inherently different from Senjutsu?

one is external, based on nature, and limited

the other is a unique, internal, and permanent energy source only possible to acquire via being a juubi jinchuuriki(host for the ten tails.) or being given the chakra by a previous owner of six paths senjutsu, it gives you a complete comprehension of nature and chakra and is considered something completely different from regular chakra or senjutsu, along with giving you several abilities and resistances.

 

[Xinsignia1]

so how does mixing the energies make if not a life force energy?

are you going to say stamina isn't life force?

Because it's transformed into something separate that you can expend independent of your life force.
Speaking of, inanimate objects such as rocks and other things that aren't alive have ki , so are you going to tell me that rocks have life force and chakra now? And let's not forget that magical power also has ki considering Asta can use it to detect the ki magical attacks and react to them?

you're talking about Yin and Yang release which is something completely different from the mind and body aspects of stamina that create chakra

these are elemental styles lol

most people can't even use these despite every shinobi using mental and physical energies to create chakra

Um nah, it's definitely talking about the context of spiritual and physical energies. "by administering the vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of a "yang" power he would breath life into that form" Physical energy is associated with life.

again, these are the yin and yang element styles not an explanation on chakra.

It's talkin about the components of the chakra as well. "Mental and Physical energy that us yin and yang release"

the frequency of it doesn't matter, the context does

mana isn't a life force, it is something that exists in the life force of people, a magical component that allows magic to exist, not a literal life force.

Yeah, the context does matter which is why your point doesn't really makes sense. Asta is anomaly that lacks an energy source that is canocally stated to be fundamental to their universe, which is why Lucius wants to kill him. oh and I stated earlier inanimate object also have ki, are you going to tell me they're alive next?

like i already explained those two words are used interchanbly for almost the entire series after the fundamentals are explained to the genin early on

i even gave examples of that.

And I also gave examples of what Kishimoto put on the table.

they can be intertwined but as we know, ki isn't negged by anti-magic by itself, mana is because of the magical properties, so without that magical property, chakra isn't getting negged since its solely life force.
https://i.ibb.co/PC4gqpZ/Screenshot-20240205-163014-Shonen-Jump.jpg

Something definitely got negged there. And no, chakra isn't life force. It's created from it though (physical energy)

in what context because everyone that touches his swords doesn't just die.

The more magic power you can resist the anti-magic within it. Licht grabbed Asta's sword and flooded it with magical power Not to mention it was stated in early BC that Asta unconsciously emits and shuts off the anti-magic power in the swords, that's how he was able to go through Finrals portals with anti-magic swords during the Bulls vs Vetto battle in the sea bed temple arc.

this is under the assumption that only physical energy is apart of their life force when they both are

It's not an assumption, it's was literally stated.

 

[KingogKings777]

nope

So that wasn't you and others in posts 162/124/140/146 arguing about mental and physical energy?

how is it rattish to use an example given by the story of life existing without mana when its the literal MC

Makes claims theres other like asta, proceeds to only uses asta which is the only character thats like that in the verse.

just saying that it is doesn't prove that it is.
just saying that it is doesn't prove that it is. x2

Wait you didn't read the previous scans and post?

go be a goon somewhere else

GoonogGoons777 will go where he pleases.

 

[Godernet]

Because it's transformed into something separate that you can expend independent of your life force.
Speaking of, inanimate objects suck as rocks and other things that aren't alive have ki , so are you going to tell me that rocks have life force and chakra now?

planets have chakra

they obviously arent 1 to 1

but equating a life force energy to another life force energy

and a natural energy to a natural energy is being generous to the verse equalization stuff but they are close enough.

And let's not forget that magical power also has ko considering Asta can use it to detect the ki magical attacks and react to them?

it having it isn't the same as it being it

Um nah, it's definitely talking about the context of spiritual and physical energies. "by administering the vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of a "yang" power he would breath life into that form. Physical energy is associated with life.

you read Yin and Yang release and think that's an explanation on chakra?

again those are elements.

Yeah, the context does matter which is why your point doesn't really makes sense. Asta is anomaly that lacks an energy source that is canocally stated to be fundamental to their universe, which is why Lucius wants to kill him.

him being an anomaly doesn't matter because we're talking about what Ki and Mana fundamentally are, not the likelihood of nard characters having mana if they went into BC.

his existence shows that magical power isnt an essential part of life force, it is however a heavily likely aspect of most of the inhabitants of the BC worlds life forces.

Ki supports that by bringing in a power set that taps into that life force specifically and does not require any mana to use.

And I also gave exmaples of what Kishimoto put on the table.

and misrepresented the context behind most of them

And no, chakra isn't life force. It's create from it though (physical energy)

then go make a CRT on that then because that's not what was accepted.

The more magic power you can resist the anti-magic within it. Licht grabbed Asta's sword and flooded it with magical power Not to mention it was stated in early BC that Asta unconsciously emits and shuts off the anti-magic power in the swords, that's how he was able to go through Finrals portals with anti-magic swords during the Bulls vs Vetto battle in the sea bed temple arc.

ehh cause there are definitely examples of him using Ki when he's shrouded by Anti Magic for his black forms or times where he smacks someone with a sword that is covered in mana yet they don't just die.

It's not an assumption, it's was literally stated.

go get that accepted then.

 

[Godernet]

So that wasn't you and others in posts 162/124/140/146 arguing about mental and physical energy?

nah, must've been some other Godernet i guess, common name.

Makes claims theres other like asta, proceeds to only uses asta which is the only character thats like that in the verse.

i didn't claim there were other people than asta, just that because we know asta exists, we know its possible, you don't need 15 examples to make a point.

Wait you didn't read the previous scans and post?

your previous posts had points I already went over or just didn't matter.

GoonogGoons777 will go where he pleases.

brb imma go get the belt

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Saying chakra isn't a life force because it's made up of physical and mental energies is the equivalent of saying blood isn't a life force because blood cells are made out of water and ions. There's no such thing as a living thing with physical and and mental energy but no chakra, so yes this is semantics because by definition if the thing that you remove is required for your continued existence then it is by definition a life force.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The entire existence of the chakra pathway system which connects to every cell in the body and organ should tell you if it's a life energy.

 

[Xinsignia1]

planets have chakra

they obviously arent 1 to 1

but equating a life force energy to another life force energy

and a natural energy to a natural energy is being generous to the verse equalization stuff but they are close enough.

The planet is a biome, that's substantially different from an inanimate object, that's not even the same. The planet isn't inanimate, it's a rotating sphere that supports life. Life energy on the other hand is simply the energy of movement /animation which is associated with the physicality. So no they're not "close enough" all things with an actual life force have magical power except Asta.

it having it isn't the same as it being it

Just like chakra, would you look at that.

you read Yin and Yang release and think that's an explanation on chakra?

again those are elements.

and it talks about the energies associated with ying yang energy which is physical energy, and spiritual energy.

him being an anomaly doesn't matter because we're talking about what Ki and Mana fundamentally are, not the likelihood of nard characters having mana if they went into BC.

his existence shows that magical power isnt an essential part of life force, it is however a heavily likely aspect of most of the inhabitants of the BC worlds life forces.

Ki supports that by bringing in a power set that taps into that life force specifically and does not require any mana to use.

Spiritual energy and physical energy are fundamentally different, just like mana and ki. You do realize "mental" is associated with the intangible and "physical" with the tangible? Rock's don't have magical power power, but they do have ki.

and misrepresented the context behind most of them

then go make a CRT on that then because that's not whats accepted.

I don't need to make a CRT considering the SBA still allows magic power and chakra to be equalized.

ehh cause there are definitely examples of him using Ki when he's shrouded by Anti Magic for his black forms or times where he smacks someone with a sword that is covered in mana yet they don't just die.

There's been characters that have tanked anti-magic attacks in the series wit their bodies with minimal damage that's how scaling generally works.

go get that accepted then.

Nice argument, anyway the SBA is still supported, how about you go change that?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Saying chakra isn't a life force because it's made up of physical and mental energies is the equivalent of saying blood isn't a life force because blood cells are made out of water and ions. There's no such thing as a living thing with physical and and mental energy but no chakra, so yes this is semantics because by definition if the thing that you remove is required for your continued existence then it is by definition a life force.

No.

Chakra is made up of a life energy equivalent (mental/spiritual energy) and a supernatural physical energy. The latter is equalized with mana.

Chakra must have both to be known as Chakra. In BC life energy (Ki) and supernatural energy (mana) can be combined to produce magic power the same way life energy (spiritual energy/ ying release) and supernatural energy (physical energy/yang release) can be used to produce chakra.

They’re perfectly equalizable under SBA.

 

[Godernet]

I don't need to make a CRT considering the SBA still allows magic power and chakra to be equalized.

congrats and our power null standards would just neg that since Anti Magic cant affect chi power systems

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

No.

Chakra is made up of a life energy equivalent (mental/spiritual energy) and a supernatural physical energy. The latter is equalized with mana.

Chakra must have both to be known as Chakra. In BC life energy (Ki) and supernatural energy (mana) can be combined to produce magic power the same way life energy (spiritual energy/ ying release) and supernatural energy (physical energy/yang release) can be used

No the chakra pathway helps stimulate the heart and create the process that draws the energy from the physical cells of the body that's used in creating more chakra. It's a life force.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

congrats and our power null standards would just neg that since Anti Magic cant affect chi power systems

Yeah this would make further arguments kinda moot anyway

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No chakra stimulates the heart and creates the process that draws the energy from the physical cells of the body that's used in creating more chakra. It's a life force.

All you said was the body draws out supernatural energy and proceeded to call it life force.

Spiritual energy is the life force here because it’s based on the literal human spirit and consciousness. Y’know, stuff that makes one possess life

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

All you said was the body draws out supernatural energy and proceeded to call it life force.

It's life force...because...they..depend..on..it.. to live...
Unlike Mana,which is never stated or shown to be required for life to exist.