Asta (Post-Timeskip) Vs Demon King (Nanatsu No Taizai) - 4th Strongest High 6-C (Non-Smurfs) - "Grace"

[TheGreatJedi13]

NPI is only for purification then or power null.

if that is the case I don't see how he can put DK down permanently

As i said he can amp his speed so his would be higher than dk so no he's faster than dk

You really misunderstood i didn't say that one projectile could deal a damage that would kill the dk immediately, i said if one is fairly big and if spammed it guess what would happen

depending on how much is his speed amp. speed equalize rule makes it so speed amps cannot make one 4x faster than the other else it would be speedblitz

so at best 4 attacks to 1 if his speed amp is that high still 1 attack that would be soul manip which he is likely to lead with would definitely be lethal against Asta as he never has soul resistance in the first place

 

[Epsilon_R]

They're higher-ranking demons then Meliodas and such have inherently higher resistances compared those lower then themselves? It's something i'm not going to explain in-depth given it's already accepted on his profile.

We don't scale hax unless there is a clear reason to do so, you need to prove that Meliodas resisted that before of his rank as a demon and nothing else.

Having more layers, regardless of how many people you've "purified" is always greater then someone who has more numbers then your resistances but less layers. especially for Soul-Based Purification.

Having higher numbers has always been superior to having layered resistance to far lower numbers. That's exactly the reason why someone with several layers of heat resistance, like 300°C, will never be enough to resist someone who can produce heat equal to the temperature of the Sun.

The same thing applies to mind and soul manip and therefore would apply to purification as well.

Asta's purification > DK's resistance. period.

No it doesn't, DK isn't forced by plot to not use his hax's within this fight and such would most likely use then when all of his magical-based shit is getting null'd. Yes it does given my previous explanation.

You know what you're doing here? Headcanon.

You are assuming DK will do stuffs to Asta that he never does usually, even when he's about to die.

"State of mind: In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws"

Forced by plot or not doesn't matter, He doesn't use it in character then he doesn't use it.

That's unquantifiable my guy, that doesn't answer my original question which was for you to contextualize the differences needed for one-shots to occur in Black Clover. You saying the increase between Base Asta and Black Asta is so massive that it can one-shot people who gave Base Asta troubles isn't a quantification.

DK < Asta
Asta ~ people on par with him < Black Asta


If Black Asta one-shots people that are on par with him in base form, and that DK is far weaker than his base, Black Asta would one shot DK with ease.

I'm asking for a concrete number that's consistently shown to be correct.

I don't even know why that would matter, but Zora has one shot opponents by making traps that doubles the strength of the spell and sending it at the the opponents.

You also have Spirit Dive Yuno who could one shot characters that forced him and Asta to transform.
Spirit Dive is accepted as a 2× boost in power, and Black Asta is comparable to Spirit Dive just like Base Asta is comparable to Base Yuno

Mereoleona and was able to one shot her opponent (who was on par with her) by doubling the power of her punch

Fuegoleon did the exact same thing separately.

Zenon, with a 50% increase was able to one shot and technically kill Yuno.

So about a two times difference is more than enough to one shot in BC. Here, Asta has a 3.25× advantage and can have a further increase with Black Asta. You even have a quantifiable number for Black Asta via Spirit Dive's boost

Alright then he's 3x in base still doesn't matter given 1: That isn't massive AP difference and 2: This version of Demon King scales above the 200 Gigaton's number given he's stronger in this form then his full power form which is 200Gigatons.

So they basically have relative/around the same level of AP so that still isn't a win-con for Asta.

Are ******* serious right now? Saying a 3.25× AP advantage doesn't matter is already wrong as it's nearly half the difference needed to one-shot, but now you're trying to quite literally bullshit you way through that gap by saying "muh he scales higher than 200 Gigatons" and I'm definitely not okay with that.

When the gap between the two ratings is extremely close, like 200 GT and 226 GT, you can say that they are both comparable as the one scale to 200 GT actually scales beyond it. However you cannot do this when the gap is that large

Not to mention Asta also scales above his own ratings.

You haven't proved either the Black Asta nor RPL claims. quantify these things and until you do then no he doesn't "yield enough energy to defeat DK".

Okay? Asta while a 7-B managed to defeat a High 7-A via RPL. Just so you know, the gap between those two tier is at the very least a 10× difference.

he doesn't have enough range with any of his attacks to effectively harm DK given his size so none of what you've posted gives Asta an actual win-con.

His size is irrelevant, what killed DK was the energy of the combo move and not its size, otherwise the move would have needed to be country wide to kill him.

A: Asta has at-most a slight AP advantage, definitely not enough to knock DK around

You are just ignoring what we've been arguing for days at this point.

B: He can through his DP, just because he hasn't/didn't show it doesn't mean he doesn't have it given the inherent things that demons have, especially the highest-ranking one's which Demon King is the epicenter of, also even if he couldn't regenerate that wouldn't be much of negative factor for DK given his massive size

We can't assume he has it otherwise he would have done it when he got hit by Meliodas and the others.

And for the last time, his size is irrelevant. You simply need enough AP to knock him out.

 

[Epsilon_R]

I'm not counting "Asta FRA" as votes when Asta doesn't even have a win-con yet while Demon King does with his Nature Manipulation which isn't magical-based and Soul Manipulation which is layered and isn't resisted by Asta.

I won't accept that bias. The votes are counting especially since they agree with my arguments, which I have been saying for the entire thread and that you haven't countered without bringing you head canon or saying its not valid.

One vote left

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Having higher numbers has always been superior to having layered resistance to far lower numbers. That's exactly the reason why someone with several layers of heat resistance, like 300°C, will never be enough to resist someone who can produce heat equal to the temperature of the Sun.

its not anymore and depends on how the hax works now and how many layers it can resist
like soul haxing and mind hax had this overhaul regarding mechanics and layers >= numbers because these things aren't physical like heat resistance and such

 

[Epsilon_R]

State of mind: In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't.

You haven't read SBA haven't you?.

Please, you are the one who should read it properly.

Have you, like actually read my points or are you just meat-riding all of the BC points?

Ironic when it comes from Mr./Ms. I-put-DK-comparable-to-a-character-three-times-stronger-because-I-don't-want-him-to-lose

My argument is that DK isn't dumb and when he sees his magical shit getting null'd by Asta's Anti-Magic he would most likely start using things that aren't magic-based.

And that's your headcanon.

The characters will employ their usual battle strategies

DK will not use curse nor soul steal as they are not in his usual battle strategies.

It's not that hard to understand, really.

 

[speedster352]

I vote for the DK is he too large and has more hax than Asta

 

[Epsilon_R]

even if you have superior AP if you have a bullet as powerful as planet buster if its size is only enough to cut my fingerstips it won't do much unless you hit vital parts or important parts.

No offense but that's a bad comparison as bullet revolves around piercing damage, while Asta does blunt damage.

NPI is only for purification then or power null.

if that is the case I don't see how he can put DK down permanently

depending on how much is his speed amp. speed equalize rule makes it so speed amps cannot make one 4x faster than the other else it would be speedblitz

Idk where you got that from, but its plain wrong. Here's how it actually works:

Let's assume 2 characters:

Character A, who's Speed of Light all around

Character B, who's Speed of Light travel speed, baseline FTL+ combat speed (10× his travel speed) and baseline MFTL Reaction Speed (10× his combat speed)


Speed Equal make the combat speed of the faster character, downscale to the combat speed of the slower one and reduce the other speeds (reactions, travel speed and so on) by the same factor

That means character B's Combat Speed would be lowered to Speed of Light after equalization as it would be equal to A's combat speed, but his Travel Speed would be lowered to baseline Relativistic (10× slower than his combat speed) while his Reaction Speed would be lowered to baseline FTL+ (since his Reaction Speed is 10× faster than his combat speed)

There's no such thing as to not being able to become more than 4 times faster with boost. If the faster character still manages to blitz despite speed equal there's nothing you can do about it

so at best 4 attacks to 1 if his speed amp is that high still 1 attack that would be soul manip which he is likely to lead with would definitely be lethal against Asta as he never has soul resistance in the first place

He doesn't soul manip in character, we went over that already

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Speed Equal make the combat speed of the faster character, downscale to the combat speed of the slower one and reduce the other speeds (reactions, travel speed and so on) by the same factor

That means character B's Combat Speed would be lowered to Speed of Light after equalization as it would be equal to A's combat speed, but his Travel Speed would be lowered to baseline Relativistic (10× slower than his combat speed) while his Reaction Speed would be lowered to baseline FTL+ (since his Reaction Speed is 10× faster than his combat speed)

There's no such thing as to not being able to become more than 4 times faster with boost. If the faster character still manages to blitz despite speed equal there's nothing you can do about it

He doesn't soul manip in character, we went over that already

except that the purpose of speed equalizes it to make the fight that would result in speed blitz possible by equalizing speed if the faster one still speed blitz then there is no point to it.
knowing how it works is one but knowing why it was decided to be like that is another.

Though, just like how a fight scene could potentially be bland and boring due to characters blitzing, a match where one character can blitz the other often doesn't allow for much discussion or debate. And pretty much takes away the majority of one's arsenal, strategies, skills and abilities if someone can just kill them before they get the chance to use them. On top of resulting in a stomp/spite match more often then not.

In order to prevent such a predicament, some VS discussions may be open to equalizing speed. In an attempt to make the topic more balanced, debatable or engaging. But it can often be difficult to pinpoint when exactly a speed advantage constitutes a "blitz." So instead such decision is mostly given on a case by case basis and using common sense.

can you perceive a small enemy moving 4x your speed and 4x what you can normally perceive before he attacks you?

He doesn't soul manip in character, we went over that already

He does just like most demon
he just doesn't do it on anyone who he knows to resist soul manipulation because for them eating soul is how they improve to become stronger or how they take sustenance and is the fastest way to take out enemy without expending too much energy

if he sees a brat with a big sword he would be uninterested and want to get done with it easily since he will most likely underestimate him

No offense but that's a bad comparison as bullet revolves around piercing damage, while Asta does blunt damage.

slashing is blunt damage? surely you jest. when it was stated in his profile that he cuts magic and things with the edge of his sword. it will only become blunt if it fails to cut through and if that is the case it wouldn't even be strong enough because it would be resisted if it isn't resisted it will slice through

 

[Epsilon_R]

except that the purpose of speed equalizes it to make the fight that would result in speed blitz possible by equalizing speed if the faster one still speed blitz then there is no point to it.
knowing how it works is one but knowing why it was decided to be like that is another.

When speed is equalized, the faster character can still speedblitz by using amps (if said amps allow him to blitz).
And if the speedblitz makes the slower character unable to win, it's considered a stomp. Nothing more, nothing less

can you perceive a small enemy moving 4x your speed and 4x what you can normally perceive before he attacks you?

Oh, so the 4× is just a number you took out of the wiki then. Yeah, we won't use it.

He does just like most demon

Show me an instance of DK doing that then.

he just doesn't do it on anyone who he knows to resist soul manipulation

because for them eating soul is how they improve to become stronger or how they take sustenance and is the fastest way to take out enemy without expending too much energy

Still doesn't prove he would do that against Asta. Also, did you say that because there's an explanation as to why he does soul manip, or did you just headcanon?

if he sees a brat with a big sword he would be uninterested and want to get done with it easily since he will most likely underestimate him

Headcanon

slashing is blunt damage? surely you jest. when it was stated in his profile that he cuts magic and things with the edge of his sword. it will only become blunt if it fails to cut through and if that is the case it wouldn't even be strong enough because it would be resisted if it isn't resisted it will slice through

Asta's swords are blunt except for Demon Dweller, they can slice magic but they can't slice anything unless he coats them with Anti-Magic.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Asta's swords are blunt except for Demon Dweller, they can slice magic but they can't slice anything unless he coats them with Anti-Magic.

not coating it with anti-magic would be a bad move for him

Headcanon

 

[speedster352]

not coating it with anti-magic would be a bad move for him

It's fine when it comes to threads like these NNT supporters are nowhere to be found. So in the future please refrain from making NNT vs black clover vs battle or Asta vs anyone from NNT in general.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Asta FRA

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

It's fine when it comes to threads like these NNT supporters are nowhere to be found. So in the future please refrain from making NNT vs black clover vs battle or Asta vs anyone from NNT in general.

I mean they have decent and fair points and tbh NNT and Black Clover are pretty close in it for tiers so I'm more surprised there aren't many match-ups between characters.

but at the same time, I dislike undermining or underestimating characters so much and I have something to say about how they think this character would win and how this character can't do anything.

 

[Nierre]

Asta can amp his speed with black asta so no asta has ki sensing so he can know where his vial parts or important parts and black asta has passive power null and no DK cannot hax him since most of it is nulled and in this key he doesn't show to be able to use his ability and once he saw his ability useless he leads with psychical and it's in character

Asta fra

 

[Nierre]

then how would he know he needs to purify him or that he can exist as incorporeal being.

Ki sensing should help with this, no?

 

[speedster352]

Ki sensing should help with this, no?

No

Asta fra

Nope the demon king has haxes that are not magic like his toxic storm.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No

Yes, it would. Asta can sense intent, something it would still have. Toxic storm gets negated by Demon Destroyer.

 

[speedster352]

Yes, it would. Asta can sense intent, something it would still have. Toxic storm gets negated by Demon Destroyer.

This is the last time

Nature Manipulation: The Demon King has displayed various nature-related abilities. He can summon lightning bolts from the sky, create "mists of death" over an entire city, as well as create large tornados.

he is not doing or blocking a toxic storm over the entire city. It is NOT magic It's natural poison stop wanking demon destroyer. It literally stay the after-effects of spells not all positions are the same.

• Demon-Destroyer: Asta's third Anti-Magic sword, It can cut through magic spells with its edges, just like his other two swords. It can also severe the cause-and-effect relationship to absorb and remove the effects of magic spells as if they were never casted or even negate Reincarnation Magic. The shape of Demon-Destroyer changes when Asta is in Devil Union.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is the last time



he is not doing or blocking a toxic storm over the entire city. It is NOT magic It's natural poison stop wanking demon destroyer. It literally stay the after-effects of spells not all positions are the same.

Yeah, I don’t care. The spell was finished, meaning it wasn’t magic.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In fact, when has the Demon King ever used the Toxic Storm in this key? Give me a scan.

 

[speedster352]

Yeah, I don’t care. The spell was finished, meaning it wasn’t magic.

• Demon-Destroyer: Asta's third Anti-Magic sword, It can cut through magic spells with its edges, just like his other two swords. It can also severe the cause-and-effect relationship to absorb and remove the effects of magic spells as if they were never casted or even negate Reincarnation Magic. The shape of Demon-Destroyer changes when Asta is in Devil Union.

You were saying?

 

[speedster352]

In fact, when has the Demon King ever used the Toxic Storm in this key? Give me a scan.

It's nature manipulation it's on his profile so he can use it

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You were saying?

Yeah, and I’m still saying the effects of the spell were finished. So, he removed the poison.

It's nature manipulation it's on his profile so he can use it

Show me a specific scan where he uses it in his Britannia form. He has nature manipulation in all keys, but I’ve yet to see it used in any of his Zeldris forms.

 

[speedster352]

Yeah, and I’m still saying the effects of the spell were finished. So, he removed the poison.



Show me a specific scan where he uses it in his Britannia form. He has nature manipulation in all keys, but I’ve yet to see it used in any of his Zeldris forms.

This is DK Britannia. Also, that is headcanon. Not all poisons are the same it is natural poison. Again

• Demon-Destroyer: Asta's third Anti-Magic sword, It can cut through magic spells with its edges, just like his other two swords. It can also severe the cause-and-effect relationship to absorb and remove the effects of magic spells as if they were never casted or even negate Reincarnation Magic. The shape of Demon-Destroyer changes when Asta is in Devil Union.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is DK Britannia.

Show me a scan.

Also, that is headcanon. Not all poisons are the same it is natural poison.

No, it’s not headcanon. The spell was finished, therefore it was no longer magic. I won’t repeat myself, it gets negated.

 

[speedster352]

Show me a scan.

No, it’s not headcanon. The spell was finished, therefore it was no longer magic. I won’t repeat myself, it gets negated.

• Demon-Destroyer: Asta's third Anti-Magic sword, It can cut through magic spells with its edges, just like his other two swords. It can also severe the cause-and-effect relationship to absorb and remove the effects of magic spells as if they were never casted or even negate Reincarnation Magic. The shape of Demon-Destroyer changes when Asta is in Devil Union.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

To be honest with the state of the current profiles asta really wins this match

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alright, since there’s no scan of DK in his Britannia form using toxic storms, we can conclude he doesn’t use it - therefore Asta doesn’t need to negate it. So, Asta just hacks and slashes him apart.

 

[speedster352]

In fact, when has the Demon King ever used the Toxic Storm in this key? Give me a scan.

Here is the scan

 

[speedster352]

Alright, since there’s no scan of DK in his Britannia form using toxic storms, we can conclude he doesn’t use it - therefore Asta doesn’t need to negate it. So, Asta just hacks and slashes him apart.

Here is the scan

 

[speedster352]

To be honest with the state of the current profiles asta really wins this match

What are his win cons? Can he destroy an entire country? Does he have the range no? Can he stop the haxes that are not magic-like soul-stealing?

 

[speedster352]

Here is the demon king profile.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Here is the scan

Where is the toxic storm? I don’t see anything but lightning.

 

[speedster352]

Alright, since there’s no scan of DK in his Britannia form using toxic storms, we can conclude he doesn’t use it - therefore Asta doesn’t need to negate it. So, Asta just hacks and slashes him apart.

Headcanon: A sub-branch of "fanon" is actually called "headcanon." When someone invents a piece of fanon they really believe in, it may not be accepted as a general part of fandom, but it still stays tucked away inside its creator's brain; it thus becomes his or her personal "headcanon

No Limits Fallacy (NLF) This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated). Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him.

 

[speedster352]

Where is the toxic storm? I don’t see anything but lightning.

He still uses nature manipulation.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Do you even know what half of these phrases even means? How is it a no limits fallacy if you can’t prove he uses toxic storms in his Britannia form? How is it a headcanon if you can’t prove it?

 

[speedster352]

Do you even know what half of these phrases even means? How is it a no limits fallacy if you can’t prove he uses toxic storms in his Britannia form? How is it a headcanon if you can’t prove it?

I am talking about your claim that the demon destroyer will negate the toxic storm because it's poison. Not all poisons are the same but you won't listen there is still soul-stealing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I am talking about your claim that the demon destroyer will negate the toxic storm because it's poison. Not all poisons are the same but you won't listen there is still soul-stealing.

Find me where I claimed all were the same. The affects were done, therefore, not magic. Simple. Find me where Britannia DK uses souls.

 

[speedster352]

Find me where I claimed all were the same. The affects were done, therefore, not magic. Simple. Find me where Britannia DK uses souls.

It's part of his biology and he can whisper Asta's soul away or out hax or outlast him with non-magical things like nature manipulation and his large size(merged with Britannia).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is going in circles. Asta has more votes anyways.