Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What's Grandia length?

Upscaled Jormungandr AP

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[Expectro2000xxx]

What's Grandia length?

Upscaled Jormungandr AP

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8,773,627.8m

With that calculation its weight would be 4.64e20kg.

With the GPE method it would give 9.99e26 Joules or 238.78 Terajoules (High 6-B). With the KE method you get 394,813.251m/s and 3.62e31 Joules or 8.65 Zettatons (Low 5-B). With the Force you get 1.83e26 Newtons or 1.87e25Kg (Class Z).

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

8,773,627.8m

With that calculation its weight would be 4.64e20kg.

With the GPE method it would give 9.99e26 Joules or 238.78 Terajoules (High 6-B). With the KE method you get 394,813.251m/s and 3.62e31 Joules or 8.65 Zettatons (Low 5-B). With the Force you get 1.83e26 Newtons or 1.87e25Kg (Class Z).

Found it

Reisen Gorge Creation And Grandia Weight

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Grandia could be longer than the continent, right ?


The golems were able to keep up with the original spirits, and here is their current level of power(30%) when fighting Hajime

「It’s really a war of gods huh. The scale is in different level.」

「Indeed……to be honest, I still cannot fully comprehend it.」

Perhaps because of the degradation from the long years, or perhaps because of other cause, in any case, the strength of the current pseudo spirits was only around 30% of their golden age. They also could only use a small part of their authority. Perhaps that was why they needed to steal the memories of Yue and others to supplement it, but either way, it saved their lives, the two thought while getting cold sweat.
Remnant of Myth ch 4

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Found it

Reisen Gorge Creation And Grandia Weight

vsbattles.fandom.com

Grandia could be longer than the continent, right ?


The golems were able to keep up with the original spirits, and here is their current level of power(30%) when fighting Hajime

I did the calc, I gave you that number for a reason, you don't need to show me again my calc. The only reference for Grandia size that we have is the fact that they defended the bottom half of the continent with their body, so you will not get any higher size than that, be happy with what you got.

Percentage scaling in fiction is ridiculous due to the obvious inconsistencies between showings, we don't use percentage scaling in the verse because of that, a good example of those inconsistencies are the Silver Apostles and their fight with Shea. We also aren't scaling Hajime party at that point to the great spirits, it would be an outlier for them at that point.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Can you justify concept magic being type 1?

While you're at it, can you explain conception to add it to the energy page ?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Can you justify concept magic being type 1?

Look at the crt that added it to see the justification for that.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Here

Arifureta Revisions Vols 7-11 + Extras

In the end do to cover so many vols this ended really long, so please take all the time you need to read everything, there is no rush. Hajime Senses: Eventually, dawn arrived. The sun’s rays crested the horizon, causing everyone to cast long shadows. Warm light suffused the air, and right when...

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Expectroo

Is said that ancient magic interfere and manipulate fundamental abstract concepts (which if I'm not wrong is a requisite in the description of concept manip type 2), this become more evident with cases like spatial magic that do to control the boundaries can create dimensions or manipulate fantasy and reality (something show for example in one bonus stories with a book artifact that absorbed people and made them live the tale of the book), spirit magic that manipulate every incorporeal element of sentient beings (heat, electricity, mind, memories, dreams, soul, stamina, etc), evolution magic that manipulate the information of living things, objects and even data (as show in the after stories) since it classify as information (also, now that info manip have types the evolution magic users should get both types) the other types also have cases like that but this ancient magic are the more easy to show and understand.

Though there also exist concept magic which is treated as something more fundamental and complex, after talking with Elizhaa seem posible that the difference is more focused in the limits of their scope, while each ancient magic only control their specific concept (which are above) concept magic don't have limits in what it can do because of be the combination of all the ancient magics. Similarly, considering the recent cosmology revelations in the after stories about the Astral World/Akashic Records, is quite possible that the author plan to make a connection between that and the concept magic.

and here

Arifureta Zero Revisions vol 6, Micellaneous, Stats and Hax Scaling Blog

Here go the additions of vol 6, along with some miscellaneous things outside of vol 6 and the blog with the stats values of all the characters together with the hax scaling/layers of ancient magic in general. Zero Volume 6 New Keys Fairly simple, we already knew that the Liberators would get a...

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I know it's superior, but there is nothing about it being independent. For outsiders that make it sound like a more layered version of ancient magic.

I've been gathering some details about the cosmology and found some interesting stuff about energy, soul, ancient magic and the realms that could explain it better.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I have the scans for all what I'm about to mention, but it will take time to find them.


Planet energy: fundamental particles created from the trees converting Element into different forms of energy.

Soul: the planet energy taking a different form. So the soul is made from mana, willpower...soul is just sentient energy or energy that gain self/individuality. Soul compose of memory, knowledge, consciousness, power, race, will...
That's not all, we found out that the soul produce conception and convert the planet energy into whatever energy the person is using like Kouki converting the machine world energy into magic power after they revitalized the plant. So the soul could convert different energies into something else. Doesn't seem unikely when you realise that even elements like water, mist, and light have supernatural property that destroy demons soul and time/dimensional travel like when the spirit whale used mist to get into his city that exist outside space-m-time and could be used to enter all the realls across all times.

Element: a smaller particle that make up all those energy, it the energy that exist in all the realm and converted by the trees. The only thing that fit's the discription is conception especially when we found out that the heaven tree convert conception into element of thought and it's different for each realm.
Another is that it was stated somewhere that this energy(Element) comes from the origin world(TWA). Conception=CM1

Ancient magic: knowledge(not power) that people got after reaching the truth of the world(possibly the branch). It seems to that source of the power behind it is the user soul and magic power meaning the soul is what manipulate reality on a conceptual level further proven by how everyone and their grandma resist ancient magic(jk) even without having any special energy. Ancient magic is powered by mana and from Ehit technique that convert piety into magic power there is possibility that mana give resistance to ancient magic and even concept magic and that what gave him high resistance, plus conception evolving his soul. So AM is just understanding reality on. Of course the user affinity matter. AM=CM1

Concept magic: just ancient magic but empowered by will(soul). We know that willpower is crazy in the verse it could be used to resist hax and force concepts on reality. Even without a strong will the person could just use info magic to upgrade it. So it's just manipulating reality using the soul(will). Concept magic=Will+CM1

Authority: Hax that come from the great tree who was able to interfer with the crystal key destination, and it was stated to be equal to concept magic. But limited to a single realm. Authority=CM1
Why it's limited? (read below)

Nine Realms: Nine universes, I got some evidence that could prove that they were connected conceptually, but something led to each universe becoming an independent system on its own trapped by something like a boundary that wasn't there at the begining. The great trees in each realm is connected to the world on a conceptual level and it's could be the equivalent of the world symbol. And Hajime compass being limited to the nine realms which suggest the outside worlds don't have the same principles(concept type 1). Each branch=concept type 1

The world Tree(Tree->limb->branch->twig): It was stated that each limb has different underlying principle that govern the world which mean different concepts type 1.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Before you answere check GOW, TGOH and Tensei slime magic/soul page

God of War Magic System Explanation Page

The following explains the magic of the setting, its nature, potency, and different manifestations and abilities. There's always been a tie between magic, the soul, and life-force, which can be seen in multiple instances. Vanquishing enemies with runic magic allows one to harness their life...

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The God of Highschool - The Core of Life, and what it entails

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Magic and Skills (Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken)

Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken has two main sources of power, Magic and Skills. Both are divided into different levels, and different types. On one hand, magic has common abilities that are shared by all individuals that can use that type of magic, meanwhile Skills are, at least on the higher...

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[Expectro2000xxx]

Here

Arifureta Revisions Vols 7-11 + Extras

In the end do to cover so many vols this ended really long, so please take all the time you need to read everything, there is no rush. Hajime Senses: Eventually, dawn arrived. The sun’s rays crested the horizon, causing everyone to cast long shadows. Warm light suffused the air, and right when...

vsbattles.com

Expectroo

and here

Arifureta Zero Revisions vol 6, Micellaneous, Stats and Hax Scaling Blog

Here go the additions of vol 6, along with some miscellaneous things outside of vol 6 and the blog with the stats values of all the characters together with the hax scaling/layers of ancient magic in general. Zero Volume 6 New Keys Fairly simple, we already knew that the Liberators would get a...

vsbattles.com

I know it's superior, but there is nothing about it being independent. For outsiders that make it sound like a more layered version of ancient magic.

I've been gathering some details about the cosmology and found some interesting stuff about energy, soul, ancient magic and the realms that could explain it better.

Don't even know why you are linking that first crt that is unrelated to concept magic type 1 but ok, whatever.

This will sound harsh but unfortunately, you just suck at debating, I have seen how you debate the verse in threads and that's genuinely the conclusion I reach each time.

Going again about the reasoning for type 1.

Now, though concept magic can only be attained after master all seven ancient magic, it doesn’t fall under any category of ancient magic and can't be analyzed, overcome or affected in any way with ancient magic, even by people able to use the essence of each ancient magic and who have mastered it like the Liberators, and can only be affected by other concept magic. There were no rules, no restrictions to what could be done with it. It truly was the ultimate type of magic. (All of this information come from knowledgeable and reliable sources, the last part is even info that come directly from the age of the gods)

I originally consulted with Elizhaa if given this information concept magic could be granted a possible concept manip type 1 and she said yes, so in principle this should be fine. Actually after reread the volume to make this crt I found a lot more things showing the absolute superiority of concept magic over ancient magic, so this should futher solidify the point, maybe it can even make it a solid thing instead of a possibly, though that depend on the knowledgeable staff.

God, I sucked even more writing back then with all those grammatical mistakes, not like now I'm much better Ig. So we know that ancient magic not only manipulates abstract concepts but that they are the seven most fundamental things of the universe (or universes I suppose since they are also present in the other worlds), and we knew that despite that concept magic was somehow superior to ancient magic but we didn't know exactly to what extent that was.

Now, vol 6 of Zero we were shown to what extent that superiority went and the reason why, we were shown that no matter what ancient magic can't affect it in any form (be it trying to alter it in any way or even just try to understand it), it is completely beyond the scope of ancient magic and only other concept magic can do something to it, and then we were also told how there it literally had no rules or restrictions that could limit it, which supports once again how it is beyond even the most fundamental aspects of the universe.

So what we have is something independent of reality, that unilaterally controls the fundamental blocks of the universe without any limit or possibility of being affected back in any feasible way by anything besides itself (other concept magic basically). In case I was wrong or getting ahead of myself I went to consult one of the staff members listed as knowledgeable regarding concept manip, who also happened to be someone who knew about the verse terminology, which means that they were already familiar with what ancient magic is, and that person agreed with the logic of it being independent of reality. Now, if other users disagree with this logic and staff deem it invalid, then it's perfectly fine to downgrade it to the previous state of just being vaguely above on the Type 2 scale.


I haven't seen any of the other things you shared (be it quotes or links), this was purely an explanation of the logic used two years ago to upgrade it to type 1 using only the things available then.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

This will sound harsh but unfortunately, you just suck at debating, I have seen how you debate the verse in threads and that's genuinely the conclusion I reach each time.

I know, any advice ?

So we know that ancient magic not only manipulates abstract concepts but that they are the seven most fundamental things of the universe (or universes I suppose since they are also present in the other worlds), and we knew that despite that concept magic was somehow superior to ancient magic but we didn't know exactly to what extent that was.

(Read above)
My interpretation is that when they talk about truth of the world they don't refere to the concepts that govern the realm but to the cosmology(the branch). This s backed up by braches being a conceptual structures and that the ones who discover ancient magic are same civilisations discovering other universes(Asgard and Hell). So the truth of the world(ancient magic) is the branch(type 1 obviously) and that's why the compass is limited to it.

Another thing is that the apparition authority is based on their conception(type 1) and it was still resisted by using Soul shell(soul magic).

Now, vol 6 of Zero we were shown to what extent that superiority went and the reason why, we were shown that no matter what ancient magic can't affect it in any form (be it trying to alter it in any way or even just try to understand it), it is completely beyond the scope of ancient magic and only other concept magic can do something to it, and then we were also told how there it literally had no rules or restrictions that could limit it, which supports once again how it is beyond even the most fundamental aspects of the universe

I agree with you but here are the problems
1)It's just ancient magic(knowledge)+willpower and it could be resisted through willpower
2)It could be replicated through the combination of soul and info magic and Lyutillis.
3) It's limited to the nine realm

So what we have is something independent of reality, that unilaterally controls the fundamental blocks of the universe without any limit or possibility of being affected back in any feasible way by anything besides itself (other concept magic basically). In case I was wrong or getting ahead of myself I went to consult one of the staff members listed as knowledgeable regarding concept manip, who also happened to be someone who knew about the verse terminology, which means that they were already familiar with what ancient magic is, and that person agreed with the logic of it being independent of reality. Now, if other users disagree with this logic and staff deem it invalid, then it's perfectly fine to downgrade it to the previous state of just being vaguely above on the Type 2 scale.

I agree with this, but I think what's make the difference between is that there is a will behind concept magic. Which make sense that they're using a willpower to resist another will hax.

Ancient magic=Concept magic-willpower

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I know, any advice ?

The only thing I can think of is seeing people debate, analyze how they formulate their arguments and talk, and trying to imitate that in debates until you improve. I suppose also developing your logic helps.

My interpretation is that when they talk about truth of the world they don't refere to the concepts that govern the realm but to the cosmology(the branch). This s backed up by braches being a conceptual structures and that the ones who discover ancient magic are same civilisations discovering other universes(Asgard and Hell). So the truth of the world(ancient magic) is the branch(type 1 obviously) and that's why the compass is limited to it.

I think you should try to ask yourself if you want to upgrade ancient magic to type 1 because there exists genuine proof and logic that back up that or if you want to upgrade it just because it's better/cooler/stronger and having it would make them defeat more characters from other verses. If you desire to do it because of the former then try to consult knowledgeable people in the matter (concepts type 1, so don't ask me), think really hard about how you formulate your arguments, and if you can convince them then you can try making a crt to gets your ideas evaluated to see if they can pass or not.

I agree with you but here are the problems
1)It's just ancient magic(knowledge)+willpower and it could be resisted through willpower
2)It could be replicated through the combination of soul and info magic and Lyutillis.
3) It's limited to the nine realm

1) And? The sum of all parts is not the same as each individual one. The point is that we know for a fact how completely different the final product (ancient magic) is from the materials (ancient magic) in a very explicit way that doesn't give room to debate how qualitatively superior it is. The only extra material that is different from the rest in that mix is the Will aspect, which has indeed shown the potential to interact in a meaningful way with concept magic (it can resist it and create it), so there exists the possibility of an argument about how Will should scale to the to the type (regardless of it is 3, 2 or 1) of concept magic and that would be a valid one, though currently I sincerely have no desire of making a revision trying to implement that logic in a more formalized way, and honestly don't think either that you are capable enough to handle something like that, maybe in the future I would get the Will to do that but at the moment I don't want.

2) I don't know what you are talking about but regardless, and? You can make with worse materials something with similar effects, that doesn't necessarily mean that the object with similar effects has the same value or potency/effectiveness or properties as the thing it imitated, so I don't see how this would be a disqualifier, more so when in the context of this series we are told and shown that regardless of anything concept magic will always be above (hence its title as the ultimate magic and how it's needed another concept magic to clash with it).

3) Cool, can't talk because I haven't reached those parts but if after the previous crt new evidence has come out that contradicts the notion of it being unbound/independent of reality, and this evidence is either significant or abundant enough, then it can be simply downgraded, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

The only thing I can think of is seeing people debate, analyze how they formulate their arguments and talk, and trying to imitate that in debates until you improve. I suppose also developing your logic helps.

Ok, just know that english isn't my first language.

I think you should try to ask yourself if you want to upgrade ancient magic to type 1 because there exists genuine proof and logic that back up that or if you want to upgrade it just because it's better/cooler/stronger and having it would make them defeat more characters from other verses. If you desire to do it because of the former then try to consult knowledgeable people in the matter (concepts type 1, so don't ask me), think really hard about how you formulate your arguments, and if you can convince them then you can try making a crt to gets your ideas evaluated to see if they can pass or not.

I'll need help with that part.

BTW, have you read what I wrote above ?

1) And? The sum of all parts is not the same as each individual one. The point is that we know for a fact how completely different the final product (ancient magic) is from the materials (ancient magic) in a very explicit way that doesn't give room to debate how qualitatively superior it is. The only extra material that is different from the rest in that mix is the Will aspect, which has indeed shown the potential to interact in a meaningful way with concept magic (it can resist it and create it), so there exists the possibility of an argument about how Will should scale to the to the type (regardless of it is 3, 2 or 1) of concept magic and that would be a valid one, though currently I sincerely have no desire of making a revision trying to implement that logic in a more formalized way, and honestly don't think either that you are capable enough to handle something like that, maybe in the future I would get the Will to do that but at the moment I don't want.

I'll wait for it.

Another thing is that there is no evidence that shows ancient magic being dependent on the realms.

2) I don't know what you are talking about but regardless, and? You can make with worse materials something with similar effects, that doesn't necessarily mean that the object with similar effects has the same value or potency/effectiveness or properties as the thing it imitated, so I don't see how this would be a disqualifier, more so when in the context of this series we are told and shown that regardless of anything concept magic will always be above (hence its title as the ultimate magic and how it's needed another concept magic to clash with it).

Or the authorities that come from the great trees.

3) Cool, can't talk because I haven't reached those parts but if after the previous crt new evidence has come out that contradicts the notion of it being unbound/independent of reality, and this evidence is either significant or abundant enough, then it can be simply downgraded, I don't have a problem with that.

No downgrade, because it's comes from the branch and not the realms.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Ok, just know that english isn't my first language.

Another thing is that there is no evidence that shows ancient magic being dependent on the realms.

No downgrade, because it's comes from the branch and not the realms.

Mine neither, and? I in fact have no formal english education, I just learned it from watching the persona games (and later on from reading novels), there a reason as to why I always make grammatical mistakes, even more back then when I was doing the Arifureta revisions. The important thing is the logic itself of the arguments and the way it's delivered, so even with details like bad grammar you still can debate and convince others of your points.

If ancient magics are the fundamental parts of the universe then logically speaking they are dependant of the universe, as otherwise it would be like considering the foundations of a building not a part of the building they support.

You need learn to debate well and make solid/logical arguments, because otherwise the more you talk the more unimpressive things seem and the more support you give to downgrades arguments, this coming from the person who made a considerable effort to improve the verse and put it in a good state.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Mine neither, and? I in fact have no formal english education, I just learned it from watching the persona games (and later on from reading novels)

I started with watching movies, series, music and games then start reading books.

If ancient magics are the fundamental parts of the universe then logically speaking they are dependant of the universe, as otherwise it would be like considering the foundations of a building not a part of the building they support.

But it's the same across all the realms, which suggest that the branch is the source of this knowledge and the branch is what govern all the realm within. Further evidence is that some branches were stated to have similare concepts(structure) bjt not the same while others have different underlying principles(ancient magic).

That was the existence of “possible world”.

According to Foltina, even their nine universes were located on nothing more than a single branch from a major branch that extended from the world tree. Furthermore their universes were nothing more than the leaves that grew at the further end of a smaller branch. There were other branches and leaves beside their branch. Nearby branch would have similar worlds with theirs, while the far away branch could possibly could have worlds with completely different culture and history engraved on them.

Not only that, it might even be possible that there were different major branches that grew from the world tree, where mankind itself didn’t exist there in the first place, where the worlds were completely different, in law of physics, concept, or the world’s underlying principle. Ch 470

What I'm trying to say is that ancient magic is the power of the branch itself while concept magic is forcing the branch to someone will, which explain how it's superior.

There is multiple evidences to prove it being type 1, and nothing to show its dependency on the realms.

So Ancient magic=Branch concepts(type 1)

 

[Community_Gamer]

Glad y'all worked all that out. I've already voiced my issues with give anything in the series Type 1 CM, so I won't rehash. And I suppose that moreso has to do with changing VSB classifies concepts and the hand waving in relation to ontology and abstraction.

Regardless doesn't sound like anything is getting changed. I'll tackle these issues again when these storyline have proper LNs.