Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2

[Digital_Franz]

Why couldn't reach outside the nine realms ?

My theory is that all laws and concepts come from the branch, and it's the limit of everything including concept magic. What do you think ?

It is possible, yeah.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

With all the things magic could do, Hajime(1st key) will have crazy resistance.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Before I start working on a CRT for elemnental magic. I need to know what are we gonna do with these:

Water, Wind(mist) and light(mirror)

「The gap of “hell” and “this world” is wavering. Just now, I said that they could not cross the gap of worlds without the “mirror gate” but……now is different. In this time when this gap is wavering, if there is a medium that can easily connect the interval, they will be able to descend to “this world” with a strong body maintaining their existence.」

For example, a mirror. A mirror that reflected another world, especially when there was an opposite mirror, the gap of worlds could be shaken just with that.

For example, a thick mist. A heavy mist that shut the field of vision where it was impossible to look even an inch ahead, it could also shake the spot of “this world” itself.

And then, water.

The world was connected by water. Water was a natural “gate” that crossed every world. Ch 307

「You are connected to that god by wind after all! And they are also a god, so I think it will be easy for them to come!」

According to them, it wasn’t just limited to wind, apparently existences who possessed nature divinity of water or light were also relatively easy to summon although not as easy as the hero as long as there was some kind of connection formed even through the partition of the world. Especially divinity with strong connection with “World Tree’s Branch”. Ch 388

Not sure about this one

“Mirror”――that was none other than the reason why the “Shadow Monk” was able to throw overwhelming number of “Shiki” to the battlefield.

It was one of the secret treasure in the possession of “Shadow Monk”. It was an ancient foldable mirror. If a “Shiki” that was created beforehand was put into one side of the “Mirror” surface, the image would be reflected to the other surface and the “Shiki” there could be mass produced as long as the item user’s mental strength could last.

Furthermore, it had a secret technique where the “Mirror” could be magically connected to another mirror. With that it was possible to materialize the Shiki in another location using the world inside the mirror as intermediary. Ch 422

There is more like the spirit whale using mist to send them to his city.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

LN vol 14 cover

 

[Community_Gamer]

LN vol 14 cover

OH SHIT I NEED TO HURRY UP

 

[Digital_Franz]

LN vol 14 cover

Holy ****

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

From the gap being a place outside the universes where beings who transcend space-time reside, It's obvious that the branch is 5D.

 

[Community_Gamer]

From the gap being a place outside the universes where beings who transcend space-time reside, It's obvious that the branch is 5D.

Well yeah generally speaking you argue space-time is inherently 5D anyways

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Well yeah generally speaking you argue space-time is inherently 5D anyways

Can you explain why the space-time is 5D ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

So what does it mean for outsiders ?

Outsiders are beings from another branch with the ability to travel them.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Can you explain why the space-time is 5D ?

Its not using dimensional tiering it wouldn't apply to VSB standards

 

[Community_Gamer]

So what does it mean for outsiders ?

Outsiders are beings from another branch with the ability to travel them.

Is "outsiders" a new term?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Is "outsiders" a new term?

I don't remember what they called them.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What make characters with mana manipulation special ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

What make characters with mana manipulation special ?

Wdym with Mana Manipulation you need an incantation and/or magic circles to cast magic.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Wdym with Mana Manipulation you need an incantation and/or magic circles to cast magic.

What ?
Mana manipulation is what cause magic to manifest without needing incantation or a circle.

What should we give characters who could manipulate it directly like Hajime or other atavists ?
Like Shea

Mana Manipulation: Allows the user to use magic without chants and magic circles.

• Body Strengthening (Level I-XI): An ability which allows Shea to strengthen her body. She is insanely good at this ability, with just 10 days of training with Yue, she could boost herself to being close to 60% of Hajime's strength. She got better with this ability over series to the point that by the time she fought with Platinum Apostles she could boost herself to the point she surpasses Hajime when he is using Overload.

She has learned it from Yue, and not many can use it to my knowledge.

 

[Community_Gamer]

What ?
Mana manipulation is what cause magic to manifest without needing incantation or a circle.

Sorry I meant *without it

What should we give characters who could manipulate it directly like Hajime or other atavists ?
Like Shea

Not sure.

 

[Community_Gamer]

During my rereading, I found this statement from Cam to actually quite funny considering what we know now about Shea's fighting spirit which is incredibly broken. I wonder if she can teach it to her family. Just food for thought.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

During my rereading, I found this statement from Cam to actually quite funny considering what we know now about Shea's fighting spirit which is incredibly broken. I wonder if she can teach it to her family. Just food for thought.

IS THAT BRAIN DAMAGE ?
But nah, they were trained by Hajime.

There other instances:
1)the apostle using fighting spirits
to manifest into a different species(fairy) and manipulate elemnt of thought.

「This feeling……don’t tell me, they interfered with the thought element on their own?」

Netemp Mother and Etemp-san bent backward in unison. They also didn’t forget to make their fingers and legs snapped up to point above. An overwhelming smugness radiated from them.

「Using Ehito’s formula to convert piety into magic power as reference, we tried our best with apostle’s knowledge, technique, and also “fighting spirit” that we learned from Shia-sama.」Ch 387

2)the priest who destroyed 3 grim reapers possessed by demons, and managed to fuse different energies was stated to be similar to Shia by Yue and the author.
Author note:

– Fusion of magic power and willpower


From Kankahou of [Negima]. Perhaps, if Tortus’s bugged character is Shia, then the earth’s bugged character is the director. She doesn’t want to lose so the war god rabbit would also start upping her effort. Ch 478

「The exorcist’s director is fusing magic power and willpower with his own strength and entered a Limit Break-like state. What do you think?」

『I don’t understand what you’re saying.』

Naturally.

Hajime turned the call into video call mode and showed Yue the war god father’s figure.

『……I see.』

「Did you notice something?」

『……He isn’t human. QED.』

「I understand your feeling.」

It seemed that was the conclusion Yue reached after seeing Director Dime unleashing rapid blows that looked like gatling gun firing.

It was understandable. Gargoyle-san was pressed on the barrier and had no place to escape. It was single-mindedly enduring by hardening its defense, but its metallic body was gradually breaking. Ch 479

(Google QED)

Will, Guts and fighting spirits are the same thing.

 

[Community_Gamer]

IS THAT BRAIN DAMAGE ?
But nah, they were trained by Hajime.

Yeah hence the what-if

There other instances:
1)the apostle using fighting spirits
to manifest into a different species(fairy) and manipulate elemnt of thought.

Yeah I know about this

2)the priest who destroyed 3 grim reapers possessed by demons, and managed to fuse different energies was stated to be similar to Shia by Yue and the author.
Author note:

Interesting but it doesn't necessarily mean its like her fighting spirit

(Google QED)

Will, Guts and fighting spirits are the same thing.

How do we know that they are all the same thing? I understand Guts and Will, especially since Guts is something she was utilizing during the latter half of the main story. However wouldn't it be odd if fighting spirit was the exact same as Guts considering Shea recently developed it no? Didn't she specifically need and possibly develop fighting spirit in order to fuse energies together? Unless is just explicitly said, the only way I see them being the same is that Shea says the terms interchangeably or arbitrarily.....or she just changed GUTS to "fighting spirit".

I could be wrong after all I'm not totally caught up on the WN.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I got enough scans to prove that energy, soul, will and emotions are related.

I don't know how I missed this part about the apostle.

Before:
They gained a soul after coming to the fairy world.

Hajime immediately handed the white pearl necklace――the “Soul Shell” which was the improved version of the artifact that was thought up by the liberators to defend against Ehito’s “Divine Word”. This artifact had the function of “neutralizing mental type abnormal status effect”.

「S-say, Nagumo……isn’t Etemp-san and Netemp-san also in danger?」

「Aa? Y-you two are also affected huh……」

When Hajime turned around because of Kousuke’s words, Etemp-san was on her back with her legs twitching. Netemp Mother had fallen down with her trembling hands reaching out toward Hajime as though to say 『Sa, save mee~, masterr~』.

It seemed the “Juso” that came attacking was something very powerful. Most likely its effect was working at the level of soul.

「Well, this is also a proof that you two have souls though……」

「「I, ii~~~」」

「Or rather you two, what happened with your usual high tension? You two were too quiet that you became just like Endou.」

「Who are you calling “a guy who could melt and vanish into air if he kept quiet”. That’s rude.」

「No, I didn’t speak until that far though……」

Hajime had handed “Soul Shell” to Etemp & Netemp Mother too. Although he was a bit concerned about the strangely quiet two people……two thingies (?), the attack’s density was also increasing as they got nearer, so he put the matter on the back-burner. Ch 384

Read below to understand what happened.

Their core ?

「And? In the end what are you guys? You two are Neunte and Erst right?」

「Indeed those are the core our existence.」Ch 387

Apostle true form and Ehit absorption

「Master, do you remember? At the last battle against Ehito in the sanctuary, that guy absorbed us.」

「……There is no way I can forget that. It wasn’t just apostles, that bastard also every single monster in the holy precinct. The repulsiveness of the meat lump that resulted from that is still seared clearly in my brain even now.」

Ehito’s last form that was only witnessed by Hajime and Yue――it was a writhing lump of meat that was grotesque and profane. After Hajime took Yue back, Ehito only had his own soul and even that soul was on the verge of vanishing. He was reduced into that shape from his obsession to simply surviving.

「This is something slightly off topic but, we apostles were puppets without a soul as already master knows, but at the same time we were also a record storage of history.」

「Aa, if I remember right you guys all shared your memory with each other.」Ch 387

「It seems that even an existence of a soulless doll like us can have a vast amount of conception dwelling within due to the record of an eternity of history and our position as apostles of god.」

Fairy Etemp continued after Netemp Mother’s words and stared at empty air as though she was recalling something while opening her mouth.

「The conception dwelling within Ehito and the conception within us apostles, and in addition sacred beasts that existed in legend and vast amount of conception directed toward magical beasts were mixed chaotically within that lump of meat.」

「And there, master. You shot that conception into it.」

Hajime’s last concept magic “Returning the Agony You Spread Out Back at You" (It’s Payback For Everything You Have Done, You Shitty Bastard) that finished off a god.

「Within that chaos, the negative emotions from millions, trillions of death that Ehito and we caused brought the concept of death to us, and as the result, we were annihilated together with Ehito down to our particles but……」

「Where did the prayer filled with faithful and pure wish, the positive conception go to? This is the answer.」

The people of Tortus had continuously believed in the existence of a virtuous Ehito. That conception also dwelled within the apostles. It also wasn’t difficult to imagine that other conceptions other than fear were also residing within the monsters of the holy precinct.

Then certainly, it wouldn’t be strange even if the positive conception that was offered to the holy precinct’s existence was still remaining. It also wouldn’t flow into the Fairy World if Ua Alto was still in its withered state and the path was blocked. Ch 387

They use the term "paticles" for their existence, and the interesting part is that Hajime didn't erase conception with his EE bullet instead he used his victims emotions(conception) to do it.

At this point, it's clear that the soul realy has some form of CM.

They were able to take action in a state of pure consciousness(conception)

「……In other words, the existences of you two are like a hodgepodge of such positive conception?」

「Master, wording.」

「Say it in a cooler way! Mister Aby, please show an example.」

「Eh!? ……You two are an aggregation (cluster) of positive subconscious, something like that?」

「「As expected from the one who has peeked into the abyss of chuuni!」」

「Shaddup! Continue with the explanation already!」

Kouki smiled wryly while calming down Kousuke. Fairy Etemp puffed out her chest while he was doing that and she showed a smug face.

「We who ended up becoming an aggregation of positive subconscious wandered in Tortus for a while after that. And then after Kaori-sama returned to her original body, we dwelled inside the body of Neunte who had returned to being a soulless doll again.」

「The reason we did that is unclear but, most likely that was the result of us seeking master subconsciously, and master yourself had fought that body personally and perceived that physical body as a comrade, so that might be the cause we entered that body.」

「Why did you two go to me?」

「Master, this positive conception also included a lot of feeling of deep gratitude for ending the insane game of the god you know?」

「It’s only natural that we wish to stay beside master. The conception that form our fundamentals is also fully made up of that.」Ch 387

「Setting that aside, if you two are aggregation of conception in the end, why is it Erst and Neunte that became the base?」

「We also don’t have a positive proof of what that is the case but, most likely that’s because the former Erst is “The Apostle of Beginning”.

The name Erst had the meaning of “first”, in other words, I am the number one! There is no little sister who can win against her big sister! she sent a sidelong glance to Netemp Mother as though to say that.

Netemp Mother’s body blow roared and fairy Etemp blocked it with her elbow.

Hajime cocked his gun. The two then continued the story obediently.

「After dwelling in Neunte’s body, there was something like an internal war happening, who is going to serve master! Such power struggle occurred in the subconscious level.」

「Naturally there wasn’t any bond of sisterhood between the apostles when we still served the god, even so Erst’s existence was regarded as special so……」

This was also a subconscious thing, but as the result the conception of apostle gathered and Erst’s consciousness rose to the surface. She won the power struggle.

Neetemp Mother shook her head with a look of extreme sorrow and muttered 「That was truly a black history for us」. Fairy Etemp glared at her 「Aa? What do you mean by that huuuh」 like a yakuza.

「I don’t know whether these sisters get along well or not. ……Well, doesn’t matter. And, what about Neunte?」

「After the apostles’ consciousness was formed from the chaotic whirlpool of conception, I was also able to establish my consciousness as an individual. Most likely it was because my emotional attachment to master was particularly strong. After all I was the individual who got my heart directly shot by master!」Ch 387

They are the chaotic conception of Ehit, the postles and the sanctuary monsters. But only the apostle apeared because they have a strong identity.

The others

「What about the other apostles?」

「After coming to this world I was able to completely control the aggregation, so I’ll be able to project and make their consciousness possess other objects.」

「Well, they are originally apostles, so I think that all of them will have the same personality at the beginning.」

Netemp Mother added that if each apostle accumulated experience while being in a separated state from the aggregation, their individuality would grow even more separately than a blank slate apostle.

Hajime folded his arms and made a contemplative look to sort the information in his mind. Netemp Mother and fairy Etemp made a thumb up while saying.

「Now now, master. Please don’t think so hard like that. Transcendentally beautiful protector fairies get, hell yeah! You can just think of this like that! I am master’s Etemp! It’s fine like that isn’t it!?」

「Master will be able to tinker with the ideal combat maid robots and push them down to your heart’s content! You can just think of it like that! I am master’s Netemp! There is no problem like that!」

「I’m worried because if I don’t properly think hard about this, it feels like that before I noticed it you guys will already multiply endlessly.」

「「……Ii?」」

「Don’t pretend to suddenly become unable to understand words.」Ch 387

So, even soulless "objects" could each this level with time and willpower. Think about that


After:
They manifest a soul and a body from the planet energy.

「Yes master. It feels like, our soul got the jitters. Then when we focused a bit and put some effort, there was a feeling like perhaps we can do it and then when we tried we really could talk.」

「……Even though their voice is exactly like the god’s apostle, how can it sound so easygoing and frivolous like this……」

「Of course that is because I am Neunte but not Neunte, I am master’s Netemp-san!」Ch 387

「This thought element’s density, the massiveness of the conception……has she really been reborn as apparition――」

「You there! I’m a fairy!」

「N-no, you are composed of thought element of another world(Fairy world), so by definition you are apparition――」

「I – am – a – fai – ry!」

「……Yes, you are a fairy. I can’t believe that you are really reborn as a fairy by your own effort. Especially when the world is at its current state.」

If they were here inside the Heaven Tree, there was a foundation for “fairy” to be born here. However, as expected an apparition that was born from the flow of conception of another world couldn’t do that here.

And yet, Aularodde saw it with her own eyes how Etemp formed herself with conception of another world, and furthermore with a vast amount of it. Ch 387

Willpower is crazy


It's clear from all of this that consciousness is more fundamental than the soul, and from the soul being info(1&2) it makes sense why the EE bullet was only able to erase Ehit's soul.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I got enough scans to prove that energy, soul, will and emotions are related.

I don't know how I missed this part about the apostle.

Before:
They gained a soul after coming to the fairy world.

Read below to understand what happened.

Their core ?

Apostle true form and Ehit absorption


The interesting part is that Hajime didn't erase conception with his EE bullet instead he used his victims emotions(conception) to do it.

At this point, it's clear that the soul realy has some form of CM.

They were able to take action in a state of pure consciousness(conception)


They are the chaotic conception of Ehit, the postles and the sanctuary monsters. But only the apostle apeared because they have a strong identity.

The others

So, even soulless "objects" could each this level with time and willpower. Think about that


After:
They manifest a soul and a body from the planet energy.


Willpower is crazy


It's clear from all of this that consciousness is more fundamental than the soul, and from the soul being info(1&2) it makes sense why the EE bullet was only able to erase Ehit's soul.

This is great and all, and I'm pretty you've shown me all these scans before. However, it doesn't really contradict anything I said or was presenting.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

This is great and all, and I'm pretty you've shown me all these scans before. However, it doesn't really contradict anything I said or was presenting.

It got nothing to do with our conversation. I just thought that it was an impressive feat.

How do we know that they are all the same thing? I understand Guts and Will, especially since Guts is something she was utilizing during the latter half of the main story. However wouldn't it be odd if fighting spirit was the exact same as Guts considering Shea recently developed it no? Didn't she specifically need and possibly develop fighting spirit in order to fuse energies together? Unless is just explicitly said, the only way I see them being the same is that Shea says the terms interchangeably or arbitrarily.....or she just changed GUTS to "fighting spirit".

Yeah, she pretty much use them interchangeably.

 

[Community_Gamer]

It got nothing to do with our conversation. I just thought that it was an impressive feat.

Oh alright fair enough

Yeah, she pretty much use them interchangeably.

How do we know this?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

How do we know this?

Just a name difference. There is some occasions where they refer to it as "unknown phenomenon", but it's just willpower.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

To my knowledge, there is three unique abilities in the verse
1)Shia's guts 2)Kousuke stealth 3)Myu friendship power

 

[Community_Gamer]

Just a name difference. There is some occasions where they refer to it as "unknown phenomenon", but it's just willpower.

I'll take your word for it. However Shea being conscious and actively controlling her "willpower" to form techniques and defy phenomenons is very unusual. Even though Hajime and Yue have supernatural divine levels of willpower, that's still mainly restricted or channeled through concrete mediums like Concept Magic. They don't or haven't really used in the casual manner Shea does (and she might have less than both of them going by feats).

I do wonder how Shea obtained this level of awareness and control over her willpower.

I guess my intuition was on the money, since Shea's been my favorite character since V6.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I'll take your word for it. However Shea being conscious and actively controlling her "willpower" to form techniques and defy phenomenons is very unusual. Even though Hajime and Yue have supernatural divine levels of willpower, that's still mainly restricted or channeled through concrete mediums like Concept Magic. They don't or haven't really used in the casual manner Shea does (and she might have less than both of them going by feats).

I do wonder how Shea obtained this level of awareness and control over her willpower.

I guess my intuition was on the money, since Shea's been my favorite character since V6.

Guts

Doesn't Shion from Tensura have a similar ability ?

You already know that concept magic is fuelled by willpower, and it was stated to be

According to Alfard, concept magic quite literally allowed someone to materialize concepts into physical reality. There were no rules, no restrictions to what could be done with it. It truly was the ultimate type of magic. But in order to use concept magic, a person needed to interact with the seven fundamental rules of the universe, understand them intimately, and possess a massive amount of mana. And then, they needed a final key that was so difficult to grasp that the secrets of concept magic had been lost to time.


“All you guys need now is anunbelievably powerful will.” Zero Vol 6 p291

"Are you willing to kill her to get this back?” the girl said in a low, gravelly voice that clearly wasn’t hers. She grinned wickedly, and Miledi and the others immediately realized that Ehit had possessed her and was using her body as a shield. Ehit then hugged the arrow close and with a silver flash, destroyed it with disintegration magic.

Split in half, the arrow lost its rainbow aura, and Ehit tossed the broken ends away like they were nothing.


“Just how low can you stoop?!” Miledi screamed. However, she knew yelling wouldn’t change anything. And so, she used gravity magic to call the broken halves of the arrow toward her, while the portal to the Sanctuary closed shut. Zero Vol 6 p409

"The concept magic contained within it was destroyed. Not even restoration magic can bring that back,” Meiru explained. Zero Vol 6 p412

Did she destroy the concept ? Can mana destroy concepts ?

It seem like she destroyed the concept within the arrow and not just the arrow.
Before you answere, don't forget that Hajime chain of denial still had power after it was used and damaged even though it wasn't made from divinity stone. This is because the strenght of concepts is influenced by will and that's why it remained.

As its name suggests, evolution magic causes other power to evolve. Naturally, that includes other ancient magic. Creation magic, gravity magic, spirit magic, transformation magic, spatial magic, and restoration magic... These are all powerful branches of magic that manipulate the fundamental forces that govern this world. If you were to evolve them all and combine them, you would give birth to a magic that surpasses all others. Magic that could truly be considered godlike... Concept magic Vol 8 p272

Their hands opened up like a budding flower and crimson mana started pouring into the Divinity Stone and other ore that they were holding. The metals began fusing together and started molding into something new. All of the surrounding mana started getting sucked into those tiny ores. They were being transmuted. Wiping her tears with the hem of her sleeve, Kaori watched on curiously.

“Is that... a key?”

As she’d said, the ores were forming the shape of a key. A translucent, dodecahedron-shaped crimson crystal formed at the base of the key, where it’d be held from. Motes of golden mana glimmered within the crystal like tiny stars. The key itself looked like some kind of old antique key with all sorts of artistic flairs added on. Vol 10 p237

Their voices echoed through the room like the tolling of a bell. The two of them lit up, glowing brighter than the sun. The swirling galaxy of mana around them erupted like a supernova and the room was inundated in red and golden light, blotting out everything. The mana carried with it an unshakable, indestructible will. The force of the mana knocked Shea and the others out for a second, but they regained consciousness before falling to the floor. Vol 10 p240

Hajime turned to the key in his hands and examined it with his Demon Eye. It was saturated with more mana than anything he’d ever made before, and through his Demon Eye it looked like a tiny bundle of light.


“We did a pretty good job... I can feel the energy inside of it. It feels just like the Compass of Eternal Paths.” Vol 10 p241

it looks like it’s going to take some time before I can work out concept magic that’ll protect us from being resummoned.”Just creating the Crystal Key had left Hajime and Yue more exhausted than ever. It seemed the process of turning a concept into reality left the casters in a state of such weariness that not even spirit or restoration magic could cure it. Vol 10 p246

It's not far fetched to say that everything(soul, will, conception, concepts...) is energy.


Another evidence for that is Spirit magic explaination:

Spirit Magic: The ability to interfere with souls. The more precise definition of spirit magic is magic that manipulates the incorporeal elements of sentient beings. In more concrete terms, it could be used to manipulate the heat, electricity, and other energy without matter that circulated within a person’s body. That also included things like memories, thoughts, and consciousness. With enough skill, a spirit magic user could take those incorporeal elements, duplicate them, and create a new soul out of them. In other words, create another person.

and the light novel

Spirit magic was magic that manipulated the incorporeal elements of sentient beings. In more concrete terms, it could be used to manipulate the heat, electricity, and other matterless energy that circulated within a person’s body. That also included things like memories, thoughts, and consciousness. With enough skill, a spirit magic user could take those incorporeal elements, duplicate them, and create a new soul out of them. In other words, create another person. Vol 10 p216

They're refering to those elements(soul information) as energy.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Guts

Doesn't Shion from Tensura have a similar ability ?

No. She just manipulates fate and causality.

You already know that concept magic is fuelled by willpower, and it was stated to be

Yuh

Did she destroy the concept ? Can mana destroy concepts ?

Not necessarily.

It seem like she destroyed the concept within the arrow and not just the arrow.
Before you answere, don't forget that Hajime chain of denial still had power after it was used and damaged even though it wasn't made from divinity stone. This is because the strenght of concepts is influenced by will and that's why it remained.

I think the fact the will was the differential between the two instances could mean that for a concept to remain in an object/artifact after its been destroyed REQUIRES immensely more sufficient WILLPOWER than simply the amount needed to create it. This makes sense when you think about how Hajime's despair was rejecting the whole world. That's my theory on it. There's no concrete answer.

It's not far fetched to say that everything(soul, will, conception, concepts...) is energy.

Yes, but energy isn't a concept more so a turn of phrase in this case. So it is just a way of elaborating on seemingly vague and arbitrary ideas thus making them more concrete in turn.

Another evidence for that is Spirit magic explaination:

and the light novel

They're refering to those elements(soul information) as energy.

Energy is the capacity to do work. It may exist in potential, kinetic, thermal, electrical, chemical, nuclear, or other forms. -Britannica

If you consider what energy entails in terms of physics then it becomes quite clear and simple. The examples of energies that Spirit Magic can manipulate are all related to physics. they all come at the result of or lead the result of work. So anything that results in a kinetic, electromagnetic, potential, and metaphysical reaction is probably falling under spirit magic.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I think the fact the will was the differential between the two instances could mean that for a concept to remain in an object/artifact after its been destroyed REQUIRES immensely more sufficient WILLPOWER than simply the amount needed to create it. This makes sense when you think about how Hajime's despair was rejecting the whole world. That's my theory on it. There's no concrete answer.

I agree

Yes, but energy isn't a concept more so a turn of phrase in this case. So it is just a way of elaborating on seemingly vague and arbitrary ideas thus making them more concrete in turn.

Not realy, abstract stuff like ideas, myth, wishes, emotions and informations are energy in the verse.You could be right though, but from the explaination concept magic seems like will(energy) inhabiting an object or spell.
There is multiple instances where they refer to will as concept.

If you consider what energy entails in terms of physics then it becomes quite clear and simple. The examples of energies that Spirit Magic can manipulate are all related to physics. they all come at the result of or lead the result of work. So anything that results in a kinetic, electromagnetic, potential, and metaphysical reaction is probably falling under spirit magic.

Physics is more related to gravity magic, and the reason electricity is controled by spirit magic is similar to how gravity magic warp space.


The soul sound like a concept for being an idea and fundamental to the person.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

From the AE and CM page It will be like this:

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even being unaffected by abilities that can't target the abstraction.

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

Beware that the abstract nature of different characters can stem from different sources (rumors, concepts, possibilities,...), as such, being able to affect a subtype of a category does not mean a character can affect all types of abstraction.

For generalized formatting, something like "(Level of abstract existence (Type 1 or 2) - Type of abstract existence (thoughts, concepts or information)" would suffice, with conceptual abstractions in specific, the addition of the "type of concept (Type 1, 2 or 3)" after the stated formatting above would be preferable. For more practical examples please reference these provided profiles here.

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object linked to it in the same way the concept itself was changed.

Magic, Soul and Lifeforce: AE(type 1-thoughts, information 1&2 and concept type 1) and Macro-quantum: The soul is an Ether(planet energy) structure that represent the fundamental aspects that define the nature of a being, be it human, god (or even planets?). It's composed of elements like knowledge, memory, power, energy, genes, will and concepts(for gods). It's sourced back to conception(particle) that form the base for these fundamental particles and it's a conceptual energy that define reality as whole while being independent from it. Both soul and mana are just different form of the same energy(ether) being converted into them, and they both represent lifeforce of the vessel.(Could someone rephrase it better ?)


And other stuff like immortality, regeneration and possession.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I was (kind of) right about the soul/ghost here.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Not realy, abstract stuff like ideas, myth, wishes, emotions and informations are energy in the verse.You could be right though, but from the explaination concept magic seems like will(energy) inhabiting an object or spell.
There is multiple instances where they refer to will as concept.

What I'm saying is that energy is a catch all term. It's a particular concept in the case Arifureta as a series. Also has concept magic or really any magic ever been used/created without mana or some energy source? If not then I wouldn't readily agree with the notion that its just will inhabiting and object or spell.

Physics is more related to gravity magic, and the reason electricity is controled by spirit magic is similar to how gravity magic warp space.

I'm not saying that spirit magic controls physics but that a lot of what spirit magic manipulates falls under our view of physics and metaphysics. I'm just categorizing using real world terms. It doesn't change how it works in the work itself.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Also has concept magic or really any magic ever been used/created without mana or some energy source? If not then I wouldn't readily agree with the notion that its just will inhabiting and object or spell.

Wasn't there something about creation magic controlling both physical and magical structures ?

Artifact are made by imprinting magical spells, ancient magic or will into physical objects, and even soul can inhabit object like the sentient artifacts. Why it's hard to believe that will is an energy that could reach conceptual level ?

It's also how they resist most hax.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Artifact are made by imprinting spells, ancient magic or will into physical objects, and even soul can possess object. Why it's hard to believe that will is an energy that could reach conceptual level ?

1. You are missing the point. I am saying that if mana is necessary to imbue, maintain, or create concept magic then there is obviously a causal relationship between energy (in this case mana) and concept magic. 2. It doesn't matter what we find believable, I want to know what IS the case. Also, energy is the vehicle for change, it's the fuel source but it is not the concept itself. Just like how many isn't conceptual but you need it to cast Ancient Magic and Concept Magic.

It's also how they resist most hax.

When has anyone resisted Ancient Magic or Concept Magic with just energy alone?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

1. You are missing the point. I am saying that if mana is necessary to imbue, maintain, or create concept magic then there is obviously a causal relationship between energy (in this case mana) and concept magic.

I get you point, and it's my fault for not explaining it better.

Mana itself is what form their will, it's what their souls are made from which mean that every part of the soul including will, thoughts, emotion...are made of mana.

There is exceptions like conception as it's made from it but not a part of it or will existing independently from it after the soul disperse.

It's also the case for inhabitant of other realms, as their soul is from the planet energy and can use it to preform similar feats.

2. It doesn't matter what we find believable, I want to know what IS the case. Also, energy is the vehicle for change, it's the fuel source but it is not the concept itself. Just like how many isn't conceptual but you

Let's keep it as possible for now

When has anyone resisted Ancient Magic or Concept Magic with just energy alone?

I meant their soul/will

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I just realised that Ehit survived as pure conception

Hajime couldn’t sense anything of Ehitruje’s personality or will from the creature. The existence-denying bullet had indeed killed Ehitruje himself. The only reason he hadn’t completely disappeared was because his attachment to eternal life and desire to trample over everything were so strong that a shade of him composed of only those feelings had remained. Vol 13 p223

and there is similarities between Conception and concept magic.

1)they are either will, desire, wish, belief emotion...
2)Both are concepts created from the soul
3)They could counter each other, like Ehit resisting godslaying concept for having a lot of conception.


Maybe it's like quality vs quantity ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Hajime Nagumo vs RE:Zero(verse)

Round 1:everyone at once. Round 2: one at a time. Speed not =. SBA otherwise Hajime Nagumo(After-Stories): R1: R2: RE:Zero(verse): R1: R2: i thought speed = would be more fair but the rules for it were clearly not designed with 1vmany fights in mind.

vsbattles.com

 

[Community_Gamer]

I know I've brought this up before but do we still not have any EE attacks beyond the Blood Chains and bullet? If so that's kinda crazy.

Also remember those days when Hajime stood a decent chance against Tensura characters? Ahh the good old days

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I know I've brought this up before but do we still not have any EE attacks beyond the Blood Chains and bullet? If so that's kinda crazy.

I remember telling you about Yue fire spell that completly destroy souls. Naiz erasing his village from the map. BH that annihilate anything.

Also remember those days when Hajime stood a decent chance against Tensura characters? Ahh the good old days

They got him in AP and smurf, but remember Arifureta is still going and they haven't even explore all the nine realms.