Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I missed this part

“Transmute!”

“Nether Burst"

Golden mana ran across the cracks in the ceiling. At the same time, a pitch black nova descended upon the ancient dragon, emitting sky blue sparks from its surface.

There was no loud bang,and vibrations from the impact could be felt. Miledi’s deadliest attack was also her most silent.

At the same time, the ceiling repaired itself in the blink of an eye. When Oscar looked down though, he found the ground had vanished.

“......” The two of them gazed silently at each other.

Oscar hesitantly opened his mouth.

“I know I told you to send it to hell, but I never said anything about makinga hell...”

“Ugh...”

“What the hell are we supposed to do now? This is way worse than a floor collapsing, you know that, right? There’s no way I can fix that even with my Transmutation.”

“Y-You don’t have to yell at me! Even I know I overdid it a little! Besides, this is all yourfault, O-kun!”

“M-My fault? You’re the one who made a giant abyss! Quit trying to pushresponsibility for that on me!”

“No, it’s totaaaaaally your fault! What the heck was in that jewel!? I thought it was some kind of artifact that stored mana, so I drew it all out, but there was way more than I thought there’d be! Like, tons more! Not eventhe rarest of artifacts even come close to that!” Zero Vol 1 p181

Miledi has created the hole in which Hajime fell.

Just mentioned this to prove that energy=Gavitational force or LS for Gravity Magic users.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Did Naiz meant this literally ?

He’d let his anger fuel him, and cast the most powerful spell he was capable of. He’d utterly destroyed a section of space. In other words, he quite literally wiped Gruen off the map, along with the villagers and Bolemos. Zero Vol 1 p276

He never used this spell again. It could mean that it require a lot of energy that was provided to him from his emotion.

Is it like Tio ability to convert pain(emotion) into mana ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

EE spells

Arifureta: some EE spells

Existence erasure for : Yue's spell 「――”Flame of Divine Punishment”」 Inside Yue’s opened palm, a small blue star was floating quietly. The next moment, it spread to the city like an aurora pouring down from the sky. It was a divine flame that penetrated through all kind of obstacles and...

vsbattles.com

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Could these prove the "infinite possibilities" ?

A Case of What If
There exist an infinite amount of possibilities and timelines in this world. If we were to imagine some of those what if scenarios in Arifureta, they might go something like,

Case 1: What if, when Kouki was fighting Emperor Gahard, he did things a little differently?

"Prepare yourself, Hero. If you hold back again...”
Goosebumps coated Kouki’s arms. The bodyguard’s tone of voice clearly conveyed what awaited him if he held back.
“AAALaLaLaLaie!”
“What the hell!?”
Were Hoelscher’s emperor a bit more like a certain other ruler, then surely all the demons would surrender and begin calling him “bro.”

Case 2: What if, when Kouki was fighting Emperor Gahard, he did things a little differently? v2

“What on earth are you doing, Gahard?”
King Eliheid yelled out as he leaped in between the two fighters and blocked Gahard’s blow. Gahard was thrown off balance by the fact that Eliheid had discovered his identity, but he nevertheless smiled fearlessly and prepared to charge again. Sighing, Eliheid realized Gahard had no intention of backing down.
“All thing of this of this world, turn to ashes, Ryujin Jakka"
"Wait--stop--no"
If king Eliheid was actually the captain of the 13 Court Guard Companies, then all the demons would most likely be crying in fear.

Case 3: What if the second fight with the Behemoth went a little differently?

The Behemoth, enraged that a pair of mere humans had stopped its assault, stamped impatiently on the ground. Seeing this, the other students took advantage of its momentary distraction.
“Peerless swordsmanship that rends even the heavens—Hiten Mitsurugi style, Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki!”
“What?”
If Shizuku Yaegashi was a master of the Hiten Mitsurugi style, she would probably be the hero, not Kouki.

Case 4: What if Kouki’s sacred sword was a little different?

“Let’s go! Sacred sword, lend me your power!”
“Moron, this is why I can’t handle country hicks. I told you not to bother me during my afternoon tea.”
“......”
If Kouki’s sword was as annoying as a certain other world’s Excalibur, then Kouki probably wouldn’t be so nice.

Case 5: What if things were a little different when Hajime first found the Divinity Stone?

“This... is...”
The source of the liquid was a basketball-sized crystal that emitted a pale red light... A few days later after conquering his lonelinesse starvation, and pain, Hajime took down his first enemy, the Twin-tailed Wolf.
“What a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice sound that was. Truly, wonderful! Is it not wonderful, o philosopher’s stone?”Had the stone Hajime discovered really been the philosopher’s stone, he might have ended up like Kimblee.

Case 6: What if the scorpion fight had gone a little differently?

“...Thanks for the meal.
”Suddenly, Yue got to her feet and brandished a hand at the scorpion thing. As she did so, a tremendous amount of mana, golden in color, poured out of her tiny body, chasing away the darkness. Then, clad in a wondrous golden light, with her golden hair fluttering around her, she muttered a single phrase.“Forbidden Barrage ‘Catadioptric.’”
If Yue was actually the little sister to the master of the scarlet devil mansion, then she’d surely be this story’s last boss.

There a countless amount of possible timelines for every world...so why not try and think of a few yourself ?

and

「Lily-san, let’s detach your thinking from work for a bit. Rather, it feels like I can see the future of Lily-san dying from getting overworked. Also, this won’t have the precision of “hypothesized future” or “oracle sight”. It’ll be something hazy somehow like, ‘this kind of future might be possible?’.」

It seemed the accuracy would be hit or miss at best. But, being able to see a scene that showed a possibility of the future was something unique of Shia.

Like that Shia said 「Then here I go」 and heightened her focus while inhaling a deep breath ‘suuu~~’……

「UOOOOOOOOOOOOOHDESUUUUUUUUU!!!」

「Somehow it’s different from my imagination!!」

A divination so unexpected it even made Hajime’s eyes widened started.

A fierce scream and bluish white magic power surged from Shia. Her form that was slightly leaning forward with her arms rounded and strained was just like the “Most Muscular” posing of body builder!

On top of that, “something behind” like Yue’s “lightning dragon” and Kaori’s “Hannya” was faintly……

It was like something from a different time axis, like a muscular rabbit that displayed her true nature in common daily life Arifureta Nichijou……

Bursting! Bursting! It’s formed to the supreme level! The muscles are rejoicing!

That muscle motion that was just very lively, the intensity that was like a supreme ruler, it made everyone there to open their eyes wide like saucer!

「NUOOOOOOOOOOH!! ――I can see-, I can see it! The future-!! ……………………ah, desuu!」Ch 359

I asked here and the correct translation was "from a different space-time".

This prove that Arifureta Nichijou(I love Isekai) is not just canon but also that those events are from other timelines.

Some event are mention as if they happen in the main story like Tio and Yue sweater, the painting that was the empire throne room and others.

Another evidence is Iron Boy.

—The Handsome Rabbit and The Iron Boy

This one’s just one of those alternate timeline stories. As I’m sure you’ve all guessed, it’s based on Ironman. Honestly, if you think about the title of Arifureta, this would probably be a more fitting way for Hajime to get stronger than eating a bunch of monsters. (Whoops.) The rabbit’s kind of in a similar place too. I think you’ll see what I mean once the next mainline volume comes out.

What I'm saying is that every SS or spinoff(I love Isekai, Magicschool, Disney and Folktales) could be from other existing timelines.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Season 3 part 2

Oh so they skipped Shizuku's scene after the Labyrinth only to add it back? Odd choice.

Regardless, they are still unfortunately phoning the animation. Which is going to make the rest of the series nearly impossible to watch considering its ALL fighting

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Didn't Kouki have green eyes ?

In the anime they are blue.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I'm planning a cosmology CRT to upgrade the realms to 2-A, any objection ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Family picture

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

This feat shows that the apostles are capable of twisting people identity by destroying a part of their soul. And that part of "he possessed something far stronger" could be refering to his will.

Was that the same thing she used on Aiko ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Infinite multiverse

Thread 'Arifureta: The Nine Realms'

Dec 20, 2024

Ok let's start with these:
Time/Restoration Magic:
WN

Regeneration magic was ‘magic that interfere at time’. The use of regeneration magic was more of restoration rather than healing, it was just a portion of it. Originally it was possible to interfere with time itself using this magic, it could catch a glimpse of the past or take a peek at several branches of the procession of time. Shia’s characteristic magic of ‘Future Viewing’ was likely originated from this magic.

LN

Restoration magic was magic that manipulated time. Which explained why in her message, Meiru...

• EL_xWatcher1234x
• arifureta arifureta: from commonplace to world's strongest arifureta: from commonplace to world’s strongest tier 2
• Replies: 34
• Forum: Content Revision

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

EE spells

Arifureta: some EE spells

Existence erasure for : Yue's spell 「――”Flame of Divine Punishment”」 Inside Yue’s opened palm, a small blue star was floating quietly. The next moment, it spread to the city like an aurora pouring down from the sky. It was a divine flame that penetrated through all kind of obstacles and...

vsbattles.com

It got accepted

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Connection between Elemental Magic and Ancient Magic ?

"Nature"

"Anyway, what I meant about the general idea was that. Every ancient magic lets you manipulate some fundamental fact of nature, but until now, we didn’t realize which ones they all were. And in order to use concept magic, you have to understand the fundamental aspects of every ancient magic.” Vol 10 p215

Affinity

Kaori had possessed the highest affinity for restoration magic, followed by Tio, and then Yue. Yue was so used to her own self-regeneration skill that she rarely used healing magic. For that reason, her affinity for it was much lower. She was able to heal herself without thinking, so actually having to actively cast recovery spells was hard for her.

On the other hand, Kaori’s job was Priest. Restoration and recovery magic were strongly linked, so her affinity for it had been the highest. She could use it more efficiently, and at greater range than either Yue or Tio. Though she unfortunately still needed magic circles and an incantation to cast, so Yue’s version was still more useful in combat. Vol 5 p283

Healing is derived from Light magic.

Elemental magic<Ancient magic

“Umm, so Shizuku-chan. You know how all the magic we use is a degraded version of the magic they had in the age of the gods, right?”

“Yes. I studied up a little on this world. Ancient magic is the stuff that comes up in all the old histories, right? They were able to control the core elements that govern the laws of this world, while the elements we have are all derivatives... Wait. Is that how Nagumo-kun did it? He’s capable of using ancient magic that... can control people’s souls? And that’s how he kept your soul intact even though you’d died? And then after that he transferred it to a new body?” Vol 6 219

They've referred to A.M. as elements. But that could be nothing.

Dark magic<Soul Magic
Manipulating the souls to a high degree is equivalant to manipulating laws.

“Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!”

Though his mana should have been depleted, it flared up again as Kouki screamed, sending a spiral of pure-white energy rising toward the heavens. However—

“Kouki, stop! If you keep going, you’ll kill yourself!” Shizuku screamed.“Wait, he’ll do what?! Shizuku, what’s going on?! I thought you cut off his mana?!”

“I did! I sliced clean through his mana repository! He’s not absorbing the nearby ether to produce more mana!”

“Then how’s he getting more?!”

“By converting something else! I don’t know if he’s using up his life force or his soul or what, but he’s transforming it all into mana! It’s probably something he can do because he can use Limit Break! Either way, this isn’t good!”

“Goddammit, Kouki, come back to your senses already!”

Indeed, Kouki was creating this mana by burning away his own life. Abilities that overturned the natural laws of the universe always came with a steep cost...and they were practically never worth the price. Vol 12 p139

“Well, you see, my Spirit Binding spell doesn’t just work on dead people. I can useit to control the thoughts and feelings of the living as well! It lets me enslave any soul I want.”

Shizuku and Ryutarou glared at Eri, who’d walked over to Kouki and lovingly ran a finger down the nape of his neck.

“The best part is, they don’t even realize they’re being controlled. By planting suggestions in their mind, I get them to unconsciously ignore the things I want them to ignore! Right now, the only person Kouki-kun believes is me! I’m his one and only heroine!”

“So that’s why you kept clinging to him the whole time...”

Shizuku muttered through clenched teeth.How did I fail to notice she was using Spirit Binding right in front of me?

The most terrifying part was that Eri had managed to create something akin to spirit magic all on her own, and then refined the spell to the point where the incantation didn’t even sound like an incantation. It showed the depth of her obsession with Kouki. Vol 11 p72

“Eri, don’t interfere with my senses again, or I’ll have you tried for treason.”

Not that he trusted a turncoat to begin with. Necromancer was a job that required a high level of proficiency in dark magic. In fact, necromancy was the most powerful dark magic spell. And since Eri could use that with ease, she of course had no trouble using other dark magic spells. She was the genius who’d created her own necromancy spell, Spirit Binding, so it was hardly surprising. The spell that allowed her to bind the souls of the deceased to her corpses and grant them a modicum of will was almost as powerful as ancient magic all on its own. Even Freid, general of the demon army and a master of ancient magic himself, hadn’t been able to sense her arrival, meaning he’d been completely taken in by the dark magic Eri had used to interfere with his senses. However, Eri waved off his threat and replied to him calmly. Vol 8 p333

Apostle brainwashing(Dark magic) here shows that the apostles are capable of twisting people identity by destroying a part of their soul. And that part of "he possessed something far stronger" could be refering to his will.
It was the same hax she used on Aiko.

Kousuke stealth(Dark magic) being compared to soul clones

Presence Manipulation: The user can manipulate the presence of their self by making their presence disappear.

• Presence Isolation: Allows user to completely erase their presence.
• Phantom Step: A skill which leaves behind a presence with an afterimage piled up on them self to blur their own figure.
• Dream Illusion III: A skill that produces up to three illusory clones of the user.
• Clarity Phantom: A skill that gives substance to the clone of the user.
• Minimum Mind: While the user is invisible this skill makes the user’s breathing, heartbeat, presence, and even the fluctuation of the mind, and so on, to be in a flat state.
• Shadow Dance: A skill that allows the user to run on walls. It can’t let the user stand still on a wall, but as long as the user has momentum, they can continue to run on walls.
• Water Dance: A skill that let the user walk over the water.
• Leave Dance: A skill that let the user use things like leaves that are falling in the air as instant footholds for jumping.
• Wood Splinter Dance: A skill which lets the user leap using dust

That was their actual strategy so Aiko could take a long vacation while also still teaching.

The impetus for the idea was of course a certain Abyssgate-san. His clone bodies were produced by his skill but, originally that skill could be categorized as soul magic.

By copying the information of one’s own soul and imprinting it into a body of magic power, it became possible to have another body that could move autonomically and share information. It was a magic with the highest level of difficulty.

「I thought that it would be possible somehow if it’s just creating one clone but……after all I can insert pseudo soul into plant to make it fight for me.」

「I guess there is a world of difference in difficulty level between simple combat action and a perfect copy of the user. In addition there was also the matter of time limit.」

「Yeah. To think that it’s that difficult to grant the clone the same level of autonomy like the original self……furthermore maintaining the magic also become more difficult the more advanced it is. Just what in the world is Endou-kun who is able to maintain several such clones all the time?」

「I’m also learning it once more after seeing Aiko’s hard work. Just how terrific the Abyss Lord is.」

Both could only put on bitter smiles on their faces.

In a glance, Kousuke looked like he was using clone bodies like it was nothing, but in actuality from the perspective of magic user, it wouldn’t be an exaggeration to call his skill in creating clones as godly.

Autonomy that wasn’t at all different from the main body, and equal combat ability. And right now he had even conquered the problem of durability.

On top of that was the aspect of “producing clones from clones in geometric progression”. Even Yue was made to say “It’s impossible for me. How is that possible?” to that. Ch 483

His Clarity Phantom resemble this

Laus granted autonomy and ability to interfere with physic to the past illusion, Oscar turned this graveyard itself into an artifact that could produce a different space like a type of treasure warehouse while also maintaining his comrades’ magic── Ch 456

Even his stealth sound like a passive dark magic spell that interfere with people perception and memory.


Fried dragon light breath and Time magic

Confirming that everyone had learned the same information regarding metamorphosis magic, Tio added, “It seems you can choose what special magic monsters you create with metamorphosis magic have as well. But that magic needs to be at least somewhat in line with the natural disposition of the creature the monster is originally based on.” Vol 10 p213

I’m not the only one who has received Lord Ehit’s blessing. Uranos has evolved beyond mortal limits as well. He’s become a god in his own right. Not only is his breath much stronger, but it also inhibits healing. Surely you’ve noticed your restoration magic isn’t working as well as it should?”

“Mmm, yes, I have.”

Tio had indeed tried to use restoration magic earlier, but she’d quickly noticed it was considerably less effective than it should have been. Had Kaori been here, she probably would have been able to overcome Uranos’s healing debuff with ease, but Tio didn’t have nearly as much aptitude for restoration magic as she did.

Freid grinned wickedly and continued, “Well, it doesn’t just stop your healing either. Your wounds will grow worse with time. They already hurt likea bitch, don’t they? But before long, your entire body will be wracked with so much pain that you’ll die.” Vol 12 p199

His dragon breath is a light attack. He was able to nullify time magic because of the strengthening(Metamorphosis or Info magic ?) he got.

There is nothing about a new skill or anything, which suggest that Metamorphosis magic could strengthen normal abilities to the point they could rival A.M.

And to counter it Hajime used the medicine from Hydra poison to make an anitode instead of nullifying the magic behind it.


Light, Mist and Water

「Then, perhaps it’s a god in savior-san’s world? There is a strong and pretty presence of wind around you.」

「Yep yep! You see, mister. The wind is connected anywhere in the world. Surely that god too marked you mister so they can sense you wherever you are.」

「You are connected to that god by wind after all! And they are also a god, so I think it will be easy for them to come!」

According to them, it wasn’t just limited to wind, apparently existences who possessed nature divinity of water or light were also relatively easy to summon although not as easy as the hero as long as there was some kind of connection formed even through the partition of the world. Especially divinity with strong connection with “World Tree’s Branch”.

「The gap of “hell” and “this world” is wavering. Just now, I said that they could not cross the gap of worlds without the “mirror gate” but……now is different. In this time when this gap is wavering, if there is a medium that can easily connect the interval, they will be able to descend to “this world” with a strong body maintaining their existence.」

For example, a mirror. A mirror that reflected another world, especially when there was an opposite mirror, the gap of worlds could be shaken just with that.

For example, a thick mist. A heavy mist that shut the field of vision where it was impossible to look even an inch ahead, it could also shake the spot of “this world” itself.

And then, water.

The world was connected by water. Water was a natural “gate” that crossed every world.

Mist(Wind) disrupting Space magic

“It’s strange... I can sense mana from everything around us, both the fog and the water.”

“Hajime-san, I think we’ll be okay! I’m not seeing any future where we die, at least!”

Hajime shot Yue a glance. Though he said nothing, it was a trivial task for her to read his thoughts, and she quickly created a teleportation portal to let everyone escape. But before she could send anyone through—

“Daddy! He’s calling for us! He wants us to save him!”

“Wh-What?”

Unfortunately, there wasn’t enough time to process that or ask Myu what she meant. Owooooooooooooooooooooo!The creature let out a howl. It wasn’t a threatening sound, though. In fact, it almost sounded melodic. A second later, Hajime and the others were surrounded by light, and their consciousness began to fade.

“Shi—” Yue shouted, panicking. The portal she’d created scattered to the four winds. SS Volume p215

Mist teleporting Kousuke into another dimension with another timeflow

Silence. Cold air caressed his skin.

He couldn’t see ahead of the torii corridor clearly. There was thin mist at the surrounding when he realized.

This situation clearly wasn’t normal.

One of the profoundly mysterious legends that could also be found in Fushimi Inari crossed the back of his mind.

The so called “spirited away”.

「……Even though, I only came here for school trip.」

Trickle. A drip of sadness fell down from the corner of Kousuke’s eye.

Kousuke-kun immediately went missing right from the first sightseeing destination. Ch 402

Gate artifacts not working in this dimension

After he got left alone in the middle of torii corridor, he kept walking for half a day through the long corridor that was clearly far longer than in reality no matter how he looked at it.

The stone paving and red torii’s were extending endlessly without any change in scenery. It felt like he was not making any progress at all. The outside of the corridor was covered in mist, and even when he threw caution to the wind and tried charging daringly into the mist, he only ended up at his original spot.

He also tried using the Gate artifact, but although it activated, the light membrane had noises running through it or wavering, or dispersing from the edge. It looked dodgy and didn’t seem usable.

It made Kousuke feel like he was hallucinating the scrapping sound of his sanity level was getting whittled down after so long.

(I would be able to contact Emily at least if only my clone didn’t vanish though……)

Perhaps as to be only expected, his smartphone didn’t have any signal the whole time. His connection with the clone at Emily’s side was also severed.

Another example is the atavists having elements related abilities.


Increase in Mana = increase in range

「Tsu, no, reaction?」

「……Hajime?」

The compass’s effective range was in proportion with the amount of magic power poured into it.

With the magic power he poured right now, just a mere distance from here to Akiba, no, even if it was anywhere in Japan the compass would be able to cover it. And yet, there was no reaction. Shia wasn’t within the search range.

Hajime leaped down from the bed and his magic power surged even more. As expected, there was no way the activation of magic power that tremendous would be unnoticed. Downstairs he could feel Tio was taken aback. The sound of her immediately going up the stairs in hurry could be heard. Ch 336

Hajime also activated his communication device. It made a noise. He glanced aside and met the gazes of Yue and others. It looked like it was the same with them. Apparently the call was getting harder to connect.

He sent unlimited magic power to Yue and others through artifacts. That act was like boosting the signal’s strength if this was a normal telephone call.

The noise cut off. There was silent for a while before finally the call connected to the call receiver.

『This is Amanogawa. Is this Nagumo?』

「Yeah. There’s emergency.」

Hajime felt just a bit relieved that the call was connected safely. It looked like Yue and others had connected properly too. Ch 505

Although

「First from me. Right now there isn’t any time difference with earth. According to my clone, it seems her connection to me was horribly disturbed temporarily, but it’s stabilizing right now.」

「The connection almost cut off the instant we entered the machine world huh. Aiko, it’s going to be a bit hard for you but, maintain your consciousness sharing with your clone for now.」

「Of course. Even though I would be able to notice quicker if I didn’t completely leave everything to the clone’s autonomy……I’m sorry.」

「No, you don’t need to feel sorry. After all you won’t be able to have fun with how hard it’ll be if you need to constantly direct half of your focus to earth even though we’re in the middle of a trip.」

Aiko’s shoulders dropped apologetically. Hajime patted her hair gently while running his gaze at the others.

Yue and others nodded and gave their report.

According to them, there was no abnormality with Tortus and the star spirit world. However, apparently there was a change with the fairy world and the desert world.

「……Hajime, the fairy world’s time also turned strange. But it’s the reverse. They said that not even a day has passed since Hajime called there a week ago.」

「Papa! The time also shortened at Ku-chan’s place nano! We talked the day before this trip’s departure but, she said that only around two hours has passed since then!」

「Just in case, I also did my own checking but it looks like there’s no mistake.」

It seemed during the call Remia also checked with Lilin who was beside Koone at that time. Ch 505

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Infinite multiverse

Thread 'Arifureta: The Nine Realms'

Dec 20, 2024

Ok let's start with these:
Time/Restoration Magic:
WN

Regeneration magic was ‘magic that interfere at time’. The use of regeneration magic was more of restoration rather than healing, it was just a portion of it. Originally it was possible to interfere with time itself using this magic, it could catch a glimpse of the past or take a peek at several branches of the procession of time. Shia’s characteristic magic of ‘Future Viewing’ was likely originated from this magic.

LN

Restoration magic was magic that manipulated time. Which explained why in her message, Meiru...

• EL_xWatcher1234x
• arifureta arifureta: from commonplace to world's strongest arifureta: from commonplace to world’s strongest tier 2
• Replies: 34
• Forum: Content Revision

It got accepted

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Check out the new opening


and ending theme

 

[SeijiSetto]

i started reading the series
i will be making my way through it very very slowly because i am reading it in japanese and i suck at japanese

 

[Community_Gamer]

i started reading the series
i will be making my way through it very very slowly because i am reading it in japanese and i suck at japanese

That's dope, always welcome new people to bounce ideas off of. Is any particular reason you want to read the raws? Like for practice or something like that?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Check out the new opening


and ending theme

Typical of the anime, good songs and completely phoned in visuals. Man this adaptation could be so much better it hurts.

 

[SeijiSetto]

That's dope, always welcome new people to bounce ideas off of. Is any particular reason you want to read the raws? Like for practice or something like that?

basically, yeah
that and i knew expectro read it already so i'd have at least one other person to talk about it with

 

[Community_Gamer]

basically, yeah
that and i knew expectro read it already so i'd have at least one other person to talk about it with

Gotcha

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Typical of the anime, good songs and completely phoned in visuals. Man this adaptation could be so much better it hurts.

And skipped content. Volume 1 alone could suffice for the first season. If it was adapted right, it could have been Gintama or One Piece of isekai.

At what order you recommend reading the LN ?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

10th episode short:

Myu vs Godzilla

 

[Community_Gamer]

@EL_xWatcher1234x @Expectro2000xxx Do you have a link for the translated EPUB files? Not the one on bakapervert either since that links been broken forever now.

I'm asking because my brother wants to read the series yet when I sent him my copy of the files, V8 didn't open properly. So even just V8 would be helpful.

EDIT: NVM I found a working one.

 

[SeijiSetto]

@EL_xWatcher1234x @Expectro2000xxx Do you have a link for the translated EPUB files? Not the one on bakapervert either since that links been broken forever now.

I'm asking because my brother wants to read the series yet when I sent him my copy of the files, V8 didn't open properly. So even just V8 would be helpful.

EDIT: NVM I found a working one.

in future i find that annas(dash)archive.org is a good place to find epubs of novels, both translated and untranslated
replace the (dash) with, y'know, a dash

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

To avoid " Well, It's done through science so it will bypass their resistance" and such.
Do we need to make a CRT that shows the connection between science and magic in Arifureta ? What do we need ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

To avoid " Well, It's done through science so it will bypass their resistance" and such. Do we need to make a CRT that shows the connection between science and magic in Arifureta ? What do we need ?

Sorry I'm not sure what you are referring to

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Sorry I'm not sure what you are referring to

In some matches against characters that use technology their supporters keep repeating that.

For an example saying Hajime necklace can't null a device that create a gravitational field or warp space through technology.

Or can their element resistance help them resist non magical elements like regular fire ?

I have scans to prove that magic is just another form of science or even reality warping.

 

[Community_Gamer]

In some matches against characters that use technology their supporters keep repeating that.

For an example saying Hajime necklace can't null a device that create a gravitational field or warp space through technology.

Or can their element resistance help them resist non magical elements like regular fire ?

I have scans to prove that magic is just another form of science or even reality warping.

We just need a page properly explaining what Magic, Ancient Magic, and skills are as well as what they do. Although with another relevant power systems.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I'll start working on a page for A.M. spells. Can I just use the fandom then add the missing stuff from the novel ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

I'll start working on a page for A.M. spells. Can I just use the fandom then add the missing stuff from the novel ?

If you really think they provide a better explanation of said concepts and terminology then do what you want. If not then you should probably write it yourself

 

[Community_Gamer]

Let's start with this:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/arifureta-elemental-magic-spells.175774/

(I'll add the missing stuff in another CRT)

Nah let's not do needless CRTs. If you are going do then add all relevant information at once. You can break up between Elemental Magic, Ancient Magic, etc but try cover the topic fully.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

4D Mana and Elements + A.M.≈Elements:

Thread 'Arifureta: Smurf Mana and Elements'

Dec 29, 2024

(More about the Soul elements, soul and mana and lifeforce, cosmology in the previous threads)

Ancient Magic include:

Spoiler: Soul/Spirit Magic

Spirit Magic: The ability to interfere with souls. The more precise definition of spirit magic is magic that manipulates the incorporeal elements of sentient beings. In more concrete terms, it could be used to manipulate the heat, electricity, and other energy without matter that circulated within a person’s body. That also included things like memories, thoughts, and consciousness. With enough skill, a spirit magic user could take those...

• EL_xWatcher1234x
• arifureta arifureta: from commonplace to world's strongest arifureta: from commonplace to world’s strongest
• Replies: 33
• Forum: Content Revision

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I gathered these scans about the holy sanctuary:

1) The dimensions within are separated

When he reached the end of the corridor, Hajime touched the multicolored wall that seemed to be the end of this space. Ripples spread outward from the spot that he touched, and his hand slid into the colored wall. It looked like that spot did connect to somewhere else. And judging by his compass, their distance to Yue was the same on either side of the barrier. Vol 12 p45

2) Random destination

Unfortunately, the compass wasn’t able to give Hajime a clear picture of what was on the other side. In fact, it almost felt like wherever it was connected to was changing in real time, which was why he’d thrown a space-warping grenade over just in case. It was a new type of grenade that twisted the space around it into a whirlpool and crushed anything caught in it. It was extremely lethal while also being perfectly silent. Vol 12 p45

3) Space between dimensions ?

The transition between places was dizzying. A kaleidoscope of colors assailed the group from all sides, making them feel drunk. There was also a disgusting sensation of something slippery brushing against their skin. Fortunately, the whole experience lasted only a few seconds. Vol 12 p46

4) Borders between dimensions

A second later, the flesh beast’s tentacles shot out toward the two of them. Their ends were tapered and sharp enough to pierce through flesh. Yue pulled away from Hajime’s neck and stuck her hand outtoward the tentacles. The space in front of her warped, tearing open a hole to another dimension. The tentacles passed through the hole and were immediately destroyed.

Yue had opened a portal to another disintegrating section of the Sanctuary and let thembe destroyed along with it. Normally, that would have taken a lot of mana, but as the Sanctuary was falling apart, the borders between dimensions were quite thin and she was able to do it efficiently. Vol 13 p225

5) Those dimensions differ in size

“This is the fourth zone we have passed through. Is Ehit toying with us?” Tio asked with a frown.

“He might be. This is his domain, after all. He probably gets to choose where we get transported.”

After passing through the portal atop the clock tower, Hajime and the others had passed through three other zones. The first had been a dimension where the ground and the sky were flipped, and gravity was inconsistent. The objects inside that dimension had seemed to fall in all different directions. The second zone had been a museum of sorts. It had been an underground labyrinth with busts and statues at every corner. The statues were of humans, demons, beastmen, dwarves, and giants, as well as monsters and creatures Hajime had never seen before. The third zone had been a library. There was no sky or ground to speak of, just an endless expanse of white filled with bookshelves. The books were seemingly written in every language under the sun and bound in all sorts of unique ways.

“Is that why all the enemies we ran into were super annoying? Because he’s messing with us?” Shea asked, clapping her hands together in realization.

In the upside-down world, they’d been assailed by a flock of pyramid-shaped inorganic automatons that had been made of some unknown material. They’d been able to control gravity and had moved in a tight formation like fighterplanes. Though in the end, Hajime had blown them all to bits with his Agni Orkans. In the museum world, they’d been attacked by the statues, as everyone had been expecting. Hajime had blown them all to bits too with his Agni Orkans. In the library, the books had cast magic at the party and summoned monsters. And so, Hajime had carried out the biggest book burning in history with his Agni Orkans. Vol 12 p162

6) Other dimensions

The sea of clouds had finally parted, and as it dissipated, the area below it finally became visible. However, the sky below was distorted, as if everyone was looking at it through a fish-eye lens. And far below that distorted space was a familiar sight. Suzu and the others could see a fortress sitting in the middle of a flat plain...with thousands upon thousands of people fighting against an army of apostles. But then, the distortion suddenly vanished, and other distortions appeared elsewhere in the sky in multiple places. They showed the dimensions Shea and the others had passed through, as well as other areas they didn’t recognize.

The ominous rumbling grew stronger, and the distortions that connected to other dimensions started appearing and disappearing more quickly and more frequently than ever. Vol 12 p283

The distortion connect them to other dimensions and to ouside(Tortus).

7) Ehit throne room

With Shea’s and Tio’s words of encouragement ringing in his ears, Hajime allowed the pillar of white light to whisk him away. He sped through a kaleidoscope of rainbow-patterned space, then arrived in a world of pure white. It was impossible to tell how far it stretched. He couldn’t see any walls or ceiling or even the ground. Everything everywhere was white, and though he could feel his feet touching something when he looked down, it looked no different from anything else.

If this was Ehit’s throne room, it was a fitting one indeed.

“Welcome to the heart of my Sanctuary." Vol 13 p139

8) Ehit can change their size separately

As soon as he reached Hajime’s height, the altar below began to get farther away. It was as if the two of them had suddenly shot up much higher into the air. In truth, though, it was the ground that had gotten farther away, for Ehitruje had expanded the amount of space in this dimension. Vol 13 p142

9) Time

WN
Regeneration magic was ‘magic that interfere at time’. The use of regeneration magic was more of restoration rather than healing, it was just a portion of it. Originally it was possible to interfere with time itself using this magic, it could catch a glimpse of the past or take a peek at several branches of the procession of time. Shia’s characteristic magic of ‘Future Viewing’ was likely originated from this magic.

LN
Restoration magic was magic that manipulated time. Which explained why in her message, Meiru had described it as magic that restores and not magic that heals. However, it could do more than just restore things to a previous state. Since it could interfere with time directly, it could be used to look into the past or potential futures based on set decision variables. Shea’s Future Sight was, in fact, just one application of restoration magic.

Time Manipulation, Restoration and Retrocognition (Can return things to a prior state. Can reproduce images of events that occurred in the past,[26] and also reopen wounds that occurred in the past[24])

Time Manipulation, Restoration and Retrocognition (Restoration magic allows her to interfere with time. Using this she can reopen wounds that occurred in the past,[11] and also peer into the past[12])

He showed a past projection of his world which require reading the timeline

The pure-white dimension they were fighting in suddenly turned into a giant television screen, showing a vision of space, with stars twinkling in the distance. Ehitruje was using restoration magic to recreate a scene from the past, it seemed. He looked over at one of the stars, which was emitting an erratic, unnatural glow. Vol 13 p159

“We took things too far. In the end, we destroyed the rules that governed the natural order of the universe. Humanity, and the very star we lived on, was doomed to destruction, so only the chosen Enlightened could survive.” Vol 13 p161

When Ehitruje’s companions had said “that’s enough,” they must have thought that civilization would be able to thrive just fine without them and that the people of the old world were no longer needed. And so, in order to prevent the tragedy that had happened to their universe, they chose to live and die as humans rather than as gods. Vol 13 p181

Altough the laws(A.M.) of his worlds were destroyed.

A demon was able to replay an event that happened in Tortus while being in Hell.

But, because Hajime used the minimum movement to dodge, when they passed each other the knight’s foot slightly touched Hajime’s shoulder.

In that instant,

「–!?」

「Hajime-san!?」

Blood burst out from Hajime’s body.

Shia swung around a huge metal ball to mow down the surrounding while leaping toward Hajime.

「Are you alright!?」

「No problem! But, it’s troublesome.」

Hajime’s mouth caught the recovery medicine he took out from empty air, bit off the ampoule and drank. His wounds vanished right away, but the places of the wound were problematic. A lot of the wounds were in familiar places.

「Wound’s……playback?」

「Yeah, it was only for an instant so the playback didn’t really go far, but it would be dangerous if all the wounds got rewound.」

It was superpower of age of god magic on parade. Hajime smiled bitterly. Ch 345

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

This will likely be my last post of the year (or the first depending on where you are), very unfortunate indeed.

1) The dimensions within are separated

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

2) Random destination

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

3) Space between dimensions ?

Whatever you are trying to do the answer is, no.

4) Borders between dimensions

Whatever you are trying to do the answer is, no.

5) Those dimensions differ in size

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

6) Other dimensions

The distortion connect them to other dimensions and to ouside(Tortus).

Whatever you are trying to do the answer is, no.

7) Ehit throne room

Whatever you are trying to do the answer is, no.

8) Ehit can change their size separately

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

9) Time

Whatever you are trying to do the answer is, no. He is not affecting the timeline in such a massive way that he is literally manipulating the timeline of a universe with broken laws or something like that as you are trying to make it look, this is neither a range feat nor some power feat, he is just projecting an image he already knew in the pocket dimension that he created and controls, please don't try to super read between the lines that doesn't exist and create some hyper impressive feat, you can't get more from this whole scene than what is already in the profiles.

A demon was able to replay an event that happened in Tortus while being in Hell.

... No, he didn't do anything remotely close to that... he just reponed the wounds that the person in front of him had in the past through the basic restoration magic spell that we already knew, he is not recreating an event from another universe or affecting the timeline in some super crazy and impressive way (so not a range feat or power feat), he just affected the time of the body of the individual he had in front in the same way that all previous demonstrations of this spell have done.


Happy New Year to everyone reading this.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

Not much. It could be helpful in the future.

Whatever you are trying to do the answer is, no.

3,4,6,7
Not trying anything, but why you disagree ?

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

The library could be infinite in size

And? We already knew that, it's not new information and doesn't change anything.

This could be added to their pocket reality manipulation, and we know Hajime use Space magic to control the size of his workshop and The Miniature Garden.

『By the way, Goshujin-sama. How big art the size of the Miniature Garden currently?』

「In that case……ah? Size? It’s more or less, around the size of earth I guess. The expansion stopped there. The Miniature Garden itself is a spherical space. However, the construction is like the application of the flat earth theory.」

Whoops, Hajime thought while returning his mind to reality.

Willpower that was imported practically by root and branch from the earth’s King Tree plus unlimited magic power.

The amount of energy was overflowing. If automatic brake wasn’t applied to the expansion, the “Miniature Garden” would expand without end. And so for the time being, Hajime kept the size to be similar to some degree with earth as the model.

However, it didn’t mean there was a spherically-shaped land like a planet. The sphere in the end was nothing more than the shape of the space.

At the center of the spherical space was the Treasure Tree. The “surface” part when the space was split into hemisphere state was the land. That was the whole picture of the “Miniature Garden”.

And so, the sky became lower the further one went toward the edge. Below the land there was also a vast space where there was nothing in the shape of hemisphere.

That was just for the time being though. Ch 481

At least we know that dimension created by Space magic can expand endlessly.

... No, he didn't do anything remotely close to that... he just reponed the wounds that the person in front of him had in the past through the basic restoration magic spell that we already knew, he is not recreating an event from another universe or affecting the timeline in some super crazy and impressive way (so not a range feat or power feat), he just affected the time of the body of the individual he had in front in the same way that all previous demonstrations of this spell have done.

Either each realm has its own A.M. or they dedtroyed indirectly them by separating their realm from the branch.

How could their universe and planet and Tree still exist after they destroyed A.M. ?

「Ehito’s original world, the existence of that world itself has been confirmed. That guy said that world was destroyed, but it looks like the planet itself is still there. Let’s name this planet “Calamity World” and the tree “Grudge Tree”.」

「Your hate to Ehito is overflowing from that naming. Well, it’s really a world that was visited by calamity anyway, and if the World Tree’s Branch there is still alive, I think it’s highly possible it will be resentful that the planet is ruined.」Ch 386

They probably did something to their tree

『The majestic great tree. The protector tree of the sea of trees. The symbol of the holy ground. As someone who has been together with the great tree ever since I was born, there is something that I have been sensing somehow all this time.』

Was this just the biggest and oldest tree in the world?

Was it the center of the sea of trees?

No, that wasn’t all there was to it. This tree wasn’t something that could simply be described as this world’s symbol.

『It’s more, yes, it feels like this tree is taking root even deeper, until the core of this world……I am not talking about physically, but conceptually, it feels like the tree is connected to something that surpass human’s understanding……pardon me. I can’t really describe it well……』

Lyutilis stared at empty air as she desperately tried to put the sensation she was feeling into words, however, in the end she couldn’t find the right word and smiled wryly. She then turned her gaze toward Hajime and co again.

But there, her eyes were the eyes of a transcendental who had arrived at the highest peak of human knowledge. It was the shudderingly deep gaze of the user of an age of god magic for interfering with information.

『But, please at least remember this. That the great tree is not merely an ancient and large tree. Losing the great tree might possibly lead to a disaster that cannot be undone.』Ch 437

The source of A.M. could be the branch itself while the great trees work as an avatar that apply those concepts to the realms.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

3,4,6,7
Not trying anything, but why you disagree ?

Because I can see that you are trying to extrapolate this or use it as justification to get something completely different, all of these quote are quite clear and straight to the point, and they are already acknowledged, so there's really not much to do with them, and you very clearly are trying to do something else with them.

The library could be infinite in size

Just because something seems/feels infinite doesn't actually mean it is actually infinite, much less in the context of them just trying to go to the next place and not seeing an end to the place, it would be the equivalent of me saying that the Sahara is infinite/endless after walking for an hour and not see any change in the surroundings.

This could be added to their pocket reality manipulation, and we know Hajime use Space magic to control the size of his workshop and The Miniature Garden.

That Ehit can change the size

Is able to freely change the size<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ehitorujue#cite_note-Arifureta_Volume_13,_Chapter_4-8">[8]</a> of his dimensions as he please)

And we already know that the Miniature Garden can increase in size, like, we have know for years that it expanded to be the size of a planet, so that's nothing new.

Either each realm has its own A.M. or they dedtroyed indirectly them by separating their realm from the branch.

How could their universe and planet and Tree still exist after they destroyed A.M. ?

They probably did something to their tree

The source of A.M. could be the branch itself while the great trees work as an avatar that apply those concepts to the realms.

Dude, is not that "each realm has its own A.M", we are told that ancient magic controls the most fundamental aspects of the universe, that's why it works in every universe, and why even with the power of other universes it can accomplish the same things. You are making ca omplete headcanon, they caused the destruction of their world, and we know it wasn't a literal destruction because their original planet still exist, so it was instead a sort of apocalictic event that made live impossible to continue, like what happened in Hell that made it so live forms couldn't continue living as a race there, so there was no "destruction of fundamental laws", "destruction of the concepts of the universe" or anything like that, you don't get any cosmology upgrade from that as you want, because there's nothing remotely close to what you are trying to imply.


Saving quotes is always something fine, I have done so myself, and sharing them with others is also not a problem at all, but in your case you aren't posting them just to save up them or just for sharing, you want to accomplish something more with them, you want to use them to upgrade things, which in itself is also completely fine but the problem is that you aren't stating your proposition with them, you aren't explaining the logic that would justify an upgrade, and that's precisely why this ends becoming a meaningless post that doesn't get anything, it just tires and confuse people as to what was the purpose of it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Just because something seems/feels infinite doesn't actually mean it is actually infinite, much less in the context of them just trying to go to the next place and not seeing an end to the place, it would be the equivalent of me saying that the Sahara is infinite/endless after walking for an hour and not see any change in the surroundings.

Could be
Maybe Hajime used the compass ?
Or the white space was so big it seemed infinite

The third zone had been a library. There was no sky or ground to speak of, just an endless expanse of white filled with bookshelves. The books were seemingly written in every language under the sun and bound in all sorts of unique ways.

And it was but narrated.

And we already know that the Miniature Garden can increase in size, like, we have know for years that it expanded to be the size of a planet, so that's nothing new.

Just trying to add size manipulation to expert Space magic users.

Dude, is not that "each realm has its own A.M", we are told that ancient magic controls the most fundamental aspects of the universe, that's why it works in every universe, and why even with the power of other universes it can accomplish the same things. You are making ca omplete headcanon, they caused the destruction of their world, and we know it wasn't a literal destruction because their original planet still exist, so it was instead a sort of apocalictic event that made live impossible to continue,

“We took things too far. In the end, we destroyed the rules that governed the natural order of the universe. Humanity, and the very star we lived on, was doomed to destruction, so only the chosen Enlightened could survive.” Vol 13 p161

(Star is mistranslation)
You think a normal destruction will be enough to wipe a whole planet of Ancient magic users ?
Why would they bother traveling to another universe if the damage was on a small scall or reversible ?

like what happened in Hell that made it so live forms couldn't continue living as a race there, so there was no "destruction of fundamental laws", "destruction of the concepts of the universe" or anything like that, you don't get any cosmology upgrade from that as you want, because there's nothing remotely close to what you are trying to imply.

Hell is a different case.
The planet was changed Yes, but nothing about "destroying order".

Saving quotes is always something fine, I have done so myself, and sharing them with others is also not a problem at all, but in your case you aren't posting them just to save up them or just for sharing, you want to accomplish something more with them, you want to use them to upgrade things, which in itself is also completely fine but the problem is that you aren't stating your proposition with them, you aren't explaining the logic that would justify an upgrade, and that's precisely why this ends becoming a meaningless post that doesn't get anything, it just tires and confuse people as to what was the purpose of it.

You seemed uninterested in the verse, and I've been asking multiple time but only got answers from Community and Digital. They're knowledgeable about the verse, but not enough to correct me sometimes.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Could be

No.

Just trying to add size manipulation to expert Space magic users.

Unless the standards of size manipulation have changed, that's not size manipulation, like at all, I don't even know why you think it is.

(Star is mistranslation)
You think a normal destruction will be enough to wipe a whole planet of Ancient magic users ?
Why would they bother traveling to another universe if the damage was on a small scall or reversible ?

(Hoshi can mean celestial body in general so is not really a bad translation, even less if you consider it as just poetic prose)
People in Hell could use ancient magic and they still were whipped out so hard that 1) They had to evolve to mental life forms and give up their bodies 2) Because of giving up their bodies they were super limited in the things they could do.

Who said it was on a small scale? Like with the Hell example, we know the whole planet went to shit, and it didn't matter how advanced their magic and technology it was they couldn't just solve it and fix the planet.

You severely misunderstand a lot of shit, the ancient magic user that we know and follow (Hajime party, the Liberators and Ehit companions) are the absolute best of the best, we are told that they are literal super genius in each of their ancient magic, so just because they can do a lot of amazing shit doesn't mean that anyone having ancient magic can perform as well as them, the proof is how all the royal demons of Hell and apparitions just get overwhelmed when fighting the protagonists or their allies.

Hell is a different case.
The planet was changed Yes, but nothing about "destroying order".

Sure.

You seemed uninterested in the verse, and I've been asking multiple time but only got answers from Community and Digital. They're knowledgeable about the verse, but not enough to correct me sometimes.

Being uninterested in the verse doesn't really mean you should just post random stuff trying to upgrade things, expecting the other side to miraculously know what exactly you are proposing or trying to accomplish. You need to explain clearly your points and logic. Otherwise, you lose people because they don't get what you are doing. It's one of the basic points of debating/arguing.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What do you think about this ?

Soul Magic--> Darkness
Gravity Magic--> Darkness
Time Magic--> Light
Space Magic--> Light, Wind, Water and possibly darkness

4D Mana and Elements + A.M.≈Elements:

Thread 'Arifureta: Smurf Mana and Elements'

Dec 29, 2024

(More about the Soul elements, soul and mana and lifeforce, cosmology in the previous threads)

Ancient Magic include:

Spoiler: Soul/Spirit Magic

Spirit Magic: The ability to interfere with souls. The more precise definition of spirit magic is magic that manipulates the incorporeal elements of sentient beings. In more concrete terms, it could be used to manipulate the heat, electricity, and other energy without matter that circulated within a person’s body. That also included things like memories, thoughts, and consciousness. With enough skill, a spirit magic user could take those...

• EL_xWatcher1234x
• arifureta arifureta: from commonplace to world's strongest arifureta: from commonplace to world’s strongest
• Replies: 33
• Forum: Content Revision

 

[Community_Gamer]

What do you think about this ?

Soul Magic--> Darkness
Gravity Magic--> Darkness
Time Magic--> Light
Space Magic--> Light, Wind, Water and possibly darkness

Can you justify this in anyway?

 

[Community_Gamer]

I just want to say that I agree with everything @Expectro2000xxx was saying. @EL_xWatcher1234x I appreciate the enthusiasm however you really make it difficult when don't form complete propositions or arguments.



Also despite some of us not always being super active in the thread, most of us still keep up with the series. I'm personally rescaling it and gathering scans (on Vol12 atm). So if there's major revelations in the story...I guarantee you won't be the only one discussing it or pushing for chan ge.