• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Arceus Hax/Intelligence Downgrade: Compositing is bad

Bobsican

He/Him
Messages
21,653
Reaction score
6,291
Okay, I was asked by @Sniper670 to do this thread.

Anyways, there was this CRT to claim that Arceus has all the powers in the setting of Pokémon, be it from any species or method regardless of if a type was directly involved or not, except it got explicitly rejected.

Why, you may ask? @DontTalkDT has been quite explicit on powers coming from a given source not translating into the source itself inherently gaining all usages of it, but to give a brief summary of points given and debunks directly from him:

Omniscient (The Heart holds all creation as part of itself, existing purely as consciousness that holds the concept of knowledge, Uxie; who has dominion of knowledge in the multiverse, as an extension/aspect of it's avatar).

No, Arceus isn't omniscient, not only he was unaware where the Jewel of Life was, and even required Ash to yell at him to remind him he already had it even after they time traveled to get it back to him, there's also the matter that as DT said, the concept of knowledge and knowledge per-say just aren't inherently related and DT has even brought up a case to make a example of that, so not only this is an exaggeration to say the least, it's setting a bad precedent while ignoring beraucrat input.

The Cosmic Awareness thing I was sent about Arceus is also poor evidence, not only it's explicit on Arceus just watching over the present, the idea of Arceus having already seen all events from the start to the end not only is way more assumptive, it's also contradicted by the above.

At best I'd advocate for a Nigh-Omniscient rating from stuff like this and the recontextualization on the CA not being that good, which in fact was a previous rating Arceus had.

Arceus has the powers of all Pokémon as their powers come from his plates to begin with, which are a part of him and can use them freely.

Also a no, I'm afraid. Merely being the source of a power doesn't mean that the user gets access to any application whatsoever of it, the burden of proof is on the one making the outlandish claim, and it's far from the standard to grant creator deities all powers in their verse to them.

Another argument was also brought up based on the plates being what granted the Pokémon moves and abilities, but as DT also said, such statements don't even lean that way over the plates being merely an energy source, going back to the previous point of that not being usable evidence for this either.

Arceus is the supreme god-tier character in the series, and so by creating everything he has all powers.

As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.

The amount of moves that can be learned correlates with power. Arceus is clearly intended to be portrayed as an "omnipotent" entity and so should get everything, and even if the games blatantly contradict this it's just a game mechanic.

Probably the worst argument of the bunch, not only is this misusing scans (that are even noted to not be factual per-say in-universe) to make a false narrative as in reality there's nothing to correlate the example used (Regidrago, which is also dubious in-universe anyways) to the energy of the plates, as DT explains in the thread, there's hardly any precedent for a sufficiently strong Pokémon having every single move of its own type, straight up headcanon aside, especially as there's several attributes necessary beyond just a type to use a move or ability as DT also said.

We also don't grant powers just because a character is called "omnipotent", as it's a blatant NLF for our purposes, which is why we generally restrict to stuff characters have been shown to do in the first place.

Arceus can create Pokémon so they do their powers for him, like a Pokémon Trainer

Also sets a bad precedent as said by DT, we don't grant powers to a character as if they were inherent aspects of them by just summoning/creating something with a power already displayed in the setting, at best that'd need a separate section on the page, especially to avoid compositing as there's not sufficient evidence to combine every P&A in the series at the same time to Arceus.

----

Apparently even after @DontTalkDT explicitly declined this, this eventually got passed again in this CRT later on. The problem? I've noticed that DT hasn't commented in that thread at all, and that combined with how lower-ranking staff were clearly willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus on the past CRT leans me to believe this isn't accurate, and so here I am bringing up the topic again to see if we should either at best rewrite our site standards or just downgrade Arceus. After reading the OP, it also appears that it's just reiterating the same stuff as the above with just an extra statement saying that the plates have "every type's powers", which is still vague and with the above stuff still rendering questionable the premise, plus a few other things that fall apart without its other questionable premises passing.

I'd also advocate for a Discussion Rule on the matter as it's clear this is controversial and keeps going back and forth, regardless of conclusion.
 
Just s a heads up theres already an ongoing revision to remove the compositing of all the pokemon profiles
 
That's more of a canon split.

This is a separate concern altogether that won't really change much regardless of how that goes.
 
I'm a big KH and Pokémon fan, I don't really mind Arceus winning so long there's a good reasoning for it, and while there is regardless, the way Arceus is being treated seems inappropiate to say the least. I really appreciate proper indexing on the site.
 
Isn't that intelligence rating for the real Arceus? The example (anti-feat) in the OP are his avatars which are limited to what they are shown, no?
 
Well, the thing is that the "real" Arceus is the mind behind the avatars to begin with, so...
 
Well, the thing is that the "real" Arceus is the mind behind the avatars to begin with, so...
He makes them, but is it controlling their actions? It's clear they aren't the real one otherwise they'd just be it with a body. But if it's directly stated that it's the real Arceus guiding their actions then I'd agree, but if it's just "I'll make you" and it has a specific function, I wouldn't compare the two in intelligence.

But I'm not knowledge enough on Pokemon so I'll just wait and see. If there isn't a real counter argument to the anti feat then I guess Nigh-Omniscient is fine.
 
He makes them, but is it controlling their actions? It's clear they aren't the real one otherwise they'd just be it with a body. But if it's directly stated that it's the real Arceus guiding their actions then I'd agree, but if it's just "I'll make you" and it has a specific function, I wouldn't compare the two in intelligence.

But I'm not knowledge enough on Pokemon so I'll just wait and see. If there isn't a real counter argument to the anti feat then I guess Nigh-Omniscient is fine.
I mean, we have stuff like in PLA it being stated that the "body" is nothing more than a part of Arceus. Part of the tier 1 reasonings for Arceus in the first place rely on this kind of semantics, as the avatar is clearly 3D for the purposes of interacting with other characters.
 
I agree with my own statements of course, but will probably not get too deeply involved here. While I occasionally get involved in Pkmn debates I'm just not invested in it that I'm very motivated regarding debate and upkeep of the verse.
So I will leave this up to what staff thinks for the most part. The arguments are there, after all. Not voting for now.

@Sniper670 has a scan showcasing how the director of the movie purposely nerfed Arceus for the sake of the plot.
(Edit, cause this is in interesting kind of argument to make) Y'know, the thing is we are ranking characters by how they are shown. Just because we know the author had a reason to give them a weakness, doesn't null the existence of the weakness. Similarily to how an author having a reason to show a strength doesn't make the strength void.

Given, the main problem is that Arceus has no reason to be ranked omniscient to begin with. Since the knowledge concept stuff means nothing, the best statements regarding intelligence are cases of him being able to observe the whole world and that's not enough for Omniscience even if there were no anti-feats whatsoever.
 
Last edited:
totally disagree with using jewel of life for that, we already accept that movie as being full of PIS and a bad characterization of arceus, who in the games is both portrayed as not having the same limitations and not being as naive and unstable as the movie, plus the whole "nerf" he got, and i disagree with separating the concept of knownledge from actual knownledge in this case, cuz uxie's knownledge is directly stated to have brought intelligence and is related to memories, besides the fact that he controls it, even if that downgrades it to nigh omnscient, it still works as supporting evidence of arceus knowning all the moves' information like how to do them and how they work

arceus' heart, which is also refered to as his mind, exists through both space and time, so yes he does view the beginning and ending of things, and the scan sent doesn't limit it to the present, they say he is always watching them, that's it, that can apply to someone watching them through time as well, also legend plate says that arceus watches over all creations, so yeah the CA is still good, plus dialga literally heard other's calling for it in other periods of time and arceus scales to dailga so there is that

also disagree with him losing the plates powers.

Also a no, I'm afraid. Merely being the source of a power doesn't mean that the user gets access to any application whatsoever of it, the burden of proof is on the one making the outlandish claim, and it's far from the standard to grant creator deities all powers in their verse to them.

Another argument was also brought up based on the plates being what granted the Pokémon moves and abilities, but as DT also said, such statements don't even lean that way over the plates being merely an energy source, going back to the previous point of that not being usable evidence for this either.


we literally have characters scaling to other's hax and such simply by having the same energy, like ki users in dragon ball, or sharing a physiology, and yet being the source of a power and literally it's creator doesn't? fire type pokemon use fire moves because they have fire energy, that's it, some may have unique moves but is all fire energy in the end

even if they are just a energy source, i already proved in that thread that the moves and abilities use the energy of their types, and said types can be changed or removed due to energy, so the energy source should be able to use them if they simple know how, and the nigh-omniscient watcher should know how because he is "always watching all creations", even if it was just in the present, and he would remember it cuz memories are part of uxie and he remembers shit from centuries ago after sleeping

also, sniper brought a new translation that said that it granted "every type's power" which leans more to the abilities themselves, plus in the anime arceus used the splash plate explicitly to use a water move so yeah, more evidence on that


As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.

yeah i disagree with using it even as a support evidence ngl, even if usable it would be very weak and a double standard

there's nothing to correlate the example used (Regidrago, which is also dubious in-universe anyways) to the energy of the plates, as DT explains in the thread, there's hardly any precedent for a sufficiently strong Pokémon having every single move of its own type, straight up headcanon aside, especially as there's several attributes necessary beyond just a type to use a move or ability as DT also said.

Plates literally have stataments correlating them to the powers of pokemon, unlike regidraco, also DT only brought 2 kinds of example, a physiology absed which is not assumed to be on arceus by default and only with transform, and a single move as a example, which doesn't apply to arceus because he obviously would have the knownledge to use it even if his intelligence gets downgraded and his CA limited to the present


Also sets a bad precedent as said by DT, we don't grant powers to a character as if they were inherent aspects of them by just summoning/creating something with a power already displayed in the setting, at best that'd need a separate section on the page, especially to avoid compositing as there's not sufficient evidence to combine every P&A in the series at the same time to Arceus.

agree too, summoning and even power bestowing =/= scaling to powers given unless more evidence

Apparently even after @DontTalkDT explicitly declined this, this eventually got passed again in this CRT later on. The problem? I've noticed that DT hasn't commented in that thread at all, and that combined with how lower-ranking staff were clearly willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus on the past CRT leans me to believe this isn't accurate, and so here I am bringing up the topic again to see if we should either at best rewrite our site standards or just downgrade Arceus. After reading the OP, it also appears that it's just reiterating the same stuff as the above with just an extra statement saying that the plates have "every type's powers", which is still vague and with the above stuff still rendering questionable the premise, plus a few other things that fall apart without its other questionable premises passing.

Staff rank shouldn't matter to get a thread approved if the majority agrees with it, and is kinda on DT for not commenting to begin with, also please point example of staff "willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus"

i'll be frank, i don't understand why staff even matters in this case, sure i get it for wiki related changes like our attack potency page, but this is something related to knownledge of the verse, if the staff is not knownledgable, their vote should matter less than a normal user's vote who are experienced with it, not saying DT or anyone else is or isn't qualified, just commenting on it

is reiterating stuff because there was a thread before that only got the moves accepted for some inexplicable reason, which explicitly brought new arguments, and more importantly, organized them in a single CRT because they were put in the dozens of comments and pages of the IAM's thread, kinda making it impossible to properly analyse them

reminder that those arguments are supposed to work togheter, not as singular evidence, is not "okay this is why arceus has all the powers, oh and this supports it", is more like "types' moves and abilities use energy, energy that needs to learning and skill to mold and use, plates have both energy and have shown to use moves with them, arceus has the knownledge on how to use it, arceus should be able to use them"

i am neutral on arceus getting literally 100% of the verse's power tbh, but i totally agree that he should have all pokemon moves and general powers (like dex entries or anime showings, like gardevoir's black hole explicitly being done with "psychic power"), unsure on the passive abilities since we even have to choose which ability they have in VS matches for instance tbh but i'm neutral on that too
 
Last edited:
Also just a question, why are we still calling it a canon split, even in the new blog linked in the page?

Wasn't it agreed that at least the anime, manga and games were canon to each other sharing a cosmology, and that cross scaling is what's nuked now?

It just sounds unnecessarily misleading, or i might have missed some talk and i'm just wrong about it, but y'all brought up the movie and stuff
 
Also just a question, why are we still calling it a canon split, even in the new blog linked in the page?

Wasn't it agreed that at least the anime, manga and games were canon to each other sharing a cosmology, and that cross scaling is what's nuked now?

It just sounds unnecessarily misleading, or i might have missed some talk and just be wrong, but y'all brought up the movie and stuff
Because people like the sound of "canon split" better than "cross-scaling split". That's literally it.
 
Because people like the sound of "canon split" better than "cross-scaling split". That's literally it.
Oh, yeah i thought that could be it, eeeh alright then, plus it is kinda accurate since we are at least removing secondary games from it IIRC

scaling split could work tho idk
 
I disagree. The Arceus in the anime is a heavily nerfed and modified one who was made specifically for the movie.

In PLA, humans literally go to Uxie for any question at all they want to ask him, why? He's literally the very concept of knowledge. It has Dominion over knowledge itself.

And Uxie is merely an aspect of Arceus

Please refrain from using the anime's depiction of Arceus to discredit his status, as the director himself confirmed although he's Omnipotent and Omniscient, they had to resort to ways to nerf him.

It's pis
 
totally disagree with using jewel of life for that, we already accept that movie as being full of PIS and a bad characterization of arceus, who in the games is both portrayed as not having the same limitations and not being as naive and unstable as the movie, plus the whole "nerf" he got, and i disagree with separating the concept of knownledge from actual knownledge in this case, cuz uxie's knownledge is directly stated to have brought intelligence and is related to memories, besides the fact that he controls it, even if that downgrades it to nigh omnscient, it still works as supporting evidence of arceus knowning all the moves' information like how to do them and how they work

arceus' heart, which is also refered to as his mind, exists through both space and time, so yes he does view the beginning and ending of things, and the scan sent doesn't limit it to the present, they say he is always watching them, that's it, that can apply to someone watching them through time as well, also legend plate says that arceus watches over all creations, so yeah the CA is still good, plus dialga literally heard other's calling for it in other periods of time and arceus scales to dailga so there is that

also disagree with him losing the plates powers.

Also a no, I'm afraid. Merely being the source of a power doesn't mean that the user gets access to any application whatsoever of it, the burden of proof is on the one making the outlandish claim, and it's far from the standard to grant creator deities all powers in their verse to them.

Another argument was also brought up based on the plates being what granted the Pokémon moves and abilities, but as DT also said, such statements don't even lean that way over the plates being merely an energy source, going back to the previous point of that not being usable evidence for this either.


we literally have characters scaling to other's hax and such simply by having the same energy, like ki users in dragon ball, or sharing a physiology, and yet being the source of a power and literally it's creator doesn't? fire type pokemon use fire moves because they have fire energy, that's it, some may have unique moves but is all fire energy in the end

even if they are just a energy source, i already proved in that thread that the moves and abilities use the energy of their types, and said types can be changed or removed due to energy, so the energy source should be able to use them if they simple know how, and the nigh-omniscient watcher should know how because he is "always watching all creations", even if it was just in the present, and he would remember it cuz memories are part of uxie and he remembers shit from centuries ago after sleeping

also, sniper brought a new translation that said that it granted "every type's power" which leans more to the abilities themselves, plus in the anime arceus used the splash plate explicitly to use a water move so yeah, more evidence on that


As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.

yeah i disagree with using it even as a support evidence ngl, even if usable it would be very weak and a double standard

there's nothing to correlate the example used (Regidrago, which is also dubious in-universe anyways) to the energy of the plates, as DT explains in the thread, there's hardly any precedent for a sufficiently strong Pokémon having every single move of its own type, straight up headcanon aside, especially as there's several attributes necessary beyond just a type to use a move or ability as DT also said.

Plates literally have stataments correlating them to the powers of pokemon, unlike regidraco, also DT only brought 2 kinds of example, a physiology absed which is not assumed to be on arceus by default and only with transform, and a single move as a example, which doesn't apply to arceus because he obviously would have the knownledge to use it even if his intelligence gets downgraded and his CA limited to the present


Also sets a bad precedent as said by DT, we don't grant powers to a character as if they were inherent aspects of them by just summoning/creating something with a power already displayed in the setting, at best that'd need a separate section on the page, especially to avoid compositing as there's not sufficient evidence to combine every P&A in the series at the same time to Arceus.

agree too, summoning and even power bestowing =/= scaling to powers given unless more evidence

Apparently even after @DontTalkDT explicitly declined this, this eventually got passed again in this CRT later on. The problem? I've noticed that DT hasn't commented in that thread at all, and that combined with how lower-ranking staff were clearly willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus on the past CRT leans me to believe this isn't accurate, and so here I am bringing up the topic again to see if we should either at best rewrite our site standards or just downgrade Arceus. After reading the OP, it also appears that it's just reiterating the same stuff as the above with just an extra statement saying that the plates have "every type's powers", which is still vague and with the above stuff still rendering questionable the premise, plus a few other things that fall apart without its other questionable premises passing.

Staff rank shouldn't matter to get a thread approved if the majority agrees with it, and is kinda on DT for not commenting to begin with, also please point example of staff "willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus"

i'll be frank, i don't understand why staff even matters in this case, sure i get it for wiki related changes like our attack potency page, but this is something related to knownledge of the verse, if the staff is not knownledgable, their vote should matter less than a normal user's vote who are experienced with it, not saying DT or anyone else is or isn't qualified, just commenting on it

is reiterating stuff because there was a thread before that only got the moves accepted for some inexplicable reason, which explicitly brought new arguments, and more importantly, organized them in a single CRT because they were put in the dozens of comments and pages of the IAM's thread, kinda making it impossible to properly analyse them

reminder that those arguments are supposed to work togheter, not as singular evidence, is not "okay this is why arceus has all the powers, oh and this supports it", is more like "types' moves and abilities use energy, energy that needs to learning and skill to mold and use, plates have both energy and have shown to use moves with them, arceus has the knownledge on how to use it, arceus should be able to use them"

i am neutral on arceus getting literally 100% of the verse's power tbh, but i totally agree that he should have all pokemon moves and general powers (like dex entries or anime showings, like gardevoir's black hole explicitly being done with "psychic power"), unsure on the passive abilities since we even have to choose which ability they have in VS matches for instance tbh but i'm neutral on that too
Thank you.

About abilities.

Pokémon can copy abilities and completely ignore the physiology required to use it. It also helps that some game worlds have Pokémon being able to use 3 or more different passives at once. Masters comes to mind
 
A bit of a nitpick regarding this scan, but the scan only suggests it holds dominion over knowledge. There's surely a much more concrete statement for Uxie you could have found.

Also, DT makes great points in the argument linked by the OP about examples of Characters who create Knowledge =/= Knowing all.

And, another nitpick but, all Legendaries in question here are genderless.


And Uxie is merely an aspect of Arceus
Looking at the single scan I could find supporting this (Which strangely, isn't even indexed in Uxie's profile in any way, which I would imagine would be important), the validity of this is... Questionable, at best. For one, it seems to come from a completely random book. Even looking past that, I'm beginning to find the idea of these beings being a part of Arceus to be difficult to believe. Even if they were made from Arceus itself, that doesn't inherently mean they remain a part of It, does it? Especially when we have these Pokemon showing off their own thoughts and agenda's very likely separate from Arceus (Palkia and Dialga fighting in various media, Giratina assisting Volo due to seeking Arceus's Downfall, etc.). I think that not only should this scan be reevaluated, but we should clarify where the line is for what is and isn't a part of another thing in this manner, and what can contribute to a character's powerset. And even if it is found that nothing is wrong as is, I would still think this should be more properly indexed, rather than forcing someone to search through Arceus's page to find it, it should be noted to some extent in the Summaries for those involved. That's just my two cents, of course, however.

I don't know if I sound stupid to some, but I find a random statement from a book about Dialga, Palkia, and the Lake Trio all originating from Arceus to be unconvincing at best as evidence for them being direct Aspects that are only a Fragment of Arceus's existence. Heck, this is even less convincing when looking at Giratina- The book said nothing in regards to it, and even though it is one of the three Creation Trio Members and presumably is of a similar existence as Dialga and Palkia, the fact that Arceus's profile state's Giratina is a aspect of it without any further evidence, and you combine that with statements of Giratina wanting to stand against Arceus, who presumably is supposed to have Giratina as a small piece of it's existence following this logic? I think we need to look at this with some more scrutiny, personally.
 
A bit of a nitpick regarding this scan, but the scan only suggests it holds dominion over knowledge. There's surely a much more concrete statement for Uxie you could have found.
As the concept of Knowledge and an embodiment of the aspect of the mind, giving him control over that abstraction as holding dominion over the concept of knowledge he embodies, I don't think there is anything better I could have provided than this
Also, DT makes great points in the argument linked by the OP about examples of Characters who create Knowledge =/= Knowing all.
He's the concept of knowledge, he has Dominion over it.

He's not creating ahything, he's It
And, another nitpick but, all Legendaries in question here are genderless.



Looking at the single scan I could find supporting this (Which strangely, isn't even indexed in Uxie's profile in any way, which I would imagine would be important), the validity of this is... Questionable, at best. For one, it seems to come from a completely random book. Even looking past that, I'm beginning to find the idea of these beings being a part of Arceus to be difficult to believe. Even if they were made from Arceus itself, that doesn't inherently mean they remain a part of It, does it? Especially when we have these Pokemon showing off their own thoughts and agenda's very likely separate from Arceus (Palkia and Dialga fighting in various media, Giratina assisting Volo due to seeking Arceus's Downfall, etc.). I think that not only should this scan be reevaluated, but we should clarify where the line is for what is and isn't a part of another thing in this manner, and what can contribute to a character's powerset. And even if it is found that nothing is wrong as is, I would still think this should be more properly indexed, rather than forcing someone to search through Arceus's page to find it, it should be noted to some extent in the Summaries for those involved. That's just my two cents, of course, however.
They're Arceus alternate personalities. Speaking about the CT themselves.

They're not puppets, of course they have thoughts of their own, but they're still Arceus, but in different aspects/personalties created to control the aspect they embody. Self Explanatory as they're alter egos


I don't know if I sound stupid to some, but I find a random statement from a book about Dialga, Palkia, and the Lake Trio all originating from Arceus to be unconvincing at best as evidence for them being direct Aspects that are only a Fragment of Arceus's existence.
"Random".
1. Its written directly on his plates
2. Humans worshipped the CT directly, so they didn't just wake up one day and decide to scribble down baseless info
3. This thing has been mentioned accross almost every media about the nature of the CT being alter egos.

Read The Blog on the Pokémon page

Heck, this is even less convincing when looking at Giratina- The book said nothing in regards to it, and even though it is one of the three Creation Trio Members and presumably is of a similar existence as Dialga and Palkia, the fact that Arceus's profile state's Giratina is a aspect of it without any further evidence, and you combine that with statements of Giratina wanting to stand against Arceus, who presumably is supposed to have Giratina as a small piece of it's existence following this logic? I think we need to look at this with some more scrutiny, personally.
Giratina existence is written directly on Arceus Plates as also an alter ego. Humans decided to not talk about him because of his violent nature and existence that isn't as readily available to them as the CT are. Which is why two factions worship the CT and Giratina is absent, as it's been banished.


NB: All these have been thoroughly explained by Executor_N0 and the blog is pinned directly on the page. At least read it first.
 
First, the Arceus movie barely hangs onto it's status of being canon by a string, we all know of the meteorite and the electric attacks and the silver water, but the fact of the fact that besides Arceus been affected by things far from it's cosmic levels of powers, even the plates have been pretty much retconned.

As not only does the general canon seem to be that multiple such plates lie about with how often they are found. Arceus is never in any urgeny of finding them and seems to more use them as a way to call to it (though it doesn't have to answer). But even in the anime itself, the plates that were used to create the Jewel of Life were also located in other places at the time the jewel was missing. That being the Draco and Spalsh Plates being a plot point in an anime episode that took place earlier than the movie should, as well as the power of the Splash Plate being used to seal Hoopa

Also besides just being omnipresent across time and space (and beyond) allowing it to see everything, it also has precognition from an ability that was translated as Omnipotence but whose actual names is:
ぜんちぜんのう Omniscience and Omnipotence.
 
As the concept of Knowledge and an embodiment of the aspect of the mind, giving him control over that abstraction as holding dominion over the concept of knowledge he embodies, I don't think there is anything better I could have provided than this
Look at the wording. Suggests. That means it does not confirm. Is it nitpicky? Yes. But I bet there is a much better scan to solidly, 100% confirm it's dominion over Knowledge.


He's the concept of knowledge, he has Dominion over it.

He's not creating ahything, he's It
That was in reference to Arceus, not Uxie.

"Random".
1. Its written directly on his plates
2. Humans worshipped the CT directly, so they didn't just wake up one day and decide to scribble down baseless info
3. This thing has been mentioned accross almost every media about the nature of the CT being alter egos.

Human's worshiping a god doesn't mean they can't get their facts wrong. That's certainly a possibility. Furthermore, in reference to the specific pages for Arceus and Uxie, this is the only piece of evidence presented. A book. From a shelf. With no name from what I can tell. That, quite literally, is the definition of random. Apologies if I didn't poke around for any strange, off the beaten path blogs and was expecting the proper evidence for a character's abilities to be on their own page.

They're Arceus alternate personalities. Speaking about the CT themselves.

They're not puppets, of course they have thoughts of their own, but they're still Arceus, but in different aspects/personalties created to control the aspect they embody. Self Explanatory as they're alter egos

Read The Blog on the Pokémon page


Giratina existence is written directly on Arceus Plates as also an alter ego. Humans decided to not talk about him because of his violent nature and existence that isn't as readily available to them as the CT are. Which is why two factions worship the CT and Giratina is absent, as it's been banished.


NB: All these have been thoroughly explained by Executor_N0 and the blog is pinned directly on the page. At least read it first.
After reading the blog (Which I had no idea of it's existence prior, and none of the pages in question seemed to imply any obvious connection to such a blog in the specifically relevant power's being discussed here), while this does seem to hold up for the CT at least following the logic, this very blog does not mention the Lake Trio as being Alter Ego's, and in fact, it even seems to state otherwise- "However the original intent was to show that the Creation Trio are Arceus' avatars, while the Lake Trio are not. They have their own wills and aren't just following what Arceus says to do, as avatars do."

Even though they specifically originate from One "Heart", it is heavily specified and implied throughout relevant sections that The Existence of The Lake Trio are far different from the "Bunshin", or Alter Ego's, of Arceus, those being the Creation Trio. Even ignoring how you concede to the Creation Trio having their own thought's with the text seemingly implying otherwise in this section, the matter of fact is, the blog purposefully makes a distinction that the Lake Trio are a different sort of set of Existences compared to the Creation Trio, and specifically avoids dubbing them as Alter Ego's. As such, it seems to me with this information that using Uxie as a way to measure Arceus's Knowledge is invalid, and that the idea that The Lake Trio are simply facets of Arceus's existence is not implied in the blog, but in fact is avoided and specified to not exactly be the case.
 
First, the Arceus movie barely hangs onto it's status of being canon by a string, we all know of the meteorite and the electric attacks and the silver water, but the fact of the fact that besides Arceus been affected by things far from it's cosmic levels of powers, even the plates have been pretty much retconned.

As not only does the general canon seem to be that multiple such plates lie about with how often they are found. Arceus is never in any urgeny of finding them and seems to more use them as a way to call to it (though it doesn't have to answer). But even in the anime itself, the plates that were used to create the Jewel of Life were also located in other places at the time the jewel was missing. That being the Draco and Spalsh Plates being a plot point in an anime episode that took place earlier than the movie should, as well as the power of the Splash Plate being used to seal Hoopa

Also besides just being omnipresent across time and space (and beyond) allowing it to see everything, it also has precognition from an ability that was translated as Omnipotence but whose actual names is:
ぜんちぜんのう Omniscience and Omnipotence.
The Jewel of life movie barely makes any sense at all... And is heavily contradicted by everything besides the movie itself

What was the Flame plate doing on Earth in Journeys if Arceus took them all with him to his own realm? It means whatever happened in JOL has no effect on the series itself
In addition to the other plates lying around long before Arceus decided to sacrifice them to make the JOL.
About Hoopa, I've watched the movie several times and I don't remember where they used Splash Plate. What happened is that Arceus gave humans the power to be able to call upon the 3 forces of Nature, and that's what they used to repair the bottle
 
Look at the wording. Suggests. That means it does not confirm. Is it nitpicky? Yes. But I bet there is a much better scan to solidly, 100% confirm it's dominion over Knowledge.
Because the books themselves hold information about the lore. Thef Lake Trio exists with humans

They literally go to it for information/knowledge as it embodies that aspect itself..

This isn't nitpicking. You're simply refusing to accept it
That was in reference to Arceus, not Uxie.
No. That was in reference to Uxie
Human's worshiping a god doesn't mean they can't get their facts wrong. That's certainly a possibility. Furthermore, in reference to the specific pages for Arceus and Uxie, this is the only piece of evidence presented. A book. From a shelf. With no name from what I can tell. That, quite literally, is the definition of random. Apologies if I didn't poke around for any strange, off the beaten path blogs and was expecting the proper evidence for a character's abilities to be on their own page.
Yes, they did not wake up one day and decide to write fanfiction here. Lore was gotten from information received from worshipping these gods. And yes, the lake trio are directly connected to humans as mentioned Uxie embodies knowledge itself, people go to it for information/knowledge, which certainly supports the records suggesting it holds dominion over the concept he embodies.
After reading the blog (Which I had no idea of it's existence prior, and none of the pages in question seemed to imply any obvious connection to such a blog in the specifically relevant power's being discussed here), while this does seem to hold up for the CT at least following the logic, this very blog does not mention the Lake Trio as being Alter Ego's, and in fact, it even seems to state otherwise- "However the original intent was to show that the Creation Trio are Arceus' avatars, while the Lake Trio are not. They have their own wills and aren't just following what Arceus says to do, as avatars do."

Even though they specifically originate from One "Heart", it is heavily specified and implied throughout relevant sections that The Existence of The Lake Trio are far different from the "Bunshin", or Alter Ego's, of Arceus, those being the Creation Trio. Even ignoring how you concede to the Creation Trio having their own thought's with the text seemingly implying otherwise in this section, the matter of fact is, the blog purposefully makes a distinction that the Lake Trio are a different sort of set of Existences compared to the Creation Trio, and specifically avoids dubbing them as Alter Ego's. As such, it seems to me with this information that using Uxie as a way to measure Arceus's Knowledge is invalid, and that the idea that The Lake Trio are simply facets of Arceus's existence is not implied in the blog, but in fact is avoided and specified to not exactly be the case.
Arceus created them from himself, theyre not alter egos, but they're still parts of Arceus he released from himself to the world. They're not smarter than the God who brought them into existence as parts of himself. Which is why the director of the movie mentioned that the Original Setting of Arceus is that of an Omnipotent and Omniscient being, resorting to pis and cis to make the movie possible
 
Because the books themselves hold information about the lore. Thef Lake Trio exists with humans

They literally go to it for information/knowledge as it embodies that aspect itself..

This isn't nitpicking. You're simply refusing to accept it
How am I refusing to accept it? I know it has dominion over Knowledge. I'm simply saying that there's likely a scan with more concrete wording, and suggesting you use that over the scan that only suggests rather than confirms it. You are completely misinterpreting what I am saying.


No. That was in reference to Uxie
Respectfully, I believe I would understand what I am saying better than you would. When I said "Also, DT makes great points in the argument linked by the OP about examples of Characters who create Knowledge =/= Knowing all.", I was referring to Arceus, having created Uxie. You, in turn, said
He's the concept of knowledge, he has Dominion over it.

He's not creating ahything, he's It
This would ring true for Uxie, but I was talking about Arceus. I then went to elaborate on who I was talking about in reference to the message about DT's arguments. You then told me who I was supposedly talking about, when I was speaking specifically about Arceus having created Uxie, and thus having created Knowledge.


Yes, they did not wake up one day and decide to write fanfiction here. Lore was gotten from information received from worshipping these gods. And yes, the lake trio are directly connected to humans as mentioned Uxie embodies knowledge itself, people go to it for information/knowledge, which certainly supports the records suggesting it holds dominion over the concept he embodies.
Still. Human error is a thing that is certainly possible. Can we truly blindly trust a nameless book without a evident author simply because generally people worshipped these god's? I think that's a stretch in logic, even if most people in verse were very religious.


Arceus created them from himself, theyre not alter egos, but they're still parts of Arceus he released from himself to the world. They're not smarter than the God who brought them into existence as parts of himself. Which is why the director of the movie mentioned that the Original Setting of Arceus is that of an Omnipotent and Omniscient being, resorting to pis and cis to make the movie possible
I don't see what you gain from bringing up that movie again. Are you just that salty at the plot?
Regardless
Just because you originated from something else does not mean you can exceed that very thing. That is fallacious reasoning. Since they are not Alter Ego's in the same Vein as the CT, unlike the CT, there is little to suggest that everything about them should directly go into Arceus. Think of it like this: Let's say Entity A has 140 IQ. Entity A then rip's off a chunk of their body, and forms it into Entity B. It is not impossible for Entity B to have 150 IQ. However, there is no reason Entity A would gain that additional 10 IQ. Since Entity B is not a direct Aspect, or Alter Ego, or "Bunshin" of Entity A, they should not feed into the capabilities of Entity A. They may have originated from a piece of Entity A, but Entity B is no longer just a piece of Entity B. There is no reason for The Lake Trio to still be considered a Part Of Arceus or It's greater Capabilities after they are split from it, assuming I have not missed any evidence in this rather lengthy Blog that does point to The Trio still being part of Arceus and it's Capabilities.
 
How am I refusing to accept it? I know it has dominion over Knowledge. I'm simply saying that there's likely a scan with more concrete wording, and suggesting you use that over the scan that only suggests rather than confirms it. You are completely misinterpreting what I am saying.
Again. All the scans lead up to supporting that one claim.

Saying "it's random" does not discredit its existence
Respectfully, I believe I would understand what I am saying better than you would. When I said "Also, DT makes great points in the argument linked by the OP about examples of Characters who create Knowledge =/= Knowing all.", I was referring to Arceus, having created Uxie. You, in turn, said
Good. He's knowledge itself. He's not just creating knowledge. He's the embodiement of knowledge. Of which records say he holds dominion over it. Not equivalent
This would ring true for Uxie, but I was talking about Arceus. I then went to elaborate on who I was talking about in reference to the message about DT's arguments. You then told me who I was supposedly talking about, when I was speaking specifically about Arceus having created Uxie, and thus having created Knowledge.
Still. Human error is a thing that is certainly possible. Can we truly blindly trust a nameless book without a evident author simply because generally people worshipped these god's? I think that's a stretch in logic, even if most people in verse were very religious.
What do you mean by a "nameless" book.

And why should it having a name be required for its validity. How is that even remotely relevant here at all.

There's not a single book in Pokémon that has a name

I guess all of them are random and should be downgraded when the Legendaries themselves confirm their role/status within it.

Records to suggest it holds dominion. Ahh yes, the concept of knowledge holds dominion over it. Water is always wet and the sky is blue.

You said you read the blog, and I'm questioning that claim as I type this.
I don't see what you gain from bringing up that movie again. Are you just that salty at the plot?
I'll request you refrain from making comments as this.
Regardless
Just because you originated from something else does not mean you can exceed that very thing. That is fallacious reasoning. Since they are not Alter Ego's in the same Vein as the CT, unlike the CT, there is little to suggest that everything about them should directly go into Arceus. Think of it like this: Let's say Entity A has 140 IQ. Entity A then rip's off a chunk of their body, and forms it into Entity B. It is not impossible for Entity B to have 150 IQ. However, there is no reason Entity A would gain that additional 10 IQ. Since Entity B is not a direct Aspect, or Alter Ego, or "Bunshin" of Entity A, they should not feed into the capabilities of Entity A. They may have originated from a piece of Entity A, but Entity B is no longer just a piece of Entity B. There is no reason for The Lake Trio to still be considered a Part Of Arceus or It's greater Capabilities after they are split from it, assuming I have not missed any evidence in this rather lengthy Blog that does point to The Trio still being part of Arceus and it's Capabilities.
Good. Arceus is Omniscient as mention by wog. Support?

He emanated Uxie(Knowledge) into existence. It's a part of him.Arceus is the physical manifestation of the being who is everything, everywhere and beyond. Arceus's watches over all creation.
 
Again. All the scans lead up to supporting that one claim.

Saying "it's random" does not discredit its existence

Good. He's knowledge itself. He's not just creating knowledge. He's the embodiement of knowledge. Of which records say he holds dominion over it. Not equivalent

What do you mean by a "nameless" book.

And why should it having a name be required for its validity. How is that even remotely relevant here at all.

There's not a single book in Pokémon that has a name

I guess all of them are random and should be downgraded when the Legendaries themselves confirm their role/status within it.

Records to suggest it holds dominion. Ahh yes, the concept of knowledge holds dominion over it. Water is always wet and the sky is blue.

You said you read the blog, and I'm questioning that claim as I type this.

I'll request you refrain from making comments as this.

Good. Arceus is Omniscient as mention by wog. Support?

He emanated Uxie(Knowledge) into existence. It's a part of him.Arceus is the physical manifestation of the being who is everything, everywhere and beyond. Arceus's watches over all creation.
I'm kinda curious as why Uxie doesn't have Omnicence if Arceus is
 
It depends on how you want to see Arceus, whether he's a puppet of the OS, or he's his own thing that exists independently of the OS control
 
... You are, quite clearly at this point, jumbling up several points. So, allow me to lay it flat for you.

In regards to the Pokedex Statement Specifically
I believe you could pull up a better statement for Uxie's Dominion over knowledge that is more concrete. This does not have anything to do with any of the other parts of this argument. I'm simply saying that there is likely a piece of evidence somewhere that say's what this Pokedex entry say's, but with better wording. I certainly know that Uxie hold's dominion over Knowledge, I just think that the Scan presented here is poorly worded and can be debunked on it's own. Maybe try looking for other Pokedex entries that say it more clearly?

In regards to DT's Statement
I am simply saying I agree with the fact that just because Arceus created Uxie does not mean that Arceus would inherently be more knowledgeable than Uxie. Any argument for that would need more than just that. That is all that I meant when I said what I said there, not that Uxie is not the concept of Knowledge or that it created Knowledge or anything like that.

In regards to the Book that is currently used on Arceus's Page as Justification for the Various Legendaries being Aspects of it
It is a book that is random, and brings up a heavily controversial Idea. I am saying that using the book alone as the justification on the page is shaky. If there is supporting evidence outside of the book, that makes more sense, and I admit that there is. I am simply saying that the present evidence on the Arceus page should really be evidently not sufficient. My apologies if suggesting that Unnamed Books whom we don't know the Author's of in lore are not good enough evidence on their own for a profile is a seemingly illogical notion.

In Regards to you questioning if I read the blog or not
Of course I have. You may question it all you want, but I haven't shown any signs that would suggest I am blatantly ignoring the Relevant Sections, which would be the one's in regards to the relation of The Legendaries in Question and Arceus. Thus far, all I have said is:

1, The scan used for Uxie could be better
2, DT said something I agree with in regards to how Creating a Concept works
3, The Book alone is very poor evidence and is for some reason the only given evidence on Arceus's Page for having Uxie be a aspect of it
4, That I don't think The Lake Trio's Abilities should inherently go to Arceus.

In Regards to your request
Fair enough, perhaps I was a bit insensitive with my line of questioning.

In Regards to Uxie being Part of Arceus
It is specified Uxie was made from a Piece of Arceus. This is true. Is it specified that Uxie, to this day, remains as being considered a direct piece of Arceus by lore? Because something that is made from something else can become it's own thing, like my example showed. I have not seen evidence from the blog or yourself to suggest that, after creation, the Lake Trio are still Part of Arceus. Your only argument thus far is the fact that they were originally made from a Piece of him, but that does not mean they will always be considered part of him. I believe more evidence needs to be presented for this to be seen as a substantial possibility.

None of My Sections, which I have separated via Bolded Headings, have anything to do with one another.

For instance, My argument about The Random Book is not me talking about Uxie's status as holding control about Knowledge. Those two things have 0 to do with one another. Please try to not mix them up again.

I apologize if it feels like I am treating you like a child, but it appears you became confused somehow during this, and I felt the need to clarify what is and isn't being said.
 
I was going to respond to each of it, but I don't think it's important

The Original setting of Arceus is a being who is omnipotent and omniscient. Which is supported by him having created the concept of knowledge and transcending all existence.

Do you have anything to say about this? Because this is a clear cut statement that has 0 room for interpretation
 
I was going to respond to each of it, but I don't think it's important

The Original setting of Arceus is a being who is omnipotent and omniscient. Which is supported by him having created the concept of knowledge and transcending all existence.

Do you have anything to say about this? Because this is a clear cut statement that has 0 room for interpretation
Considering the primary source you use is the same person who supposedly used PIS and CIS to make Arceus become utterly helpless, I'm not sure I need to say much. Is there anyone else who has confirmed this idea that Arceus is Omniscient other than the person who also made it need Ash to remind it of the Jewl? I'm just saying, PIS or not, you're sort of beginning to cherry pick here. Not to offend the Movie Director, but especially when it's a case like this where multiple forms of media affects this Character, I believe that something more concrete is ideal compared to what has been presented thus far.
 
Considering the primary source you use is the same person who supposedly used PIS and CIS to make Arceus become utterly helpless, I'm not sure I need to say much. Is there anyone else who has confirmed this idea that Arceus is Omniscient other than the person who also made it need Ash to remind it of the Jewl? I'm just saying, PIS or not, you're sort of beginning to cherry pick here. Not to offend the Movie Director, but especially when it's a case like this where multiple forms of media affects this Character, I believe that something more concrete is ideal compared to what has been presented thus far.

The Original setting of Arceus is that of an omnipotent and omniscient being.
That the status of Arceus being omnipotent and omniscient is the blueprint for any usage of the character in any media.

The director asked himself one question. How do we deal with Arceus being Omnipotent and Omniscient?

And his answer? To make him incomplete, with missing plates. And the movie was full of pis and cis in order to make the movie happen

監督である湯山邦彦氏からは「世界を作った全知全能の存在というイメージ、設定がある」と語られており、物語に登場させるにあたってはそのスケールに苦慮したというエピソードがある。

そのイメージを表現する一環として声優に美輪明宏氏を当てるという采配は絶大なインパクトがあったようで、氏の好演も相まってかこの映画の公開以降アルセウスの形容として「美輪明宏」「ミワセウス」という呼称が広まった。



公式サイトで公開された設定では「今までのどんなポケモンよりも強大」とされ、湯山監督によると本来の設定では強すぎてシナリオが成り立たないことから、プレートの欠けた不完全な状態にすることでドラマを作り出す、タイムスリップの流れを盛り込み問題解決の説得力を持たせるなどの手法が採られたという。

Kunihiko Yuyama, the director of the film, said, "There is an image and setting of an omniscient and omnipotent being who created the world," and there is an episode in which he struggled with the scale of this image when introducing it into the story.
As part of his efforts to express this image, he chose Akihiro Miwa as the voice actor, which had a tremendous impact, and his excellent performance, coupled with the release of the film, led to the widespread use of the term "Akihiro Miwa" or "Miwaseus" as a description of Arceus.

According to director Yuyama, Arceus was too powerful for the scenario to work in its original setting, so he decided to create drama by making it incomplete with missing plates, and to make it more convincing by including a time-slip sequence to solve the problem.
 
First, the Arceus movie barely hangs onto it's status of being canon by a string, we all know of the meteorite and the electric attacks and the silver water, but the fact of the fact that besides Arceus been affected by things far from it's cosmic levels of powers, even the plates have been pretty much retconned.

As not only does the general canon seem to be that multiple such plates lie about with how often they are found. Arceus is never in any urgeny of finding them and seems to more use them as a way to call to it (though it doesn't have to answer). But even in the anime itself, the plates that were used to create the Jewel of Life were also located in other places at the time the jewel was missing. That being the Draco and Spalsh Plates being a plot point in an anime episode that took place earlier than the movie should, as well as the power of the Splash Plate being used to seal Hoopa

Also besides just being omnipresent across time and space (and beyond) allowing it to see everything, it also has precognition from an ability that was translated as Omnipotence but whose actual names is:
ぜんちぜんのう Omniscience and Omnipotence.
 
Agree for Avatars.

I really don’t like this special treatment Arceus gets where showings get dismissed because it doesn’t match up with lore.
Because the lore comes from the mainline games which are primary canon. While the anime and manga are secondary canon.

The true form of Arceus uses the avatars to see and walk the world as everyone else does, theirs no difference between the avatar and true form's mind or intelligence as confirmed by Pokémon Legends: Arceus which is primary canon.
 
The true form of Arceus uses the avatars to see and walk the world as everyone else does, theirs no difference between the avatar and true form's mind or intelligence as confirmed by Pokémon Legends: Arceus which is primary canon.
Yet Arceus has been shown to be very limited in both the movies and the manga.

You can’t have it both ways.
 
Yet Arceus has been shown to be very limited in both the movies and the manga.

You can’t have it both ways.
You do know how primary and secondary canon works on the site. Anything the primary canon states or shows is treated as fact, anything secondary canon states and shows that doesn't contradict the primary canon is then added.

When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon.
- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Canon
 
Back
Top